Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Whats missing?

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All

flyangel2

Jul 23, 2012, 10:30 AM
Post #26 of 100 (1732 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Divalent] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know, but is that guy behind him in the plane holding a machine gun? Shocked

Skydive Perris does a lot of training for the military. The guy in the background is one of those people. The training includes jumping with all the equipment that will be needed when doing a real military jump.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 23, 2012, 10:39 AM
Post #27 of 100 (1721 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Its pretty accepted in risk theory that exposure time to risk is a relevant factor to
>consider when making decisions.

True. Come to think of it, we could take the reserves out of the rigs we use for first time jumpers. Lower exposure time = less risk, and let's face it, those mains are pretty reliable. (And wouldn't it be nice to not have to teach, or worry about, a main/reserve entanglement?)

If they continue in the sport, we could give em a rig with a reserve, since the odds of them having a mal go up.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 23, 2012, 11:12 AM
Post #28 of 100 (1699 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So to paraphrase you in another thread:

"Why would you want your hobby to be a ticking time bomb (sooner or later kind of thing)."

Are you going to heed your own advise or not. It makes absolutely no sense on any jump. Fine it is one of the names in the sport, but what kind of example is that setting to those who are up and coming?
whatcha talkin bout willis???

I am just disagreeing with NWflyer and pointing out her lack of reasonable thinking because it is so fun to disagree with somebody who will no matter what you say disagree with you.

If you are going to go against NWflyer on "reasonable thinking" I'll take NWflyer and give you 10 points. Cool

Sparky


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jul 23, 2012, 11:14 AM
Post #29 of 100 (1698 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mjosparky] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
So to paraphrase you in another thread:

"Why would you want your hobby to be a ticking time bomb (sooner or later kind of thing)."

Are you going to heed your own advise or not. It makes absolutely no sense on any jump. Fine it is one of the names in the sport, but what kind of example is that setting to those who are up and coming?
whatcha talkin bout willis???

I am just disagreeing with NWflyer and pointing out her lack of reasonable thinking because it is so fun to disagree with somebody who will no matter what you say disagree with you.

If you are going to go against NWflyer on "reasonable thinking" I'll take NWflyer and give you 10 points. Cool

Sparky

I will join ya on that bet!

Beer and popcorn?

Matt


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 23, 2012, 11:17 AM
Post #30 of 100 (1697 views)
Shortcut
Re: [matthewcline] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
So to paraphrase you in another thread:

"Why would you want your hobby to be a ticking time bomb (sooner or later kind of thing)."

Are you going to heed your own advise or not. It makes absolutely no sense on any jump. Fine it is one of the names in the sport, but what kind of example is that setting to those who are up and coming?
whatcha talkin bout willis???

I am just disagreeing with NWflyer and pointing out her lack of reasonable thinking because it is so fun to disagree with somebody who will no matter what you say disagree with you.

If you are going to go against NWflyer on "reasonable thinking" I'll take NWflyer and give you 10 points. Cool

Sparky

I will join ya on that bet!

Beer Gray Goose and popcorn?

Matt

FIFY

Sparky


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jul 23, 2012, 11:32 AM
Post #31 of 100 (1684 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mjosparky] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
So to paraphrase you in another thread:

"Why would you want your hobby to be a ticking time bomb (sooner or later kind of thing)."

Are you going to heed your own advise or not. It makes absolutely no sense on any jump. Fine it is one of the names in the sport, but what kind of example is that setting to those who are up and coming?
whatcha talkin bout willis???

I am just disagreeing with NWflyer and pointing out her lack of reasonable thinking because it is so fun to disagree with somebody who will no matter what you say disagree with you.

If you are going to go against NWflyer on "reasonable thinking" I'll take NWflyer and give you 10 points. Cool

Sparky

I will join ya on that bet!

Beer Gray Goose and popcorn?

Matt

FIFY

Sparky

Seems reasonable.

Matt


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Jul 23, 2012, 11:35 AM
Post #32 of 100 (1680 views)
Shortcut
Re: [matthewcline] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Seems reasonable.

Matt

There you guys go being reasonable again. WinkTongue


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 23, 2012, 11:36 AM
Post #33 of 100 (1676 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post


And?
This is the original factory mod to the suit, and how the handles worked in that mod. Perhaps doing away with access altogether is the thought in the instance shown in the OP's question.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 23, 2012, 11:51 AM
Post #34 of 100 (1666 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

And?

This is the original factory mod to the suit, and how the handles worked in that mod. Perhaps doing away with access altogether is the thought in the instance shown in the OP's question.
Just curious, not a wingsuiter or anything. How hard would it be to get to the handles under the zippers (unzip the wing)?

What effect would this have on the wing in flight?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 23, 2012, 12:08 PM
Post #35 of 100 (1654 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Imagine yourself spinning violently after a problematic deployment. Maybe you're even a bad-ass and you've taken it to 2K before deploying. Rather than gripping a handle that you're familiar with, you have to find the zipper tab and pull it fairly well down, then reach inside a potentially tensioned suit with a definitely pressurized wing, and find a cutaway handle. Maybe you have an RSL or Skyhook, maybe you don't. Without those, you're going to need to unzip the other zipper too, and gain access to the reserve ripcord.
All while experiencing an increase in rotational speed.
It has worked in the past.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jul 23, 2012, 12:21 PM
Post #36 of 100 (1641 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Imagine yourself spinning violently after a problematic deployment. Maybe you're even a bad-ass and you've taken it to 2K before deploying. Rather than gripping a handle that you're familiar with, you have to find the zipper tab and pull it fairly well down, then reach inside a potentially tensioned suit with a definitely pressurized wing, and find a cutaway handle. Maybe you have an RSL or Skyhook, maybe you don't. Without those, you're going to need to unzip the other zipper too, and gain access to the reserve ripcord.
All while experiencing an increase in rotational speed.
It has worked in the past.

Who was that bad ass?Shocked

Matt


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 23, 2012, 12:31 PM
Post #37 of 100 (1633 views)
Shortcut
Re: [matthewcline] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

knowing how skydivers and basejumpers use and cross use their gear - especially the expensive bits.....I'm a bit surprised that a wing suit is offered that would have no access in the design. A warning label on usage does not equal safety, only very thin legal coverage.

Tell you what though. I'll leave that question to the wingsuiters and the builders. It's not my area.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 23, 2012, 12:32 PM)


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Jul 23, 2012, 12:37 PM
Post #38 of 100 (1625 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PhreeZone] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Looks like someone is counting on his main opening with out issue...

Or on 10K boxes.Angelic


5.samadhi

Jul 23, 2012, 1:37 PM
Post #39 of 100 (1588 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Baksteen] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Looks like someone is counting on his main opening with out issue...

Or on 10K boxes.Angelic
no Jeb has already said that he never wanted to do what Gary did, he always wanted to land at "wingsuit terminal"

Laugh


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 23, 2012, 1:59 PM
Post #40 of 100 (1574 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

And?

This is the original factory mod to the suit, and how the handles worked in that mod. Perhaps doing away with access altogether is the thought in the instance shown in the OP's question.
Or perhaps the designer should re-think the mod entirely. Fixing a bad design with a bad idea is...well...bad.


JohnRich  (D License)

Jul 23, 2012, 4:26 PM
Post #41 of 100 (1528 views)
Shortcut
Re: [f1freak] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Whats missing in these photos? Angelic

In addtion to the things already mentioned, there is some gun safety missing - that gun barrel held by the guy on the left is pointed right at the head of the guy on the right. Doh!


piisfish

Jul 24, 2012, 12:23 AM
Post #42 of 100 (1457 views)
Shortcut
Re: [matthewcline] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It has worked in the past.

Who was that bad ass?Shockedat least the same that is on the original picture


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 24, 2012, 12:55 AM
Post #43 of 100 (1448 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Looks like someone is counting on his main opening with out issue...

Or on 10K boxes.Angelic
no Jeb has already said that he never wanted to do what Gary did, he always wanted to land at "wingsuit terminal"

Laugh

That is exactly what Gary did..land a wing suit at terminal. Anything Jeb does now will second best..and second is first loser.

Sparky


smoothflyin  (D 32423)

Jul 24, 2012, 6:06 AM
Post #44 of 100 (1401 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

And?

This is the original factory mod to the suit, and how the handles worked in that mod. Perhaps doing away with access altogether is the thought in the instance shown in the OP's question.

Or perhaps the designer should re-think the mod entirely. Fixing a bad design with a bad idea is...well...bad.

With the tests done by DSE out in Socal, it seems that the safest option on this suit may be to not have the factory mod installed if using it for skydiving. The pull forces that were measured in those tests would more than likely require the mod handles to be abandoned and the suit to be unzipped anyway so that the normal handles could be pulled. If you are going to have to unzip it anyway, may as well get rid of the extra material and rapide links that would be in the way.

Not saying it is a good idea to jump the suit with skydiving gear (at least until an acceptable solution is in place) but if you are going to jump it, this would almost seem like the safer option...What do you think DSE?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 24, 2012, 6:29 AM
Post #45 of 100 (1392 views)
Shortcut
Re: [smoothflyin] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

And?

This is the original factory mod to the suit, and how the handles worked in that mod. Perhaps doing away with access altogether is the thought in the instance shown in the OP's question.

Or perhaps the designer should re-think the mod entirely. Fixing a bad design with a bad idea is...well...bad.


With the tests done by DSE out in Socal, it seems that the safest option on this suit may be to not have the factory mod installed if using it for skydiving. The pull forces that were measured in those tests would more than likely require the mod handles to be abandoned and the suit to be unzipped anyway so that the normal handles could be pulled. If you are going to have to unzip it anyway, may as well get rid of the extra material and rapide links that would be in the way.

Not saying it is a good idea to jump the suit with skydiving gear (at least until an acceptable solution is in place) but if you are going to jump it, this would almost seem like the safer option...What do you think DSE?
Actually the safest option would be to only jump suits that work properly for the application.


smoothflyin  (D 32423)

Jul 24, 2012, 8:59 AM
Post #46 of 100 (1357 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Actually the safest option would be to only jump suits that work properly for the application.

Oh I agree, but if they ARE going to fly the suit anyway, would this not be the safest option?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 24, 2012, 9:25 AM
Post #47 of 100 (1342 views)
Shortcut
Re: [smoothflyin] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

The safest option would be to not screw with the manufacturer's TSO by hiding the handles. TSO is there for a reason, and will be one of the first things looked at by the FAA.
Read pages 12/13 of AD105-2D

FAA: Where are the cutaway and reserve handles installed by the manufacturer?
DZO: This is a special circumstance where we allow people to use a system that doesn't permit access to handles in a standard method.
FAA: Uhh, why?


smoothflyin  (D 32423)

Jul 24, 2012, 9:43 AM
Post #48 of 100 (1334 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The safest option would be to not screw with the manufacturer's TSO by hiding the handles.


Yes....I agree...


But.........


Let's assume (just for the sake of discussion) for a moment that people are going to fly these suits with skydiving gear, would this not be safer than having the modded handles?

(edited to sound less "snarky")


(This post was edited by smoothflyin on Jul 24, 2012, 9:45 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 24, 2012, 11:01 AM
Post #49 of 100 (1302 views)
Shortcut
Re: [smoothflyin] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The safest option would be to not screw with the manufacturer's TSO by hiding the handles.


Yes....I agree...


But.........


Let's assume (just for the sake of discussion) for a moment that people are going to fly these suits with skydiving gear, would this not be safer than having the modded handles?

(edited to sound less "snarky")

Using a system where one has to unzip the suit under stressful conditions, or using a loop that may or may not deploy if it's not pulled at the correct angle?
I can't judge one better than the other if that's the answer you're pushing for.

Both are violations of FARs.
Both are violations of the rig manufacturer TSO.
Both are significantly greater risk for the jumper.
Both could cause insurance companies to say "Sorry, not in legal compliance," therefore they won't pay out.
Both open up the DZ and WS manufacturer to greater exposure in a lawsuit. The manufacturer is well aware of the problem with the loops, and has issued a statement telling people to not use them.
Allowing either system to exit an aircraft demonstrates poor decision-making on the part of an S&TA or DZO, in my opinion.

There are handle mods for this one particular wingsuit that are in compliance with manufacturer TSO; they're just not "cool" looking, even if they are perfectly functional.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 24, 2012, 3:45 PM
Post #50 of 100 (1231 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Whats missing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Both are violations of the rig manufacturer TSO.

I can see that you don't like the situation, and there are plenty of reasons for that, but why would it technically be a violation of any TSO?
Wouldn't it be the same if I jumped with my handles duct taped to my rig? Nothing to do with the rig TSO, just not very smart?

Maybe an FAA violation if one argued that in functional terms, I was no longer jumping a 2-canopy rig (but I'd have to check the wording to be sure)?


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)