Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid

 

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theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 24, 2012, 9:38 PM
Post #126 of 150 (1355 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I would say I "fear [the] reserve" in some way. Never thought of it like that. But it's a natural instinct to not want to use your "last hope".

"When in doubt, whip it out" Wink


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 24, 2012, 10:00 PM
Post #127 of 150 (1345 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Obelixtim,

Going through 1,000 Ft, I might think about a canopy transfer....thoughts? 1000 ft is getting fairly low....

A canopy transfer with a ram air reserve is never a good idea.

Sparky


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 24, 2012, 10:17 PM
Post #128 of 150 (1338 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Obelixtim,

Going through 1,000 Ft, I might think about a canopy transfer....thoughts? 1000 ft is getting fairly low....

A canopy transfer with a ram air reserve is never a good idea.

Sparky

Who rocks the round reserves and does these said "Canopy transfers" any more. Sounds completely insane to try on a square.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 24, 2012, 10:25 PM
Post #129 of 150 (1335 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

There are a few discussions on canopy transfers when I did a search: http://www.dropzone.com/...y%20transfer;#603887

Agreed, 1000 ft is probably not the right place for that, but at some point, it may be the only option. Not a good option, but the only one.

I've been convinced cutting away at 1000 feet is probably fine...but I hope I'm never in that position, or I've messed up elsewhere along the way...and violated some of my own rules. Its good to be ready for the unexpected though.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 25, 2012, 1:25 AM
Post #130 of 150 (1296 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


Every skydiver needs to put thought into their drills for different scenarios, and always be ready for the unexpected. It amazes me that some people fear their reserve.

I would say I "fear [the] reserve" in some way. Never thought of it like that. But it's a natural instinct to not want to use your "last hope".
Thats where your training and discipline need to kick in, to overcome that "natural instinct". In skydiving if you don`t trust your reserve you should not be getting in the plane. Instead of "last hope", you should be thinking "best and first option".

Pretty silly to be dead on the DZ with a fully packed and servicable reserve on your back.

And as I already said, the reasons for the cutaway in the OP are basically irrelevant.....90% of mals are prolly preventable and are due to carelessness.

Humans make mistakes. In this case the jumper did made a small error, but in this sport a small error can kill you.

The subsequent decision and cutaway, though, were performed flawlessly.

I would give him praise for his actions, carrying out his EPīs, rather can calling him "stupid", for an error easily made.

I bet he doesnīt make that mistake again......and at least he is fit, healthy, and able to carry on jumping.

Its not always the case.......


JackC1

Jul 25, 2012, 1:48 AM
Post #131 of 150 (1288 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And as I already said, the reasons for the cutaway in the OP are basically irrelevant.....90% of mals are prolly preventable and are due to carelessness.

The reasons for the mal are very relevant. To fail to avoid an avoidable mal is basically stupid. The fact that he chopped is totally unremarkable.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 25, 2012, 2:17 AM
Post #132 of 150 (1281 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
And as I already said, the reasons for the cutaway in the OP are basically irrelevant.....90% of mals are prolly preventable and are due to carelessness.

The reasons for the mal are very relevant. To fail to avoid an avoidable mal is basically stupid. The fact that he chopped is totally unremarkable.

My point was specifically tailored to the context that the OPīs proposition that the cutaway was "very dangerous", and doing so at 1000 feet is somehow stupid...

In fact it was neither stupid or dangerous, and in general terms, executing your EPīs properly at 1000 feet will save your life.

In that context, the reasons for the cutaway ARE irrelevant. The jumper can argue that point with his packer over a beer. That he is in a position to do so is largely due to the correct decision making and use of his EPīs.

And THAT is the important lesson to be learned from this video.....


JackC1

Jul 25, 2012, 2:29 AM
Post #133 of 150 (1274 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In fact it was neither stupid or dangerous, and in general terms, executing your EPīs properly at 1000 feet will probably save your life.

FIFY. Reserves mal too.

In reply to:
In that context, the reasons for the cutaway ARE irrelevant. The jumper can argue that point with his packer over a beer. That he is in a position to do so is largely due to the correct decision making and use of his EPīs.

And THAT is the important lesson to be learned from this video.....

I'd say the real lesson from this video is not that you can chop at 1000ft and be fine but that paying attention when you pop your brakes might mean you wont have to.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 25, 2012, 3:06 AM
Post #134 of 150 (1261 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
FIFY. Reserves mal too.

Jumping since 1974, rigger since 1979, I have packed thousands of reserves, and have seen a few hundred used. Used a few myself.

I`ve never seen one mal when correct EPīs have been carried out.

A reserve mal is so rare I consider it an infintesimal risk. If that factor influences someone to hesitate to use their reserve, then my advice to them is to step away from skydiving....permanently.

Always trust your reserve...itīll do its job if used correctly. History proves that.

Of more concern is the human using it....because that is where the complications arise...


JackC1

Jul 25, 2012, 3:49 AM
Post #135 of 150 (1244 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Then you've been lucky. I have seen a reserve mal that ended in a life flight. Luckily the injuries weren't severe.

I'd say that anyone who doesn't take preventable mals seriously because they think their reserve is bullet proof, should probably reconsider their participation in this sport.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 25, 2012, 5:12 AM
Post #136 of 150 (1219 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Then you've been lucky. I have seen a reserve mal that ended in a life flight. Luckily the injuries weren't severe.

Out of interest, was that a deployment into clean air, with a stable body position?. I.e, Were there other factors that affected the deployment.

In reply to:
I'd say that anyone who doesn't take preventable mals seriously because they think their reserve is bullet proof, should probably reconsider their participation in this sport.

I agree.....remove that link from the chain and your chances of survival go up dramatically.

There is no excuse for sloppiness.


JackC1

Jul 25, 2012, 6:05 AM
Post #137 of 150 (1196 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Out of interest, was that a deployment into clean air, with a stable body position?. I.e, Were there other factors that affected the deployment.

The deployment was clean and stable. The problem was a stuck toggle resulting in the need for a rear riser landing. The canopy stalled and collapsed. Basically the same problem (although different cause) that the guy in the video cut away from.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 25, 2012, 10:25 AM
Post #138 of 150 (1149 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 A stuck toggle?.

That sounds like a rigging error. Did the jumper not carry a hook knife?. Again the human factor comes into play. I would not blame the reserve for that, if it did its first job and opened cleanly, thus stopping the FF.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 25, 2012, 10:37 AM
Post #139 of 150 (1139 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A stuck toggle?.

That sounds like a rigging error. Did the jumper not carry a hook knife?. Again the human factor comes into play. I would not blame the reserve for that, if it did its first job and opened cleanly, thus stopping the FF.

That would bring us back to the argument (not mine) that you should fear your reserve? Skydiving is not an exact science! The reserve is there to save your life. Use it when you need it. Don't create situations for its use!Wink


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 25, 2012, 10:53 AM
Post #140 of 150 (1122 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
A stuck toggle?.

That sounds like a rigging error. Did the jumper not carry a hook knife?. Again the human factor comes into play. I would not blame the reserve for that, if it did its first job and opened cleanly, thus stopping the FF.

That would bring us back to the argument (not mine) that you should fear your reserve? Skydiving is not an exact science! The reserve is there to save your life. Use it when you need it. Don't create situations for its use!Wink

I still wouldnīt fear the reserve...in that case it sounds like it opened correctly and saved the jumpers life. If one toggle then hung up when the jumper released the brakes, that is a rigging error. The reserve didnīt malfunction.

In that case the only fear would be on the part of the rigger, his fear of my boot contacting his sorry arse.

Nowhere am I condoning sloppy packing or anything like that (creating reasons for its use)..... I have little tolerance for carelessness on the DZ.

My point is simply that if you are in a situation where you are not sure you can land your main canopy safely due to a problem with it, the best and safest option is to cutaway and use your reserve.

It always has been and always will be.

If anyone really has a fear of using their reserve, they should really give serious consideration as to whether skydiving is really the right sport for them.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 25, 2012, 11:36 AM
Post #141 of 150 (1101 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

>That would bring us back to the argument (not mine) that you should fear your reserve?

You should know that it can malfunction just as your main can. You don't need to fear it, but you do need to weigh the risks.


elias123  (D 108)

Jul 26, 2012, 4:04 AM
Post #142 of 150 (1024 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Might you be referring to Sangi?


skydivecat  (C License)

Aug 15, 2012, 6:37 AM
Post #143 of 150 (857 views)
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Re: [elias123] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi All!

Just wanted to share a recent experience. I am a newer jumper, in the sport just a year now. Besides the bonfire, I don't really post all that much. Mostly just lurk, read, think, and ask my instructors their opinions.

This past sunday, I had my first chop and it was very similar to this. I read this thread most of the way through as it was happening, thought about the different options (landing on rears, wrapping my right brake to compensate, ect.) and also asked opinions from the guys at my home dz.

So there I was, open a little lower than normal for me (was in a five way and had to track further for clear air space, someone was closer than I like), but under a good canopy between 2500-2000ft. When I went to unstow my brakes to do my controlability check, right one pops, left one won't budge. Yank on it a few times, reach up to see if I can figure out what is stuck (which causes me to start spiralling as I am not braking on my right anymore), and at this point I immediatley decided to chop.

I was at my decision altitude, I wasn't comfortable I could safely land the canopy I had, this situation was something I had considered from reading this thread, no hesistation, chopped, under reserve by 1500-1200ft. Landed uneventfully on the dz, free bag 40 yards away, main recovered, even found the handle that i threw Smile.

A lot of people with more experience may argue that they would have done things differently, but at the end of the day, chopping was the right decision for me in this situation. My instructors agreed, and as we enjoyed the case of beer i bought, we talked about it. There are def things i could have done better/differently, but I learned from it, and was prepared for this situation due to seeing/reading about someone else's experiences on here. I made my decision and didn't hesistate to react.

Examination of my main did not reveal what caused the left toggle to be stuck. It was still stowed when recovered, but not "locked" by anything or misrouted.

I guess my point is, I just wanted to thank everyone for their thoughts and posts on here. Reading thru the different situations and hearing opinions on how to react can def help us newer jumpers. I ALWAYS ask my instructors at my dz their opinions, but many of the conversations and questions I have asked have come from something I saw or read on here.

Blue skies everyone! Can't wait to get back in the air this weekend!


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 15, 2012, 6:53 AM
Post #144 of 150 (844 views)
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Re: [skydivecat] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

nice job. Just wondering though, why would you allow a spin to happen while your trying to see what is wrong? All your doing is losing altitude and working time at that point, after all had you not allowed the spin to go on, you pretty much had a open canopy.

Not faulting your actions, just wondering.

Based on your account, (I've been there done that) I would have not let go of the right toggle and would have kept it flying forward while I looked it over, might have even just re-stowed the right toggle. (my decision altitude is most likely much lower then yours though)


(This post was edited by stratostar on Aug 15, 2012, 6:54 AM)


skydivecat  (C License)

Aug 15, 2012, 7:48 AM
Post #145 of 150 (815 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Trying to react to fixing the problem before thinking about the effect of releasing the other toggle would have lol. I was so focused on trying to see/fix the left side, I didn't even consider that I needed to keep applying brakes to my right to keep myself flying straight and level.

One of the things that we talked about that I could/should have handled differently. If I had kept braking or restowed the right side, I may have had more time to look at/try to fix the problem and not had to cut. As I started spiraling, I was thinking, "nice job dummy, you needed that not to start spinning". By allowing the spin to start though, and the loss of altitude that occured, it put me at my decision alti.

Had I been higher, I immediatley would have grabbed my right toggle to stop and reassessed. Good case of think about the reaction before you take action... Smile


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 15, 2012, 8:59 AM
Post #146 of 150 (784 views)
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Re: [skydivecat] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Please do not try to re-stow a toggle under canopy. It's very difficult at best, and you'll induce a turn the other way while trying to do so.

Think about it, one brake is stowed, so to fly straight you need the cats-eye (the hole in the sterring line the toggle goes through) needs to be right at the guidering to make it go straight. Now if you want to restow the brake, you'll need to pull it further down so you can get to the cats-eye with the toggle, and this will just make you turn the other way.

Also, you would need to pull the brake line with your hand just below the cats eye to make slack in the lower steering line so you can get the toggle through the line. Not advisable for the most part.

Any problem that takes two hands to fix is probably too much problem to be tyring to fix anyway. Use one hand to keep the canopy flying straight, and your eyes and the other hand to work the problem. If you really feel like your other hand is going to be the key to solving the problem, keep the toggle around your hand, and reach across. It will maintain most the input, and keep the turn rate low if the canopy does turn.

Note- the toggle needs to stay above your thumb. Around your hand, but above your thumb. Do not let the toggle past your thumb down onto your wrist. It might make it easier to work the problem with your hand, but there is a very real possibility that you're going to cutaway, and a toggle around yoru wrist is another problem you don't need at that time.

Above all, watch your altitude. RESPECT your decision altitude, and don't fall into the 'just one more second' trap. You are either in control or not when you reach your decision altitude, and you need to react accordingly without delay.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 15, 2012, 9:02 AM
Post #147 of 150 (781 views)
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Re: [skydivecat] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Firstly, nice job on the decision making and prompt action in carrying it out. You dealt with it and walked away unharmed and that is the important part.

I bet the beer tasted a little sweeter too!!!.

Its easy, and common to sit back later on and figure out what you might have done differently, but your story illustrates one point that you have now experienced.....that of target fixation...while dealing and focussing on one problem, (the hang up) you didn't think of reapplying input into the right toggle.

The effect of adrenalin and a bit of stress tends to narrow our focus somewhat.

But thats OK.

The really important point is that your training kicked in when you reached your hard deck, and you reacted correctly.

Mid air rigging is not a good idea, and next time you may react a little differently. But just keep in mind that two situations are not often exactly the same. Next time you may try to sort it out, but then again next time the instant chop might be the best solution.

Anyway. well done. You've learned a good lesson about dealing with pressure.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Aug 15, 2012, 9:06 AM)


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 15, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #148 of 150 (745 views)
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Re: [skydivecat] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Like I said, good job handing the problem at your level of Exp. You hit your DA and reacted as you should have... you chopped it and no one could fault you for that.

As for in air rigging... no where in my post did I say "you"Wink should have done that... I said "I"Tongue might have tried that, done it once on a batwing 134.

Biggest thing to take away is, you now know you work and the system works, the rest you can sort out over a beer.

Thanks for sharing your story.


skydivecat  (C License)

Aug 15, 2012, 12:01 PM
Post #149 of 150 (722 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks to all three of your for the feedback! Lots of good things to think about and consider.

Dave, I appreciate you outlining all the difficulties in trying to restow a brake while under canopy, as well as other pointers as to what to watch out for and what could have helped had altitude allowed.

The thought to try and restow a brake had not ever crossed my mind until reading Strats post, and even if time had allowed, I doubt I would have tried it. My reply was simply addressing a few of the points that he had brought up.

Oblex, you are 100% right with the target fixation, I just hadn't thought about it that way. That is the only thing I wish I had really done differently, being more aware of everything outside the stuck toggle. All in all though, it felt good to know under pressure that I reacted quickly, decisively, and that beer did taste good!


Decodiver  (D License)

Aug 15, 2012, 12:09 PM
Post #150 of 150 (714 views)
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Re: [skydivecat] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

You had a canopy you could neither control nor land...........good job......welcome to the cutaway club......


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