Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid

 

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rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 20, 2012, 8:27 AM
Post #76 of 150 (1768 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had basically the same thing happen (knotted steering line around my RDS grommet - my fault) and I took a wrap on the good toggle to straighten her out and landed on rears. Velo 96 loaded at 2.2.

I fly on rears all the time though, and land on them a lot even when I have two good toggles. Never thought about cutting the bad brake line, until someone asked me after why I didn't.

thanks, I'd do the same thing (wrap the other line to balance, and then fly rears) even if I had my knife - as long as it's not TOO many wraps to balance. That could seriously mess with the riser flare. Also, Dave's note on cutting lines applies, especially for smaller canopies.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 20, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #77 of 150 (1758 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

>Old Bridge day videos show openings that sucked when misrigged brake likes blew
>and the tail folded upwards initially -- but later the canopy flew without much
>distortion.

Depends on the canopy. Several sorts of canopies (Swifts, a Clipper Sprint, a Z-Po) had their tails fold up even during normal flight with released brakes. All older designs; I haven't been to Bridge Day in a while so I don't know if newer canopies have this issue.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 20, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #78 of 150 (1722 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think I'd ever cut the line in that situation. If I had to take too many wraps to get it flying straight, it becomes a control problem and I'd chop it.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jul 20, 2012, 10:15 AM
Post #79 of 150 (1718 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

I've watched the video several times in an attempt to read the altitude but I can't really make it out. Can anybody read what altitude he pulled at? When he noticed the brake line? when he pulled reserve?

It does seem as though he spent a long time fiddling with his brake line (after not noticing the problem for a while) but also had a good bit of time under his reserve, so I am guessing he pulled on the high side.

EDIT: OK, watched it again, looks like he is at 3000 when his dytter goes off and he pulls). He does something with his chest strap before he unstows his toggles, but it doesn't look really loose. I can't quite see where the altimeter is at 1:58 of the video. Look like 2500ish? Can't read it again at 2:29. Looks like he is under his reserve @1000 ft at 2:49.

it is awfully hard to read that altimeter on the video.


(This post was edited by Southern_Man on Jul 20, 2012, 10:23 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 20, 2012, 10:39 AM
Post #80 of 150 (1701 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think I'd ever cut the line in that situation. If I had to take too many wraps to get it flying straight, it becomes a control problem and I'd chop it.

agreed for your canopy or even mine - (referencing Dave's not on losing all that surface area aft of the D line attachment)

bigger ones - I have no issue cutting a steering line (but I'd still do both) and landing on rears if I had to wrap up the opposite line too much


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 20, 2012, 8:12 PM
Post #81 of 150 (1646 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

agreed for your canopy or even mine - (referencing Dave's not on losing all that surface area aft of the D line attachment)

bigger ones - I have no issue cutting a steering line (but I'd still do both) and landing on rears if I had to wrap up the opposite line too much

Hmmm? Not sure I'd spend the time/altitude messing around. Gotta trust your reserve.

I think it's good to mention your experience level and understanding of the equipment. Newbs or lower time jumpers should be sticking to EP's. Guys like you with thousands of jumps may have time/experience to take these more advanced measures. Cool


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 22, 2012, 8:32 AM
Post #82 of 150 (1521 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Your right 150 jumps is low for a 1.4 on a Xfire. Just to let everyone know I'm at 166 now so all good. Crisis averted


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 22, 2012, 9:34 AM
Post #83 of 150 (1503 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Plus the guys main was a 7 cell. land on the rears.

What does the canopy being a 7 cell have to do with landing it on rears?


5.samadhi

Jul 22, 2012, 10:05 AM
Post #84 of 150 (1487 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Your right 150 jumps is low for a 1.4 on a Xfire. Just to let everyone know I'm at 166 now so all good. Crisis averted
its not that we dont believe you can land well for 16 jumps without getting hurt.

You could probably easily land a velocity loaded at 2.2:1 in ideal circumstances.

Its that in the worst possible scenario most experience people doubt you have the safety margin with 1.4 WL to deal successfully. That takes hundreds of jumps to build up experience so that you can stay safe in all possible scenarios.

Why would you want your hobby to be a ticking time bomb (sooner or later kind of thing).

enough said...I have thought these thoughts out based on personal experience and advice given from close friends/mentors.

After 3 years of skydiving and over 300 jumps I still jump a 1.2 because a safety margin is nice.


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Jul 22, 2012, 10:07 AM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 22, 2012, 10:55 AM
Post #85 of 150 (1468 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Advice noted. By swooping I only mean attempts at accelerated landings. Be it front riser dives. Or 90s. But always with altitude to spare. The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings. I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

And on top of all your other madd skilz, you're psychic. That's pretty awesome.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 22, 2012, 10:56 AM
Post #86 of 150 (1468 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Your right 150 jumps is low for a 1.4 on a Xfire. Just to let everyone know I'm at 166 now so all good. Crisis averted
its not that we dont believe you can land well for 16 jumps without getting hurt.

You could probably easily land a velocity loaded at 2.2:1 in ideal circumstances.

Its that in the worst possible scenario most experience people doubt you have the safety margin with 1.4 WL to deal successfully. That takes hundreds of jumps to build up experience so that you can stay safe in all possible scenarios.

Why would you want your hobby to be a ticking time bomb (sooner or later kind of thing).

enough said...I have thought these thoughts out based on personal experience and advice given from close friends/mentors.

After 3 years of skydiving and over 300 jumps I still jump a 1.2 because a safety margin is nice.

I suppose I should be more afraid of canopy flying etc however as a licensed pilot and now 6 years in aviation since i was 19 for better or worse I am comfortable with flight.
I agree of course no matter what, my safety margin is narrowed by my canopy choice etc. It's fun as hell tho.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 22, 2012, 10:59 AM
Post #87 of 150 (1468 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Advice noted. By swooping I only mean attempts at accelerated landings. Be it front riser dives. Or 90s. But always with altitude to spare. The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings. I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

And on top of all your other madd skilz, you're psychic. That's pretty awesome.

"Madd skilz" what are you? 14?


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jul 22, 2012, 11:14 AM
Post #88 of 150 (1457 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"Madd skilz" what are you? 14?

It's used as a derogatory remark to signify individuals who perceive their skills as better than they actually are.

Simply put, there's been too many people who have downsized too early and killed or seriously injured themselves. Believe it or not, derogatory remarks aside, no one want to see YOU hurt. SmileSmileSmile

If you want to progress quickly by all means do so, get a zillion jumps in, go and seek the best canopy pilots in the world and learn from them, plan your career to be a great canopy pilot. However at the minute most of the regulars on here are of the opinion that at the minute you're flying a ticking time bomb.


(This post was edited by adamUK on Jul 22, 2012, 11:15 AM)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jul 22, 2012, 11:19 AM
Post #89 of 150 (1450 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Advice noted. By swooping I only mean attempts at accelerated landings. Be it front riser dives. Or 90s. But always with altitude to spare. The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings. I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

And on top of all your other madd skilz, you're psychic. That's pretty awesome.

"Madd skilz" what are you? 14?

Nope. He's been around long enough to recognize you. And he's seen all the other "youse" (if that's a word) that came before.
People who are in way, way over their head and don't even realize it.
Who are "special" or "skilled" or who will "be careful" or who have "the approval of the professionals at their DZ'.

Some of them get lucky and never crash and go on to become experienced canopy pilots. Many of those later tell the new guys that "I was stupid and lucky. Don't do what I did."
Some get scared or hurt just a little and learn.
Others get hurt badly enough to be in the hospital for a while and learn. Some keep jumping, some give it up voluntarily, some give it up because they are too damaged to ever jump again.
Some even get hurt badly (ICU for a couple days, hospital for a week or so) but heal well enough that the can keep jumping, but still haven't learned yet. I know one of those.
Some only learn in the last 2 or 3 seconds of their life before they hit the ground and die.

He and some of the others telling you that you are making a bad choice actually care. They've seen "You" before and don't want to see what happened to some of them happen to you.

But it's your choice.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 22, 2012, 11:36 AM
Post #90 of 150 (1439 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Advice noted. By swooping I only mean attempts at accelerated landings. Be it front riser dives. Or 90s. But always with altitude to spare. The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings. I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

And on top of all your other madd skilz, you're psychic. That's pretty awesome.

"Madd skilz" what are you? 14?

I'm trying to be one of the cool kids. I hear they get to hang out with you.

Seriously dood, your trolling techniques are old. Bu, bye.


(This post was edited by chuckakers on Jul 22, 2012, 11:46 AM)


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 22, 2012, 12:32 PM
Post #91 of 150 (1422 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My question here is first he said "canopy was uncontroleable" which is clearly not the case. He had Unstowed his toggles for 15 seconds before he even did enough Of a control check to discover his right side was knotted. Control check? He never actually did one! C'mon. A student would have done a "pump the breaks" and caught this at a higher and safer altitude.

Then he accused the packer. Which shows he doesnt even know or care to find out what really caused the hang up. He then flew his ENTIRE reserve approach in half breaks had no flare left on landing. Where he was taught to fly any canopy like that I would be afraid to know. Plus the guys main was a 7 cell. land on the rears.

Criticize me and my set up? I have taken the advice of dz pros who know me have watched me fly over 90% of my jumps. This canopy and loading may get me flamed for my expirience level but dont worry it is a calculated descision. I do respect your concern.

Thank you for your comments everybody.
At this stage of your skydiving, you are obviously too ignorant to realize how stupid you appear.
Could this canopy have been landed? Probably, but landing on rears is not the easiest thing to do, especially with one brake partially set and the other released.
Could the problem have been caught sooner? Possibly, but it wasn't.
Did he "create" his own problem. Definitely, but we all can and will make mistakes.
Did he fixate on the problem? No, he made a decision and executed it in a controlled manner.
He made an "off DZ landing" in half brakes, then got up and walked away. That's sure not what we teach.
As to your canopy selection and the advice of your "DZ Pros", I have no problem with that, "because you're a grown-ass man and can make your own decisions."Wink
OK, I take it back, you're NOT ignorant, at least not after all the advice you've been given on this forum.
You're just stupid!!
waste of time going any further with this one.....


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 22, 2012, 3:46 PM
Post #92 of 150 (1387 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 Just get back to your original post.

Can you clarify exactly what you meant by "very dangerous" when talking about the cutaway.

Its quite clear that the jumper was not stupid to chop his main. I`m intrigued to know what you thought was dangerous about it.....


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jul 22, 2012, 6:30 PM
Post #93 of 150 (1362 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Your right 150 jumps is low for a 1.4 on a Xfire. Just to let everyone know I'm at 166 now so all good. Crisis averted
its not that we dont believe you can land well for 16 jumps without getting hurt.

You could probably easily land a velocity loaded at 2.2:1 in ideal circumstances.

Its that in the worst possible scenario most experience people doubt you have the safety margin with 1.4 WL to deal successfully. That takes hundreds of jumps to build up experience so that you can stay safe in all possible scenarios.

Why would you want your hobby to be a ticking time bomb (sooner or later kind of thing).

enough said...I have thought these thoughts out based on personal experience and advice given from close friends/mentors.

After 3 years of skydiving and over 300 jumps I still jump a 1.2 because a safety margin is nice.

I suppose I should be more afraid of canopy flying etc however as a licensed pilot and now 6 years in aviation since i was 19 for better or worse I am comfortable with flight.
I agree of course no matter what, my safety margin is narrowed by my canopy choice etc. It's fun as hell tho.


I thought the same thing. Commercial pilot with about 1400 hrs when I broke my back on a straight in on front risers landing when I had about 150 jumps. I'd have to go look for the actual jump number.

There have been many like you and many more to come. You aren't special.


5.samadhi

Jul 22, 2012, 7:01 PM
Post #94 of 150 (1342 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

its a hard lesson to learn - that you're not special and you might make a mistake - especially for such ego-driven people that often are attracted to fringe sports like skydiving.

Your posts (PJ) strike me as being very ego-driven. Anybody who has spent even a season hanging out on a dropzone on the weekends has seen many like you (they all have done something 'extreme' in the past which qualifies them from an exemption from mistakes).

I learned my lesson and I only had to rest for 4 weeks after my injury...I'm a lucky one Tongue


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 22, 2012, 7:24 PM
Post #95 of 150 (1336 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I suppose I should be more afraid of canopy flying etc however as a licensed pilot and now 6 years in aviation since i was 19 for better or worse I am comfortable with flight.
I agree of course no matter what, my safety margin is narrowed by my canopy choice etc. It's fun as hell tho.

How many engine out's did you have without a good runway to aim for?

We don't have the luxury of being able to go around if our approach isn't good enough this time. Sometimes you even end up trying to figure out where the hell you are. I won't go into the details of this clip, but can you honestly say you could do the same/better? Downwind none the less?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqoxnwxF3CA

Yes I know, spot sucked, pulled low, blah blah, again the reasons behind the off landing are nobody here's business. Wink


Sky_doggy  (C 41295)

Jul 22, 2012, 7:36 PM
Post #96 of 150 (1328 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, awesome job. That's enough to make me want to practice my canopy skills on every jump. Phew..... BTW I have 2000 hours on various fixed wing aircraft including sailplanes and I am very very respectful of flying canopies, it's a very different game!!!


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 22, 2012, 7:44 PM
Post #97 of 150 (1325 views)
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Re: [Sky_doggy] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow, awesome job. That's enough to make me want to practice my canopy skills on every jump. Phew..... BTW I have 2000 hours on various fixed wing aircraft including sailplanes and I am very very respectful of flying canopies, it's a very different game!!!

Yup, I was low, adrenaline was flowing, had to do the heavy breathing (you can hear it at the end of the video) to keep my helmet from fogging up (in thru nose, out thru mouth port).

Roads had power lines both sides and crossing them, there was one other lane I could've taken off to the right along the fence lines, but I saw a power line pole right in the middle of it so I decided not to.

I could've downsized more by now but I know for a fact I can do this on my canopy (Safire2 169 @ 1.2), that's Cool enough for me. Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 22, 2012, 9:42 PM
Post #98 of 150 (1300 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

>I suppose I should be more afraid of canopy flying etc . . .

Yes, you should be. If you get killed, the odds are it will be under canopy.

> however as a licensed pilot and now 6 years in aviation since i was 19 for better or
>worse I am comfortable with flight.

I've been teaching for about 15 years now, and the scariest students I've had have been the ones who are sure they are going to be fine because they have:

-fast reactions because they ride motorcycles and are used to speed
-excellent flight skills because they took some flying lessons
-are into adrenalin sports and so can handle the pressure

etc etc.

For people like that, the best thing I can hope for is that they reach the point where they realize how little they know BEFORE they need to rely on the skills they've never bothered to learn (because, of course, they ride motorcycles, and so don't need to.)


jrjny  (A License)

Jul 22, 2012, 10:17 PM
Post #99 of 150 (1292 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

something I keep in mind - if I would be hesitant to land downwind on the runway, it's probably too fast. I could getaway with that but I'm loaded at basically 1 to 1. Wouldn't be excited about it but would have confidence.

my 2 cents - not attacking 'ya

Jeff


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:55 AM
Post #100 of 150 (1250 views)
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Re: [billvon] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

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-fast reactions because they ride motorcycles and are used to speed

I remember one CCI giving the speech to a guy who used the motorcycle excuse with something along the lines of: "If you find yourself in a situation on a bike then you can slow down and park up. This option is not available to you once you've exited the plane door"


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