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Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid

 

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pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 2:22 PM
Post #51 of 150 (1469 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

This is one thing I think is critical. Pack your own rig whenever possible is a good policy.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 3:19 PM
Post #52 of 150 (1445 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok this obviously makes more sense to approach this than what I said.
Live and learn. I didn't mean to be judgemental just spark up a debate more or less.


format  (B 15348)

Jul 19, 2012, 3:20 PM
Post #53 of 150 (1445 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pack your own rig whenever possible is a good policy.

and whoever packed it - don't pull command line through ANYTHING


Iago  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 3:20 PM
Post #54 of 150 (1446 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Quote:
Container: Wonderhog
Main: Super Evolution 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
Reserve: Nova 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
AAD: FXC Model 12000

You gotta be an old fart.

A tid bit of history here:

The Nova 7 was an actual reserve canopy that never went into full production. It was in fact, TSO'd and a few were built! Chris Gay had a 77 sq ft model IIRC.

Quite the swoop machine BTW!

MEL

And if you ever got bored with the Nova, you could flip it around and it became an Avon !

I know a jumper or two that still fly their F111 Nova as a main. They say they great canopies and it was the ZP ones that got everyone killed. Don't know if that's true, just what they said.


(This post was edited by Iago on Jul 19, 2012, 3:27 PM)


Iago  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 3:32 PM
Post #55 of 150 (1426 views)
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Re: [Sky_doggy] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hello,

Hey pj_jumper, thanks for posting this clip, I have learn't a bunch from this thread.

I am new to the sport and I wouldn't have given a second thought to cutting this situation away, but hey, I am serious "chicken shit" when it comes to risk. I have been practicing turning, stalling an flaring on the rears, but I can't see myself trying it for real.

I am curious as to why he chose to land in half brake. Could someone share with me the logic of doing this.

You're not chicken shit. I've got a thousand plus and I would have chopped that shit. Flying on the rears takes a lot of effort and you've only got about 1-2 inches of control. Trying to flare on the rears with a canopy that had a brake knot and a built-in turn could easily have screwed you into the ground.

Take it up high and pull one rear as hard as you can and see what happens. Wheeeeee!


DaVinciflies

Jul 19, 2012, 3:46 PM
Post #56 of 150 (1413 views)
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Re: [Sky_doggy] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am new to the sport and I wouldn't have given a second thought to cutting this situation away, but hey, I am serious "chicken shit" when it comes to risk. I have been practicing turning, stalling an flaring on the rears, but I can't see myself trying it for real.

That's given more information on which to base your decision to chop it.
Good stuff!


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Jul 19, 2012, 3:54 PM
Post #57 of 150 (1401 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

"Pack your own whenever pissible"

Really?

Packing had little, if anything, to do with this incident.

The paid packers who I know generally pack better than many experienced jumpers. Admittedly, my DZ has high standards for packers.

I know lots of jumpers who are better off paying packers than packing for themselves.


lookoutbelow  (A 63826)

Jul 19, 2012, 4:10 PM
Post #58 of 150 (1397 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Looks to me like he did that to himself. At 1:47 you see him pull the toggle through the loop in the excess brake line that had come unstowed (or wasn't stowed properly when it was last packed). If that's what he did, it was an avoidable malfunction.

That does seem to be it exactly. When watching the video I was trying to figure out just what exactly happened. It wasn't obvious to this noob. Pulled out my rig and it didn't take me long to reproduce it. I guess I just learned one more thing. I'm sure if the line had become unstowed like that on me before now, it wouldn't have occurred to me how cautious I'd have to be. So regardless of the intent of posting the video, I'm glad it was posted and discussed.


excaza  (C License)

Jul 19, 2012, 4:16 PM
Post #59 of 150 (1394 views)
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Re: [lookoutbelow] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm kinda glad I saw this video, sometimes I've accidentally pulled out the stow instead of the toggle, I didn't realize it could potentially do something like this!


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jul 19, 2012, 4:33 PM
Post #60 of 150 (1384 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

You'd rather have one more cut-away and reserve ride than regret not having one.

He saved his live, job well done!


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 19, 2012, 4:38 PM
Post #61 of 150 (1381 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

I had basically the same thing happen (knotted steering line around my RDS grommet - my fault) and I took a wrap on the good toggle to straighten her out and landed on rears. Velo 96 loaded at 2.2.

I fly on rears all the time though, and land on them a lot even when I have two good toggles. Never thought about cutting the bad brake line, until someone asked me after why I didn't.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jul 19, 2012, 5:02 PM
Post #62 of 150 (1375 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Quote:
Container: Wonderhog
Main: Super Evolution 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
Reserve: Nova 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
AAD: FXC Model 12000

You gotta be an old fart.

A tid bit of history here:

The Nova 7 was an actual reserve canopy that never went into full production. It was in fact, TSO'd and a few were built! Chris Gay had a 77 sq ft model IIRC.

Quite the swoop machine BTW!

MEL

The Nova: The canopy that flew great till it collapsed.

They just never figured out how to market that. Laugh


(This post was edited by CSpenceFLY on Jul 19, 2012, 5:06 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 19, 2012, 6:36 PM
Post #63 of 150 (1333 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I fly on rears all the time though, and land on them a lot even when I have two good toggles. Never thought about cutting the bad brake line, until someone asked me after why I didn't.

A good reason not to cut the offending brake line is that it's not as simple as it seems. As someone else mentioned, you would need to cut both of them to make a 'symetrical' canopy, because even in full flight the brake lines hold tail in place and in line with the rest of the canopy.

Additionally, if you cut both brake lines, and allow the tail to fly free, your rear riser flare will only effect the canopy from the mid-chord to the D-lines, as the tail won't be suspended (or suspend any weight) at all. So your effective flying area will be reduced, and in turn your stall speed will go up, and flare effectiveness will go down.

Even when ladning only on rears, the steering lines hold the tail in place and allow it to take some of the load during the plane-out and flare. This is true on any canopy, and BASE jumpers will confirm that even their BASE canopies come in different when they have to toss their toggles to clear a line-over.

If you're flying a Velo at 2.2, you should be good enough to compensate for the knotted brake line, and get enough flare out of the rears (or one rear, one toggle) in order to have a 'good' landing. If you're flying a Velo at any loading and don't feel confident in your ability to do that, you're in over your head.

This is the prime example for choosing a canopy for the worst case scenario. If this mal had occured below the hard deck, you would be stuck landing the comprimised canopy, and this is where your canopy should be forgiving enough to make up for your lack of skill. If you don't feel like you could land your canopy like the one in the video, you should either be focused on improving your canopy piloting skills as job one, or looking for a bigger or more doclie canopy (or both).

I'm not suggesting that everyone should choose to land such a canopy if they're presented with it, much to the contrarty. If you prefer to land a more functional canopy, by all means cutaway. What I'm saying is that not everyone has the luxury of altitude like the jumper in the video, and if you should end up there, you should be ready for that with sufficient canopy piloting skills and a canopy to match.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 7:30 PM
Post #64 of 150 (1308 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"Pack your own whenever pissible"

Really?

Packing had little, if anything, to do with this incident.

The paid packers who I know generally pack better than many experienced jumpers. Admittedly, my DZ has high standards for packers.

I know lots of jumpers who are better off paying packers than packing for themselves.

packing was almost no factor. but pack your own rig is a good policy. i believe its part of the sport that you should learn as well as any. this jumper in the video does not. i wish i were rich like him


aussiechick  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 8:47 PM
Post #65 of 150 (1274 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Don't criticize someone for choosing to chop a malfunctioning main just because YOU think you would have landed it.

You'd feel like an even bigger dick if you broke yourself on landing, all the while having a nice unused reserve still in your container.

He landed. He was unhurt. It was the right decision for HIM.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 19, 2012, 8:53 PM
Post #66 of 150 (1271 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
as the tail won't be suspended (or suspend any weight) at all.

I do wonder though, to what degree it is true. Certainly a tail unsupported by brake lines on opening can flip up. Old Bridge day videos show openings that sucked when misrigged brake likes blew and the tail folded upwards initially -- but later the canopy flew without much distortion.

The tail should be stiff enough through internal pressure to stay in place when simply rear riser flaring. For example, if one has a swoop canopy, the tail doesn't totally distort just because you have an extra 6" slack in your brake lines. The tail doesn't start to fold upwards. Nor does it flip up in the center section where there are no brake lines to begin with. If you are starting a rear riser flare, the tail is only supported fully in the first place if you're on a canopy with Spectra brake lines that have shrunk to zero slack. So normally, internal pressure will keep the tail reasonably in the right place even under the small additional forces from a rear riser flare.

So I'm half way on this: An unsupported tail may distort and add a hazard, but I don't think things will automatically go bad.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 19, 2012, 10:32 PM
Post #67 of 150 (1247 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

I just spent a bunch of time reading this entire thread.

PJ_Jumper... If you're afraid to use your researve given ample altitude under these conditions, buy a bowling ball and some striped shoes.Tongue You need to have complete confidence in your reserve and the guy or gal (probly not you) who packed it. Good luck in your continued skydiving endevors. Please don't make me update my "Bounce Bingo" cards.

@ the guy in the video... Nice cutaway! I'd of done the same thing. In air rigging, even cutting break lines, is not a good idea. Smile


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 19, 2012, 10:50 PM
Post #68 of 150 (1239 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Criticize me and my set up? I have taken the advice of dz pros who know me have watched me fly over 90% of my jumps. This canopy and loading may get me flamed for my expirience level but dont worry it is a calculated descision. I do respect your concern.


What you are trying to do is convince yourself and us is that you are better at 150 jumps than all the jumpers on this list.

Good luck you will need it.

Sparky

http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/...p;LessonsOperator=OR


format  (B 15348)

Jul 19, 2012, 11:22 PM
Post #69 of 150 (1227 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In order to convince him you have to jump Smile


JackC1

Jul 20, 2012, 12:26 AM
Post #70 of 150 (1210 views)
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Re: [lookoutbelow] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Looks to me like he did that to himself. At 1:47 you see him pull the toggle through the loop in the excess brake line that had come unstowed (or wasn't stowed properly when it was last packed). If that's what he did, it was an avoidable malfunction.

That does seem to be it exactly. When watching the video I was trying to figure out just what exactly happened. It wasn't obvious to this noob. Pulled out my rig and it didn't take me long to reproduce it. I guess I just learned one more thing. I'm sure if the line had become unstowed like that on me before now, it wouldn't have occurred to me how cautious I'd have to be. So regardless of the intent of posting the video, I'm glad it was posted and discussed.

SmileSmile

I once had this very problem, except my finger was stuck in the knot, so I had no choice but to land it. The trick is to pay attention as to how you put your fingers in the toggle before you pop the brakes. I also tend to pack with the excess stowed to the inside of the riser so if it comes loose, it's hopefully held away from my fingers.


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Jul 20, 2012, 2:53 AM
Post #71 of 150 (1181 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I once had this very problem, except my finger was stuck in the knot]/reply]

Yup, me too. I freed it eventually, but it scared 50-jump me to the point where I still always, always look at what I'm doing when I reach for the toggles.


michalm21  (Student)

Jul 20, 2012, 5:41 AM
Post #72 of 150 (1114 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty much identical thing happened to me last weekend.
I always pack for myself, couldn't believe I'd stow my brake carelessly like that but it happened.

I decided to cut the lower brake line and land on rears but I also thought of cutting away (for too long let me add)

I don't think he did a wrong thing. In terms of his other actions it's subjective to judge from this video and description.


Ron

Jul 20, 2012, 7:18 AM
Post #73 of 150 (1072 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
By swooping I only mean attempts at accelerated landings. Be it front riser dives. Or 90s. But always with altitude to spare.

Do you think anyone EVER did a turn to final low on purpose? Don't you think they ALL thought they would be fine?

Quote:
I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

The guy had a canopy he didn't feel was safe to land. He made a choice and correctly executed that choice. You may not agree with his choice.... But how many malfunctions have you handled?

Me, I have 9 cutaways and 5500+ jumps and I think the guy did the right thing. I might not have done the same thing - but it was not my ass in the saddle, it was his.


Ron

Jul 20, 2012, 7:46 AM
Post #74 of 150 (1060 views)
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Re: [Sky_doggy] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am curious as to why he chose to land in half brake. Could someone share with me the logic of doing this.

With the correct sized canopy, landing in half brakes and doing a PLF is a very valid option. If you recall your FJC "go to half brakes and prepare to PLF" was most likely mentioned several times during the emergency landing portion of the course.

Was it necessary here? Most likely not, but it didn't hurt anything.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 20, 2012, 7:47 AM
Post #75 of 150 (1058 views)
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Re: [format] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In order to convince him you have to jump Smile

That was awesome! LaughLaugh


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