Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid

 

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DaVinciflies

Jul 19, 2012, 8:51 AM
Post #26 of 150 (1374 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Haha. Just an example of reserve abuse that caught my attention. Thought it should be pointed out.

And you are still refusing to listen to numerous others with massively more experience than you who are saying:

a) this was a perfectly well handled situation.
b) you are in over your head with what you are trying to do in terms of landing techniques and equipment.

The masses are speaking to you and they are saying "You're wrong, and you're wrong".

You might want to consider this - and humbly take action other than defending yourself.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 19, 2012, 8:56 AM
Post #27 of 150 (1364 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

You sir, haven't got a clue.

But thanks for sharing your dead wrong opinion.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 19, 2012, 8:58 AM
Post #28 of 150 (1361 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings. I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

What else do you think he should have been thinking of? In my book, altitude is a big concern on any skydive, from the time you leave the plane until you're back on the ground. If I had a stuck toggle or knotted brake line, I would think that might be next in my line of thinking.

The more you talk, the more it seems like you have a flawed thought process.

Note the location of the knot in the brake line, there's a good lenght of brake line pulled through the guide ring, and the knot locks that input into the system. Landing on rear risers would involve some sort of compensation to get the canopy to fly straight, and would result in a braked approach to landing.

Your two options would be to fly with left riser input (and right toggle input via the knot) down to an asymetical rear riser flare from a brakes approach, or to hold left toggle agaisnt the right turn, and flare with the left toggle and right riser from a braked approach. What is it about those two options that are so appealing to you that you're willing to call the cutaway 'dangerous' and 'stupid'.

My opinion would be that attempting either of those landings without significant experience on both the canopy in question and the rear risers would be dangerous and stupid.

The cutaway was the correct solution. It permitted a safe landing on a forgiving canopy.

For a guy with such little time and experience in the sport, you sure seem to think you have a lot of answers about a lot things, but I would suggest that your 'expertise' is only in your head. Sure, you might know 10x what you used to know a year ago, so in your mind you feel like a genuis, but consider for a moment that your experience is a drop in the bucket compared to someone who has been in the sport for 5, 10, or 15 years more than you.

I can assure you from experience that the learning does not end, it builds upon itself for many years to come.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 19, 2012, 9:13 AM
Post #29 of 150 (1346 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My question here is first he said "canopy was uncontroleable" which is clearly not the case. He had Unstowed his toggles for 15 seconds before he even did enough Of a control check to discover his right side was knotted. Control check? He never actually did one! C'mon. A student would have done a "pump the breaks" and caught this at a higher and safer altitude.

Then he accused the packer. Which shows he doesnt even know or care to find out what really caused the hang up. He then flew his ENTIRE reserve approach in half breaks had no flare left on landing. Where he was taught to fly any canopy like that I would be afraid to know. Plus the guys main was a 7 cell. land on the rears.

Criticize me and my set up? I have taken the advice of dz pros who know me have watched me fly over 90% of my jumps. This canopy and loading may get me flamed for my expirience level but dont worry it is a calculated descision. I do respect your concern.

Thank you for your comments everybody.
At this stage of your skydiving, you are obviously too ignorant to realize how stupid you appear.
Could this canopy have been landed? Probably, but landing on rears is not the easiest thing to do, especially with one brake partially set and the other released.
Could the problem have been caught sooner? Possibly, but it wasn't.
Did he "create" his own problem. Definitely, but we all can and will make mistakes.
Did he fixate on the problem? No, he made a decision and executed it in a controlled manner.
He made an "off DZ landing" in half brakes, then got up and walked away. That's sure not what we teach.
As to your canopy selection and the advice of your "DZ Pros", I have no problem with that, "because you're a grown-ass man and can make your own decisions."Wink


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 9:19 AM
Post #30 of 150 (1344 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Valid saying it would have been Unusual inputs to land.
Hmm I am out numbered for some reason. I guess I shouldn't judge this harshly if I wast the guy under canopy etc. easy to couch jump I guess


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 19, 2012, 9:25 AM
Post #31 of 150 (1337 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Hmm I am out numbered for some reason

The reason is that you're wrong. By going on to defend your position on this, and some other things, you're proving that you're looking at things from the wrong end. You're on the bottom of the totem pole at this point, but you're making judgements and statements like guy several notches up from you.

Here's something to think about, and it pretains to more than just this thread, it can be applied to your overall mdinset moving forward - How do you think this thread would have turned out if the title was something like 'Stuck brake cutaway', and your opening post was something like, 'Hey guys, what do you think of this cutaway? It looks like he might have made that knot himself, but in any case, couldn't he just land on rears?'.

See? No accusations, no judgements, but an open mind and looking for opinions/viewpoints.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #32 of 150 (1326 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Haha. Just an example of reserve abuse that caught my attention. Thought it should be pointed out.

Actually I'd call it main abuse, wide open area like that...I would have followed it down.

Poor thing was layin' out in a field all alone and scared!


JohnRich  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 9:47 AM
Post #33 of 150 (1314 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings.

Tell us what, specifically, you think he lacks.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 19, 2012, 10:00 AM
Post #34 of 150 (1302 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
title was something like 'Stuck brake cutaway', and your opening post was something like, 'Hey guys, what do you think of this cutaway? It looks like he might have made that knot himself, but in any case, couldn't he just land on rears?'.

1 - Nice note, Dave, as always ^ (I'd even say that's a better presentation for people with thousands of jumps too - allows open discussion etc etc)

2 - note the OP did also sorta mea culpa ("I guess I shouldn't judge this harshly if I wasn't the guy under canopy etc. easy to couch jump I guess") to the knee jerk judgment finally - with that, I'd probably stop busting him on it

3 - as for the swooping and jumping that size Crossfire at 150 jumps? I'd keep busting him for a bit - it's still worth it to save a decent new jumper from hurting himself


Edit: watched the vid - I think the kid did a fine job. Personally, I'd have landed it, but the cutaway is absolutely a valid choice. Personally, I eyeball my toggle grab specifically and watch to avoid that mistake in grab (picking up the toggle through the excess line). Frankly, that scenario was highlighted in Parachutist exactly just a few months ago. (I hate to admit getting something good from the magazine, it hurts a bit Laugh). The stow method on my Mirage does not preclude this scenario but does make it rather unlikely, the method I use on my Odyssey does - there's a few dozen ways to stow excess steering line (without velcro please), a good rigger can advise some of the better ways.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 19, 2012, 10:08 AM)


wildcard451  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 10:40 AM
Post #35 of 150 (1262 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually proper procedure in this situation would clearly be to take out his hook knife, cut both main steering lines so that he may land on his rears, unencumbered by any drag applied by steering line tension.

After a minimum of a 270 degree front riser approach, of course.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jul 19, 2012, 11:01 AM
Post #36 of 150 (1255 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Quote:
Container: Wonderhog
Main: Super Evolution 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
Reserve: Nova 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
AAD: FXC Model 12000

You gotta be an old fart.

A tid bit of history here:

The Nova 7 was an actual reserve canopy that never went into full production. It was in fact, TSO'd and a few were built! Chris Gay had a 77 sq ft model IIRC.

Quite the swoop machine BTW!

MEL


Sky_doggy  (C 41295)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:04 PM
Post #37 of 150 (1209 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello,

Hey pj_jumper, thanks for posting this clip, I have learn't a bunch from this thread.

I am new to the sport and I wouldn't have given a second thought to cutting this situation away, but hey, I am serious "chicken shit" when it comes to risk. I have been practicing turning, stalling an flaring on the rears, but I can't see myself trying it for real.

I am curious as to why he chose to land in half brake. Could someone share with me the logic of doing this.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:09 PM
Post #38 of 150 (1201 views)
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Re: [Sky_doggy] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me just discredit myself before someone else here does. A cutaway seems like a reasonable option here and I may be wrong saying otherwise. However yes I do wonder why he flew his res like that.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:14 PM
Post #39 of 150 (1191 views)
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Re: [Sky_doggy] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am curious as to why he chose to land in half brake. Could someone share with me the logic of doing this.

The video may be misleading. At least some of that may be from the fact that reserve risers are short, so the reserve toggles start out low.


Sky_doggy  (C 41295)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:23 PM
Post #40 of 150 (1178 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, and that is in part why I asked. A friend of mine (D + 1000 jumps) whacked herself pretty badly by stalling a micro raven at about 10' off the ground. It had a very short toggle stroke.

I plan on renting a PDR 176 next season from PD and learn how to land it. Before that I have to get smart enough at packing so it doesn't open super fast at terminal. Frown


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:24 PM
Post #41 of 150 (1178 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I am curious as to why he chose to land in half brake. Could someone share with me the logic of doing this.

The video may be misleading. At least some of that may be from the fact that reserve risers are short, so the reserve toggles start out low.

I just noticed that he did NOT wave off before he pulled.... everything else imho was done right. He made a decision, altitude aware, and he is not hurt. Seems like he did a great job to me. OP... I hope one of the pros you are talking about has the fortitude to tell you that you are out of your league on that canopy.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:27 PM
Post #42 of 150 (1178 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Re: braked approach & landing

The landing area appears (to my eye) to have numerous concrete lined irrigation ditches. It is entirely possible that he may have been flying in brakes as an accuracy approach to avoid these obstacles.

Yes, landing parallel to the ditches would have been an option. However, wind direction & speed may have influenced his decision about that.


JackC1

Jul 19, 2012, 12:30 PM
Post #43 of 150 (1173 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks to me like he did that to himself. At 1:47 you see him pull the toggle through the loop in the excess brake line that had come unstowed (or wasn't stowed properly when it was last packed). If that's what he did, it was an avoidable malfunction.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Jul 19, 2012, 12:31 PM)


Decodiver  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:45 PM
Post #44 of 150 (1155 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Haha. Just an example of reserve abuse that caught my attention. Thought it should be pointed out.

And what are you, the reserve Police?

The guy decided he couldn't land it, he cut away at his hard deck and landed under a fully functioning reserve.

WTF is wrong with that?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #45 of 150 (1142 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Actually proper procedure in this situation would clearly be to take out his hook knife, cut both main steering lines so that he may land on his rears, unencumbered by any drag applied by steering line tension.

After a minimum of a 270 degree front riser approach, of course.

Just for learning - How many here comfy with landing it - would cut the steering lines (if they had a hook knife - I do on one rig). I would. Then it's easier to fly on rears without having to balance out the bound side.

If not - how many would just fly compensated (crooked hands, crooked flare) - vs taking a wrap or two on the unaffected side and then flying on rears (knowing that the steering lines are slightly short now). I think I'd opt for the wrap, but I want to think on it. Hopefully all high enough to take some practice turns and flares....

1st option - cut the lines and land on rears
2nd option (no knife) - balance the steering lines and land on rears
3rd option (no knife) - just fly crooked hands

caviat - if any of these don't pass the in flight test (turn turn flare), cutaway of course

that little short steering line extension is cheap and quick to replace


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 19, 2012, 12:58 PM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:55 PM
Post #46 of 150 (1138 views)
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Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Looks to me like he did that to himself. At 1:47 you see him pull the toggle through the loop in the excess brake line that had come unstowed (or wasn't stowed properly when it was last packed). If that's what he did, it was an avoidable malfunction.

absolutely that's what it looks like - he only seemed to blame the packers for the loop coming unstowed, not for his poor grab


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 1:07 PM
Post #47 of 150 (1119 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Looks to me like he did that to himself. At 1:47 you see him pull the toggle through the loop in the excess brake line that had come unstowed (or wasn't stowed properly when it was last packed). If that's what he did, it was an avoidable malfunction.

absolutely that's what it looks like - he only seemed to blame the packers for the loop coming unstowed, not for his poor grab

It's why when I leave my rig with a packer, I generally leave it with the toggles and the excess already stowed, the way I like it. Lessens the chance of it not being the way I like it when it opens.


in2jumping  (C License)

Jul 19, 2012, 1:25 PM
Post #48 of 150 (1104 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do respect your concern.

I am not concern at all. Could care less what you jump, as long as you dont take anyone out.

I was just pointing out that what you are doing is FAR more Dangerous and stupid than cutting away a break line malfunction.


JohnRich  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 1:54 PM
Post #49 of 150 (1074 views)
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Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do wonder why he flew his res like that.

Like what? There seems to be a presumption that he flew it in at half brakes, but from my viewing of that video, his arms aren't in view of the camera for about 95% of the reserve ride down. So I don't think one can conclude that he was at half-brakes all that time.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 19, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #50 of 150 (1072 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Looks to me like he did that to himself. At 1:47 you see him pull the toggle through the loop in the excess brake line that had come unstowed (or wasn't stowed properly when it was last packed). If that's what he did, it was an avoidable malfunction.

absolutely that's what it looks like - he only seemed to blame the packers for the loop coming unstowed, not for his poor grab

It's why when I leave my rig with a packer, I generally leave it with the toggles and the excess already stowed, the way I like it. Lessens the chance of it not being the way I like it when it opens.

For that matter, I know a few (few) jumpers that don't even stow the excess. Yet they don't seem to reach through and create fun and exciting knots.


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