Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid

 


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 18, 2012, 8:26 PM
Post #1 of 150 (5247 views)
Shortcut
Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid Can't Post

people should watch this video i have dug up as an example of what NOT to do. i would like to think this jumper was joking with his description of this video but it is apparent he is not. jumpers like this obviously snuck through the system with very little or incorrect canopy training. his actions and analysis of his own actions took me aback. see for yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFNsQ6JlZAs


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 18, 2012, 8:43 PM
Post #2 of 150 (5154 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
people should watch this video i have dug up as an example of what NOT to do. i would like to think this jumper was joking with his description of this video but it is apparent he is not. jumpers like this obviously snuck through the system with very little or incorrect canopy training. his actions and analysis of his own actions took me aback. see for yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFNsQ6JlZAs

He caused the knot himself, the excess wrapped around the toggle and knotted up, not the first time that's happened.

Furthermore, at that point it may well have become a necessary cutaway... I for one have no intentions of criticizing someones decision to go to their reserve. (other than just bullshitting with them/joking)

He caused the mal, sure... he blamed it on the packer (which is no excuse, you really should set/stow your excess and cock your PC before you plop it down and walk away) but maybe he didn't realize what he did caused it and not the packer.

Yes, people exist out there with thousands and thousands of jumps that cannot properly hook up a canopy to the risers/dbag/pc. The great part is it keeps riggers like me with some income (either by fixing their screw up or by repacking their reserves!)Tongue


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Jul 18, 2012, 8:44 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 18, 2012, 8:49 PM
Post #3 of 150 (5148 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

You should show a lot more experience before you set out what the examples should or shouldn't be.

This jumper evaluated his canopy and found it was unable to pass a control check. The made a great decision.

Could they have tried something else? Sure, however they followed a plan of action any student would follow. I would suggest they rose to the level of their training. Good for them.

Rigging in midair is never a good idea.


JohnRich  (D License)

Jul 18, 2012, 9:04 PM
Post #4 of 150 (5132 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

The guy seemed to handle it amazingly well and very calmly. He saved his handles, and held them in his teeth to free his hands to fly the reserve. The first thing he did on landing was to stow his reserve brake toggles - not something I would think important at that moment. He seems like a real veteran, likely not his first cut-away.

I think you're way out of line to call this guy some kind of unsafe, incompetent idiot because of this one video. Sooner or later you'll have a little problem like that, and we'll be waiting to return the favor. Wink

The canopy was flying straight and level, with open land everywhere - I would have landed it. But he made a good call, and it was his decision to make.

He could have stood up after landing so that his buddies still in the air didn't think he was injured because he was just sitting there on his ass not doing anything.

But OMG! There was an old fart without a helmet! And another maniac did a back flip at breakoff! Now there's some real idiots! Call the S&TA!


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Jul 18, 2012, 9:11 PM)


in2jumping  (C License)

Jul 18, 2012, 9:31 PM
Post #5 of 150 (5104 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i have dug up as an example of what NOT to do

Jumps: 150
Years: 2
Swooping (110 jumps)
Crossfire 2 139 ft (1.40 lbs/ft)


Tongue


(This post was edited by in2jumping on Jul 18, 2012, 9:42 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:39 AM
Post #6 of 150 (5050 views)
Shortcut
Re: [diablopilot] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You should show a lot more experience before you set out what the examples should or shouldn't be.

This jumper evaluated his canopy and found it was unable to pass a control check. The made a great decision.

Could they have tried something else? Sure, however they followed a plan of action any student would follow. I would suggest they rose to the level of their training. Good for them.

Rigging in midair is never a good idea.

+10


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:41 AM
Post #7 of 150 (5048 views)
Shortcut
Re: [in2jumping] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

LaughLaughLaugh
LaughLaughLaugh
LaughLaughLaugh

Container: Wonderhog
Main: Super Evolution 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
Reserve: Nova 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
AAD: FXC Model 12000

You gotta be an old fart.
LaughLaughLaughTongue


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Jul 19, 2012, 3:48 AM
Post #8 of 150 (5007 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JohnRich] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

He also kept checking his alti and made a decision at his hard deck. Many would land it but I thought that was a pretty textbook chop. Well done him.


piisfish

Jul 19, 2012, 4:09 AM
Post #9 of 150 (4987 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
LaughLaughLaugh
LaughLaughLaugh
LaughLaughLaugh

Container: Wonderhog
Main: Super Evolution 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
Reserve: Nova 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
AAD: FXC Model 12000

You gotta be an old fat fart.
LaughLaughLaughTongue
FIFY


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 4:21 AM
Post #10 of 150 (4978 views)
Shortcut
Re: [in2jumping] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

My question here is first he said "canopy was uncontroleable" which is clearly not the case. He had Unstowed his toggles for 15 seconds before he even did enough Of a control check to discover his right side was knotted. Control check? He never actually did one! C'mon. A student would have done a "pump the breaks" and caught this at a higher and safer altitude.

Then he accused the packer. Which shows he doesnt even know or care to find out what really caused the hang up. He then flew his ENTIRE reserve approach in half breaks had no flare left on landing. Where he was taught to fly any canopy like that I would be afraid to know. Plus the guys main was a 7 cell. land on the rears.

Criticize me and my set up? I have taken the advice of dz pros who know me have watched me fly over 90% of my jumps. This canopy and loading may get me flamed for my expirience level but dont worry it is a calculated descision. I do respect your concern.

Thank you for your comments everybody.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 19, 2012, 4:46 AM
Post #11 of 150 (4957 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Criticize me and my set up? I have taken the advice of dz pros who know me have watched me fly over 90% of my jumps. This canopy and loading may get me flamed for my expirience level but dont worry it is a calculated descision

So what you're suggesting is that we shouldn't judge you based on what we see of you on the internet? That the reality of your situation is different than it may appear online?

Every considered taking your own advice?

Regardless of what you thought of how the mal happened, what the jumper thought of it, or the timely-ness of his response, it's hard to fault the outcome, that being a safe landing.

Did you think to give the guy credit for pulling high enough to have time under canopy before reaching his hard-deck? How about for being aware of his altitude at every stage of the game? What about realizing his limitations and knowing that he personally had a better chance at a safe landing under a reserve?

Of coruse not. Beyond that, there's no 'calculated' decision when you claim to have 110 swoops and 150 total jumps. Even if you had 10 swoops and 150 total jummps, that's still not enough to have started swooping, whoever you are. Similarly, your WL isn't appropriate for someone at your level, regardless of how great you, or anyone else, seems to think you are.

Keep in mind that non of your 'DZ pros' are the ones who have to hit the ground hard when you screw up. It's easy for them to tell you one thing or another because they have no dog in that fight. Their involvement ends when they're done flapping their gums, while you have to live with the possibly painful and lifelong consequnces.

The way you were so quick to defend your position shows that you are aware that it's well outside the 'norm', and I would question the judgement of anyone who would willfully operate that way in an area proven to kill and injure more jumpers than any other facet of the sport. Additionally, look at the responses your post got, and maybe you can see that your outlook on the sport may be a little skewed in the wrong direction, and that an adjustment might be in order.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jul 19, 2012, 5:08 AM
Post #12 of 150 (4937 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Its OK though... he's carrying a camera, so if (when?) he biffs, there'll be a good video of his awsome setup... Crazy

JW


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 5:31 AM
Post #13 of 150 (4911 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

OH, you should have told us you have "Mad Skillz" in the first place.

That makes everything different.

Continue DIGIT.


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Jul 19, 2012, 5:58 AM
Post #14 of 150 (4880 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Criticize me and my set up? I have taken the advice of dz pros who know me have watched me fly over 90% of my jumps.

Really, is this a troll? That has to be THE most cliche line ever on this forum. Have you any idea how many people have busted out that exact line only to wind up in the incidents forum a few months down the line?

What was the name of that legend from the swoop threads who broke himself and came back to his own incident thread a changed man?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 19, 2012, 6:10 AM
Post #15 of 150 (4861 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
people should watch this video i have dug up as an example of what NOT to do. i would like to think this jumper was joking with his description of this video but it is apparent he is not. jumpers like this obviously snuck through the system with very little or incorrect canopy training. his actions and analysis of his own actions took me aback. see for yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFNsQ6JlZAs

The guy in the saddle thought he needed to chop the main. The guy lived. Guess he wasn't wrong.

Just for fun, what would you suggest he should have done?


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 6:12 AM
Post #16 of 150 (4858 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JohnRich] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Points are noted. I appreciate the feedback.


Mark4  (D 8136)

Jul 19, 2012, 6:15 AM
Post #17 of 150 (4855 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

PD consider it a malfunction as per the article here.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/ControlSysMalf.pdf

From the article
"A misrouted steering line, entangled steering line, or any other type of problem involving the control system may severely limit your ability to control the canopy and should be considered a serious, life-threatening malfunction."

Too many people have died by not dealing with this type of malfunction, hence the article from PD.

IMO there was nothing wrong with chopping this. For me it would depend on how much brake was applied, the right toggle is definitely not up against the ring. Personally, I would fly my canopy on rears but not with one brake partly applied.

Glad you raised this though, its a good reminder to everyone not to be complacent on opening.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Jul 19, 2012, 6:27 AM
Post #18 of 150 (4836 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Plus the guys main was a 7 cell. land on the rears

Hmm.... Given that the canopy would not fly straight without significant compensation with the brake on the opposite side, he may have assessed that attempting a landing on rears would be too dangerous. There is a huge difference between landing on rears with normally functioning brakes, or a broken brake line (canopy flying straight), and attempting to land on rears with a canopy that won't fly straight without heavy input.

We all make mistakes. This guy made a mistake with his toggle. However, he managed it in a manner that kept him from injury.

May you be able to manage all your mistakes with the same outcome.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 6:43 AM
Post #19 of 150 (4811 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Plus the guys main was a 7 cell. land on the rears

Hmm.... Given that the canopy would not fly straight without significant compensation with the brake on the opposite side, he may have assessed that attempting a landing on rears would be too dangerous. There is a huge difference between landing on rears with normally functioning brakes, or a broken brake line (canopy flying straight), and attempting to land on rears with a canopy that won't fly straight without heavy input.

+1

But it sounds like the OP knows more about canopy flight than anyone else here.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 19, 2012, 6:50 AM
Post #20 of 150 (4805 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Plus the guys main was a 7 cell. land on the rears.

He may well have been able to keep it straight and use his rears, but keeping it straight with heavy input might be OK up high, but close to the ground any turbulence he encounters could collapse the canopy completely.

Or did you not consider that possibility?. Its likely he did.....


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jul 19, 2012, 6:54 AM
Post #21 of 150 (4798 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
land on the rears.
Always trust your rears

In reply to:
dont worry it is a calculated descision.
Cause you are a grown ass man and can make your own decisions!
Well done, good sir. Well done.

You should continue this conversation here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/sofpidarf/ Crazy


(This post was edited by adamUK on Jul 19, 2012, 6:56 AM)


tsisson  (D 19283)

Jul 19, 2012, 7:10 AM
Post #22 of 150 (4785 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Criticize me and my set up? I have taken the advice of dz pros who know me have watched me fly over 90% of my jumps. This canopy and loading may get me flamed for my expirience level but dont worry it is a calculated descision..

I'm don't claim to be the most experienced jumper in the world...but in the 18 years I have been jumping, I have heard this same line every year.

4 friends do not jump anymore. 1 dead, 1 in wheelchair, 1 permanently limps after a 3 month stay in a rehab clinic, and one seems fine but physically cannot jump from chronic pain associated from 2 femur breaks on the same jump.

All of them hooked in on little canopies that they had no business jumping, all under 500 jumps experience. All of them chattering about how they had special skills and were the exception, and were "ready".

These are just the close friends that have said the same things at about the same experience level as you...and do not include the ones I've seen hit the ground but didn't know.

We'd like you to stick around and become an old and wise presence on your DZ...my advice, let the dead and injured's final lessons sink in, and SLOW DOWN!


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 7:56 AM
Post #23 of 150 (4735 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tsisson] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Advice noted. By swooping I only mean attempts at accelerated landings. Be it front riser dives. Or 90s. But always with altitude to spare. The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings. I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind


ChrisL  (C 35323)

Jul 19, 2012, 8:13 AM
Post #24 of 150 (4708 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

Are you the packer he blamed, or friends with the packer or something?

You seem strangely antagonistic towards this guy.

Doesn't seem like the kind of response one would have toward a random guy in a random video you found on YouTube Crazy


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 8:36 AM
Post #25 of 150 (4680 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ChrisL] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Haha. Just an example of reserve abuse that caught my attention. Thought it should be pointed out.


DaVinciflies

Jul 19, 2012, 8:51 AM
Post #26 of 150 (1355 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Haha. Just an example of reserve abuse that caught my attention. Thought it should be pointed out.

And you are still refusing to listen to numerous others with massively more experience than you who are saying:

a) this was a perfectly well handled situation.
b) you are in over your head with what you are trying to do in terms of landing techniques and equipment.

The masses are speaking to you and they are saying "You're wrong, and you're wrong".

You might want to consider this - and humbly take action other than defending yourself.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 19, 2012, 8:56 AM
Post #27 of 150 (1345 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

You sir, haven't got a clue.

But thanks for sharing your dead wrong opinion.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 19, 2012, 8:58 AM
Post #28 of 150 (1342 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings. I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

What else do you think he should have been thinking of? In my book, altitude is a big concern on any skydive, from the time you leave the plane until you're back on the ground. If I had a stuck toggle or knotted brake line, I would think that might be next in my line of thinking.

The more you talk, the more it seems like you have a flawed thought process.

Note the location of the knot in the brake line, there's a good lenght of brake line pulled through the guide ring, and the knot locks that input into the system. Landing on rear risers would involve some sort of compensation to get the canopy to fly straight, and would result in a braked approach to landing.

Your two options would be to fly with left riser input (and right toggle input via the knot) down to an asymetical rear riser flare from a brakes approach, or to hold left toggle agaisnt the right turn, and flare with the left toggle and right riser from a braked approach. What is it about those two options that are so appealing to you that you're willing to call the cutaway 'dangerous' and 'stupid'.

My opinion would be that attempting either of those landings without significant experience on both the canopy in question and the rear risers would be dangerous and stupid.

The cutaway was the correct solution. It permitted a safe landing on a forgiving canopy.

For a guy with such little time and experience in the sport, you sure seem to think you have a lot of answers about a lot things, but I would suggest that your 'expertise' is only in your head. Sure, you might know 10x what you used to know a year ago, so in your mind you feel like a genuis, but consider for a moment that your experience is a drop in the bucket compared to someone who has been in the sport for 5, 10, or 15 years more than you.

I can assure you from experience that the learning does not end, it builds upon itself for many years to come.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 19, 2012, 9:13 AM
Post #29 of 150 (1327 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My question here is first he said "canopy was uncontroleable" which is clearly not the case. He had Unstowed his toggles for 15 seconds before he even did enough Of a control check to discover his right side was knotted. Control check? He never actually did one! C'mon. A student would have done a "pump the breaks" and caught this at a higher and safer altitude.

Then he accused the packer. Which shows he doesnt even know or care to find out what really caused the hang up. He then flew his ENTIRE reserve approach in half breaks had no flare left on landing. Where he was taught to fly any canopy like that I would be afraid to know. Plus the guys main was a 7 cell. land on the rears.

Criticize me and my set up? I have taken the advice of dz pros who know me have watched me fly over 90% of my jumps. This canopy and loading may get me flamed for my expirience level but dont worry it is a calculated descision. I do respect your concern.

Thank you for your comments everybody.
At this stage of your skydiving, you are obviously too ignorant to realize how stupid you appear.
Could this canopy have been landed? Probably, but landing on rears is not the easiest thing to do, especially with one brake partially set and the other released.
Could the problem have been caught sooner? Possibly, but it wasn't.
Did he "create" his own problem. Definitely, but we all can and will make mistakes.
Did he fixate on the problem? No, he made a decision and executed it in a controlled manner.
He made an "off DZ landing" in half brakes, then got up and walked away. That's sure not what we teach.
As to your canopy selection and the advice of your "DZ Pros", I have no problem with that, "because you're a grown-ass man and can make your own decisions."Wink


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 9:19 AM
Post #30 of 150 (1325 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DaVinciflies] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Valid saying it would have been Unusual inputs to land.
Hmm I am out numbered for some reason. I guess I shouldn't judge this harshly if I wast the guy under canopy etc. easy to couch jump I guess


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 19, 2012, 9:25 AM
Post #31 of 150 (1318 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Hmm I am out numbered for some reason

The reason is that you're wrong. By going on to defend your position on this, and some other things, you're proving that you're looking at things from the wrong end. You're on the bottom of the totem pole at this point, but you're making judgements and statements like guy several notches up from you.

Here's something to think about, and it pretains to more than just this thread, it can be applied to your overall mdinset moving forward - How do you think this thread would have turned out if the title was something like 'Stuck brake cutaway', and your opening post was something like, 'Hey guys, what do you think of this cutaway? It looks like he might have made that knot himself, but in any case, couldn't he just land on rears?'.

See? No accusations, no judgements, but an open mind and looking for opinions/viewpoints.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #32 of 150 (1307 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Haha. Just an example of reserve abuse that caught my attention. Thought it should be pointed out.

Actually I'd call it main abuse, wide open area like that...I would have followed it down.

Poor thing was layin' out in a field all alone and scared!


JohnRich  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 9:47 AM
Post #33 of 150 (1295 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings.

Tell us what, specifically, you think he lacks.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 19, 2012, 10:00 AM
Post #34 of 150 (1283 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
title was something like 'Stuck brake cutaway', and your opening post was something like, 'Hey guys, what do you think of this cutaway? It looks like he might have made that knot himself, but in any case, couldn't he just land on rears?'.

1 - Nice note, Dave, as always ^ (I'd even say that's a better presentation for people with thousands of jumps too - allows open discussion etc etc)

2 - note the OP did also sorta mea culpa ("I guess I shouldn't judge this harshly if I wasn't the guy under canopy etc. easy to couch jump I guess") to the knee jerk judgment finally - with that, I'd probably stop busting him on it

3 - as for the swooping and jumping that size Crossfire at 150 jumps? I'd keep busting him for a bit - it's still worth it to save a decent new jumper from hurting himself


Edit: watched the vid - I think the kid did a fine job. Personally, I'd have landed it, but the cutaway is absolutely a valid choice. Personally, I eyeball my toggle grab specifically and watch to avoid that mistake in grab (picking up the toggle through the excess line). Frankly, that scenario was highlighted in Parachutist exactly just a few months ago. (I hate to admit getting something good from the magazine, it hurts a bit Laugh). The stow method on my Mirage does not preclude this scenario but does make it rather unlikely, the method I use on my Odyssey does - there's a few dozen ways to stow excess steering line (without velcro please), a good rigger can advise some of the better ways.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 19, 2012, 10:08 AM)


wildcard451  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 10:40 AM
Post #35 of 150 (1243 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually proper procedure in this situation would clearly be to take out his hook knife, cut both main steering lines so that he may land on his rears, unencumbered by any drag applied by steering line tension.

After a minimum of a 270 degree front riser approach, of course.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jul 19, 2012, 11:01 AM
Post #36 of 150 (1236 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Quote:
Container: Wonderhog
Main: Super Evolution 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
Reserve: Nova 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
AAD: FXC Model 12000

You gotta be an old fart.

A tid bit of history here:

The Nova 7 was an actual reserve canopy that never went into full production. It was in fact, TSO'd and a few were built! Chris Gay had a 77 sq ft model IIRC.

Quite the swoop machine BTW!

MEL


Sky_doggy  (C 41295)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:04 PM
Post #37 of 150 (1190 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ufk22] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello,

Hey pj_jumper, thanks for posting this clip, I have learn't a bunch from this thread.

I am new to the sport and I wouldn't have given a second thought to cutting this situation away, but hey, I am serious "chicken shit" when it comes to risk. I have been practicing turning, stalling an flaring on the rears, but I can't see myself trying it for real.

I am curious as to why he chose to land in half brake. Could someone share with me the logic of doing this.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:09 PM
Post #38 of 150 (1182 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Sky_doggy] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me just discredit myself before someone else here does. A cutaway seems like a reasonable option here and I may be wrong saying otherwise. However yes I do wonder why he flew his res like that.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:14 PM
Post #39 of 150 (1172 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Sky_doggy] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am curious as to why he chose to land in half brake. Could someone share with me the logic of doing this.

The video may be misleading. At least some of that may be from the fact that reserve risers are short, so the reserve toggles start out low.


Sky_doggy  (C 41295)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:23 PM
Post #40 of 150 (1159 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sundevil777] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, and that is in part why I asked. A friend of mine (D + 1000 jumps) whacked herself pretty badly by stalling a micro raven at about 10' off the ground. It had a very short toggle stroke.

I plan on renting a PDR 176 next season from PD and learn how to land it. Before that I have to get smart enough at packing so it doesn't open super fast at terminal. Frown


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:24 PM
Post #41 of 150 (1159 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sundevil777] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I am curious as to why he chose to land in half brake. Could someone share with me the logic of doing this.

The video may be misleading. At least some of that may be from the fact that reserve risers are short, so the reserve toggles start out low.

I just noticed that he did NOT wave off before he pulled.... everything else imho was done right. He made a decision, altitude aware, and he is not hurt. Seems like he did a great job to me. OP... I hope one of the pros you are talking about has the fortitude to tell you that you are out of your league on that canopy.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:27 PM
Post #42 of 150 (1159 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Re: braked approach & landing

The landing area appears (to my eye) to have numerous concrete lined irrigation ditches. It is entirely possible that he may have been flying in brakes as an accuracy approach to avoid these obstacles.

Yes, landing parallel to the ditches would have been an option. However, wind direction & speed may have influenced his decision about that.


JackC1

Jul 19, 2012, 12:30 PM
Post #43 of 150 (1154 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sundevil777] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks to me like he did that to himself. At 1:47 you see him pull the toggle through the loop in the excess brake line that had come unstowed (or wasn't stowed properly when it was last packed). If that's what he did, it was an avoidable malfunction.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Jul 19, 2012, 12:31 PM)


Decodiver  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:45 PM
Post #44 of 150 (1136 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Haha. Just an example of reserve abuse that caught my attention. Thought it should be pointed out.

And what are you, the reserve Police?

The guy decided he couldn't land it, he cut away at his hard deck and landed under a fully functioning reserve.

WTF is wrong with that?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #45 of 150 (1123 views)
Shortcut
Re: [wildcard451] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Actually proper procedure in this situation would clearly be to take out his hook knife, cut both main steering lines so that he may land on his rears, unencumbered by any drag applied by steering line tension.

After a minimum of a 270 degree front riser approach, of course.

Just for learning - How many here comfy with landing it - would cut the steering lines (if they had a hook knife - I do on one rig). I would. Then it's easier to fly on rears without having to balance out the bound side.

If not - how many would just fly compensated (crooked hands, crooked flare) - vs taking a wrap or two on the unaffected side and then flying on rears (knowing that the steering lines are slightly short now). I think I'd opt for the wrap, but I want to think on it. Hopefully all high enough to take some practice turns and flares....

1st option - cut the lines and land on rears
2nd option (no knife) - balance the steering lines and land on rears
3rd option (no knife) - just fly crooked hands

caviat - if any of these don't pass the in flight test (turn turn flare), cutaway of course

that little short steering line extension is cheap and quick to replace


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 19, 2012, 12:58 PM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 19, 2012, 12:55 PM
Post #46 of 150 (1119 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Looks to me like he did that to himself. At 1:47 you see him pull the toggle through the loop in the excess brake line that had come unstowed (or wasn't stowed properly when it was last packed). If that's what he did, it was an avoidable malfunction.

absolutely that's what it looks like - he only seemed to blame the packers for the loop coming unstowed, not for his poor grab


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 1:07 PM
Post #47 of 150 (1100 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Looks to me like he did that to himself. At 1:47 you see him pull the toggle through the loop in the excess brake line that had come unstowed (or wasn't stowed properly when it was last packed). If that's what he did, it was an avoidable malfunction.

absolutely that's what it looks like - he only seemed to blame the packers for the loop coming unstowed, not for his poor grab

It's why when I leave my rig with a packer, I generally leave it with the toggles and the excess already stowed, the way I like it. Lessens the chance of it not being the way I like it when it opens.


in2jumping  (C License)

Jul 19, 2012, 1:25 PM
Post #48 of 150 (1085 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do respect your concern.

I am not concern at all. Could care less what you jump, as long as you dont take anyone out.

I was just pointing out that what you are doing is FAR more Dangerous and stupid than cutting away a break line malfunction.


JohnRich  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 1:54 PM
Post #49 of 150 (1055 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do wonder why he flew his res like that.

Like what? There seems to be a presumption that he flew it in at half brakes, but from my viewing of that video, his arms aren't in view of the camera for about 95% of the reserve ride down. So I don't think one can conclude that he was at half-brakes all that time.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 19, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #50 of 150 (1053 views)
Shortcut
Re: [NWFlyer] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Looks to me like he did that to himself. At 1:47 you see him pull the toggle through the loop in the excess brake line that had come unstowed (or wasn't stowed properly when it was last packed). If that's what he did, it was an avoidable malfunction.

absolutely that's what it looks like - he only seemed to blame the packers for the loop coming unstowed, not for his poor grab

It's why when I leave my rig with a packer, I generally leave it with the toggles and the excess already stowed, the way I like it. Lessens the chance of it not being the way I like it when it opens.

For that matter, I know a few (few) jumpers that don't even stow the excess. Yet they don't seem to reach through and create fun and exciting knots.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 2:22 PM
Post #51 of 150 (1483 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

This is one thing I think is critical. Pack your own rig whenever possible is a good policy.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 3:19 PM
Post #52 of 150 (1459 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok this obviously makes more sense to approach this than what I said.
Live and learn. I didn't mean to be judgemental just spark up a debate more or less.


format  (B 15348)

Jul 19, 2012, 3:20 PM
Post #53 of 150 (1459 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pack your own rig whenever possible is a good policy.

and whoever packed it - don't pull command line through ANYTHING


Iago  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 3:20 PM
Post #54 of 150 (1460 views)
Shortcut
Re: [masterrigger1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Quote:
Container: Wonderhog
Main: Super Evolution 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
Reserve: Nova 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
AAD: FXC Model 12000

You gotta be an old fart.

A tid bit of history here:

The Nova 7 was an actual reserve canopy that never went into full production. It was in fact, TSO'd and a few were built! Chris Gay had a 77 sq ft model IIRC.

Quite the swoop machine BTW!

MEL

And if you ever got bored with the Nova, you could flip it around and it became an Avon !

I know a jumper or two that still fly their F111 Nova as a main. They say they great canopies and it was the ZP ones that got everyone killed. Don't know if that's true, just what they said.


(This post was edited by Iago on Jul 19, 2012, 3:27 PM)


Iago  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 3:32 PM
Post #55 of 150 (1440 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Sky_doggy] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hello,

Hey pj_jumper, thanks for posting this clip, I have learn't a bunch from this thread.

I am new to the sport and I wouldn't have given a second thought to cutting this situation away, but hey, I am serious "chicken shit" when it comes to risk. I have been practicing turning, stalling an flaring on the rears, but I can't see myself trying it for real.

I am curious as to why he chose to land in half brake. Could someone share with me the logic of doing this.

You're not chicken shit. I've got a thousand plus and I would have chopped that shit. Flying on the rears takes a lot of effort and you've only got about 1-2 inches of control. Trying to flare on the rears with a canopy that had a brake knot and a built-in turn could easily have screwed you into the ground.

Take it up high and pull one rear as hard as you can and see what happens. Wheeeeee!


DaVinciflies

Jul 19, 2012, 3:46 PM
Post #56 of 150 (1427 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Sky_doggy] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am new to the sport and I wouldn't have given a second thought to cutting this situation away, but hey, I am serious "chicken shit" when it comes to risk. I have been practicing turning, stalling an flaring on the rears, but I can't see myself trying it for real.

That's given more information on which to base your decision to chop it.
Good stuff!


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Jul 19, 2012, 3:54 PM
Post #57 of 150 (1415 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

"Pack your own whenever pissible"

Really?

Packing had little, if anything, to do with this incident.

The paid packers who I know generally pack better than many experienced jumpers. Admittedly, my DZ has high standards for packers.

I know lots of jumpers who are better off paying packers than packing for themselves.


lookoutbelow  (A 63826)

Jul 19, 2012, 4:10 PM
Post #58 of 150 (1411 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Looks to me like he did that to himself. At 1:47 you see him pull the toggle through the loop in the excess brake line that had come unstowed (or wasn't stowed properly when it was last packed). If that's what he did, it was an avoidable malfunction.

That does seem to be it exactly. When watching the video I was trying to figure out just what exactly happened. It wasn't obvious to this noob. Pulled out my rig and it didn't take me long to reproduce it. I guess I just learned one more thing. I'm sure if the line had become unstowed like that on me before now, it wouldn't have occurred to me how cautious I'd have to be. So regardless of the intent of posting the video, I'm glad it was posted and discussed.


excaza  (C License)

Jul 19, 2012, 4:16 PM
Post #59 of 150 (1408 views)
Shortcut
Re: [lookoutbelow] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm kinda glad I saw this video, sometimes I've accidentally pulled out the stow instead of the toggle, I didn't realize it could potentially do something like this!


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jul 19, 2012, 4:33 PM
Post #60 of 150 (1398 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

You'd rather have one more cut-away and reserve ride than regret not having one.

He saved his live, job well done!


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 19, 2012, 4:38 PM
Post #61 of 150 (1395 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

I had basically the same thing happen (knotted steering line around my RDS grommet - my fault) and I took a wrap on the good toggle to straighten her out and landed on rears. Velo 96 loaded at 2.2.

I fly on rears all the time though, and land on them a lot even when I have two good toggles. Never thought about cutting the bad brake line, until someone asked me after why I didn't.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jul 19, 2012, 5:02 PM
Post #62 of 150 (1389 views)
Shortcut
Re: [masterrigger1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Quote:
Container: Wonderhog
Main: Super Evolution 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
Reserve: Nova 120 ft (3.50 lbs/ft)
AAD: FXC Model 12000

You gotta be an old fart.

A tid bit of history here:

The Nova 7 was an actual reserve canopy that never went into full production. It was in fact, TSO'd and a few were built! Chris Gay had a 77 sq ft model IIRC.

Quite the swoop machine BTW!

MEL

The Nova: The canopy that flew great till it collapsed.

They just never figured out how to market that. Laugh


(This post was edited by CSpenceFLY on Jul 19, 2012, 5:06 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 19, 2012, 6:36 PM
Post #63 of 150 (1347 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I fly on rears all the time though, and land on them a lot even when I have two good toggles. Never thought about cutting the bad brake line, until someone asked me after why I didn't.

A good reason not to cut the offending brake line is that it's not as simple as it seems. As someone else mentioned, you would need to cut both of them to make a 'symetrical' canopy, because even in full flight the brake lines hold tail in place and in line with the rest of the canopy.

Additionally, if you cut both brake lines, and allow the tail to fly free, your rear riser flare will only effect the canopy from the mid-chord to the D-lines, as the tail won't be suspended (or suspend any weight) at all. So your effective flying area will be reduced, and in turn your stall speed will go up, and flare effectiveness will go down.

Even when ladning only on rears, the steering lines hold the tail in place and allow it to take some of the load during the plane-out and flare. This is true on any canopy, and BASE jumpers will confirm that even their BASE canopies come in different when they have to toss their toggles to clear a line-over.

If you're flying a Velo at 2.2, you should be good enough to compensate for the knotted brake line, and get enough flare out of the rears (or one rear, one toggle) in order to have a 'good' landing. If you're flying a Velo at any loading and don't feel confident in your ability to do that, you're in over your head.

This is the prime example for choosing a canopy for the worst case scenario. If this mal had occured below the hard deck, you would be stuck landing the comprimised canopy, and this is where your canopy should be forgiving enough to make up for your lack of skill. If you don't feel like you could land your canopy like the one in the video, you should either be focused on improving your canopy piloting skills as job one, or looking for a bigger or more doclie canopy (or both).

I'm not suggesting that everyone should choose to land such a canopy if they're presented with it, much to the contrarty. If you prefer to land a more functional canopy, by all means cutaway. What I'm saying is that not everyone has the luxury of altitude like the jumper in the video, and if you should end up there, you should be ready for that with sufficient canopy piloting skills and a canopy to match.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 19, 2012, 7:30 PM
Post #64 of 150 (1322 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"Pack your own whenever pissible"

Really?

Packing had little, if anything, to do with this incident.

The paid packers who I know generally pack better than many experienced jumpers. Admittedly, my DZ has high standards for packers.

I know lots of jumpers who are better off paying packers than packing for themselves.

packing was almost no factor. but pack your own rig is a good policy. i believe its part of the sport that you should learn as well as any. this jumper in the video does not. i wish i were rich like him


aussiechick  (D License)

Jul 19, 2012, 8:47 PM
Post #65 of 150 (1288 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Don't criticize someone for choosing to chop a malfunctioning main just because YOU think you would have landed it.

You'd feel like an even bigger dick if you broke yourself on landing, all the while having a nice unused reserve still in your container.

He landed. He was unhurt. It was the right decision for HIM.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 19, 2012, 8:53 PM
Post #66 of 150 (1285 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
as the tail won't be suspended (or suspend any weight) at all.

I do wonder though, to what degree it is true. Certainly a tail unsupported by brake lines on opening can flip up. Old Bridge day videos show openings that sucked when misrigged brake likes blew and the tail folded upwards initially -- but later the canopy flew without much distortion.

The tail should be stiff enough through internal pressure to stay in place when simply rear riser flaring. For example, if one has a swoop canopy, the tail doesn't totally distort just because you have an extra 6" slack in your brake lines. The tail doesn't start to fold upwards. Nor does it flip up in the center section where there are no brake lines to begin with. If you are starting a rear riser flare, the tail is only supported fully in the first place if you're on a canopy with Spectra brake lines that have shrunk to zero slack. So normally, internal pressure will keep the tail reasonably in the right place even under the small additional forces from a rear riser flare.

So I'm half way on this: An unsupported tail may distort and add a hazard, but I don't think things will automatically go bad.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 19, 2012, 10:32 PM
Post #67 of 150 (1261 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

I just spent a bunch of time reading this entire thread.

PJ_Jumper... If you're afraid to use your researve given ample altitude under these conditions, buy a bowling ball and some striped shoes.Tongue You need to have complete confidence in your reserve and the guy or gal (probly not you) who packed it. Good luck in your continued skydiving endevors. Please don't make me update my "Bounce Bingo" cards.

@ the guy in the video... Nice cutaway! I'd of done the same thing. In air rigging, even cutting break lines, is not a good idea. Smile


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 19, 2012, 10:50 PM
Post #68 of 150 (1253 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Criticize me and my set up? I have taken the advice of dz pros who know me have watched me fly over 90% of my jumps. This canopy and loading may get me flamed for my expirience level but dont worry it is a calculated descision. I do respect your concern.


What you are trying to do is convince yourself and us is that you are better at 150 jumps than all the jumpers on this list.

Good luck you will need it.

Sparky

http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/...p;LessonsOperator=OR


format  (B 15348)

Jul 19, 2012, 11:22 PM
Post #69 of 150 (1241 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mjosparky] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In order to convince him you have to jump Smile


JackC1

Jul 20, 2012, 12:26 AM
Post #70 of 150 (1224 views)
Shortcut
Re: [lookoutbelow] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Looks to me like he did that to himself. At 1:47 you see him pull the toggle through the loop in the excess brake line that had come unstowed (or wasn't stowed properly when it was last packed). If that's what he did, it was an avoidable malfunction.

That does seem to be it exactly. When watching the video I was trying to figure out just what exactly happened. It wasn't obvious to this noob. Pulled out my rig and it didn't take me long to reproduce it. I guess I just learned one more thing. I'm sure if the line had become unstowed like that on me before now, it wouldn't have occurred to me how cautious I'd have to be. So regardless of the intent of posting the video, I'm glad it was posted and discussed.

SmileSmile

I once had this very problem, except my finger was stuck in the knot, so I had no choice but to land it. The trick is to pay attention as to how you put your fingers in the toggle before you pop the brakes. I also tend to pack with the excess stowed to the inside of the riser so if it comes loose, it's hopefully held away from my fingers.


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Jul 20, 2012, 2:53 AM
Post #71 of 150 (1195 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I once had this very problem, except my finger was stuck in the knot]/reply]

Yup, me too. I freed it eventually, but it scared 50-jump me to the point where I still always, always look at what I'm doing when I reach for the toggles.


michalm21  (Student)

Jul 20, 2012, 5:41 AM
Post #72 of 150 (1128 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretty much identical thing happened to me last weekend.
I always pack for myself, couldn't believe I'd stow my brake carelessly like that but it happened.

I decided to cut the lower brake line and land on rears but I also thought of cutting away (for too long let me add)

I don't think he did a wrong thing. In terms of his other actions it's subjective to judge from this video and description.


Ron

Jul 20, 2012, 7:18 AM
Post #73 of 150 (1086 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
By swooping I only mean attempts at accelerated landings. Be it front riser dives. Or 90s. But always with altitude to spare.

Do you think anyone EVER did a turn to final low on purpose? Don't you think they ALL thought they would be fine?

Quote:
I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

The guy had a canopy he didn't feel was safe to land. He made a choice and correctly executed that choice. You may not agree with his choice.... But how many malfunctions have you handled?

Me, I have 9 cutaways and 5500+ jumps and I think the guy did the right thing. I might not have done the same thing - but it was not my ass in the saddle, it was his.


Ron

Jul 20, 2012, 7:46 AM
Post #74 of 150 (1074 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Sky_doggy] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am curious as to why he chose to land in half brake. Could someone share with me the logic of doing this.

With the correct sized canopy, landing in half brakes and doing a PLF is a very valid option. If you recall your FJC "go to half brakes and prepare to PLF" was most likely mentioned several times during the emergency landing portion of the course.

Was it necessary here? Most likely not, but it didn't hurt anything.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 20, 2012, 7:47 AM
Post #75 of 150 (1072 views)
Shortcut
Re: [format] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In order to convince him you have to jump Smile

That was awesome! LaughLaugh


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 20, 2012, 8:27 AM
Post #76 of 150 (1655 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had basically the same thing happen (knotted steering line around my RDS grommet - my fault) and I took a wrap on the good toggle to straighten her out and landed on rears. Velo 96 loaded at 2.2.

I fly on rears all the time though, and land on them a lot even when I have two good toggles. Never thought about cutting the bad brake line, until someone asked me after why I didn't.

thanks, I'd do the same thing (wrap the other line to balance, and then fly rears) even if I had my knife - as long as it's not TOO many wraps to balance. That could seriously mess with the riser flare. Also, Dave's note on cutting lines applies, especially for smaller canopies.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 20, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #77 of 150 (1645 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pchapman] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

>Old Bridge day videos show openings that sucked when misrigged brake likes blew
>and the tail folded upwards initially -- but later the canopy flew without much
>distortion.

Depends on the canopy. Several sorts of canopies (Swifts, a Clipper Sprint, a Z-Po) had their tails fold up even during normal flight with released brakes. All older designs; I haven't been to Bridge Day in a while so I don't know if newer canopies have this issue.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 20, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #78 of 150 (1609 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think I'd ever cut the line in that situation. If I had to take too many wraps to get it flying straight, it becomes a control problem and I'd chop it.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jul 20, 2012, 10:15 AM
Post #79 of 150 (1605 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

I've watched the video several times in an attempt to read the altitude but I can't really make it out. Can anybody read what altitude he pulled at? When he noticed the brake line? when he pulled reserve?

It does seem as though he spent a long time fiddling with his brake line (after not noticing the problem for a while) but also had a good bit of time under his reserve, so I am guessing he pulled on the high side.

EDIT: OK, watched it again, looks like he is at 3000 when his dytter goes off and he pulls). He does something with his chest strap before he unstows his toggles, but it doesn't look really loose. I can't quite see where the altimeter is at 1:58 of the video. Look like 2500ish? Can't read it again at 2:29. Looks like he is under his reserve @1000 ft at 2:49.

it is awfully hard to read that altimeter on the video.


(This post was edited by Southern_Man on Jul 20, 2012, 10:23 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 20, 2012, 10:39 AM
Post #80 of 150 (1588 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think I'd ever cut the line in that situation. If I had to take too many wraps to get it flying straight, it becomes a control problem and I'd chop it.

agreed for your canopy or even mine - (referencing Dave's not on losing all that surface area aft of the D line attachment)

bigger ones - I have no issue cutting a steering line (but I'd still do both) and landing on rears if I had to wrap up the opposite line too much


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 20, 2012, 8:12 PM
Post #81 of 150 (1533 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

agreed for your canopy or even mine - (referencing Dave's not on losing all that surface area aft of the D line attachment)

bigger ones - I have no issue cutting a steering line (but I'd still do both) and landing on rears if I had to wrap up the opposite line too much

Hmmm? Not sure I'd spend the time/altitude messing around. Gotta trust your reserve.

I think it's good to mention your experience level and understanding of the equipment. Newbs or lower time jumpers should be sticking to EP's. Guys like you with thousands of jumps may have time/experience to take these more advanced measures. Cool


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 22, 2012, 8:32 AM
Post #82 of 150 (1408 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rehmwa] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Your right 150 jumps is low for a 1.4 on a Xfire. Just to let everyone know I'm at 166 now so all good. Crisis averted


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 22, 2012, 9:34 AM
Post #83 of 150 (1390 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Plus the guys main was a 7 cell. land on the rears.

What does the canopy being a 7 cell have to do with landing it on rears?


5.samadhi

Jul 22, 2012, 10:05 AM
Post #84 of 150 (1374 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Your right 150 jumps is low for a 1.4 on a Xfire. Just to let everyone know I'm at 166 now so all good. Crisis averted
its not that we dont believe you can land well for 16 jumps without getting hurt.

You could probably easily land a velocity loaded at 2.2:1 in ideal circumstances.

Its that in the worst possible scenario most experience people doubt you have the safety margin with 1.4 WL to deal successfully. That takes hundreds of jumps to build up experience so that you can stay safe in all possible scenarios.

Why would you want your hobby to be a ticking time bomb (sooner or later kind of thing).

enough said...I have thought these thoughts out based on personal experience and advice given from close friends/mentors.

After 3 years of skydiving and over 300 jumps I still jump a 1.2 because a safety margin is nice.


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Jul 22, 2012, 10:07 AM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 22, 2012, 10:55 AM
Post #85 of 150 (1355 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Advice noted. By swooping I only mean attempts at accelerated landings. Be it front riser dives. Or 90s. But always with altitude to spare. The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings. I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

And on top of all your other madd skilz, you're psychic. That's pretty awesome.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 22, 2012, 10:56 AM
Post #86 of 150 (1355 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Your right 150 jumps is low for a 1.4 on a Xfire. Just to let everyone know I'm at 166 now so all good. Crisis averted
its not that we dont believe you can land well for 16 jumps without getting hurt.

You could probably easily land a velocity loaded at 2.2:1 in ideal circumstances.

Its that in the worst possible scenario most experience people doubt you have the safety margin with 1.4 WL to deal successfully. That takes hundreds of jumps to build up experience so that you can stay safe in all possible scenarios.

Why would you want your hobby to be a ticking time bomb (sooner or later kind of thing).

enough said...I have thought these thoughts out based on personal experience and advice given from close friends/mentors.

After 3 years of skydiving and over 300 jumps I still jump a 1.2 because a safety margin is nice.

I suppose I should be more afraid of canopy flying etc however as a licensed pilot and now 6 years in aviation since i was 19 for better or worse I am comfortable with flight.
I agree of course no matter what, my safety margin is narrowed by my canopy choice etc. It's fun as hell tho.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 22, 2012, 10:59 AM
Post #87 of 150 (1355 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Advice noted. By swooping I only mean attempts at accelerated landings. Be it front riser dives. Or 90s. But always with altitude to spare. The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings. I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

And on top of all your other madd skilz, you're psychic. That's pretty awesome.

"Madd skilz" what are you? 14?


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jul 22, 2012, 11:14 AM
Post #88 of 150 (1344 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"Madd skilz" what are you? 14?

It's used as a derogatory remark to signify individuals who perceive their skills as better than they actually are.

Simply put, there's been too many people who have downsized too early and killed or seriously injured themselves. Believe it or not, derogatory remarks aside, no one want to see YOU hurt. SmileSmileSmile

If you want to progress quickly by all means do so, get a zillion jumps in, go and seek the best canopy pilots in the world and learn from them, plan your career to be a great canopy pilot. However at the minute most of the regulars on here are of the opinion that at the minute you're flying a ticking time bomb.


(This post was edited by adamUK on Jul 22, 2012, 11:15 AM)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jul 22, 2012, 11:19 AM
Post #89 of 150 (1337 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Advice noted. By swooping I only mean attempts at accelerated landings. Be it front riser dives. Or 90s. But always with altitude to spare. The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings. I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

And on top of all your other madd skilz, you're psychic. That's pretty awesome.

"Madd skilz" what are you? 14?

Nope. He's been around long enough to recognize you. And he's seen all the other "youse" (if that's a word) that came before.
People who are in way, way over their head and don't even realize it.
Who are "special" or "skilled" or who will "be careful" or who have "the approval of the professionals at their DZ'.

Some of them get lucky and never crash and go on to become experienced canopy pilots. Many of those later tell the new guys that "I was stupid and lucky. Don't do what I did."
Some get scared or hurt just a little and learn.
Others get hurt badly enough to be in the hospital for a while and learn. Some keep jumping, some give it up voluntarily, some give it up because they are too damaged to ever jump again.
Some even get hurt badly (ICU for a couple days, hospital for a week or so) but heal well enough that the can keep jumping, but still haven't learned yet. I know one of those.
Some only learn in the last 2 or 3 seconds of their life before they hit the ground and die.

He and some of the others telling you that you are making a bad choice actually care. They've seen "You" before and don't want to see what happened to some of them happen to you.

But it's your choice.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 22, 2012, 11:36 AM
Post #90 of 150 (1326 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Advice noted. By swooping I only mean attempts at accelerated landings. Be it front riser dives. Or 90s. But always with altitude to spare. The jumper in this video lacks certain understandings. I highly doubt much besides altitude, his toggle and damn packers went through his mind

And on top of all your other madd skilz, you're psychic. That's pretty awesome.

"Madd skilz" what are you? 14?

I'm trying to be one of the cool kids. I hear they get to hang out with you.

Seriously dood, your trolling techniques are old. Bu, bye.


(This post was edited by chuckakers on Jul 22, 2012, 11:46 AM)


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 22, 2012, 12:32 PM
Post #91 of 150 (1309 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ufk22] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My question here is first he said "canopy was uncontroleable" which is clearly not the case. He had Unstowed his toggles for 15 seconds before he even did enough Of a control check to discover his right side was knotted. Control check? He never actually did one! C'mon. A student would have done a "pump the breaks" and caught this at a higher and safer altitude.

Then he accused the packer. Which shows he doesnt even know or care to find out what really caused the hang up. He then flew his ENTIRE reserve approach in half breaks had no flare left on landing. Where he was taught to fly any canopy like that I would be afraid to know. Plus the guys main was a 7 cell. land on the rears.

Criticize me and my set up? I have taken the advice of dz pros who know me have watched me fly over 90% of my jumps. This canopy and loading may get me flamed for my expirience level but dont worry it is a calculated descision. I do respect your concern.

Thank you for your comments everybody.
At this stage of your skydiving, you are obviously too ignorant to realize how stupid you appear.
Could this canopy have been landed? Probably, but landing on rears is not the easiest thing to do, especially with one brake partially set and the other released.
Could the problem have been caught sooner? Possibly, but it wasn't.
Did he "create" his own problem. Definitely, but we all can and will make mistakes.
Did he fixate on the problem? No, he made a decision and executed it in a controlled manner.
He made an "off DZ landing" in half brakes, then got up and walked away. That's sure not what we teach.
As to your canopy selection and the advice of your "DZ Pros", I have no problem with that, "because you're a grown-ass man and can make your own decisions."Wink
OK, I take it back, you're NOT ignorant, at least not after all the advice you've been given on this forum.
You're just stupid!!
waste of time going any further with this one.....


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 22, 2012, 3:46 PM
Post #92 of 150 (1274 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 Just get back to your original post.

Can you clarify exactly what you meant by "very dangerous" when talking about the cutaway.

Its quite clear that the jumper was not stupid to chop his main. I`m intrigued to know what you thought was dangerous about it.....


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jul 22, 2012, 6:30 PM
Post #93 of 150 (1249 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Your right 150 jumps is low for a 1.4 on a Xfire. Just to let everyone know I'm at 166 now so all good. Crisis averted
its not that we dont believe you can land well for 16 jumps without getting hurt.

You could probably easily land a velocity loaded at 2.2:1 in ideal circumstances.

Its that in the worst possible scenario most experience people doubt you have the safety margin with 1.4 WL to deal successfully. That takes hundreds of jumps to build up experience so that you can stay safe in all possible scenarios.

Why would you want your hobby to be a ticking time bomb (sooner or later kind of thing).

enough said...I have thought these thoughts out based on personal experience and advice given from close friends/mentors.

After 3 years of skydiving and over 300 jumps I still jump a 1.2 because a safety margin is nice.

I suppose I should be more afraid of canopy flying etc however as a licensed pilot and now 6 years in aviation since i was 19 for better or worse I am comfortable with flight.
I agree of course no matter what, my safety margin is narrowed by my canopy choice etc. It's fun as hell tho.


I thought the same thing. Commercial pilot with about 1400 hrs when I broke my back on a straight in on front risers landing when I had about 150 jumps. I'd have to go look for the actual jump number.

There have been many like you and many more to come. You aren't special.


5.samadhi

Jul 22, 2012, 7:01 PM
Post #94 of 150 (1229 views)
Shortcut
Re: [CSpenceFLY] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

its a hard lesson to learn - that you're not special and you might make a mistake - especially for such ego-driven people that often are attracted to fringe sports like skydiving.

Your posts (PJ) strike me as being very ego-driven. Anybody who has spent even a season hanging out on a dropzone on the weekends has seen many like you (they all have done something 'extreme' in the past which qualifies them from an exemption from mistakes).

I learned my lesson and I only had to rest for 4 weeks after my injury...I'm a lucky one Tongue


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 22, 2012, 7:24 PM
Post #95 of 150 (1223 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I suppose I should be more afraid of canopy flying etc however as a licensed pilot and now 6 years in aviation since i was 19 for better or worse I am comfortable with flight.
I agree of course no matter what, my safety margin is narrowed by my canopy choice etc. It's fun as hell tho.

How many engine out's did you have without a good runway to aim for?

We don't have the luxury of being able to go around if our approach isn't good enough this time. Sometimes you even end up trying to figure out where the hell you are. I won't go into the details of this clip, but can you honestly say you could do the same/better? Downwind none the less?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqoxnwxF3CA

Yes I know, spot sucked, pulled low, blah blah, again the reasons behind the off landing are nobody here's business. Wink


Sky_doggy  (C 41295)

Jul 22, 2012, 7:36 PM
Post #96 of 150 (1215 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, awesome job. That's enough to make me want to practice my canopy skills on every jump. Phew..... BTW I have 2000 hours on various fixed wing aircraft including sailplanes and I am very very respectful of flying canopies, it's a very different game!!!


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 22, 2012, 7:44 PM
Post #97 of 150 (1212 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Sky_doggy] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow, awesome job. That's enough to make me want to practice my canopy skills on every jump. Phew..... BTW I have 2000 hours on various fixed wing aircraft including sailplanes and I am very very respectful of flying canopies, it's a very different game!!!

Yup, I was low, adrenaline was flowing, had to do the heavy breathing (you can hear it at the end of the video) to keep my helmet from fogging up (in thru nose, out thru mouth port).

Roads had power lines both sides and crossing them, there was one other lane I could've taken off to the right along the fence lines, but I saw a power line pole right in the middle of it so I decided not to.

I could've downsized more by now but I know for a fact I can do this on my canopy (Safire2 169 @ 1.2), that's Cool enough for me. Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 22, 2012, 9:42 PM
Post #98 of 150 (1187 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

>I suppose I should be more afraid of canopy flying etc . . .

Yes, you should be. If you get killed, the odds are it will be under canopy.

> however as a licensed pilot and now 6 years in aviation since i was 19 for better or
>worse I am comfortable with flight.

I've been teaching for about 15 years now, and the scariest students I've had have been the ones who are sure they are going to be fine because they have:

-fast reactions because they ride motorcycles and are used to speed
-excellent flight skills because they took some flying lessons
-are into adrenalin sports and so can handle the pressure

etc etc.

For people like that, the best thing I can hope for is that they reach the point where they realize how little they know BEFORE they need to rely on the skills they've never bothered to learn (because, of course, they ride motorcycles, and so don't need to.)


jrjny  (A License)

Jul 22, 2012, 10:17 PM
Post #99 of 150 (1179 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

something I keep in mind - if I would be hesitant to land downwind on the runway, it's probably too fast. I could getaway with that but I'm loaded at basically 1 to 1. Wouldn't be excited about it but would have confidence.

my 2 cents - not attacking 'ya

Jeff


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:55 AM
Post #100 of 150 (1137 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
-fast reactions because they ride motorcycles and are used to speed

I remember one CCI giving the speech to a guy who used the motorcycle excuse with something along the lines of: "If you find yourself in a situation on a bike then you can slow down and park up. This option is not available to you once you've exited the plane door"


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 23, 2012, 7:51 AM
Post #101 of 150 (1515 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skyjumpenfool] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

agreed for your canopy or even mine - (referencing Dave's not on losing all that surface area aft of the D line attachment)

bigger ones - I have no issue cutting a steering line (but I'd still do both) and landing on rears if I had to wrap up the opposite line too much

Hmmm? Not sure I'd spend the time/altitude messing around. Gotta trust your reserve.

(I know you're asking this for the newbies, Mike. I'll play Laugh)

Hmmmmm? are you saying you don't look at your altitude at all? - If you are going to make a gross generalization, then I am required to respond by asking if you cut away on a simple brake getting knocked loose on opening at 4000 feet? (of course not, if you recognize that's what it is above your hard deck, you'd just release the other one)

IMO - If you have time and altitude to 'spend', go ahead and use it if so inclined - just pay attention and let a control check press the final decision once you get all trimmed up. If you don't that much time, then the quicker answer is the chop, of course. I trust my reserve, but I trust that already open, perfectly good canopy slightly more. (with my canopy, it's typically pretty quick from seeing the problem to determining if it's worth spending any time, they spin up quick when it's bad, and fly pretty nice when it's workable)

stick with your decision hard deck at all times

now, are you still skeptical now that I've had to provide the full picture for the kids?

agree on the comment about your experience and planning apply greatly here - my numbers are at the left, I've had a high speed and a low speed malfunction, a crw wrap/cutaway, and an airplane crash for further pedigree - not great, but a sampling.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 23, 2012, 8:05 AM)


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 23, 2012, 4:02 PM
Post #102 of 150 (1421 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I suppose I should be more afraid of canopy flying etc however as a licensed pilot and now 6 years in aviation since i was 19 for better or worse I am comfortable with flight.
I agree of course no matter what, my safety margin is narrowed by my canopy choice etc. It's fun as hell tho.

How many engine out's did you have without a good runway to aim for?

We don't have the luxury of being able to go around if our approach isn't good enough this time. Sometimes you even end up trying to figure out where the hell you are. I won't go into the details of this clip, but can you honestly say you could do the same/better? Downwind none the less?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqoxnwxF3CA

Yes I know, spot sucked, pulled low, blah blah, again the reasons behind the off landing are nobody here's business. Wink

yeah skeptics would say he was lucky but the s turn on final makes me think he picked his spot. i assume there was no out behind him and downwind was necessary etc yeah not to judge. i dont judge any more here. lol


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 23, 2012, 4:04 PM
Post #103 of 150 (1420 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

He = me. Wink

Yes I picked it, was the most reasonable lz.

The point is, can you do that? Would you even try on your canopy?


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 23, 2012, 4:57 PM
Post #104 of 150 (1398 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

You really don't want to hear my answer. I would rather not contradict your point eitther out of respect.
2000 jumps from now I would be able to perform a landing much like that with a far greater safety margin than I ever could at this moment.

I can accuracy land proficiently with my Safire and so far so good on the Xfire. slide landings are something I am comfortable with as well.
As per my worn out jump pants.
I was comfortable landing my Safire in downwind conditions.

I appreciate your post thank you

I will conclude by saying, in those conditions under what I fly I hope to not find myself there as I would be past my comfort zone.


sunkenstate  (A License)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:03 PM
Post #105 of 150 (1392 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting video. Thanks for posting. My first instinct watching the video (and presumably what I would have done under canopy) would have been to take a wrap to satisfy my control check and land under rears or using the half brake lines.

That said, I'm inexperienced, own a pretty forgiving canopy, and haven't had to chop yet. Still, I've landed it downwind with late flares and came out OK, and actually am not able to totally stall my canopy using steering lines alone. Maybe I would have broken myself this time.

The consensus on here seems to be for chopping.

Certainly food for thought, but then again a malfunction isn't the time for deep thought.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:04 PM
Post #106 of 150 (1393 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
He = me. Wink

Yes I picked it, was the most reasonable lz.

The point is, can you do that? Would you even try on your canopy?

Nice landing btw


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:26 PM
Post #107 of 150 (1375 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

not that this is much of a downwind or anything
but whatever a show of some kind of ability. from a while ago


http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?ns=1&video_id=mfN4RI1B7Ws


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:51 PM
Post #108 of 150 (1360 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You really don't want to hear my answer. I would rather not contradict your point eitther out of respect.
2000 jumps from now I would be able to perform a landing much like that with a far greater safety margin than I ever could at this moment.

I can accuracy land proficiently with my Safire and so far so good on the Xfire. slide landings are something I am comfortable with as well.
As per my worn out jump pants.
I was comfortable landing my Safire in downwind conditions.

I appreciate your post thank you

I will conclude by saying, in those conditions under what I fly I hope to not find myself there as I would be past my comfort zone.

My point was, you never know when 'those conditions' may pop up and bite you in the ass. If you're already barely edging on your comfort level with your good landing area, perhaps you should make yourself more comfortable before you change your wing.


hillson  (D 33134)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:51 PM
Post #109 of 150 (1357 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
not that this is much of a downwind or anything
but whatever a show of some kind of ability. from a while ago


http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?ns=1&video_id=mfN4RI1B7Ws

Assuming it is this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfN4RI1B7Ws...been a while since I've seen someone swoop from the southwest corner. Might of even rated a golf clap from the deck. Crazy


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:52 PM
Post #110 of 150 (1354 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

What was the "pucker" factor on that landing Robert, you seemed pretty breathlessSlySlySly


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 23, 2012, 5:54 PM
Post #111 of 150 (1352 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What was the "pucker" factor on that landing Robert, you seemed pretty breathlessSlySlySly

The landing was sporty. Wink

As I said, the heavy breathing was to calm me down after the jump (keep my fine motor controls) and keep the helmet from fogging up.


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 23, 2012, 6:00 PM
Post #112 of 150 (1347 views)
Shortcut
Re: [hillson] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
not that this is much of a downwind or anything
but whatever a show of some kind of ability. from a while ago


http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?ns=1&video_id=mfN4RI1B7Ws

Assuming it is this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfN4RI1B7Ws...been a while since I've seen someone swoop from the southwest corner. Might of even rated a golf clap from the deck. Crazy
golf clap...hmm not going to get me the girlsis what your saying. Lol


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:38 AM
Post #113 of 150 (1281 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sunkenstate] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Interesting video. Thanks for posting. My first instinct watching the video (and presumably what I would have done under canopy) would have been to take a wrap to satisfy my control check and land under rears or using the half brake lines.

That said, I'm inexperienced, own a pretty forgiving canopy, and haven't had to chop yet. Still, I've landed it downwind with late flares and came out OK, and actually am not able to totally stall my canopy using steering lines alone. Maybe I would have broken myself this time.

The consensus on here seems to be for chopping.

Certainly food for thought, but then again a malfunction isn't the time for deep thought.

I said it earlier and I`ll repeat it ....since people seem to be ignoring the other factors that can injure or kill you trying to land a canopy that needs inputs to keep it flying straight.....

Turbulence close to the ground can collapse your canopy completely. close to the ground your only options are the hospital or morgue.

If you cannot control the canopy easily by the time you reach your hard deck....chop it.

By far the best and safest option.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:40 AM
Post #114 of 150 (1278 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 You haven`t answered my question.

Why was the cutaway, in your opinion, "very dangerous"?.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 24, 2012, 7:04 AM
Post #115 of 150 (1247 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you cannot control the canopy easily by the time you reach your hard deck....chop it.

this is really the only answer

decision, whatever it is, is at your hard deck, based on a control check

What you do before your hard deck (panic, take a wrap to balance the flight, cut the lines, try to clear the knot, eat a sammich, take more pictures with one of your 7 go-pros) is your business, but you have to decide before then whatever you do.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 24, 2012, 7:04 AM)


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 24, 2012, 10:45 AM
Post #116 of 150 (1188 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You haven`t answered my question.

Why was the cutaway, in your opinion, "very dangerous"?.

It seemed like the jumper in the video was low. his broken english description said something about 1000ft. it seems that he made a good choice tho. I didn't apreciate how he blamed the packers for any of the errors. Mentioning the line coming unstowed and not how he pulled it through rather carelessly rubbed me wrong. I don't think it's an excuse to be lazy and pay for pack jobs. then blame the packers for your problems. But I take all that back because videos are very one dimensional and hard to get a full picture of it.
Enough on that
I know at this point you want to harp on me so your hoping I say something ridiculous.
Thank you for your posts


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 24, 2012, 12:32 PM
Post #117 of 150 (1159 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Enough on that
I know at this point you want to harp on me so your hoping I say something ridiculous.
Thank you for your posts


OK... You took some flack, we all do at times. I think people here like to jump on peoples mistakes. However, I also like to think their intent is to make sure we "get it right" and debate the gray area. Don't take it personally! Take it as lesson learned... hopefully, the lesson is learned? Smile


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 24, 2012, 2:35 PM
Post #118 of 150 (1091 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You haven`t answered my question.

Why was the cutaway, in your opinion, "very dangerous"?.

It seemed like the jumper in the video was low. his broken english description said something about 1000ft. it seems that he made a good choice tho. I didn't apreciate how he blamed the packers for any of the errors. Mentioning the line coming unstowed and not how he pulled it through rather carelessly rubbed me wrong. I don't think it's an excuse to be lazy and pay for pack jobs. then blame the packers for your problems. But I take all that back because videos are very one dimensional and hard to get a full picture of it.
Enough on that
I know at this point you want to harp on me so your hoping I say something ridiculous.
Thank you for your posts


Forget all the peripheral stuff. Im still not clear why you thought the cutaway was dangerous. 1000 feet is not dangerously low, if thats what you thought.....

When in doubt, the safest thing to do is cut away and pull your reserve. Of course you need to be aware of your altitude, and make a decision one way or the other at your hard deck.

There was nothing dangerous about the cutaway, at all. 1000 feet is prolly his hard deck (as is mine). He got there, wasnt happy about landing his canopy safely, was decisive with his decision making, and executed his EPs perfectly. All actions which will help keep him safe in a stress situation.

Be careful about slinging words like "dangerous" around. Somone might believe you and injure or kill themselves because they thought cutting away was dangerous. It simply isn`t so......


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 24, 2012, 3:20 PM
Post #119 of 150 (1068 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
You haven`t answered my question.

Why was the cutaway, in your opinion, "very dangerous"?.

It seemed like the jumper in the video was low. his broken english description said something about 1000ft. it seems that he made a good choice tho. I didn't apreciate how he blamed the packers for any of the errors. Mentioning the line coming unstowed and not how he pulled it through rather carelessly rubbed me wrong. I don't think it's an excuse to be lazy and pay for pack jobs. then blame the packers for your problems. But I take all that back because videos are very one dimensional and hard to get a full picture of it.
Enough on that
I know at this point you want to harp on me so your hoping I say something ridiculous.
Thank you for your posts


Forget all the peripheral stuff. Im still not clear why you thought the cutaway was dangerous. 1000 feet is not dangerously low, if thats what you thought.....

When in doubt, the safest thing to do is cut away and pull your reserve. Of course you need to be aware of your altitude, and make a decision one way or the other at your hard deck.

There was nothing dangerous about the cutaway, at all. 1000 feet is prolly his hard deck (as is mine). He got there, wasnt happy about landing his canopy safely, was decisive with his decision making, and executed his EPs perfectly. All actions which will help keep him safe in a stress situation.

Be careful about slinging words like "dangerous" around. Somone might believe you and injure or kill themselves because they thought cutting away was dangerous. It simply isn`t so......

Ok i apreciate the explination and I agree. I do not have cutaway expirience and shOuldnt talk like I am an expert there agreed
back me up and say that his description seemed a little like he was not taking responsibility for the error. Only mentioned a packer making a mistake. Etc


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:08 PM
Post #120 of 150 (1051 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Obelixtim,

Going through 1,000 Ft, I might think about a canopy transfer....thoughts? 1000 ft is getting fairly low....


hookitt  (D License)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:27 PM
Post #121 of 150 (1048 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Obelixtim,

Going through 1,000 Ft, I might think about a canopy transfer....thoughts? 1000 ft is getting fairly low....

Personally. If I was at 1000 with a low speed mall that was not safe to land, it would be a cutaway and reserve pull. Pretty close to simultaneous. A canopy transfer to me would be more dangerous.

On that note, though I have no issues with 1000 feet, I don't wait that long.

Consider this. From 1000 feet, you have about 10 seconds to impact if you cutaway from a low speed mal and do nothing. All my low speed cutaways, the parachutes inflated in WELL under 200 feet. Closer to 100 than 200.

During a planned breakaway, I took a 1 second delay. 2 seconds later my canopy was inflated. So 3 seconds including a 1 second delay is really not a big altitude loss.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:28 PM
Post #122 of 150 (1046 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Obelixtim,

Going through 1,000 Ft, I might think about a canopy transfer....thoughts? 1000 ft is getting fairly low....

Im quite comfortable chopping at a grand, no problems at all with that. At 1000 feet its action time, all my thinking has been done before that altitude. 1000 feet is not the place to be thinking about other actions that you havent prepared for.

Canopy transfers can be a whole new can of worms, especially if your main is not flying straight. I`ve tried a couple myself under test conditions, and even pre planned they don`t always go as you expected them to.

I have already pre planned my actions for different scenarios, and stick to my pre planned drills. Its the safest way, no room for doubt or uncertainty. its important to make a decision and stick to it. Quite comfortable trusting my reserve at 1000 feet.


Indecision will get you into trouble, for sure.

Every skydiver needs to put thought into their drills for different scenarios, and always be ready for the unexpected. It amazes me that some people fear their reserve.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 24, 2012, 4:39 PM
Post #123 of 150 (1039 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Fair points.

I've always set 1800 ft as my hard deck...and I've stuck to it. I also tend to unstow brakes immediately after opening in case of an issue.

I don't think i would intentionally fight anything to 1,000 ft and then get rid of it. It would likely be gone long before that. If I'm at 1,000 ft i've likely made the decision to land it already.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 24, 2012, 5:19 PM
Post #124 of 150 (1014 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Fair points.

I've always set 1800 ft as my hard deck...and I've stuck to it. I also tend to unstow brakes immediately after opening in case of an issue.

I don't think i would intentionally fight anything to 1,000 ft and then get rid of it. It would likely be gone long before that. If I'm at 1,000 ft i've likely made the decision to land it already.

Thats right, EP`s are better carried out as high as possible. Hard deck is exactly that.

Thing is, a nasty problem is actually easier to deal with, because it doesn`t leave you any choice, and is dealt with immediately, and the higher the better.

Its actually the slow ones that can catch you out the worst, because it gives you time to play with it, and its easy to get fixated on the problem and forget about your altitude. if you go below your hard deck in this situation then you have cut down your options considerably.

Task fixation can also cause a loss of awareness of other important factors, like alternative methods of dealing with a problem, and problems that might crop up on landing, like turbulence, and reaching a safe LZ.

Its easy to get caught out, I speak from experience, Dealt with quite a few nasties, but the one that nearly got me was a fully opened canopy with a small hang up....i was lucky to walk away from that one, and I never count on luck.....I got a little complacent and careless, broke all my own rules, and nearly paid for it.....


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 24, 2012, 9:33 PM
Post #125 of 150 (954 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

  

Every skydiver needs to put thought into their drills for different scenarios, and always be ready for the unexpected. It amazes me that some people fear their reserve.
I would say I "fear [the] reserve" in some way. Never thought of it like that. But it's a natural instinct to not want to use your "last hope".


theonlyski  (D License)

Jul 24, 2012, 9:38 PM
Post #126 of 150 (1343 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I would say I "fear [the] reserve" in some way. Never thought of it like that. But it's a natural instinct to not want to use your "last hope".

"When in doubt, whip it out" Wink


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jul 24, 2012, 10:00 PM
Post #127 of 150 (1333 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jacketsdb23] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Obelixtim,

Going through 1,000 Ft, I might think about a canopy transfer....thoughts? 1000 ft is getting fairly low....

A canopy transfer with a ram air reserve is never a good idea.

Sparky


pj_jumper  (A 12012)

Jul 24, 2012, 10:17 PM
Post #128 of 150 (1326 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mjosparky] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Obelixtim,

Going through 1,000 Ft, I might think about a canopy transfer....thoughts? 1000 ft is getting fairly low....

A canopy transfer with a ram air reserve is never a good idea.

Sparky

Who rocks the round reserves and does these said "Canopy transfers" any more. Sounds completely insane to try on a square.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 24, 2012, 10:25 PM
Post #129 of 150 (1323 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

There are a few discussions on canopy transfers when I did a search: http://www.dropzone.com/...y%20transfer;#603887

Agreed, 1000 ft is probably not the right place for that, but at some point, it may be the only option. Not a good option, but the only one.

I've been convinced cutting away at 1000 feet is probably fine...but I hope I'm never in that position, or I've messed up elsewhere along the way...and violated some of my own rules. Its good to be ready for the unexpected though.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 25, 2012, 1:25 AM
Post #130 of 150 (1284 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pj_jumper] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


Every skydiver needs to put thought into their drills for different scenarios, and always be ready for the unexpected. It amazes me that some people fear their reserve.

I would say I "fear [the] reserve" in some way. Never thought of it like that. But it's a natural instinct to not want to use your "last hope".
Thats where your training and discipline need to kick in, to overcome that "natural instinct". In skydiving if you don`t trust your reserve you should not be getting in the plane. Instead of "last hope", you should be thinking "best and first option".

Pretty silly to be dead on the DZ with a fully packed and servicable reserve on your back.

And as I already said, the reasons for the cutaway in the OP are basically irrelevant.....90% of mals are prolly preventable and are due to carelessness.

Humans make mistakes. In this case the jumper did made a small error, but in this sport a small error can kill you.

The subsequent decision and cutaway, though, were performed flawlessly.

I would give him praise for his actions, carrying out his EPs, rather can calling him "stupid", for an error easily made.

I bet he doesnt make that mistake again......and at least he is fit, healthy, and able to carry on jumping.

Its not always the case.......


JackC1

Jul 25, 2012, 1:48 AM
Post #131 of 150 (1276 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And as I already said, the reasons for the cutaway in the OP are basically irrelevant.....90% of mals are prolly preventable and are due to carelessness.

The reasons for the mal are very relevant. To fail to avoid an avoidable mal is basically stupid. The fact that he chopped is totally unremarkable.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 25, 2012, 2:17 AM
Post #132 of 150 (1269 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
And as I already said, the reasons for the cutaway in the OP are basically irrelevant.....90% of mals are prolly preventable and are due to carelessness.

The reasons for the mal are very relevant. To fail to avoid an avoidable mal is basically stupid. The fact that he chopped is totally unremarkable.

My point was specifically tailored to the context that the OPs proposition that the cutaway was "very dangerous", and doing so at 1000 feet is somehow stupid...

In fact it was neither stupid or dangerous, and in general terms, executing your EPs properly at 1000 feet will save your life.

In that context, the reasons for the cutaway ARE irrelevant. The jumper can argue that point with his packer over a beer. That he is in a position to do so is largely due to the correct decision making and use of his EPs.

And THAT is the important lesson to be learned from this video.....


JackC1

Jul 25, 2012, 2:29 AM
Post #133 of 150 (1262 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In fact it was neither stupid or dangerous, and in general terms, executing your EPs properly at 1000 feet will probably save your life.

FIFY. Reserves mal too.

In reply to:
In that context, the reasons for the cutaway ARE irrelevant. The jumper can argue that point with his packer over a beer. That he is in a position to do so is largely due to the correct decision making and use of his EPs.

And THAT is the important lesson to be learned from this video.....

I'd say the real lesson from this video is not that you can chop at 1000ft and be fine but that paying attention when you pop your brakes might mean you wont have to.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 25, 2012, 3:06 AM
Post #134 of 150 (1249 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
FIFY. Reserves mal too.

Jumping since 1974, rigger since 1979, I have packed thousands of reserves, and have seen a few hundred used. Used a few myself.

I`ve never seen one mal when correct EPs have been carried out.

A reserve mal is so rare I consider it an infintesimal risk. If that factor influences someone to hesitate to use their reserve, then my advice to them is to step away from skydiving....permanently.

Always trust your reserve...itll do its job if used correctly. History proves that.

Of more concern is the human using it....because that is where the complications arise...


JackC1

Jul 25, 2012, 3:49 AM
Post #135 of 150 (1232 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Then you've been lucky. I have seen a reserve mal that ended in a life flight. Luckily the injuries weren't severe.

I'd say that anyone who doesn't take preventable mals seriously because they think their reserve is bullet proof, should probably reconsider their participation in this sport.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 25, 2012, 5:12 AM
Post #136 of 150 (1207 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Then you've been lucky. I have seen a reserve mal that ended in a life flight. Luckily the injuries weren't severe.

Out of interest, was that a deployment into clean air, with a stable body position?. I.e, Were there other factors that affected the deployment.

In reply to:
I'd say that anyone who doesn't take preventable mals seriously because they think their reserve is bullet proof, should probably reconsider their participation in this sport.

I agree.....remove that link from the chain and your chances of survival go up dramatically.

There is no excuse for sloppiness.


JackC1

Jul 25, 2012, 6:05 AM
Post #137 of 150 (1184 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Out of interest, was that a deployment into clean air, with a stable body position?. I.e, Were there other factors that affected the deployment.

The deployment was clean and stable. The problem was a stuck toggle resulting in the need for a rear riser landing. The canopy stalled and collapsed. Basically the same problem (although different cause) that the guy in the video cut away from.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 25, 2012, 10:25 AM
Post #138 of 150 (1137 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JackC1] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 A stuck toggle?.

That sounds like a rigging error. Did the jumper not carry a hook knife?. Again the human factor comes into play. I would not blame the reserve for that, if it did its first job and opened cleanly, thus stopping the FF.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 25, 2012, 10:37 AM
Post #139 of 150 (1127 views)
Shortcut
Re: [obelixtim] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A stuck toggle?.

That sounds like a rigging error. Did the jumper not carry a hook knife?. Again the human factor comes into play. I would not blame the reserve for that, if it did its first job and opened cleanly, thus stopping the FF.

That would bring us back to the argument (not mine) that you should fear your reserve? Skydiving is not an exact science! The reserve is there to save your life. Use it when you need it. Don't create situations for its use!Wink


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jul 25, 2012, 10:53 AM
Post #140 of 150 (1110 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skyjumpenfool] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
A stuck toggle?.

That sounds like a rigging error. Did the jumper not carry a hook knife?. Again the human factor comes into play. I would not blame the reserve for that, if it did its first job and opened cleanly, thus stopping the FF.

That would bring us back to the argument (not mine) that you should fear your reserve? Skydiving is not an exact science! The reserve is there to save your life. Use it when you need it. Don't create situations for its use!Wink

I still wouldnt fear the reserve...in that case it sounds like it opened correctly and saved the jumpers life. If one toggle then hung up when the jumper released the brakes, that is a rigging error. The reserve didnt malfunction.

In that case the only fear would be on the part of the rigger, his fear of my boot contacting his sorry arse.

Nowhere am I condoning sloppy packing or anything like that (creating reasons for its use)..... I have little tolerance for carelessness on the DZ.

My point is simply that if you are in a situation where you are not sure you can land your main canopy safely due to a problem with it, the best and safest option is to cutaway and use your reserve.

It always has been and always will be.

If anyone really has a fear of using their reserve, they should really give serious consideration as to whether skydiving is really the right sport for them.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 25, 2012, 11:36 AM
Post #141 of 150 (1089 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skyjumpenfool] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

>That would bring us back to the argument (not mine) that you should fear your reserve?

You should know that it can malfunction just as your main can. You don't need to fear it, but you do need to weigh the risks.


elias123  (D 108)

Jul 26, 2012, 4:04 AM
Post #142 of 150 (1012 views)
Shortcut
Re: [mr2mk1g] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Might you be referring to Sangi?


skydivecat  (C License)

Aug 15, 2012, 6:37 AM
Post #143 of 150 (845 views)
Shortcut
Re: [elias123] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi All!

Just wanted to share a recent experience. I am a newer jumper, in the sport just a year now. Besides the bonfire, I don't really post all that much. Mostly just lurk, read, think, and ask my instructors their opinions.

This past sunday, I had my first chop and it was very similar to this. I read this thread most of the way through as it was happening, thought about the different options (landing on rears, wrapping my right brake to compensate, ect.) and also asked opinions from the guys at my home dz.

So there I was, open a little lower than normal for me (was in a five way and had to track further for clear air space, someone was closer than I like), but under a good canopy between 2500-2000ft. When I went to unstow my brakes to do my controlability check, right one pops, left one won't budge. Yank on it a few times, reach up to see if I can figure out what is stuck (which causes me to start spiralling as I am not braking on my right anymore), and at this point I immediatley decided to chop.

I was at my decision altitude, I wasn't comfortable I could safely land the canopy I had, this situation was something I had considered from reading this thread, no hesistation, chopped, under reserve by 1500-1200ft. Landed uneventfully on the dz, free bag 40 yards away, main recovered, even found the handle that i threw Smile.

A lot of people with more experience may argue that they would have done things differently, but at the end of the day, chopping was the right decision for me in this situation. My instructors agreed, and as we enjoyed the case of beer i bought, we talked about it. There are def things i could have done better/differently, but I learned from it, and was prepared for this situation due to seeing/reading about someone else's experiences on here. I made my decision and didn't hesistate to react.

Examination of my main did not reveal what caused the left toggle to be stuck. It was still stowed when recovered, but not "locked" by anything or misrouted.

I guess my point is, I just wanted to thank everyone for their thoughts and posts on here. Reading thru the different situations and hearing opinions on how to react can def help us newer jumpers. I ALWAYS ask my instructors at my dz their opinions, but many of the conversations and questions I have asked have come from something I saw or read on here.

Blue skies everyone! Can't wait to get back in the air this weekend!


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 15, 2012, 6:53 AM
Post #144 of 150 (832 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydivecat] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

nice job. Just wondering though, why would you allow a spin to happen while your trying to see what is wrong? All your doing is losing altitude and working time at that point, after all had you not allowed the spin to go on, you pretty much had a open canopy.

Not faulting your actions, just wondering.

Based on your account, (I've been there done that) I would have not let go of the right toggle and would have kept it flying forward while I looked it over, might have even just re-stowed the right toggle. (my decision altitude is most likely much lower then yours though)


(This post was edited by stratostar on Aug 15, 2012, 6:54 AM)


skydivecat  (C License)

Aug 15, 2012, 7:48 AM
Post #145 of 150 (803 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stratostar] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Trying to react to fixing the problem before thinking about the effect of releasing the other toggle would have lol. I was so focused on trying to see/fix the left side, I didn't even consider that I needed to keep applying brakes to my right to keep myself flying straight and level.

One of the things that we talked about that I could/should have handled differently. If I had kept braking or restowed the right side, I may have had more time to look at/try to fix the problem and not had to cut. As I started spiraling, I was thinking, "nice job dummy, you needed that not to start spinning". By allowing the spin to start though, and the loss of altitude that occured, it put me at my decision alti.

Had I been higher, I immediatley would have grabbed my right toggle to stop and reassessed. Good case of think about the reaction before you take action... Smile


davelepka  (D 21448)

Aug 15, 2012, 8:59 AM
Post #146 of 150 (772 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydivecat] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Please do not try to re-stow a toggle under canopy. It's very difficult at best, and you'll induce a turn the other way while trying to do so.

Think about it, one brake is stowed, so to fly straight you need the cats-eye (the hole in the sterring line the toggle goes through) needs to be right at the guidering to make it go straight. Now if you want to restow the brake, you'll need to pull it further down so you can get to the cats-eye with the toggle, and this will just make you turn the other way.

Also, you would need to pull the brake line with your hand just below the cats eye to make slack in the lower steering line so you can get the toggle through the line. Not advisable for the most part.

Any problem that takes two hands to fix is probably too much problem to be tyring to fix anyway. Use one hand to keep the canopy flying straight, and your eyes and the other hand to work the problem. If you really feel like your other hand is going to be the key to solving the problem, keep the toggle around your hand, and reach across. It will maintain most the input, and keep the turn rate low if the canopy does turn.

Note- the toggle needs to stay above your thumb. Around your hand, but above your thumb. Do not let the toggle past your thumb down onto your wrist. It might make it easier to work the problem with your hand, but there is a very real possibility that you're going to cutaway, and a toggle around yoru wrist is another problem you don't need at that time.

Above all, watch your altitude. RESPECT your decision altitude, and don't fall into the 'just one more second' trap. You are either in control or not when you reach your decision altitude, and you need to react accordingly without delay.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 15, 2012, 9:02 AM
Post #147 of 150 (769 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydivecat] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Firstly, nice job on the decision making and prompt action in carrying it out. You dealt with it and walked away unharmed and that is the important part.

I bet the beer tasted a little sweeter too!!!.

Its easy, and common to sit back later on and figure out what you might have done differently, but your story illustrates one point that you have now experienced.....that of target fixation...while dealing and focussing on one problem, (the hang up) you didn't think of reapplying input into the right toggle.

The effect of adrenalin and a bit of stress tends to narrow our focus somewhat.

But thats OK.

The really important point is that your training kicked in when you reached your hard deck, and you reacted correctly.

Mid air rigging is not a good idea, and next time you may react a little differently. But just keep in mind that two situations are not often exactly the same. Next time you may try to sort it out, but then again next time the instant chop might be the best solution.

Anyway. well done. You've learned a good lesson about dealing with pressure.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Aug 15, 2012, 9:06 AM)


stratostar  (Student)

Aug 15, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #148 of 150 (733 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydivecat] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Like I said, good job handing the problem at your level of Exp. You hit your DA and reacted as you should have... you chopped it and no one could fault you for that.

As for in air rigging... no where in my post did I say "you"Wink should have done that... I said "I"Tongue might have tried that, done it once on a batwing 134.

Biggest thing to take away is, you now know you work and the system works, the rest you can sort out over a beer.

Thanks for sharing your story.


skydivecat  (C License)

Aug 15, 2012, 12:01 PM
Post #149 of 150 (710 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks to all three of your for the feedback! Lots of good things to think about and consider.

Dave, I appreciate you outlining all the difficulties in trying to restow a brake while under canopy, as well as other pointers as to what to watch out for and what could have helped had altitude allowed.

The thought to try and restow a brake had not ever crossed my mind until reading Strats post, and even if time had allowed, I doubt I would have tried it. My reply was simply addressing a few of the points that he had brought up.

Oblex, you are 100% right with the target fixation, I just hadn't thought about it that way. That is the only thing I wish I had really done differently, being more aware of everything outside the stuck toggle. All in all though, it felt good to know under pressure that I reacted quickly, decisively, and that beer did taste good!


Decodiver  (D License)

Aug 15, 2012, 12:09 PM
Post #150 of 150 (702 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydivecat] Unnecessary cutaway. Very Dangerous and stupid [In reply to] Can't Post

You had a canopy you could neither control nor land...........good job......welcome to the cutaway club......



Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)