Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Rear riser landings?

 


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 5:51 AM
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Rear riser landings? Can't Post

I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:03 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

A noob should take a canopy control course.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:07 AM
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Re: [skybytch] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

I took Mr. Germains class 2 years ago. But looking at my notes we talked about how to use rear risers but I dont see anything in my notes about landings.


DaVinciflies

Jul 9, 2012, 6:07 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

As with most canopy skills, the way to start is up high. Get a feel for how far you need to pull down/out on the rears to get the canopy to plane out.

Also, get lots of practice on where the stall point is on the rears. This is the big danger in landing on rears as the stall will happen at a higher speed than a toggle stall.

In general, the rears are going to flatten out the glide of the canopy without slowing it down as much, so it is a good idea to do your first rear riser landings into a good headwind (12-15mph) and be prepared to either PLF or slide out the landing.

Finally, ALWAYS keep your toggles in your hands and don't be afraid to bail on the rears and finish the flare with the toggles if you don't feel comfortable (it's ok to just drop the rears and go to toggles).

Yes, it's safe - if you don't fuck it up! And I believe it's a good skill to practice. It's one of my essential skills to master on a new canopy.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:13 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?

Rear riser landings *can* be done safely, but that doesn't make them "safe." Being that landing mistakes account for a significant amount of death and injuries in our sport, changing from a standard pattern landing with a proper toggle flare increases the danger of the landing.

One of the absolute best ways to get used to flying your canopy with your rears is proximity flying with a very experienced canopy pilot at high altitudes. Through a series of drill dives a jumper can go from no rear input to understanding how the rear risers can change your canopy's flight characteristics.

Much like how a jumper has learned how to use toggles, it takes time and practice. It also takes understanding on how to practice. That practice starts with rear riser stalls. Then comparing how the rear riser can cause the canopy to stall compared to how the canopy reacts when the same is done with the toggles.

Then the jumper would move on to understanding and seeing how a flare sequence works and reacts when using the toggles, then compares this to attempting the same using the rear risers.

A good canopy coach can take you through this process and you'll learn more about your canopy than just how to land on your rears. You'll learn some important details about how your canopy flies.

Or you could do what I'm sure someone will say, wait for a decent ground wind and just go for it, which is not really the best or safest way to do it.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:16 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I took Mr. Germains class 2 years ago. But looking at my notes we talked about how to use rear risers but I dont see anything in my notes about landings.

How many jumps did you do in that course that were specific drill dives and with a video debrief?

Regardless, 2 years is a long time, especially for someone with a low jump tempo and a low amount of experience. There are some specific canopy coaches around the country that I would highly recommend, but for a blanket statement I can't say enough good things about the Flight-1 courses.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:25 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

AggieDave

Thank you if there is another class offered here in NJ I think I will sign up.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:27 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my favorites.

Thanks again BillVon.

I loved flying on nothing but rears. Tony Hathaway comes running over - "What's wrong with your canopy?" Nothing. "Why did you land on rears?" So I can and know that I can. "Huh. Great idea!"
Cool


DaVinciflies

Jul 9, 2012, 7:07 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thank you if there is another class offered here in NJ I think I will sign up.

http://flight-1.com/sport/certification/


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jul 9, 2012, 7:56 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I took Mr. Germains class 2 years ago. But looking at my notes we talked about how to use rear risers but I dont see anything in my notes about landings.

FFS That's your responseCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazy


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 9, 2012, 8:49 AM
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Re: [Squeak] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
FFS That's your responseCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazy

Huh?
Have the hysterical cries about taking canopy courses now turned into ones about taking a course at least once a year??


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jul 9, 2012, 9:04 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
FFS That's your responseCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazy

Huh?
Have the hysterical cries about taking canopy courses now turned into ones about taking a course at least once a year??
a guy ( a supposedly well educated one) with 70 jumps in 3 years asks for advice on his canopy flying, a course is the recombination and his reply is "i took one 2 years ago"Crazy


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jul 9, 2012, 9:05 AM)


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 9:12 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

well it never hurts to have more education.

that and as i said i looked at my notes and didn't see anything. so i just asked.


DougH  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 9:24 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?

A NOOB, especially one that doesn't jump with any frequency, should prioritize the skills that they work on.

In my opinion rear riser landings are really low on the canopy skill priority list. They are also just like skydiving everything else in skydiving, dangerous if done incorrectly. With practice you can have safe rear riser landings, but with the incorrect procedures you can also rear riser stall your canopy smash into the ground.

Now by all means you should play up high with your rears, they are a great tool for altering your canopy's glide, but there is no real reason to be landing with them.

Some might argue that rear riser landings practice would be helpful if you have a stuck toggle, etc. At your currency I say that logic is BS, if you don't have functioning toggles on your main, you should be giving some serious thought into cutting away and going to your reserve. The less you jump the less you should be complicating things, KISS.

You are much better off spending your few jumps practicing flat turns, working on a clean landing pattern, working on accuracy, and working on braked approaches.

Get a briefing on doing a high pull (there are different considerations than a normal jump) and play with your canopy. You will get the canopy time equivalent to several fun jumps where you burn up all the altitude in free fall, and then have a canopy flight that has to be focused on primarily landing.


(This post was edited by DougH on Jul 9, 2012, 9:29 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 9, 2012, 9:41 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
well it never hurts to have more education.

that and as i said i looked at my notes and didn't see anything. so i just asked.

I agree with your first point, but in regards to your second your point, when is it during your canopy flight that you expect to be able to check your notes? What I mean by that is if you really 'learn' something, you don't need to go back and refer to your notes, and in skydiving you cannot stop and refer to your notes, so if you don't 'know' it, you didn't really 'learn' it.

About rear risers, I would agree that it should be lower on your list. Using rear risers is fun and easy up high, and you should work with them and see what the range, response, and stall are like, in case you find yourself needing to use them. If you experience a control problem with your toggles too low for a cutaway, for example, you'll need to land on your rears.

However, that's unlikely, and with that in mind actually landing on your rears is better left to later days. First off, you want to be VERY good at judging your approach to the ground before trying to land on rears. The control stroke is very short and the stall is faster than toggles and more abrupt. What that equals is a 'one-shot' deal for flaring with your rear risers. You either get it perfect, or you hit the ground hard.

Toggles have a long control stroke, and with modern canopies you can flare in stages with little to no reduction in ocerall flare performance. It's forgiving situation where your timing can be off, but still offer you a reasonable landing. Rear risers are not like that.

The other reason to hold off is that you need to be 100% 'present' to start landing with rears, and able to over-ride instinct and muscle-memory. If you 'forget' that you're landing on rears and try to flare them like you flare with toggles, you'll stall almost immediately and hit hard (this has happened many times). You want to feel so 'in control' during the landing phase that you can go agaisnt every habit you've built on every jump thus far, or you want to stay off the rears for landing.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 9:46 AM
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Re: [DougH] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doug,
Yes I have practiced up high and was just wondering about landing.

I am still working very hard on getting the right flat turn in using my rears for final and have had good results. Same with rears making 90's

Cannopy flight is just one of those things that takes practice and lots of stupid questions.

Thank you all for the help. I will continue to work on it and seek out advice and information.


DaVinciflies

Jul 9, 2012, 10:01 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am still working very hard on getting the right flat turn in using my rears for final and have had good results.

Why are you using rears at this point in your pattern?

A better option would be to do your flat turns using toggles. This should be your default "save your arse" flat turn (with the exception of just post deployment) and the more you practice it the more likely you will, actually, be able to save your arse.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:04 AM
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A better option would be to do your flat turns using toggles. This should be your default "save your arse" flat turn (with the exception of just post deployment) and the more you practice it the more likely you will, actually, be able to save your arse.

People never rise to the occasion.

They fall to the level of their training.


That is why we have people making stupid low turn mistakes when confronted with a problem like a near canopy collision on final.


DaVinciflies

Jul 9, 2012, 10:07 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
A better option would be to do your flat turns using toggles. This should be your default "save your arse" flat turn (with the exception of just post deployment) and the more you practice it the more likely you will, actually, be able to save your arse.

People never rise to the occasion.

They fall to the level of their training.


That is why we have people making stupid low turn mistakes when confronted with a problem like a near canopy collision on final.

Agreed, Dave. Just trying to help out one flat turn at a time!

I wonder who trained Shah to use rears in the pattern? I once saw someone who had got into the habit of using all rears have to unstow her brakes at flare height to use them!! (because she had been told "nobody who knows how to fly a canopy uses their toggles")


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:09 AM
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why are you using rears at this point in your pattern?

A better option would be to do your flat turns using toggles. This should be your default "save your arse" flat turn (with the exception of just post deployment) and the more you practice it the more likely you will, actually, be able to save your arse.
You have fronts, rears and toggles.
Why not practice using all three up high and down low.

The rears have helped me extend portions of my landing pattern if i was going to be short. The fronts to give me more speed or to shorten a portion and the toggles to make flat turns when needed.

You have all these controll imputs why not learn how to use them?

***I always keep my toggles in my hands. I'm not nutty you know.


(This post was edited by shah269 on Jul 9, 2012, 10:12 AM)


DaVinciflies

Jul 9, 2012, 10:16 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have fronts, rears and toggles.
Why not practice using all three up high and down low.

[My bolding]

Dude - you need in person instruction before your next jump. I tried to be helpful but this question (minus a question mark) is serious cause for concern.

Don't jump again until you have addressed it with at least an instructor and preferably a canopy coach. Please.

ETA: I really can't decide if you're trolling. Shame on me if you are.


(This post was edited by DaVinciflies on Jul 9, 2012, 10:21 AM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:19 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not nutty you know.

Oh, I thought you were the same Shah that posts in bonfire?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:21 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?

There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:23 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The rears have helped me extend portions of my landing pattern if i was going to be short.

Really? Which portion was it?


DougH  (D License)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:50 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have fronts, rears and toggles.
Why not practice using all three up high and down low.

The rears have helped me extend portions of my landing pattern if i was going to be short. The fronts to give me more speed or to shorten a portion and the toggles to make flat turns when needed.

You have all these controll imputs why not learn how to use them?

***I always keep my toggles in my hands. I'm not nutty you know.

I see what you did there, your comment about flat turning with rears tipped me off.

My bad, I thought you were asking a question, and were going to consider the responses.

I didn't realize you were making a statement, and already had it all figured out. I should have realized this was just another opportunity for internet keyboard diarrhea. Crazy


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:56 AM
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Re: [DougH] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have it anything but figured out!
If i had it figured out 100% of my landings would be perfect stand up landings 5ft away from the packing mat and I would loose 0ft when making flat turns.

I'm just learning.

So rear riser landings are a no go? But aren't they a part of getting you B now?


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 9, 2012, 11:02 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here I was thinking you had made your very first decent, logical post.

If you seriously think that landing 5ft away from the packing mat is a perfect landing...shouldn't you be bowling?


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 11:06 AM
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Re: [normiss] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you seriously think that landing 5ft away from the packing mat is a perfect landing...shouldn't you be bowling?
5ft away, one knee down, singing...yeah style points Wink


But i'll be honest rears feel more "odd" than fronts due to the amazing ammount of energy they seem to put into the system. Using rears up high i'm always amazed at how powerful a change such a little defelection can produce!

But then again on my wing, fronts take lots of energy to get anythign out. I have to just about hang off the fronts to get any speed while the backs a simple pull...wow!

That said should rears be pulled down or pushed appart? If pushed appart....how the hell do you do that? I've tried and i really can't get much out of them.


mik  (D 11111)

Jul 9, 2012, 11:10 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?

There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings.

A friend of mine had a toggle come off below cut way altitude, She had been on a canopy control course where rear riser landings were taught. She landed (with PLF) just fine. According to her, she was very pleased to have had the opportunity to practice rear riser landings so she could perform them when required ...


(This post was edited by mik on Jul 9, 2012, 12:10 PM)


-ftp-

Jul 9, 2012, 11:54 AM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

hey #2, I have a question for you.

What would happen if DZ.com was shut down? Could you skydive anymore? Where would you go for help? Or have you pissed off ALL the knowledgeable at your DZ and are stuck resorting to the fucking internet for answers?

I am just curious why you seem to be so against asking for help in person? You post these cockamamie things on here for what? To get a rise? I mean seriously, they aren't to get help for real are they?


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 9, 2012, 12:30 PM
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Re: [-ftp-] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

My home DZ lost our S&T a few weeks ago to a better job offer.
I was going to ask him this very question before he helft just forgot thus why i'm asking here.

Sorry for asking.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jul 9, 2012, 12:48 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?

There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings.


Broke a steering line on opening, landed on rears rather than cut away.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 9, 2012, 12:51 PM
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Re: [mik] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?

There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings.

A friend of mine had a toggle come off below cut way altitude, She had been on a canopy control course where rear riser landings were taught. She landed (with PLF) just fine. According to her, she was very pleased to have had the opportunity to practice rear riser landings so she could perform them when required ...

Good for her. Odd though. Teaching rear riser landings is a fairly new thing, yet we've had squares for more than 30 years without a single incident that I know of where someone was badly injured or killed because a toggle fell off.

Of course if a toggle just fell off, maybe she should be a bit more focused on maintenance and inspection. Or does she know how to do that?


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Jul 9, 2012, 12:52 PM
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Broke a steering line on opening, landed on rears rather than cut away.

Sounds like a good reason to practice rear riser landings so you can perform one.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 9, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #35 of 70 (1041 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?

There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings.


Broke a steering line on opening, landed on rears rather than cut away.

I have too - twice, on an Excalibur. Landed both on rears without ever having practiced it. Well technically I had practiced once when it happened the second time. Wink


-ftp-

Jul 9, 2012, 1:51 PM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My home DZ lost our S&T a few weeks ago to a better job offer.
I was going to ask him this very question before he helft just forgot thus why i'm asking here.

Sorry for asking.

Appology accepted.

So the S&T is the only person that speaks English at your DZ? Is that what you're saying?


DaVinciflies

Jul 9, 2012, 3:16 PM
Post #37 of 70 (998 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
yet we've had squares for more than 30 years without a single incident that I know of where someone was badly injured or killed because a toggle fell off.

I know of at least two people who have smashed femurs from a toggle coming off the steering line, and I am not that well connected in skydiving. I am not saying that rears would have saved either one from the titanium club, but I do know that toggles have come off resulting in injury.

ETA: landing on rears is also in BillVon's downsizing checklist, and lots of people recommend exploring all aspects of a canopy's envelope before downsizing - I think this is a relevant skill to learn (with proper instruction).


(This post was edited by DaVinciflies on Jul 9, 2012, 3:23 PM)


DaVinciflies

Jul 9, 2012, 3:20 PM
Post #38 of 70 (994 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But i'll be honest rears feel more "odd" than fronts due to the amazing ammount of energy they seem to put into the system.

Rears do not put energy into the system (unless perhaps you are talking about potential energy due to planing out), whereas fronts increase kinetic energy.

Yet again, I have to say stop fucking jumping until you have the very basics of canopy flight explained to you by someone who knows what they are talking about.

In fact, I suggest you sit through an AFF ground school. And listen.

If you turn out to be a troll, I will hunt you down and blow up your bridge!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 9, 2012, 4:26 PM
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Shah,
Haven't you learned by now that most these DZ.com bozos are not going to take you seriously and really try to help you out?

They are going to twist everything you say into something you didn't mean and then hammer you for it...along with the smart-assed comments like Kallend's who is totally unwilling to help anybody, anytime.

You DID get a couple of good posts answering your question but then the idiotic "let's-get-shah" shit started and you see what happened. Don't feed the trolls.

It would be best, IMO, if you could find a good mentor willing to assist and only talk to him through PM.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jul 9, 2012, 4:28 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:01 PM
Post #40 of 70 (941 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?

There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings.


Broke a steering line on opening, landed on rears rather than cut away.

Chris, someone up thread mentioned an undercurrent jumper with low jump numbers may be better off cutting away. Obviously gear maintenance counts, because you don't want the toggle to fall off at 300 foot.

I am curious about it, as I'd rather not land on rears. Hopefully I'll get some good education in 2 weeks time when I get crw coachingSmile


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:04 PM
Post #41 of 70 (938 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Shah,
Haven't you learned by now that most these DZ.com bozos are not going to take you seriously and really try to help you out?

They are going to twist everything you say into something you didn't mean and then hammer you for it...along with the smart-assed comments like Kallend's who is totally unwilling to help anybody, anytime.

You DID get a couple of good posts answering your question but then the idiotic "let's-get-shah" shit started and you see what happened. Don't feed the trolls.

It would be best, IMO, if you could find a good mentor willing to assist and only talk to him through PM.

I hope you're right Andy. You're probably the only instructor left on dz.com prepared to treat Shah seriously, I hope he takes the opportunity to learn from you


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:08 PM
Post #42 of 70 (938 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting perspective.

I saw it that Shah did indeed ask a very nice serious question.
He started receiving some nice answers.
He then became Shah again.
Here we are.

I would completely concur your advice IS spot on Andy.
Except for the PM part.
I would recommend some time sitting at the DZ chatting with the old jumpers. It's really amazing what you can learn sitting around chatting with people.
Having those decrepit old instructors around is pretty nice.
Angelic


fencebuster  (D 29918)

Jul 9, 2012, 6:29 PM
Post #43 of 70 (929 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't pretend to be an expert canopy pilot. I have been hurt twice on bad landings. As for rear riser landings, I'll say this . . . At 150 jumps I had a hard opening on a Spectre and, without much rear riser practice since the student progression, I did some rear riser flares quickly and decided to land on rears. Worked out OK. About 400 jumps later, I had a steering line knot around the guide ring on the riser and could not clear it. I decided that since I could not land it as Bill Booth designed it, I would cut away. Stand up Reserve landing. If it happened to me today, I'd cut away. Trust the equipment on a mal.

Last year I was trying to sink into a baseball field and stalled my canopy and had an exceptionally hard landing -- I stalled the canopy in deep brakes, recovered in a dive and managed to flare full rear risers just before impact. I am walking, so I do believe in rears, but I consider them an emergency procedure that I would not use if I did not need to use them.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jul 9, 2012, 9:32 PM
Post #44 of 70 (883 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm sorry but our S&T left the other day for a better paying gig. And sadly i forgot to ask him before he left.

How should a N00B practice rear riser landings? And are they safe?

There is no reason to practice or perform rear riser landings.


Broke a steering line on opening, landed on rears rather than cut away.

Chris, someone up thread mentioned an undercurrent jumper with low jump numbers may be better off cutting away. Obviously gear maintenance counts, because you don't want the toggle to fall off at 300 foot.

I am curious about it, as I'd rather not land on rears. Hopefully I'll get some good education in 2 weeks time when I get crw coachingSmile

That is a personal choice. I subscribe to the philosophy of never trade a land-able canopy for an unknown.Smile


NWPoul  (D 178119)

Jul 9, 2012, 10:29 PM
Post #45 of 70 (876 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a good idea to know your canopy
learn to fly and land it in all possible ways

Yep it's even more good idea to learn it via face-to-face training with coach or experienced flyer

Regarding landing on rears - besides all said advices
IMO it's good to start from just plain out on rears with trasit to the toggles and when you became used to plain out and flying along the surface on rears landing will be quite easy step further (and even if you screw it/stall it - it will be not a big deal)


Fearjoburg  (A 7079)

Jul 10, 2012, 3:31 AM
Post #46 of 70 (849 views)
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Re: [NWPoul] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
A friend of mine had a toggle come off below cut way altitude, She had been on a canopy control course where rear riser landings were taught. She landed (with PLF) just fine. According to her, she was very pleased to have had the opportunity to practice rear riser landings so she could perform them when required ...

I just want to know - in the event that a toggle come off what do you do with the other toggle?
Do you stow it or just let it go?


DaVinciflies

Jul 10, 2012, 5:34 AM
Post #47 of 70 (816 views)
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Re: [Fearjoburg] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


I just want to know - in the event that a toggle come off what do you do with the other toggle?
Do you stow it or just let it go?

Let it go.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 10, 2012, 6:04 AM
Post #48 of 70 (800 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Shah,
Haven't you learned by now that most these DZ.com bozos are not going to take you seriously and really try to help you out?

They are going to twist everything you say into something you didn't mean and then hammer you for it...along with the smart-assed comments like Kallend's who is totally unwilling to help anybody, anytime.

You DID get a couple of good posts answering your question but then the idiotic "let's-get-shah" shit started and you see what happened. Don't feed the trolls.

It would be best, IMO, if you could find a good mentor willing to assist and only talk to him through PM.
Thank you.
When it comes to stuff like this I'm 100% a student. Sadly I think my utilization of verbs may be off when describing what I'm feeling and seeing.
So I try my best not to say much and just listen.

Again thank you.

When I get back to the DZ i'll ask some of the guys with thousands of jumps what they suggest.


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Jul 10, 2012, 8:15 AM
Post #49 of 70 (761 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Jumpers considering this thread must realize that all canopies are not the same. Rear riser input will cause a different response in one canopy from another. This is dependant upon trim or angle of attack. Flat trimmed canopies which glude well will probably stall and drop out of the air quicker than "Lawn Darts" which are already dropping out of the air quickly.

KNOW YOUR CANOPY


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jul 10, 2012, 8:18 AM
Post #50 of 70 (758 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Rear risers are good. Broke a brake line? You still have a canopy that is controllable, square, and stable. Learn to love rear risers and be comfortable landing on them.

A reserve is nice if its needed, but its an unknown and they can fail. I'll take my main with a broken brake line any day...even on my velo 84 (but i've practiced and i'm comfortable with it).


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jul 10, 2012, 9:21 AM
Post #51 of 70 (1441 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed.
If flying a controlable/landable canopy that is likely to stay that way, keep it. Reserves can fail.

But how do you know if its landable?

That's what practice (up high, before you need to know) is about.

I don't agree with all BG preaches, but he is 100% on this one... you should strive to know EVERTHING you canopy can do... if you don't (yet) then you got more learning to do. Never know when you'll need to know how to get just that little bit extra from your canopy.

I agree with keeping up on maintanence, but are you ready when something fails anyway??

JW

PS - landed large/student canopy on rears twice when the steering lines broke... but because it was part of my DZ's taught process for learning new canopies, I already had tried it on prior jumps. Scared, yes, but did what I practiced and it worked great.

PPS - and yes, I have heard of injuries (fatal?) from broken/untied/etc steering toggles down low.

PPPS - what ever happened to "if you can't say something nice, STFU"?? Yes, this newbie should ask his local instructors and take advice here with a large grain of salt. And the newbie that shows up next month may ask the same question again. Please either patiently direct/advise/recommend again, or STFU. rec.skydiving lost all its good/useful purpose when it became a small group of know-it-alls that just wanted to slam everyone else, or rehash all the old arguments with personal insults and snide comments. You may have been here for years (so have I) but there will always be newbies, and they are the future experts, so stop chasing them off. /rant


Sky_doggy  (C 41295)

Jul 10, 2012, 10:59 AM
Post #52 of 70 (1407 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
PPPS - what ever happened to "if you can't say something nice, STFU"?? Yes, this newbie should ask his local instructors and take advice here with a large grain of salt. And the newbie that shows up next month may ask the same question again. Please either patiently direct/advise/recommend again, or STFU. rec.skydiving lost all its good/useful purpose when it became a small group of know-it-alls that just wanted to slam everyone else, or rehash all the old arguments with personal insults and snide comments. You may have been here for years (so have I) but there will always be newbies, and they are the future experts, so stop chasing them off. /rant

+1 (Coming from a noobie)


Ron

Jul 10, 2012, 6:17 PM
Post #53 of 70 (1338 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
PPPS - what ever happened to "if you can't say something nice, STFU"?? Yes, this newbie should ask his local instructors and take advice here with a large grain of salt. And the newbie that shows up next month may ask the same question again. Please either patiently direct/advise/recommend again, or STFU. rec.skydiving lost all its good/useful purpose when it became a small group of know-it-alls that just wanted to slam everyone else, or rehash all the old arguments with personal insults and snide comments. You may have been here for years (so have I) but there will always be newbies, and they are the future experts, so stop chasing them off. /rant

The poster has a solid track record of being a troll.... So while he might not be acting that way right here, right now.... But your track record has a way of following you. So when he acts like a troll 99% of the time and then tries to be serious, well, you can expect that some people are just not going to believe him.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jul 10, 2012, 7:20 PM
Post #54 of 70 (1323 views)
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Re: [Ron] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
PPPS - what ever happened to "if you can't say something nice, STFU"?? Yes, this newbie should ask his local instructors and take advice here with a large grain of salt. And the newbie that shows up next month may ask the same question again. Please either patiently direct/advise/recommend again, or STFU. rec.skydiving lost all its good/useful purpose when it became a small group of know-it-alls that just wanted to slam everyone else, or rehash all the old arguments with personal insults and snide comments. You may have been here for years (so have I) but there will always be newbies, and they are the future experts, so stop chasing them off. /rant

The poster has a solid track record of being a troll.... So while he might not be acting that way right here, right now.... But your track record has a way of following you. So when he acts like a troll 99% of the time and then tries to be serious, well, you can expect that some people are just not going to believe him.

Understood, and if my Rant was out of line or anyone took offence then... my bad. However as there are other newbie's here as well, and they don't know his track record, I hope that they can see the legtimate question and get a good answer.

Just my $.02 Feel free to PM me with any offline thoughts.
JW


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 11, 2012, 7:00 AM
Post #55 of 70 (1274 views)
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Re: [Ron] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The poster has a solid track record of being a troll.... So while he might not be acting that way right here, right now.... But your track record has a way of following you. So when he acts like a troll 99% of the time and then tries to be serious, well, you can expect that some people are just not going to believe him.
Ah yeah it's the bonfire...there i am who i am.
Here in this part I'm a student. I read i learn i ask questions.

You know people can have fun in one part of their lives while being serious in another.


OK that BS aside...let's move on shall we?

So on student lightly loaded wings, will the rears feel heavier than highly loaded wings? And as such are they as effective?

I've had very good luck with my 1:1 extending my glide slope using rears while making it back from a somewhat long spot.


Ron

Jul 11, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #56 of 70 (1254 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Ah yeah it's the bonfire...there i am who i am.
Here in this part I'm a student. I read i learn i ask questions.

When you troll 99% of the time, expect to be treated like a troll all the time. You don't get to act like an ass 99% of the time and then suddenly cry that when YOU want to be serious others don't take you seriously.

Quote:
You know people can have fun in one part of their lives while being serious in another.

Here is a thought.... Stop acting like a troll and maybe then people will treat you seriously.

Quote:
OK that BS aside...let's move on shall we?

I have moved on... I have decided that you are not to be taken seriously based on your past performance. Therefore, I am not going to "feed the troll" even when he seems to be genuine.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 12, 2012, 7:29 AM
Post #57 of 70 (1189 views)
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Re: [Ron] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

OK those panties are in a nice line twist!

OK when working on rear riser controlls is it best to keep the breaks stowed or unstowed?

per your experiences what is safer?

At the moment, after deployment, i ensure all is well and the lower and close the slider. But before any of that i grab the rears just incase i have to turn to avoid anyone.

While flying last time I noticed that it was a little easier to utilize the rears witht he breaks stowed. What is the cause of this? And is it safe to practice utilizing the rears high up with the breaks in the stowed position?

Thank you


Ron

Jul 12, 2012, 7:43 AM
Post #58 of 70 (1181 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nevermind.... I am going to stop feeding the troll.


(This post was edited by Ron on Jul 12, 2012, 7:45 AM)


DaVinciflies

Jul 12, 2012, 7:55 AM
Post #59 of 70 (1175 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is good to know how your canopy responds on rears with brakes (note the spelling) stowed and unstowed. You can practice both up high.

In reply to:
While flying last time I noticed that it was a little easier to utilize the rears witht he breaks stowed. What is the cause of this?

You tell us.

What lines are you pulling on in each case (brakes stowed and unstowed)?
Where do those lines attach?
What is the difference in "control surface" in each case?
Does that explain why one is more responsive than the other?

I am serious - give it a shot at answering those questions.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Jul 12, 2012, 7:56 AM
Post #60 of 70 (1173 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK those panties are in a nice line twist!

OK when working on rear riser controlls is it best to keep the breaks stowed or unstowed?

per your experiences what is safer?

At the moment, after deployment, i ensure all is well and the lower and close the slider. But before any of that i grab the rears just incase i have to turn to avoid anyone.

While flying last time I noticed that it was a little easier to utilize the rears witht he breaks stowed. What is the cause of this? And is it safe to practice utilizing the rears high up with the breaks in the stowed position?

Thank you

You have 70 jumps and have been in the sport 3 yrs. Try using your thought process. What is different about your canopy when the brakes are set. Sorry, you don't deserve spoon feeding.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 12, 2012, 8:08 AM
Post #61 of 70 (1167 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You tell us.

What lines are you pulling on in each case (brakes stowed and unstowed)?
Where do those lines attach?
What is the difference in "control surface" in each case?
Does that explain why one is more responsive than the other?

I am serious - give it a shot at answering those questions.

Well the rears are attached at the same distance as the brakes. So whent hey are half stowed the rears sould be more slack?

Man why didn't I bring my parachute into the office....I'll be honest I'm not 100% sure how far back the D lines and the brakes go and how close they are to each other.

I do understand that the rears effect more surface than the brakes do so that I understand but when i get home tonight I'll have to check my lines.


(This post was edited by shah269 on Jul 12, 2012, 8:10 AM)


DaVinciflies

Jul 12, 2012, 8:15 AM
Post #62 of 70 (1162 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good. That's a start.

Do some homework tonight and let us know your revised answer in the morning!

(Hint: if any lines other than brake lines are slack during flight you have a problem. Line tension is your very good friend).


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 12, 2012, 8:10 PM
Post #63 of 70 (1105 views)
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Re: [Ron] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have decided that you are not to be taken seriously based on your past performance.

Play the message, not the messenger.
Simple concept.


Ron

Jul 13, 2012, 3:43 AM
Post #64 of 70 (1084 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Easier just to ingore him from now on.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 13, 2012, 8:22 PM
Post #65 of 70 (1003 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

>OK when working on rear riser controlls is it best to keep the breaks stowed or unstowed?

The only reason I can imagine that you might want to try landing with brakes stowed is if you can't release either brake. Other than that, it's worthwhile to know how to steer using rear risers with brakes stowed for collision avoidance after opening.

>While flying last time I noticed that it was a little easier to utilize the rears witht he
>breaks stowed.

Right. Brakes pull on risers when stowed and you are fighting that.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 14, 2012, 4:51 AM
Post #66 of 70 (981 views)
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Re: [billvon] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Other than that, it's worthwhile to know how to steer using rear risers with brakes stowed for collision avoidance after opening.

I'm sure you have, I know I have had to do that more than a couple of times over the years. Especially on organized dives that turned into a zoo at boogies.


DaVinciflies

Jul 14, 2012, 8:17 AM
Post #67 of 70 (955 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Shah

Have you looked yet and had a thin about what is going on?

It might be easier to look at a picture of canopy in flight where you can see the lines.


david3  (D 21297)

Jul 15, 2012, 6:51 PM
Post #68 of 70 (888 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
AggieDave

Thank you if there is another class offered here in NJ I think I will sign up.

Not NJ but not too far. http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4340999#4340999


DaVinciflies

Jul 16, 2012, 10:18 AM
Post #69 of 70 (820 views)
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Re: [shah269] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Lost interest, Shah?


shah269  (A 59581)

Jul 20, 2012, 11:20 AM
Post #70 of 70 (709 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Rear riser landings? [In reply to] Can't Post

work/rain/sick and reading and learning from the other threads.



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