None of that applies to this location or gathering. The cause of this accident was in the harness.

Agreeing to disagree. Adios.

You're right, we can argue all day and neither one of us would be completely right.

If you think this landing area is tight,which it's not, you would shit a brick where we use to land at my house.

You are throwing demo standards at something that wasn't a demo. Using your definition every jump made at a DZ when a wuffo is present should be considered a demo.

Hair splitting and a complete thread drift.

My point - to stay on topic - was/is that a jump into a private gathering away from an established DZ - however you choose to classify it - carries many of the same dangers as anything you would call a demo.

Just because you can legally classify this as not being a demo, many of the attributes of this jump were the same as one and may have contributed to the incident.

Thanks for the move, mods. I didn't expect such triviality.

This accident was caused by someone doing a 270* turn to low to complete the turn. The space he had to land in had nothing to do with it. Altitude would have saved his life, a larger landing area would not. More space around the point of impact would not make the ground softer.

You don't know that the landing area size wasn't a contributing factor. That is a complete assumption on your part and kind of a double standard for a guy that wants to talk definitions.

Tight landing areas are notorious for sucking people in with target fixation, low performance turns to stay clear of obstacles (more perceived than real), and a variety of other factors. Getting sucked in could be even more prevalent in someone who wasn't current, was jumping a high performance canopy, and performing a high performance landing.

Unless you are talking to Greg from beyond the grave, you can not say with any degree of certainty whether a tight landing area contributed to his error. It's pretty obvious that a low turn was the eventual cause of death, but you apparently don't want to discuss the above very real factors that may have contributed to Greg making that low turn.

And in case you haven't noticed, we are both arguing.

Actually we were arguing. My point is made. I'm done. Go pour me a drink.

You are throwing demo standards at something that wasn't a demo. Using your definition every jump made at a DZ when a wuffo is present should be considered a demo.

...a jump into a private gathering away from an established DZ - however you choose to classify it - carries many of the same dangers as anything you would call a demo.

Just because you can legally classify this as not being a demo, many of the attributes of this jump were the same as one and may have contributed to the incident.

so to make a demo jump NOT a demo jump, you just simply have to say "It's not a demo jump" ?

Nevermind, not worth the trouble.

yep

I'm not saying that off airport jumps shouldn't be taken more seriously or that the psychological issues didn't play a role here.

Your earlier - and staunchly defended - stance was that this jump was no different than one at an unfamiliar established DZ. Now "off airport jumps" are different???

I think you're supposed to beep when you back up like that.

So what do you call someone who what's to make something so without any supporting evidence?

A clergyman.

Guys for what it is worth as an outsider you are largely arguing over the same thing.

Chris clarified his position, but some of you are reading things into what he said that he didn't say.

I think the general point is. When doing a jump 'off dz' the mental issues and challenges are the same or similar to a demo. But that does not make it a demo jump.

Yeah, we know. But we love to watch him fume over silly sh*t.

He's been dragging that dead horse for a dozen posts now.

Well I'll just break out the popcorn and watch.

Here's estion though. Saturday I am catching the ferry flight from 1 dz to another. I haven't jumped at the destination dz before. How does this fit the risk profile?
If I jump from the ferry that is.

>If I jump from the ferry that is.

Interesting question.

The first set of risks are the usual risks that come from jumping at any new DZ - new hazards, new windbreaks, new traffic patterns (aircraft and parachute) new telltales of bad weather coming in, new sightpicture etc.

The second set of risks come from the somewhat unusual risks of not arriving at the DZ on foot. Which means you don't get to see it from the ground, you don't get a feel for where people land and where the plane loads, you don't get a briefing, you don't see the aerial picture, you don't talk to people on the ground beforehand etc. On all the demos we've done we've walked the area beforehand, because you can learn a lot more about the landing area from 5 feet than you can from 12,500. You won't know what the wind was before takeoff, so getting ATIS or the equivalent from the DZ is important.

The third set come from the ferry flight itself. Ferry flights longer than about 20 minutes are unusual and people often do unusual things - take their rigs off for a while (or make themselves unusually comfortable by loosening things), stowing gloves, helmets etc so you can wear a headset (which now means it's possible to lose them.) Your gear can also do strange things, like altimeters resetting after they have been at 5000 feet for an hour. Pilot chutes are often exposed to more of the aircraft so the odds of partly extracted PC's, popped pin and riser covers and snags go up. If the flight is high you will be at much greater risk for hypoxia; you'll be more hypoxic after a ferry flight at 10,000 feet than you will be during a jump from 12,500.

The fourth set come from being an unexpected arrival, which many ferry flights entail. You're going to appear over a DZ that's not expecting a load to drop. This generally isn't a problem as long as they know to expect you sometime (and do not do things like fly kites or let whuffos run their dogs around the DZ.)

Thanks Bill some interesting points. I knew about dz elevation differences but some other aspects I hadn't thought of.

Pretty sure it will be a hop and pop. Dzo is only letting B licenses and above on the plane. Jumping is subject to how we stow the baggage. It looks like there will be 3 of us in a Navajo.

It is tempting to jump as it is half the price of a jump ticket, but maybe I'll save jumping for the return leg on Sunday.

It's only Skydiving...what's the worse that could happen?!

It's only Skydiving...what's the worse that could happen?!

Being the only guy on plane, with a couple of hot chicks and then chickening out of the jump because it's a strange dz?

>It's only Skydiving...what's the worse that could happen?

One of the scariest jumps I almost did:

World Team 2004. Last day of the event. No record and it's pouring out. BJ has a plan:

"OK so here's what we're going to do. We're going to load up, take off, fly an hour west to beat the storm, fly over this abandoned Vietnam-era airbase, drop everyone from 26,000+ feet, get the record, land, load up the planes, then fly back. The landing area is huge. It'll be fine*."

Normally I think we would have been talked into such a plan, since to get on such records you have to be the kind of person who's willing to weather any adversity to get on the loads. But after a sketchy demo into downtown Bangkok that put a few people in the hospital there was a lot of apprehension over such schemes. Many people (me included) complained to team captains and organizers.

Finally a compromise was reached - we would go there, land, check out the landing areas, have breakoff and landing briefings, dirt dive and then go up. This was still a bit sketchy, combining a new landing area with the pressure everyone was under, but we agreed to it. We went there, landed, discovered the big area that had an antenna that was really more like a field of five foot spikes, took off and got the record. And even had time to do one more jump before the weather (and night) came in.

(* - because it wasn't a demo of course.)

Egos heal much faster than bones!

Egos heal much faster than bones!

So what do you call someone who what's to make something so without any supporting evidence?

~ Landing at Carolina Sky Sports following the Century of Flight demo at Kitty Hawk.

Night, marginal weather, tall trees on each side of the strip, coming in hot & heavy in a sky-van with a tired pilot...IF they would have let me get out ~ I WOULD HAVE!

~ Landing at Carolina Sky Sports following the Century of Flight demo at Kitty Hawk.

Night, marginal weather, tall trees on each side of the strip, coming in hot & heavy in a sky-van with a tired pilot...IF they would have let me get out ~ I WOULD HAVE!

CSpenceFLY

Sparky