Jun 9, 2012, 7:38 AM
Post #1 of 31
(4141 views)
Shortcut
Side-spin video
Can't Post
A friend posted this video on FB yesterday. I don't know when or where it happened (the plane is based in Italy, though), but apparently the main was deployed somewhere around 700meters, after a spin of 2500m. (Never mind the cloud cover)
To me, it looks like the TI caused/exacerbated the problem by trying to control the passenger's legs with his own, starting the turn that continued into a spin.
In my opinion, a hard arch with the arms and legs spread out wide would have been much better than doing that thing with the legs. That's not to say that I'm a firm believer in jumping out, arching and expecting to end up in the proper position- I think a tandem exit should be flown from the moment you leave the plane, same as any other skydive.
Of course, I'm a relative noob with about 600 tandem jumps so far, but I've jumped from slow planes and fast planes, side doors and tailgates, and I haven't always exited poised right into the airflow, either. It just seems to me that if you have the passenger attached correctly, moving their mass around while you fly your body is not that big an issue.
Oh, and I've also been taught that you should deploy the drogue if you're spinning right side up. I have no idea if this TI couldn't do it or if he thought he could still rectify the situation and toss it in a stable position.
In a side spin he last thing you want to do is go into a hard arch. This will put your body farther away from the student creating more blades on a propeller. Once the rotations speed up it will put the student farther away from you so you end up with the student torso, your torso, your legs and the students legs being 4 blads of a propeller. You should watch the side spin instructors video, in a side spin you need to grab hold of the student with your arms and legs, this eleminates more propeller blades Eventually the spin will disapat and you can right the position and throw the drogue. I would say what the instructor did wrong was to keep is arms out and an arch in his upper body, he should have grab his student with his arms.
(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Jun 9, 2012, 8:11 AM)
I'm clear on that. I was saying he actually started the spin by grabbing his legs and, yes, arching the upper body. I've never really analyzed how I bring a tandem that has tipped sideways on exit the right way down again..I just turn my body belly to earth and bring the passenger along.
I had a side spin experience early into my tandem jumping career. What I learned from that experience was that if I try to fix my student on the exit I'll lose. If I fly my body and just make it work by flying me, I'll win.
Notice that things go from sort of annoying to "holy shit" when the instructor leg locks the student and tries to force an arch? That's what happened to me.
The distance of the video makes me wonder about the experience of the videographer. There is an argument to keep a safe dstance for the TM to correct the issue but try and stay in the same zip code...
The distance of the video makes me wonder about the experience of the videographer.
I'll offer an alternate opinion.
The video flyer still stayed on level with a drogueless tandem, while flying head up. That's pretty good in itself, and more than is planned or expected of him.
Keeping close to fast falling drogueless spinning tandems is not part of the job description, unlike for an AFF instructor to chase a spinning student.
The exact quality of the student's video may not have seemed to be of much importance to the video flyer at the time either.
It sure wasn't on the one jump where I chased a long tandem side spin. I admit to getting a bit [typo fixed] high on them, as they drifted off horizontally too, with me getting 50' high and 100' away while I transitioned to sit and then to stand. Maybe I could have been quicker off the mark and also practiced my head down, but after the drogue was out and the spin stopped I swooped in for the shot just before the deployment.
If you want to rule the guy out for video flyer of the year, fine, but generally I'd say the criticism is a little harsh.
(This post was edited by pchapman on Jun 11, 2012, 4:09 PM)
The distance of the video makes me wonder about the experience of the videographer. There is an argument to keep a safe dstance for the TM to correct the issue but try and stay in the same zip code...
I think it was SAFER for him to be further away, especially provided the clouds they bust at the bottom end. Last thing I'd want to do is loose sight of them while near them and low.
This would have been prevented simply by the tm doing a half decent exit by presenting to the relative wind, wether its by diving out or turning out poised on exit. Also flying the exit instead of worrying about what your student is doing. Nice job though on sorting it out and getting a canopy out seen as they were drouge side down. Drouge side up its easy, just throw the drouge.
one thing I do not get at all: strongs sidespin-recoveryvideo has been around for a really long time now, so TI's and foremost I/E's should be familiar with the technique of getting out of a sidespin.
if not it should be at least reviewed on safety day and - if you have such a thing on your DZ while doing refresher-training....
they were drouge side down. Drouge side up its easy, just throw the drouge.
Looks like drogue side up to me.
Correct, my bad. First time I watched I thought just throw the drouge, your drouge side up, watched it the second time not paying as much attention and thought they were drouge side down.
Side spin, drouge side up throw the drouge, drouge side down du,p the reserve. Will all be avoided by a good solid exit. It only takes 10 seconds in a side spin to black out.
Can anyone of you tell me where i can buy the side-spin video. Do know it exists but tried to find it on the internet (als checked the Strong website) but i am not able to find it.
Can anyone of you tell me where i can buy the side-spin video. Do know it exists but tried to find it on the internet (als checked the Strong website) but i am not able to find it.
You can buy it from Strong Enterprises. They offer DVD, not sure about PAL DVD, but I believe that NTSC DVD will play on your computer with no problem.
(This post was edited by skydiverek on Jun 13, 2012, 6:36 AM)
Side spin, drouge side up throw the drouge, drouge side down dump the reserve.
What it the logic of dumping the reserve instad of giving drogue a chance? Both could entangle, so starting with drogue would make more sense to me. You would still have the "reserve option" left.
On the side-spin DVD from Strong they lean towards going for the drogue, saying that the reserve has still a very good chance of going cleanly past the entangled (with leg/hand) drogue. Has anything changed since the time this DVD was made?
You can buy it from Strong Enterprises. They offer DVD, not sure about PAL DVD, but I believe that NTSC DVD will play on your computer with no problem.
$12.99 plus shipping for the Tandem Side Spin Phenomenon DVD. I have them in stock. tandem@strongparachutes.com
(This post was edited by rinaldi524 on Jun 15, 2012, 10:55 AM)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That video must be almost 10 years old. It was shot at skydive Hutchinson (long closed) and the tandem I has been out of the sport almost as long.
In reply to:
So its not relevant ? who cares who and where.......it was an illistration of a great recovery job...
Didn't say anything about that, just commenting on seeing a jumer I haven't see for a while at an old DZ I used to jump at. maybe you should re-read your tag line......
Side spin, drouge side up throw the drouge, drouge side down dump the reserve.
What it the logic of dumping the reserve instad of giving drogue a chance? Both could entangle, so starting with drogue would make more sense to me. You would still have the "reserve option" left.
On the side-spin DVD from Strong they lean towards going for the drogue, saying that the reserve has still a very good chance of going cleanly past the entangled (with leg/hand) drogue. Has anything changed since the time this DVD was made?
If the drouge is thrown with a drouge side down side spin, it has a high chance of entangling with a part of the jumpers, you then have to fire a reserve past a drouge possibly while still in a side spin. If the reserve is deployed it is going past less body and if it does entangle you have the free bag so the reserve itself still has a very good chance of deploying.
It's been quite afew years since I've seen the side spin video but from the start of the spin you have about 10 seconds before black out occurs so you don't have much time to do anything let alone trying to stop the spin. It's not an easy job on a tandem with a flailing student on the front.
If in doubt dump your reserve and get a canopy out.
Side spin, drouge side up throw the drouge, drouge side down dump the reserve.
What it the logic of dumping the reserve instad of giving drogue a chance? Both could entangle, so starting with drogue would make more sense to me. You would still have the "reserve option" left.
In a side spin, and going tandem terminal, you are going way into the red zone. If the TM doesn`t have the smarts, or skill, to stop the spin, he is in big trouble. First priority is to stop the freefall.
This is best achieved by dumping the reserve. It is for use in an emergency, and a side spin going terminal, definitely qualifies as an emergency.
It is not the time to start pissing about finding the drogue.
