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Unstable Exits

 

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Abedy  (D 10153)

Jun 4, 2012, 10:37 AM
Post #26 of 56 (1109 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

If it is any comfort to you, stable exits at 40+ jumps is something for them young jumpwonders. At 29, you ain't. Cool
I also had problems with dive exits until I jumped out an AN2 at 1500 m. The door is hiiigh, but no that wide so I didn't focus that much on slither "parallel" out. I just presented my chest to the wind and arched and... didn't tumble, wow. There's (IIRC!) a video from Skydive University - Basic Body Flight - where you can see the instructor sort of jumping out straight (almost 90 to the line of flight) but presenting his chest to the relative wind and his right leg higher than his left one. This way, he smoothly slides down the hill.
I then fine tuned my exit and got them more and more "close to the line of flight", i. e. my angle of diving out the door and the l.o.f. becoming smaller and smaller.
As a number of others said: Do some h&p jumps, you got plenty of time to get stable and only need to focus on the exit and will be surprised that you pretty soon got about 7-8s to spare for intentional somersaults, barrel rolls etc pp Wink
The free-coaching approach (having s.o. taping your exits and discussing them with an instructor) is another valuable tool.
If you do a floating exit: Not only try to look at the instructor in the door but - after some confidence-building jumps - try to wave - with both arms - at them. Looks great on tape and is a good means to really keep you arched and keep your gaze fixed towards the door.


Tuukka  (A License)

Jun 4, 2012, 12:14 PM
Post #27 of 56 (1074 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Have your tried jumping into sitflying position with your back against the wind?

She is talking about dive exits. Thanks anyway.

Yes I know. I just think the problem is more mental than technique.
Friend of mine had the same problem with straight exits.
Trying the same thing over and over might not solve the problem quickest.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 12:55 PM
Post #28 of 56 (1054 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Dave was right about emergency exits. I once had to leave at 1200' due to an engine out emergency. I did a diving exit and pulled a second or two later, nice and stable. I was head down compared to the horizon but flat and stable on the relative wind. Cool
Good stuff, John!
Main or reserve?
LaughLaughWink

Since Dave didn't specifically mention emergency bailouts in Post#23 and only addressed 5K H&Ps, let me add for Namowal and other young jumpers:

This whole thing about H&P is preparing you for emergency bailout situations.
There are two exits that you will need to perfect in case of low-altitude bailouts.
- Upright, square to the relative wind
- Diving, head down and away

Your bailout may have to use one or the other for stability at pull time. At low altitude (5K is high) you may not get enough altitude to burn to 'get stable' before you lose too much of it.

What do you imagine would have happened had it been YOU that had to bail at 1200 at this time?

I differ from one of the posters above. 40 jumps should have stable emergency exits down pat by now.

It's important that you develop proficiency at one or the other, preferably both, before you actually have to use one.

It's obvious that you are working on it and my hat is off to you. I'd offer my pants too, but you wouldn't be buying that.
Angelic

You didn't mention it but I hope you already have a good upright, square to the wind exit in your toolbox.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jun 4, 2012, 12:55 PM)


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 4, 2012, 1:52 PM
Post #29 of 56 (1036 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry to say I am at 58 jumps and can not do a poised exit still Personally at the end of my rope> sorry not the inspiration you wanted was hoping you would give me some.


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 4, 2012, 2:09 PM
Post #30 of 56 (1022 views)
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Re: [Amyr] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

I had instructors doing nothing but exit jumps with me took a canopy class did hop n pops thought in my mind it was all fixed and was videoed my last jump and i still hop to the side and do not look up at the plane on my hop n pop turned slight as well. SO if you find a fix Namowal please let me know


Namowal  (A 63059)

Jun 4, 2012, 2:28 PM
Post #31 of 56 (1010 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What do you imagine would have happened had it been YOU that had to bail at 1200 at this time?
Duck Soup. That's what would happen. Unsure
Or this...

Quote:
It's obvious that you are working on it and my hat is off to you. I'd offer my pants too, but you wouldn't be buying that.
Angelic
Heh heh. :)
It has crossed my mind that poor exit + low bailout could be serious trouble- all the more reason to get my act together.
In reply to:
You didn't mention it but I hope you already have a good upright, square to the wind exit in your toolbox.
Actually, I don't believe I was ever trained to do an upright exit. All the supervised, unattached exits were either floats or dives. Maybe the assumption is that most jumpers are competent enough to dive out stable in the event of an emergency.
Come to think of it, I'm behind the curve in general. My DZ is very noob friendly and offers frequent coaching for us. Here's how this usually runs down.
1st jump: Coach prepares something a normal jumper at my experience should be able to do. S/he thinks I'm just being modest when I say it might be trouble.
Subsequent Jumps: Much simpler stuff, to get me up to speed. It's wonderful help, but I wish I wasn't so @&!# slow. It's like sitting on a rattlesnake- embarrassing and dangerous at the same time.Crazy


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 4, 2012, 3:04 PM
Post #32 of 56 (998 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Once you learn it, it'll stay learned, because you'll understand why it works. And someday it might just make you a better coach or instructor, or even just experienced jumper who jumps with newbies.

Wendy P.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:13 PM
Post #33 of 56 (970 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
had it been YOU that had to bail at 1200 at this time?
Duck Soup. That's what would happen. Unsure

Of course, going back to basics, you don't have to be stable to pull. Get the f. out of the plane and pull. (Belly-ish to wind would be nice.) Plenty of students and pilots bailing out have pulled unstable and were fine. Sure there are added risks of line twists down low or having a leg caught in lines causing a mal, but the risk of something going seriously bad is low, especially compared to the alternative.

If you've done floats, dives, and are going to work on upright exits, also consider later trying out dives straight to the side. There one needs to be rolled left somewhat to be belly to wind. Belly doesn't have to fact directly forwards; partway forwards and down is OK.

Oh, one more thing about exits that I think hasn't been mentioned: In a dive down or dive to the side, one doesn't want rotational momentum where one is pitching down. One wants to try more to exit on a certain angle and keep that angle, not exit with a lot of downwards pitching, which can keep going until the jumper flips over. If one is trying to clear the door sill and dive down steep one tends to have some rotational momentum going, because one does have to go from crounched in the plane to diving head down, but one tries to minimize the rotation. (And that's where arms out and legs up helps after exit.)

To get an idea what I mean, maybe you've seen vid of bad old time BASE exits? Newbies at Bridge Day? Pushing off with a lot of "diving down" pitching puts jumpers over onto their back, especially with little airflow for control.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 6:55 PM
Post #34 of 56 (944 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Actually, I don't believe I was ever trained to do an upright exit.

Here's how I teach an upright exit and it is good for emergencies too.

For left-side door exits (Otter, say):

When the group before you exits, go to the door and place your right foot on the edge of the door sill at say, a 45 degree angle toes towards the wing.

When the proper number of seconds for separation hits, push off on your right foot and rotate to place your body into the wind parallel with the wing. You will want a slightly angled presentation with your head slightly closer to the nose of the plane than your feet.

(Edited to add: Do NOT jump UP. We are simply rotating out the door, not jumping.

Keep your legs out and feet even and your arms in a normal box position with your head up looking at the wing.

Keep your eyes on the plane as you fall away.

If you feel like you are rotating over to your left or right, you can correct using the arm turn maneuvers that you already know how to do.

Try it! You'll like it!
Wink

First, please note that in the case of emergencies we are not hesitating in the door and we'll be exiting quickly behind the person in front of you. How quickly depends on the altitude, the planes stability and how excited the guy behind you gets before he pushes you out.
LaughLaughTongue

When you are practicing, it would be a good idea to do practice touches/pulls right out the door because in a low altitude emergency, you might be needing to pull at one second after exit.

Yes, there other methods that work and some may be offered to you in this thread.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jun 4, 2012, 6:56 PM)


dthames  (B 37674)

Jun 5, 2012, 4:24 AM
Post #35 of 56 (898 views)
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Re: [Amyr] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sorry to say I am at 58 jumps and can not do a poised exit still Personally at the end of my rope> sorry not the inspiration you wanted was hoping you would give me some.

Do you ever jump from something other than the C-206?


Namowal  (A 63059)

Jun 5, 2012, 8:35 AM
Post #36 of 56 (871 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info. Cool
In reply to:
In reply to:
Actually, I don't believe I was ever trained to do an upright exit.

Here's how I teach an upright exit and it is good for emergencies too.

For left-side door exits (Otter, say):

When the group before you exits, go to the door and place your right foot on the edge of the door sill at say, a 45 degree angle toes towards the wing.

When the proper number of seconds for separation hits, push off on your right foot and rotate to place your body into the wind parallel with the wing. You will want a slightly angled presentation with your head slightly closer to the nose of the plane than your feet.

(Edited to add: Do NOT jump UP. We are simply rotating out the door, not jumping.


Keep your legs out and feet even and your arms in a normal box position with your head up looking at the wing.

Keep your eyes on the plane as you fall away.

If you feel like you are rotating over to your left or right, you can correct using the arm turn maneuvers that you already know how to do.

Try it! You'll like it!
Wink

First, please note that in the case of emergencies we are not hesitating in the door and we'll be exiting quickly behind the person in front of you. How quickly depends on the altitude, the planes stability and how excited the guy behind you gets before he pushes you out.
LaughLaughTongue

When you are practicing, it would be a good idea to do practice touches/pulls right out the door because in a low altitude emergency, you might be needing to pull at one second after exit.

Yes, there other methods that work and some may be offered to you in this thread.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jun 5, 2012, 11:25 AM
Post #37 of 56 (824 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

You know what's over rated!
Stability! I mean really have you seen these free flyers! And when you watch them in slow motion! MY GOD! Everything looks better in slow motion! Even a sneeze!

OK the BS aside, we are talking about the hill here right guys and gals? Well my two cents on the issue is this, stability is easy out the door.
OK step to the door, place right foot in front of left, square shoulders and hold the door, push out with your right foot and kick out with your left foot and punch out with your left hand don't worry your right hand will go with you. Think of it like you are jumping out from behind a corner to scare someone!

You are going to look like this
0// ==>(Boo wind! I'm like going skydiving and stuff!)
(
\\

\\0 ==>(Oh I'm in and ready to go DOOOR!)
)
//

\0/ ==>(Yo wind! Check out my stability!)
(
/ \
And as you "slide" down the hill I then get a little more comfortable and have even been able to track "up" the hill.
So you can look like this

0 ==>(Sup buddies I be tracking up da hill!)
/\
/\

As a N00B I've noticed this has worked very well for me. But remember you want to track perpendicular (he he he said dick) away from the jump run so you don't meet anyone in the air. So work with your coach to figure out how to do that ok!

Also not saying it's right or wrong but I noticed that the same type of out=>in=>out=>track helped me with getting stable quick on low altitude skydives.

(_)3 Beer!

This is a cat!
>^..^<
This is a dog
^..^
And this is a man
O}-<
And this is a chick
Q<-<


(This post was edited by shah269 on Jun 5, 2012, 11:26 AM)


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 5, 2012, 2:47 PM
Post #38 of 56 (791 views)
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Re: [dthames] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Jumped from a otter a caravan and a King Air. Except for my first exit out of the King air they all seemed to be ok. But It is the dropzone with the cesena 206 I wanted to call home.
But Reading in previous post By now I should have mastered it and am a danger to myself and the other jumpers my not being able to perform it properly.

Not going to bowl>> probably take up sitting on the internet talking to skydivers


lookoutbelow  (A 63826)

Jun 5, 2012, 3:13 PM
Post #39 of 56 (777 views)
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Re: [shah269] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
0
/\
/\

This is how I made my first hop and pop exit a few jumps back. I was worried about what exit to use. My normal head first exit is fine, but never felt like I was ready to immediately open. After watching enough videos of clean hop and pops, the jump to the side, facing forward (being sure to not throw myself backwards), and arms down, with a slight arch in hip and legs seemed to always be clean and quick. I made two test exits like that and 13.5 and both were amazingly clean. Several seconds into it, you either pull the chute, if a hop and pop, or transition your arms to standard belly position if an altitude exit. Worked for me.


extreme78  (C 39615)

Jun 5, 2012, 4:39 PM
Post #40 of 56 (751 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Im sure that you heard this one many times before but what worked for me was watching the plane fly away and arch.
No worries about arm and legs possition, just arch and make sure you smile at the people in the plane :-)
Fixed my exits in one afternoon.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 5, 2012, 5:05 PM
Post #41 of 56 (745 views)
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Re: [Amyr] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jumped from a otter a caravan and a King Air. Except for my first exit out of the King air they all seemed to be ok. But It is the dropzone with the cesena 206 I wanted to call home.
But Reading in previous post By now I should have mastered it and am a danger to myself and the other jumpers my not being able to perform it properly.

Not going to bowl>> probably take up sitting on the internet talking to skydivers

Don't take advice off the internet. If you or your instructors feel you are unsafe then stop. Otherwise so long as you are having fun, who cares if you are taking longer to pick things up? Not everyone is a natural and some of us are slow learners. I'm sure you've heard about Wendy.

I took ages to get off student status - I was terrified of jumping and would promise to become a nun on the way up if I lived! That and being a broke student really slowed me down. But on the ground after a jump my smile was HUGE.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 5, 2012, 5:57 PM
Post #42 of 56 (732 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I was terrified of jumping and would promise to become a nun on the way up if I lived!
If I remember rightly, you're a guy. That'd really be a huge commitment! Laugh

Wendy P.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 5, 2012, 6:31 PM
Post #43 of 56 (724 views)
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Re: [lookoutbelow] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
0
/\
/\

...the jump to the side, facing forward (being sure to not throw myself backwards), and arms down, with a slight arch in hip and legs seemed to always be clean and quick.
Yep, that works well and is easy to learn, too!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 5, 2012, 6:37 PM
Post #44 of 56 (719 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I was terrified of jumping and would promise to become a nun on the way up if I lived!
If I remember rightly, you're a guy. That'd really be a huge commitment! Laugh

Wendy P.

Nigel would make a great nun...a little wax on the beard, a little ear hair removal...hey, nearly any priest would hit it.
LaughLaugh


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 5, 2012, 7:34 PM
Post #45 of 56 (708 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I'm still a bit spooked doing hop and pops- afraid I'll still be unstable at pull time

First off, remember that it takes 10 seconds to drop through the first 1000ft, so there's no rush. If you leave at 5k, you have 10 seconds to get stable and pull by 4k. Also, remember that the longer you fall, the easier it will be to get stable. You'll be building airspeed the whole time, and your arch will be more effective the closer you get to terminal velocity.

With the above in mind, start doing some hop n pops this weekend, and arrange for one of the jumpers on the load to film your exit. They can film it from the door and still continue on to do their own jump, so that's free video. Once on the ground, get a copy of the video and pin down one of the staff members to review it with you. It won't take more than 2 min or so, and that's free coaching.

Be sure to look at things like where you're looking, the alaignment of your shoulders and hips with the relative wind, and your overall body position (are you even arching? are you holding the arch, or breaking it when you go a little off kilter?). You should be able to locate the source of your problem, and then have some things to focus on for your next jump.

So free video, free coaching, and nothing to focus on but the exit as there's no freefall to follow. You'll get more jumps in, and be able to work on canopy control with no traffic as well.

You might be intimidated by exits and hop n pops, but this is how you can turn that around and make those your strong point.

Didn't want to chop any of this out - Dave's posting is perfect advice for you.

I did want to comment on the not rushing. I had a lovely experience on a HnP out of a side door (as opposed to rollup) Cessna where I felt a bit cramped by the height, hurled myself out into a full loop, but tossed the PC before I came about - it hooked around my foot. Fortunately I was able to toe point like in a track and let it slip free to deploy, but it did burn some altitude. In a rush exit, or even just a lower 3k HnP, that would have been a low opening. This was during a canopy class so I got several more tries at it in that particular plane. Your canopy class will be a great opportunity to get better at this, and once you've got it, you can get to the point where you can exit and open within a couple hundred feet, which Pops points out is a rather important skill to have.

I am one of those who learned the dive far sooner than the poised exit. Part of it I think is the height of many of the doors coupled with me being a bit stiff and inflexible after the ride up in steerage class. The King Air was much easier than the otter or the really short Pac, as the curved fuselage meant I could stand 6' tall inside. Or it may be my trouble with stepping out sideways, but wary of hopping up with that tail stablizer behind me, without imparting a twist. They taught me the dive for my HnPs out of a 182 and it stuck immediately for me. I could watch the prior exit, count off some time, and already be in position to dive out.


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 5, 2012, 8:58 PM
Post #46 of 56 (693 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you or your instructors feel you are unsafe then stop. Otherwise so long as you are having fun, who cares if you are taking longer to pick things up? Not everyone is a natural and some of us are slow learners. I'm sure you've heard about Wendy.

Main problem is its not fun anymore. 6000 in hole and my budget was 4000 for an A license . Even had a budget for a parachute at the end all blown, Each time it was but your so close and you do not want to waste the money you spent

I think a break is in order a long break because I am a risk. Cut my loses

Your advice comes late Nigel but not too late!

I have heard about Wendy So Wendy how did you swing the money end of learning to skydive?????


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 5, 2012, 10:45 PM
Post #47 of 56 (680 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I was terrified of jumping and would promise to become a nun on the way up if I lived!
If I remember rightly, you're a guy. That'd really be a huge commitment! Laugh

Wendy P.

Very true. My parents are super religious. They would have been proud to know how much I prayed on the way upAngelic.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 5, 2012, 10:48 PM
Post #48 of 56 (678 views)
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Re: [Amyr] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you or your instructors feel you are unsafe then stop. Otherwise so long as you are having fun, who cares if you are taking longer to pick things up? Not everyone is a natural and some of us are slow learners. I'm sure you've heard about Wendy.

Main problem is its not fun anymore. 6000 in hole and my budget was 4000 for an A license . Even had a budget for a parachute at the end all blown, Each time it was but your so close and you do not want to waste the money you spent

I think a break is in order a long break because I am a risk. Cut my loses

Your advice comes late Nigel but not too late!

I have heard about Wendy So Wendy how did you swing the money end of learning to skydive?????

Sorry to hear that. No point if it isn't fun, much better to find something you enjoy. If you like skydivers manifest girl is a cool jobSmile


Abedy  (D 10153)

Jun 5, 2012, 10:49 PM
Post #49 of 56 (678 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't take advice off the internet.

Does this rule apply to your own advice, too?

Catch22ish sort of, huh?
Just musing... CoolAngelic


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 5, 2012, 11:07 PM
Post #50 of 56 (676 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Don't take advice off the internet.

Does this rule apply to your own advice, too?

Catch22ish sort of, huh?
Just musing... CoolAngelic

Mines not advice, simply an opinionAngelic


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