Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Unstable Exits

 


Namowal  (A 63059)

Jun 3, 2012, 10:26 AM
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Unstable Exits Can't Post

I'm at 42 jumps and, while getting better, I still can't do a stable exit. I understand (or I should say, I'm under the possibly false impression that I understand) the position that I'm supposed to take when I dive out, that I'm supposed to present to the wind etc...
But when I'm out the door I'm flopping all over the place, with the poise of Jerry Lewis.Unsure
I realize there's no magic solution I can get from a forum post, and will rely on coaches and instructors at the DZ to straighten me out...
...but is there anyone out there who was as bad as me at 42 jumps, but eventually got the hang of it?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jun 3, 2012, 11:40 AM
Post #2 of 56 (3449 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm at 42 jumps and, while getting better, I still can't do a stable exit. I understand (or I should say, I'm under the possibly false impression that I understand) the position that I'm supposed to take when I dive out, that I'm supposed to present to the wind etc...
But when I'm out the door I'm flopping all over the place, with the poise of Jerry Lewis.Unsure
I realize there's no magic solution I can get from a forum post, and will rely on coaches and instructors at the DZ to straighten me out...
...but is there anyone out there who was as bad as me at 42 jumps, but eventually got the hang of it?

Yep.Tongue
I have a magic trick. You know where to find me.


Tuukka  (A License)

Jun 3, 2012, 11:57 AM
Post #3 of 56 (3440 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

You propably mean kicking with your legs or "trying to swim back to the plane"? Don't worry. There are many that have the same problem.
It's part reflex part excitement. Have your tried jumping into sitflying position with your back against the wind?
You don't need to do actual sit flying. just think that you're jumping into a pool. It's propably the most relaxed exit I can think of. Stay relax and still for a few seconds and then flip to your belly. That might help.

(Of course listen to your jumpmasters first , then take advice from the internet. Wink )


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Jun 3, 2012, 1:41 PM
Post #4 of 56 (3390 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

When I had 42 jumps I was still on student status :). There are 2 of us at my dz who took 48 jumps to get off of student status!! And we learned 2 different methods at 2 different DZs 15 years apart :). So if you are off student status you are way ahead of where I was at your number of jumps!!!


format  (B 15348)

Jun 3, 2012, 3:21 PM
Post #5 of 56 (3352 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm 42 jumps old

I remember 42 as my first reserve. How exciting not to die.

Make some magic or whatever to deploy stable.


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Jun 3, 2012, 3:23 PM
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesn't matter how unstable you are when you exit, or your in free fall etc...ARCH fixes EVERYTHING.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jun 3, 2012, 3:38 PM
Post #7 of 56 (3337 views)
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Re: [rwieder] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

I was not a natural at exits. Sometime around 60 jumps I did 5-7 hop and pops in a row just to work on exits and canopy control. That helped a lot.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 3, 2012, 3:48 PM
Post #8 of 56 (3333 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

I had some of that same problem. My background was a little different from yours; I learned via the static line progression and thus exits were a lot more critical. It took me a good 20 jumps or so to get to the point where I could reliably exit. Until I got there it seemed like there was nothing I could do to keep from rolling onto my side on every single jump.

From otters it's actually a bit tougher because there's no strut to hang from to put you in a good position. Some tricks I've learned:

1) Face forward and on exit do your best to push forward and plant your pelvis on the landing gear tire you see in front of you. You won't be able to do it, but the effort will put you into a good position.

2) Look up at the wing as you fall away. Your body follows your head, and by staring at the wing you'll be pointing your body in the right direction.

3) Try a bunch of different exits to see what works. Poised is probably the best first try. Floating might work for you. Diving is a lot tougher but some people find it more "natural" for some reason.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jun 3, 2012, 4:15 PM
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I don't know how to diagnose all the possible issues but can ask some questions. (This is for a typical turbine aircraft like the Otter I think you may be using.)

Are you ok on a simple exit like the back to the wind one mentioned? It's a very stable position not requiring a lot of careful limb placement, and doesn't have limbs spread far to the sides, minimizing instability if something isn't symmetrical.

Are you ok if exiting from the floater bar outside the aircraft? If so, that suggests the transition from inside to outside is a problem. You don't have to demonstrate a front float fully outside the aircraft on a front step, but can have head and arms outside, and lower body inside the door and even braced against the back of the door, if you feel you are being peeled off by the wind blast.

Lighter weight people can have a bit harder time pushing out cleanly into the airflow before starting to be twisted, if part of them is outside but a leg is still inside. Are you getting an aggressive launch from inside the plane, to try to clear the door quickly, avoiding being spun from being half in the breeze and half out of it? (You may have seen really aggressive launches by the jumper inside the aircraft in an RW formation jump or AFF instructional jump.)

Or do you get out of the plane cleanly but then are not belly to wind and thus end up rolling or flipping?

Do you flip when diving down aft to chase someone? That's a common issue, where it is better to break the exit down into a clean exit straight out to the side, rolled somewhat to be belly somewhat forward, and only then think about turning and dive aft.

Can you go out with arms tucked up against the chest like an exaggerated mantis position (and legs kicked back tightly to balance the loss of arms in the breeze) ? That would take away the influence of any flapping arms and focus attention on a good arch and being belly to wind.

Or do you present to the wind OK but your body starts a little kicking or flailing for a couple seconds as it isn't yet used to the soft sub-terminal air with "nothing to grab"?

Are you "trying too hard" to get stable and moving arms & legs too much when it would be better to stay a little more still and trust the arch?


muff528  (D 17609)

Jun 3, 2012, 4:16 PM
Post #10 of 56 (3318 views)
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Re: [billvon] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had some of that same problem. My background was a little different from yours; I learned via the static line progression and thus exits were a lot more critical. It took me a good 20 jumps or so to get to the point where I could reliably exit. Until I got there it seemed like there was nothing I could do to keep from rolling onto my side on every single jump.

From otters it's actually a bit tougher because there's no strut to hang from to put you in a good position. Some tricks I've learned:

1) Face forward and on exit do your best to push forward and plant your pelvis on the landing gear tire you see in front of you. You won't be able to do it, but the effort will put you into a good position.

2) Look up at the wing as you fall away. Your body follows your head, and by staring at the wing you'll be pointing your body in the right direction.

3) Try a bunch of different exits to see what works. Poised is probably the best first try. Floating might work for you. Diving is a lot tougher but some people find it more "natural" for some reason.

What Bill said. Poised/Floating exit and looking up at the plane while falling away was the single biggest help for me. It took a few jumps to correct a "built-in" sub-terminal turn but looking up at the plane seemed to fix it.


Namowal  (A 63059)

Jun 3, 2012, 5:40 PM
Post #11 of 56 (3275 views)
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Re: Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yep.Tongue
I have a magic trick. You know where to find me.
Magic trick? Is this the same trick as how to get to Carnegie Hall (Practice, practice, practice!) Smile
Quote:
When I had 42 jumps I was still on student status :). There are 2 of us at my dz who took 48 jumps to get off of student status!! And we learned 2 different methods at 2 different DZs 15 years apart :). So if you are off student status you are way ahead of where I was at your number of jumps!!!
Quote:
I was not a natural at exits. Sometime around 60 jumps I did 5-7 hop and pops in a row just to work on exits and canopy control. That helped a lot.
Whew! That's what I was hoping to hear. I was afraid it might be bowling ball time for me.
Quote:
From otters it's actually a bit tougher because there's no strut to hang from to put you in a good position. Some tricks I've learned:

1) Face forward and on exit do your best to push forward and plant your pelvis on the landing gear tire you see in front of you. You won't be able to do it, but the effort will put you into a good position.

2) Look up at the wing as you fall away. Your body follows your head, and by staring at the wing you'll be pointing your body in the right direction.

3) Try a bunch of different exits to see what works. Poised is probably the best first try. Floating might work for you. Diving is a lot tougher but some people find it more "natural" for some reason.

I'll try that, if the instructors/coaches are cool with it. I don't remember looking up at the plane, so maybe that's part of the problem.
Quote:
Are you ok if exiting from the floater bar outside the aircraft? If so, that suggests the transition from inside to outside is a problem.
Quote:
Or do you get out of the plane cleanly but then are not belly to wind and thus end up rolling or flipping?
It seems easier to get stable from floating exits. It's the dive that sends me flopping. Often I'm okay for a second or two, but then I'm on my back. D'oh!

Quote:
Or do you present to the wind OK but your body starts a little kicking or flailing for a couple seconds as it isn't yet used to the soft sub-terminal air with "nothing to grab"?
This is very possible.

Quote:
Are you "trying too hard" to get stable and moving arms & legs too much when it would be better to stay a little more still and trust the arch?
This is quite possible too.

I'm surprised by how many replies I got. Thanks everyone!


theonlyski  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 6:46 PM
Post #12 of 56 (3252 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'll try that, if the instructors/coaches are cool with it. I don't remember looking up at the plane, so maybe that's part of the problem.

Many experienced jumpers with ~100 still blank on what happened on exit, and don't remember seeing the plane, even if they were looking right at it!

My first stable solo exit was my first '5.5' hop and pop, reason it was so stable? Cause according to my altimeter, the base of those clouds was at 3k and we were under 'em. I was too scared shitless to fuck it up. Crazy


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 3, 2012, 7:35 PM
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Not an instructor so I may have this wrong, but being dz.com at least we know that half a dozen people will jump in and correct meTongue

On a diving exit you need to keep your feet right on your bum, while maintaining a hard arch - that stops you flipping over. That works for me anyway and pretty sure it is what I was taught. If you straighten your legs to soon over you go.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 8:49 PM
Post #14 of 56 (3203 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm flopping all over the place

I think the answer is more simple than some.

Stop flopping. That is what an experienced jumper does, they trust the right body position to work, and it does.

You are the one in control of whether you flop or not. The reason you flop is likely because you perceive not being stable and trying to correct. Just stop trying to correct and ride it out for a while. It is fun. You've already probably heard how to exit, just do it and ride it out, without letting yourself flop. If you do actually go on your back/unstable/whatever, there will be plenty of time to fix it later, just don't flop for several seconds. Ride the hill, it is fun. Have more confidence than is justified, that also helps.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Jun 3, 2012, 8:50 PM)


jinlee  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 10:10 PM
Post #15 of 56 (3179 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm flopping all over the place

I think the answer is more simple than some.

Stop flopping. That is what an experienced jumper does, they trust the right body position to work, and it does.

You are the one in control of whether you flop or not. The reason you flop is likely because you perceive not being stable and trying to correct. Just stop trying to correct and ride it out for a while. It is fun. You've already probably heard how to exit, just do it and ride it out, without letting yourself flop. If you do actually go on your back/unstable/whatever, there will be plenty of time to fix it later, just don't flop for several seconds. Ride the hill, it is fun. Have more confidence than is justified, that also helps.

Best advice I've seen.

Exit and do *nothing*

Don't flail, flop or try to correct your exit, simply exit, RELAX, and maintain your relaxed exit.

The only part of your body that should be moving is your eyes. The plane can be a reference if you want to look up at that. I like to see the spot and the line of flight, and those I've exited with so my eyes will see more than you are seeing but relax. Your only jumping out of a moving airplane in flight at 14,000 feet. No big deal Tongue


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:12 AM
Post #16 of 56 (3124 views)
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Re: [Tuukka] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Have your tried jumping into sitflying position with your back against the wind?

She is talking about dive exits. Thanks anyway.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:14 AM
Post #17 of 56 (3123 views)
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Re: [rwieder] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It doesn't matter how unstable you are when you exit, or your in free fall etc...ARCH fixes EVERYTHING.

Ummmm...it DOES matter. Very much so.
Think emergency bailout at low altitude.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:16 AM
Post #18 of 56 (3122 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was not a natural at exits. Sometime around 60 jumps I did 5-7 hop and pops in a row just to work on exits and canopy control. That helped a lot.
Excellent, excellent, excellent!
I wish all students would do just that.
It something I push quite heavily....stable exits and canopy work.

ALL STUDENTS:
Learn to exit stable. It can be a life-saver.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:27 AM
Post #19 of 56 (3121 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm flopping all over the place

I think the answer is more simple than some.

Stop flopping. That is what an experienced jumper does, they trust the right body position to work, and it does.

You are the one in control of whether you flop or not. The reason you flop is likely because you perceive not being stable and trying to correct. Just stop trying to correct and ride it out for a while. It is fun. You've already probably heard how to exit, just do it and ride it out, without letting yourself flop. If you do actually go on your back/unstable/whatever, there will be plenty of time to fix it later, just don't flop for several seconds. Ride the hill, it is fun. Have more confidence than is justified, that also helps.

Good stuff here. It reflects my own personal problem with dive exits.

After diving, I would feel like I was about to flip heels over head and would give up on it and go ahead and pitch forward intentionally.

Somebody told me the above advice...just hold it no matter what.

Dive out with 45 degree tilt, right arm up with hips to the wind, feet on the butt, arms slightly out and HOLD IT!

First try....it worked.

One tip I got on the 45 degree bit that worked for me was:

On exit, look under your right elbow. If you can see the prop just under your elbow, you have the right angle then turn your head to the left to see where you are going.
(left side door exits)


JackC1

Jun 4, 2012, 7:23 AM
Post #20 of 56 (3071 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

With dive exits, I tend to try and curl my legs up over my back and extend my arms over my head. That tends to stop the front loop that sometimes happens. They do take a little practice though as you tend to go very head low, especially out of tailgate aircraft.

A fun thing to try is to intentionally do a loop on exit and arch out when the planet comes around again. It works with a front loop exit diving out and a back loop exit where you hop out head up facing the tail of the plane and just tuck your knees up and look up. You'd be surprised how quickly you can get stable after an intentional loop. You can do it to get stable in any orientation you want, belly flying, sit, head down. I love em.

For a head up facing the front type exit (poised ish), think of it like getting off a bus while it's still moving. You need to slide out facing the direction of flight and place yourself gently on the wind, don't throw yourself out like a lunatic of the momentum will flip you around.

Well, that's how I do it anyway.


dthames  (B 37674)

Jun 4, 2012, 7:42 AM
Post #21 of 56 (3057 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

I am still a student, not a teacher, but I did my first diving exit yesterday. I have been jumping at a C-182 DZ but I am on a family trip and near a turbo DZ. I went yesterday for a coached up and then a fun jump. I had not done a diving exit and I thought, why not (fun jump). I just pretended the direction of the aircraft flight was where the "earth" was. I launched myself out the Otter door, head slightly down, left shoulder toward the real earth, belly toward the direction of flight, and arched real good like I was falling in that direction. It went smooth as silk.


Namowal  (A 63059)

Jun 4, 2012, 8:54 AM
Post #22 of 56 (3014 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I was not a natural at exits. Sometime around 60 jumps I did 5-7 hop and pops in a row just to work on exits and canopy control. That helped a lot.
Excellent, excellent, excellent!
I wish all students would do just that.
It something I push quite heavily....stable exits and canopy work.

Well, I am signed up for a canopy course that will involve a bunch of hop and pops, so I'll have some opportunities to practice the exit. I'm still a bit spooked doing hop and pops- afraid I'll still be unstable at pull time. (I found myself flipped over on my student H&P but was able to get stable and pull. )


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 4, 2012, 9:09 AM
Post #23 of 56 (2999 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm still a bit spooked doing hop and pops- afraid I'll still be unstable at pull time

First off, remember that it takes 10 seconds to drop through the first 1000ft, so there's no rush. If you leave at 5k, you have 10 seconds to get stable and pull by 4k. Also, remember that the longer you fall, the easier it will be to get stable. You'll be building airspeed the whole time, and your arch will be more effective the closer you get to terminal velocity.

With the above in mind, start doing some hop n pops this weekend, and arrange for one of the jumpers on the load to film your exit. They can film it from the door and still continue on to do their own jump, so that's free video. Once on the ground, get a copy of the video and pin down one of the staff members to review it with you. It won't take more than 2 min or so, and that's free coaching.

Be sure to look at things like where you're looking, the alaignment of your shoulders and hips with the relative wind, and your overall body position (are you even arching? are you holding the arch, or breaking it when you go a little off kilter?). You should be able to locate the source of your problem, and then have some things to focus on for your next jump.

So free video, free coaching, and nothing to focus on but the exit as there's no freefall to follow. You'll get more jumps in, and be able to work on canopy control with no traffic as well.

You might be intimidated by exits and hop n pops, but this is how you can turn that around and make those your strong point.


Namowal  (A 63059)

Jun 4, 2012, 9:16 AM
Post #24 of 56 (2989 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm flopping all over the place

I think the answer is more simple than some.

Stop flopping. That is what an experienced jumper does, they trust the right body position to work, and it does.

You are the one in control of whether you flop or not. The reason you flop is likely because you perceive not being stable and trying to correct. Just stop trying to correct and ride it out for a while. It is fun. You've already probably heard how to exit, just do it and ride it out, without letting yourself flop. If you do actually go on your back/unstable/whatever, there will be plenty of time to fix it later, just don't flop for several seconds. Ride the hill, it is fun. Have more confidence than is justified, that also helps.

Good stuff here. It reflects my own personal problem with dive exits.

After diving, I would feel like I was about to flip heels over head and would give up on it and go ahead and pitch forward intentionally.

Somebody told me the above advice...just hold it no matter what.

Dive out with 45 degree tilt, right arm up with hips to the wind, feet on the butt, arms slightly out and HOLD IT!

First try....it worked.

One tip I got on the 45 degree bit that worked for me was:

On exit, look under your right elbow. If you can see the prop just under your elbow, you have the right angle then turn your head to the left to see where you are going.
(left side door exits)
Ah ha! I bet the flopping is from trying to over correct.
While I was (obviously) aware I was being flipped over, it wasn't until I saw videos of my exits that I realized I was doing the Jerry Lewis routine. I didn't remember actually flailing, but I do remember thinking "gosh, I'm not really stable, better fix this..."
Thanks for the suggestions!


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 4, 2012, 9:17 AM
Post #25 of 56 (2989 views)
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Re: [dthames] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just pretended the direction of the aircraft flight was where the "earth" was. I launched myself out the Otter door, head slightly down, left shoulder toward the real earth, belly toward the direction of flight, and arched real good like I was falling in that direction. It went smooth as silk.
Very nice job.Smile

And you're right. So much of having a good exit depends on proper presentation to the relative wind as soon as you leave the plane. For any exit. decide how to present your hips into the relative wind properly, and dive/hop/stroll/tumble out accordingly. Proper presentation to the relative wind on exit gets you off to a smooth start. Then it only takes a little bit of arch to stay there.

Dave was right about emergency exits. I once had to leave at 1200' due to an engine out emergency. I did a diving exit and pulled a second or two later, nice and stable. I was head down compared to the horizon but flat and stable on the relative wind. Cool


Abedy  (D 10153)

Jun 4, 2012, 10:37 AM
Post #26 of 56 (1085 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

If it is any comfort to you, stable exits at 40+ jumps is something for them young jumpwonders. At 29, you ain't. Cool
I also had problems with dive exits until I jumped out an AN2 at 1500 m. The door is hiiigh, but no that wide so I didn't focus that much on slither "parallel" out. I just presented my chest to the wind and arched and... didn't tumble, wow. There's (IIRC!) a video from Skydive University - Basic Body Flight - where you can see the instructor sort of jumping out straight (almost 90 to the line of flight) but presenting his chest to the relative wind and his right leg higher than his left one. This way, he smoothly slides down the hill.
I then fine tuned my exit and got them more and more "close to the line of flight", i. e. my angle of diving out the door and the l.o.f. becoming smaller and smaller.
As a number of others said: Do some h&p jumps, you got plenty of time to get stable and only need to focus on the exit and will be surprised that you pretty soon got about 7-8s to spare for intentional somersaults, barrel rolls etc pp Wink
The free-coaching approach (having s.o. taping your exits and discussing them with an instructor) is another valuable tool.
If you do a floating exit: Not only try to look at the instructor in the door but - after some confidence-building jumps - try to wave - with both arms - at them. Looks great on tape and is a good means to really keep you arched and keep your gaze fixed towards the door.


Tuukka  (A License)

Jun 4, 2012, 12:14 PM
Post #27 of 56 (1050 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Have your tried jumping into sitflying position with your back against the wind?

She is talking about dive exits. Thanks anyway.

Yes I know. I just think the problem is more mental than technique.
Friend of mine had the same problem with straight exits.
Trying the same thing over and over might not solve the problem quickest.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 12:55 PM
Post #28 of 56 (1030 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Dave was right about emergency exits. I once had to leave at 1200' due to an engine out emergency. I did a diving exit and pulled a second or two later, nice and stable. I was head down compared to the horizon but flat and stable on the relative wind. Cool
Good stuff, John!
Main or reserve?
LaughLaughWink

Since Dave didn't specifically mention emergency bailouts in Post#23 and only addressed 5K H&Ps, let me add for Namowal and other young jumpers:

This whole thing about H&P is preparing you for emergency bailout situations.
There are two exits that you will need to perfect in case of low-altitude bailouts.
- Upright, square to the relative wind
- Diving, head down and away

Your bailout may have to use one or the other for stability at pull time. At low altitude (5K is high) you may not get enough altitude to burn to 'get stable' before you lose too much of it.

What do you imagine would have happened had it been YOU that had to bail at 1200 at this time?

I differ from one of the posters above. 40 jumps should have stable emergency exits down pat by now.

It's important that you develop proficiency at one or the other, preferably both, before you actually have to use one.

It's obvious that you are working on it and my hat is off to you. I'd offer my pants too, but you wouldn't be buying that.
Angelic

You didn't mention it but I hope you already have a good upright, square to the wind exit in your toolbox.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jun 4, 2012, 12:55 PM)


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 4, 2012, 1:52 PM
Post #29 of 56 (1012 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry to say I am at 58 jumps and can not do a poised exit still Personally at the end of my rope> sorry not the inspiration you wanted was hoping you would give me some.


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 4, 2012, 2:09 PM
Post #30 of 56 (998 views)
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Re: [Amyr] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

I had instructors doing nothing but exit jumps with me took a canopy class did hop n pops thought in my mind it was all fixed and was videoed my last jump and i still hop to the side and do not look up at the plane on my hop n pop turned slight as well. SO if you find a fix Namowal please let me know


Namowal  (A 63059)

Jun 4, 2012, 2:28 PM
Post #31 of 56 (986 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What do you imagine would have happened had it been YOU that had to bail at 1200 at this time?
Duck Soup. That's what would happen. Unsure
Or this...

Quote:
It's obvious that you are working on it and my hat is off to you. I'd offer my pants too, but you wouldn't be buying that.
Angelic
Heh heh. :)
It has crossed my mind that poor exit + low bailout could be serious trouble- all the more reason to get my act together.
In reply to:
You didn't mention it but I hope you already have a good upright, square to the wind exit in your toolbox.
Actually, I don't believe I was ever trained to do an upright exit. All the supervised, unattached exits were either floats or dives. Maybe the assumption is that most jumpers are competent enough to dive out stable in the event of an emergency.
Come to think of it, I'm behind the curve in general. My DZ is very noob friendly and offers frequent coaching for us. Here's how this usually runs down.
1st jump: Coach prepares something a normal jumper at my experience should be able to do. S/he thinks I'm just being modest when I say it might be trouble.
Subsequent Jumps: Much simpler stuff, to get me up to speed. It's wonderful help, but I wish I wasn't so @&!# slow. It's like sitting on a rattlesnake- embarrassing and dangerous at the same time.Crazy


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 4, 2012, 3:04 PM
Post #32 of 56 (974 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Once you learn it, it'll stay learned, because you'll understand why it works. And someday it might just make you a better coach or instructor, or even just experienced jumper who jumps with newbies.

Wendy P.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:13 PM
Post #33 of 56 (946 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
had it been YOU that had to bail at 1200 at this time?
Duck Soup. That's what would happen. Unsure

Of course, going back to basics, you don't have to be stable to pull. Get the f. out of the plane and pull. (Belly-ish to wind would be nice.) Plenty of students and pilots bailing out have pulled unstable and were fine. Sure there are added risks of line twists down low or having a leg caught in lines causing a mal, but the risk of something going seriously bad is low, especially compared to the alternative.

If you've done floats, dives, and are going to work on upright exits, also consider later trying out dives straight to the side. There one needs to be rolled left somewhat to be belly to wind. Belly doesn't have to fact directly forwards; partway forwards and down is OK.

Oh, one more thing about exits that I think hasn't been mentioned: In a dive down or dive to the side, one doesn't want rotational momentum where one is pitching down. One wants to try more to exit on a certain angle and keep that angle, not exit with a lot of downwards pitching, which can keep going until the jumper flips over. If one is trying to clear the door sill and dive down steep one tends to have some rotational momentum going, because one does have to go from crounched in the plane to diving head down, but one tries to minimize the rotation. (And that's where arms out and legs up helps after exit.)

To get an idea what I mean, maybe you've seen vid of bad old time BASE exits? Newbies at Bridge Day? Pushing off with a lot of "diving down" pitching puts jumpers over onto their back, especially with little airflow for control.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 6:55 PM
Post #34 of 56 (920 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Actually, I don't believe I was ever trained to do an upright exit.

Here's how I teach an upright exit and it is good for emergencies too.

For left-side door exits (Otter, say):

When the group before you exits, go to the door and place your right foot on the edge of the door sill at say, a 45 degree angle toes towards the wing.

When the proper number of seconds for separation hits, push off on your right foot and rotate to place your body into the wind parallel with the wing. You will want a slightly angled presentation with your head slightly closer to the nose of the plane than your feet.

(Edited to add: Do NOT jump UP. We are simply rotating out the door, not jumping.

Keep your legs out and feet even and your arms in a normal box position with your head up looking at the wing.

Keep your eyes on the plane as you fall away.

If you feel like you are rotating over to your left or right, you can correct using the arm turn maneuvers that you already know how to do.

Try it! You'll like it!
Wink

First, please note that in the case of emergencies we are not hesitating in the door and we'll be exiting quickly behind the person in front of you. How quickly depends on the altitude, the planes stability and how excited the guy behind you gets before he pushes you out.
LaughLaughTongue

When you are practicing, it would be a good idea to do practice touches/pulls right out the door because in a low altitude emergency, you might be needing to pull at one second after exit.

Yes, there other methods that work and some may be offered to you in this thread.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jun 4, 2012, 6:56 PM)


dthames  (B 37674)

Jun 5, 2012, 4:24 AM
Post #35 of 56 (874 views)
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Re: [Amyr] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sorry to say I am at 58 jumps and can not do a poised exit still Personally at the end of my rope> sorry not the inspiration you wanted was hoping you would give me some.

Do you ever jump from something other than the C-206?


Namowal  (A 63059)

Jun 5, 2012, 8:35 AM
Post #36 of 56 (847 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info. Cool
In reply to:
In reply to:
Actually, I don't believe I was ever trained to do an upright exit.

Here's how I teach an upright exit and it is good for emergencies too.

For left-side door exits (Otter, say):

When the group before you exits, go to the door and place your right foot on the edge of the door sill at say, a 45 degree angle toes towards the wing.

When the proper number of seconds for separation hits, push off on your right foot and rotate to place your body into the wind parallel with the wing. You will want a slightly angled presentation with your head slightly closer to the nose of the plane than your feet.

(Edited to add: Do NOT jump UP. We are simply rotating out the door, not jumping.


Keep your legs out and feet even and your arms in a normal box position with your head up looking at the wing.

Keep your eyes on the plane as you fall away.

If you feel like you are rotating over to your left or right, you can correct using the arm turn maneuvers that you already know how to do.

Try it! You'll like it!
Wink

First, please note that in the case of emergencies we are not hesitating in the door and we'll be exiting quickly behind the person in front of you. How quickly depends on the altitude, the planes stability and how excited the guy behind you gets before he pushes you out.
LaughLaughTongue

When you are practicing, it would be a good idea to do practice touches/pulls right out the door because in a low altitude emergency, you might be needing to pull at one second after exit.

Yes, there other methods that work and some may be offered to you in this thread.


shah269  (A 59581)

Jun 5, 2012, 11:25 AM
Post #37 of 56 (800 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

You know what's over rated!
Stability! I mean really have you seen these free flyers! And when you watch them in slow motion! MY GOD! Everything looks better in slow motion! Even a sneeze!

OK the BS aside, we are talking about the hill here right guys and gals? Well my two cents on the issue is this, stability is easy out the door.
OK step to the door, place right foot in front of left, square shoulders and hold the door, push out with your right foot and kick out with your left foot and punch out with your left hand don't worry your right hand will go with you. Think of it like you are jumping out from behind a corner to scare someone!

You are going to look like this
0// ==>(Boo wind! I'm like going skydiving and stuff!)
(
\\

\\0 ==>(Oh I'm in and ready to go DOOOR!)
)
//

\0/ ==>(Yo wind! Check out my stability!)
(
/ \
And as you "slide" down the hill I then get a little more comfortable and have even been able to track "up" the hill.
So you can look like this

0 ==>(Sup buddies I be tracking up da hill!)
/\
/\

As a N00B I've noticed this has worked very well for me. But remember you want to track perpendicular (he he he said dick) away from the jump run so you don't meet anyone in the air. So work with your coach to figure out how to do that ok!

Also not saying it's right or wrong but I noticed that the same type of out=>in=>out=>track helped me with getting stable quick on low altitude skydives.

(_)3 Beer!

This is a cat!
>^..^<
This is a dog
^..^
And this is a man
O}-<
And this is a chick
Q<-<


(This post was edited by shah269 on Jun 5, 2012, 11:26 AM)


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 5, 2012, 2:47 PM
Post #38 of 56 (767 views)
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Re: [dthames] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Jumped from a otter a caravan and a King Air. Except for my first exit out of the King air they all seemed to be ok. But It is the dropzone with the cesena 206 I wanted to call home.
But Reading in previous post By now I should have mastered it and am a danger to myself and the other jumpers my not being able to perform it properly.

Not going to bowl>> probably take up sitting on the internet talking to skydivers


lookoutbelow  (A 63826)

Jun 5, 2012, 3:13 PM
Post #39 of 56 (753 views)
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Re: [shah269] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
0
/\
/\

This is how I made my first hop and pop exit a few jumps back. I was worried about what exit to use. My normal head first exit is fine, but never felt like I was ready to immediately open. After watching enough videos of clean hop and pops, the jump to the side, facing forward (being sure to not throw myself backwards), and arms down, with a slight arch in hip and legs seemed to always be clean and quick. I made two test exits like that and 13.5 and both were amazingly clean. Several seconds into it, you either pull the chute, if a hop and pop, or transition your arms to standard belly position if an altitude exit. Worked for me.


extreme78  (C 39615)

Jun 5, 2012, 4:39 PM
Post #40 of 56 (727 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Im sure that you heard this one many times before but what worked for me was watching the plane fly away and arch.
No worries about arm and legs possition, just arch and make sure you smile at the people in the plane :-)
Fixed my exits in one afternoon.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 5, 2012, 5:05 PM
Post #41 of 56 (721 views)
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Re: [Amyr] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jumped from a otter a caravan and a King Air. Except for my first exit out of the King air they all seemed to be ok. But It is the dropzone with the cesena 206 I wanted to call home.
But Reading in previous post By now I should have mastered it and am a danger to myself and the other jumpers my not being able to perform it properly.

Not going to bowl>> probably take up sitting on the internet talking to skydivers

Don't take advice off the internet. If you or your instructors feel you are unsafe then stop. Otherwise so long as you are having fun, who cares if you are taking longer to pick things up? Not everyone is a natural and some of us are slow learners. I'm sure you've heard about Wendy.

I took ages to get off student status - I was terrified of jumping and would promise to become a nun on the way up if I lived! That and being a broke student really slowed me down. But on the ground after a jump my smile was HUGE.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 5, 2012, 5:57 PM
Post #42 of 56 (708 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I was terrified of jumping and would promise to become a nun on the way up if I lived!
If I remember rightly, you're a guy. That'd really be a huge commitment! Laugh

Wendy P.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 5, 2012, 6:31 PM
Post #43 of 56 (700 views)
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Re: [lookoutbelow] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
0
/\
/\

...the jump to the side, facing forward (being sure to not throw myself backwards), and arms down, with a slight arch in hip and legs seemed to always be clean and quick.
Yep, that works well and is easy to learn, too!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 5, 2012, 6:37 PM
Post #44 of 56 (695 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I was terrified of jumping and would promise to become a nun on the way up if I lived!
If I remember rightly, you're a guy. That'd really be a huge commitment! Laugh

Wendy P.

Nigel would make a great nun...a little wax on the beard, a little ear hair removal...hey, nearly any priest would hit it.
LaughLaugh


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 5, 2012, 7:34 PM
Post #45 of 56 (684 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I'm still a bit spooked doing hop and pops- afraid I'll still be unstable at pull time

First off, remember that it takes 10 seconds to drop through the first 1000ft, so there's no rush. If you leave at 5k, you have 10 seconds to get stable and pull by 4k. Also, remember that the longer you fall, the easier it will be to get stable. You'll be building airspeed the whole time, and your arch will be more effective the closer you get to terminal velocity.

With the above in mind, start doing some hop n pops this weekend, and arrange for one of the jumpers on the load to film your exit. They can film it from the door and still continue on to do their own jump, so that's free video. Once on the ground, get a copy of the video and pin down one of the staff members to review it with you. It won't take more than 2 min or so, and that's free coaching.

Be sure to look at things like where you're looking, the alaignment of your shoulders and hips with the relative wind, and your overall body position (are you even arching? are you holding the arch, or breaking it when you go a little off kilter?). You should be able to locate the source of your problem, and then have some things to focus on for your next jump.

So free video, free coaching, and nothing to focus on but the exit as there's no freefall to follow. You'll get more jumps in, and be able to work on canopy control with no traffic as well.

You might be intimidated by exits and hop n pops, but this is how you can turn that around and make those your strong point.

Didn't want to chop any of this out - Dave's posting is perfect advice for you.

I did want to comment on the not rushing. I had a lovely experience on a HnP out of a side door (as opposed to rollup) Cessna where I felt a bit cramped by the height, hurled myself out into a full loop, but tossed the PC before I came about - it hooked around my foot. Fortunately I was able to toe point like in a track and let it slip free to deploy, but it did burn some altitude. In a rush exit, or even just a lower 3k HnP, that would have been a low opening. This was during a canopy class so I got several more tries at it in that particular plane. Your canopy class will be a great opportunity to get better at this, and once you've got it, you can get to the point where you can exit and open within a couple hundred feet, which Pops points out is a rather important skill to have.

I am one of those who learned the dive far sooner than the poised exit. Part of it I think is the height of many of the doors coupled with me being a bit stiff and inflexible after the ride up in steerage class. The King Air was much easier than the otter or the really short Pac, as the curved fuselage meant I could stand 6' tall inside. Or it may be my trouble with stepping out sideways, but wary of hopping up with that tail stablizer behind me, without imparting a twist. They taught me the dive for my HnPs out of a 182 and it stuck immediately for me. I could watch the prior exit, count off some time, and already be in position to dive out.


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 5, 2012, 8:58 PM
Post #46 of 56 (669 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you or your instructors feel you are unsafe then stop. Otherwise so long as you are having fun, who cares if you are taking longer to pick things up? Not everyone is a natural and some of us are slow learners. I'm sure you've heard about Wendy.

Main problem is its not fun anymore. 6000 in hole and my budget was 4000 for an A license . Even had a budget for a parachute at the end all blown, Each time it was but your so close and you do not want to waste the money you spent

I think a break is in order a long break because I am a risk. Cut my loses

Your advice comes late Nigel but not too late!

I have heard about Wendy So Wendy how did you swing the money end of learning to skydive?????


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 5, 2012, 10:45 PM
Post #47 of 56 (656 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I was terrified of jumping and would promise to become a nun on the way up if I lived!
If I remember rightly, you're a guy. That'd really be a huge commitment! Laugh

Wendy P.

Very true. My parents are super religious. They would have been proud to know how much I prayed on the way upAngelic.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 5, 2012, 10:48 PM
Post #48 of 56 (654 views)
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Re: [Amyr] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you or your instructors feel you are unsafe then stop. Otherwise so long as you are having fun, who cares if you are taking longer to pick things up? Not everyone is a natural and some of us are slow learners. I'm sure you've heard about Wendy.

Main problem is its not fun anymore. 6000 in hole and my budget was 4000 for an A license . Even had a budget for a parachute at the end all blown, Each time it was but your so close and you do not want to waste the money you spent

I think a break is in order a long break because I am a risk. Cut my loses

Your advice comes late Nigel but not too late!

I have heard about Wendy So Wendy how did you swing the money end of learning to skydive?????

Sorry to hear that. No point if it isn't fun, much better to find something you enjoy. If you like skydivers manifest girl is a cool jobSmile


Abedy  (D 10153)

Jun 5, 2012, 10:49 PM
Post #49 of 56 (654 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't take advice off the internet.

Does this rule apply to your own advice, too?

Catch22ish sort of, huh?
Just musing... CoolAngelic


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 5, 2012, 11:07 PM
Post #50 of 56 (652 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Don't take advice off the internet.

Does this rule apply to your own advice, too?

Catch22ish sort of, huh?
Just musing... CoolAngelic

Mines not advice, simply an opinionAngelic


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 6, 2012, 1:19 AM
Post #51 of 56 (460 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Sorry to hear that. No point if it isn't fun, much better to find something you enjoy. If you like skydivers manifest girl is a cool jobSmile

I liked pretending to be a skydiver. >never felt anything more then a tourist or guest so manifest girl is out of the question. And i like the people on dropzone.com have met people from all levels.


(This post was edited by Amyr on Jun 6, 2012, 1:22 AM)


strop45  (D 957)

Jun 6, 2012, 1:35 AM
Post #52 of 56 (452 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Look on the bright side, you won't have any worries or concerns about being unstable Smile

Things that worked for me - visualize how you should exit, practise.. imagine holding plane, exit with body in arch, relaxed but facing into wind with hips forward... repeat...with eyes closed imagine looking at prop, then wing as you fall away...

Relax and keep jumping, it will come to you.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 6, 2012, 1:44 AM
Post #53 of 56 (451 views)
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Re: [Amyr] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Sorry to hear that. No point if it isn't fun, much better to find something you enjoy. If you like skydivers manifest girl is a cool jobSmile

I liked pretending to be a skydiver. >never felt anything more then a tourist or guest so manifest girl is out of the question. And i like the people on dropzone.com have met people from all levels.

Don't let the snobs get you downUnimpressed. Only tandems are tourists. You don't have to forget any concept of personal hygiene and live in a trailer to be a skydiverTongue

Hanging at a dz is cool. Of course if manifest girl doesn't appeal, packer is good too. Bonus points for packing in a bikini.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 6, 2012, 5:16 AM
Post #54 of 56 (435 views)
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Re: [Amyr] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

You aren't pretending to be a skydiver. You're a skydiver. And you've kept doing it when a lot of people would have quit.

BTW -- it's a different Wendy who had so many problems. But I do know that having to do a door exit instead of a strut exit delayed by static line progression by several jumps. It's not easy.

Whatever you decide, you're a skydiver.

As far as how to get stable, the only other thing I can suggest would be to try a different airport, with a different airplane. I think you're used to a 206 with a cargo door. Maybe trying a DZ with a strut airplane. And as far as relaxing -- think of letting the wind just blow your arms and legs back; pretend they're little slips of paper attached to your body, and the wind is blowing them back.

Good luck, Amy, regardless of what you decide. You're a skydiver. And if jumping isn't fun any more, well, you're still a skydiver, and you're still welcome here.

Wendy P.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jun 6, 2012, 6:41 AM
Post #55 of 56 (417 views)
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Re: [Amyr] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you have plenty of knowledge about the proper body position, and you're likely doing it well enough. I think you're probably just making unnecessary corrections. Why not try closing your eyes for several seconds as soon as you step out. It might help you to ignore the desire to make corrections when you don't need to. It would probably be fun.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Jun 6, 2012, 6:42 AM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 6, 2012, 8:35 AM
Post #56 of 56 (402 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Unstable Exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think you have plenty of knowledge about the proper body position, and you're likely doing it well enough. I think you're probably just making unnecessary corrections. Why not try closing your eyes for several seconds as soon as you step out. It might help you to ignore the desire to make corrections when you don't need to. It would probably be fun.
What he said. I've seen many exits start off great and then the person starts kicking, twisting and flailing weirdly. Remember that the horizon is an INCORRECT reference the first 3-4 seconds out the door. Smile



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