Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
what type of turn if you are to low to swoop

 


jtfreefly  (D 29482)

Jun 2, 2012, 9:36 PM
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what type of turn if you are to low to swoop Can't Post

What turn do you do if you realize you screwed up and did not get your pattern right, and need to do a turn that conserves altitude so that you can still get turned around into the wind?


Nukrites  (D 30239)

Jun 2, 2012, 11:11 PM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

you don`t have to land in to the wind....


freeflyn  (D License)

Jun 2, 2012, 11:37 PM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

flat turn


DaVinciflies

Jun 3, 2012, 12:53 AM
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In reply to:
What turn do you do if you realize you screwed up and did not get your pattern right, and need to do a turn that conserves altitude so that you can still get turned around into the wind?

I am interested in why you would ask this question. The answer is "it depends".

If I miss my IP at 550' I can still do a 180 to as low as 450' by speeding up the turn (this is not a guess - I know this from performance enveloping up high). Another option is a flat turn 90 and then a front riser 90, or a gentle toggle carve or a flat turn or land down/crosswind.

Which of the above options I choose depends on how low I am, space/outs available, traffic, winds etc etc...

I hope this answer demonstrates that there is no one right answer which is one reason why swooping is so much more than just flying to a point and hauling on a riser.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 6:03 AM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

It depends.

If you're in traffic, a flat turn to get with what I like to call "the school of fish" to land. However, a swooper should never be in that situation in the first place. Swooping in traffic is exactly why we are swoopers are the bad guys on the DZ.

If you're not in traffic, just land safely. By the time that someone is making a high performance turn to landing, they should be comfortable with not landing into the wind. If the winds are too high for you to land downwind, then you may want to wait to do a jump until the winds calm down.

Never try to salvage a swoop. Once the approach is blown, go land safely and try again on the next jump.


jtfreefly  (D 29482)

Jun 3, 2012, 6:32 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

ok. I am comfortable doing downwinds, yesterday I just found myself feeling that I probably should not complete my 180 where I was. I started my dowinwind part of my approach too late. So I just did a braked turn and then a 90 degree front riser turn. Is that ok? Or is there a better way?


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 6:43 AM
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In reply to:
ok. I am comfortable doing downwinds, yesterday I just found myself feeling that I probably should not complete my 180 where I was. I started my dowinwind part of my approach too late. So I just did a braked turn and then a 90 degree front riser turn. Is that ok? Or is there a better way?

Maybe.

It really all depends on what's going on.

Personally outside of a major competition, I'm more inclined to simply just turn for a standard landing in and laugh about my piss-poor approach, than try tossing some other front riser turn.

My next question is are you flying a downwind to turn or are you flying downwind to a base leg before turning out for your 180 approach?


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jun 3, 2012, 1:18 PM
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In reply to:
What turn do you do if you realize you screwed up and did not get your pattern right, and need to do a turn that conserves altitude so that you can still get turned around into the wind?

It depends.

Somewhat low you have a lot of latitude to adjust turn rate and space used.

With less altitude fly a normal non-swooping pattern and land normally.

Very low it means flat and perhaps flaring.

The simplest and using the least altitude + distance is pulling both toggles down to 3/4 brakes to kill your descent rate + forward drive; lifting the outside one part way to get a nice balance between flat and a quick pivot; and being prepared to PLF if you're not proficient at flaring from braked approaches and don't have enough altitude left to get back to full flight for a regular flare.

This works on every canopy I own - Samurai 105 elliptical, Stiletto 120 elliptical, Monarch 135 square, 244 Dagger F111 seven cell, 245 Fox F111 seven cell.

With more skill and altitude you can turn with a toggle adding opposite toggle to keep the canopy at trim speed as you turn (add some harness to get a higher turn rate). When you run out of altitude you can flare harder and faster than you normally would in the turn and maintain it until you get to your desired heading or are getting short of lift at which point you get the canopy back over your head and finish flaring + landing in whatever cross-wind direction you were headed.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Jun 3, 2012, 1:34 PM)


RichLees

Jun 4, 2012, 2:26 AM
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The simplest and using the least altitude + distance is pulling both toggles down to 3/4 brakes to kill your descent rate + forward drive; lifting the outside one part way to get a nice balance between flat and a quick pivot; and being prepared to PLF if you're not proficient at flaring from braked approaches and don't have enough altitude left to get back to full flight for a regular flare.

Depending on amount of roll, rate of toggle depression, WL etc, this can get you surprisingly close to stalling the inside end of a Velo which will spin up real quick.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 4, 2012, 4:28 AM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What turn do you do if you realize you screwed up and did not get your pattern right, and need to do a turn that conserves altitude so that you can still get turned around into the wind?

The simple answer is a flat turn.

The more complex answer is that this shouldn't even be a question for someone who is already swooping. Swooping should be at the end of the progression learning to fly your canopy. The last thing you should be doing is trying to dive your canopy hard close to the ground.

If you really think about it, when you swoop you're looking for the maximum dive (altitude loss) from your turn. With that in mind, you could do any other turn you could think of (up to the same degree of your planned turn) and use up less altitude than you originally planned.

While looking at the 'simple answer', the flat turn, keep in mind that if your plan goes from a long, diving, turn for a swoop to a flat turn, you have made a HUGE error in your set up.


jtfreefly  (D 29482)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:35 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks to all. I appreciate it.


morris

Jun 13, 2012, 3:52 AM
Post #12 of 45 (4540 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
With more skill and altitude you can turn with a toggle adding opposite toggle to keep the canopy at trim speed as you turn (add some harness to get a higher turn rate). When you run out of altitude you can flare harder and faster than you normally would in the turn and maintain it until you get to your desired heading or are getting short of lift at which point you get the canopy back over your head and finish flaring + landing in whatever cross-wind direction you were headed.
Nice one! But: Adding OPPOSITE harness input will allow you to apply more toggleinput, resulting in a faster turnrate - but without creating too much bankangle and without resulting in a too steep pitch...


swoopgaz  (E 1964)

Jun 13, 2012, 4:57 AM
Post #13 of 45 (4528 views)
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

You DO NOT have to do a turn to land. If you are too low you can just land straight in. People have died from still trying to get a turn in.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jun 13, 2012, 7:15 AM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't get scared and grab that front and snap it, since you are out of altitude to make a long smooth dive, and ofcourse you are going to have to trust those rears to pull you out of the dive.

Just don't miss the gate. Toggle recovery is for pussys.


krisco  (C 3244)

Jul 19, 2012, 8:53 PM
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

NEVER TOO LOW TO SWOOP!


cocheese  (D 24000)

Aug 1, 2012, 4:48 AM
Post #16 of 45 (4039 views)
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Turn in your gear. Your questions scare me. You are not ready for your next jump.






vortexr1  (D License)

Oct 8, 2012, 6:13 PM
Post #19 of 45 (3375 views)
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

STOP THE DAMN 180'S....Dangerous


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Oct 8, 2012, 8:55 PM
Post #20 of 45 (3355 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Nonsense. 180's are a perfectly acceptable turn, and part of the progression towards bigger turns.


vortexr1  (D License)

Oct 8, 2012, 10:16 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

The HELL they are!!!! Go from 90's right too 270's.... You come to lodi, mile high, z hills,deland,eloy Ill slap the shit out of you for doin that here:(... You have a blind spot... Dangerous turns... IN NOOOOOO WAY IS THAT THE PROPER PROGRESDION IN SWOOPING. Its for guys who are tea hing themselves and are hoseing themselves. Being a mod here you might NOT want to give advice on things you dont know. Ive seen you swoop and I would NOT give out advice my friend. We need to teach safe and responsible swooping techniques. Not give wrong info to newbies... Cheesedick out.


AggieDave  (D License)

Oct 9, 2012, 3:35 AM
Post #22 of 45 (3316 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The HELL they are!!!! Go from 90's right too 270's.... You come to lodi, mile high, z hills,deland,eloy Ill slap the shit out of you for doin that here:(... You have a blind spot... Dangerous turns... IN NOOOOOO WAY IS THAT THE PROPER PROGRESDION IN SWOOPING. Its for guys who are tea hing themselves and are hoseing themselves. Being a mod here you might NOT want to give advice on things you dont know. Ive seen you swoop and I would NOT give out advice my friend. We need to teach safe and responsible swooping techniques. Not give wrong info to newbies... Cheesedick out.

Strange, 180s can be done safely, it is just that in the past they weren't taught correctly, so they weren't executed correctly. Ian might talk funny, but he happens to be an accomplished swooper who travels the country competing and teaching.

Maybe you should ask how they are being taught in the modern swooping era in response to the problems that were valid points in the past before going ballistic?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Oct 9, 2012, 5:02 AM
Post #23 of 45 (3295 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting response. Incorrect (and largely incoherrant) however on many accounts.

180's may not be one of my favorite parts of a swooping progression but it is absolutely necessary. As with all things, it's a series of steps working towards an end goal.

Quote:
We need to teach safe and responsible swooping techniques. Not give wrong info to newbies

Which is exactly why I'm correcting you, and will continue to do so.

Quote:
You come to lodi, mile high, z hills,deland,eloy Ill slap the shit out of you for doin that here

You're welcome to come over and chat (since apparently you know me) and be happy to explain in more detail why you're wrong.

Ian


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Oct 9, 2012, 12:12 PM
Post #24 of 45 (3229 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The HELL they are!!!! Go from 90's right too 270's.... You come to lodi, mile high, z hills,deland,eloy Ill slap the shit out of you for doin that here:(... You have a blind spot... Dangerous turns... IN NOOOOOO WAY IS THAT THE PROPER PROGRESDION IN SWOOPING. Its for guys who are tea hing themselves and are hoseing themselves. Being a mod here you might NOT want to give advice on things you dont know. Ive seen you swoop and I would NOT give out advice my friend. We need to teach safe and responsible swooping techniques. Not give wrong info to newbies... Cheesedick out.

You really didn't think about that before you posted it. I doubt any joe blow skydiver can walk on to the factory team, so maybe he knows a little about what hes talking about.

Hmm I do 180's all the time. Mostly because I dont feel current enough to keep doing 270s. And I usually have my own airspace. If its crowded, it becomes a 90 or nothing. I sure haven't hurt or cut anyone off before. It can be done safely.


DocPop  (C License)

Oct 9, 2012, 12:54 PM
Post #25 of 45 (3219 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The HELL they are!!!! Go from 90's right too 270's.... You come to lodi, mile high, z hills,deland,eloy Ill slap the shit out of you for doin that here:(... You have a blind spot... Dangerous turns... IN NOOOOOO WAY IS THAT THE PROPER PROGRESDION IN SWOOPING. Its for guys who are tea hing themselves and are hoseing themselves. Being a mod here you might NOT want to give advice on things you dont know. Ive seen you swoop and I would NOT give out advice my friend. We need to teach safe and responsible swooping techniques. Not give wrong info to newbies... Cheesedick out.

I am absolutely incredulous at this post for a number of reasons:

1. You are threatening, immature and totally undermining your credibility before you start.
2. You offer no evidence, or even explanation, for your assertion that 180s are dangerous (other than the mistaken "blind spot" line that people trot out - see #3)
3. 180s do not have to be a blind whip into unknown airspace (indeed they should not be). The modern technique is a diving carve and anyone who can turn their head can see where they are going before they start the turn.
4. Finally, you do all the above while disagreeing with a pro-swooper and professional canopy coach in a public forum.

Bad manners, bad skills and bad attitude. It is a sign of Ian's calmness and professionalism that he has allowed your post to stand and be discussed instead of deleting it for the PA it quite clearly was.

*I suppose that I should add that #3 above does not mean I agree that it's OK to do 180s or any HP turn in traffic.


trigger  (D 101390)

Oct 9, 2012, 12:57 PM
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Re: [linebckr83] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Nail on the head....Quote..Own airspace
Land alone etc.
It's when we mix things up in the (standard) pattern that it gets dangerous for others and not just ourselves imo.


DocPop  (C License)

Oct 9, 2012, 1:01 PM
Post #27 of 45 (1520 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The HELL they are!!!! Go from 90's right too 270's.... You come to lodi, mile high, z hills,deland,eloy Ill slap the shit out of you for doin that here:(... You have a blind spot... Dangerous turns... IN NOOOOOO WAY IS THAT THE PROPER PROGRESDION IN SWOOPING. Its for guys who are tea hing themselves and are hoseing themselves. Being a mod here you might NOT want to give advice on things you dont know. Ive seen you swoop and I would NOT give out advice my friend. We need to teach safe and responsible swooping techniques. Not give wrong info to newbies... Cheesedick out.

I am also slightly amused by you the fact that you started this thread the way you did just over a year ago!!

http://www.dropzone.com/...um.cgi?post=4144847;


trigger  (D 101390)

Oct 9, 2012, 1:09 PM
Post #28 of 45 (1517 views)
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Re: [DocPop] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

RevelationShocked


vortexr1  (D License)

Oct 9, 2012, 1:48 PM
Post #29 of 45 (1512 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In noway trying to cause issues. Guess different dz s mean different learning techniques. Main thing is to be aware and safe.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 9, 2012, 9:07 PM
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Re: [DocPop] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am also slightly amused by you the fact that you started this thread the way you did just over a year ago!!

Slightly? That's hilarious is what that is.

Last summer, the guy can't figure out how to lean forward in his harness, 15 months later he's calling out a member of the PD Factory Team as to his skills or qualifications. Sounds like a classic 'mall ninja' to me.


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Oct 10, 2012, 6:45 AM
Post #31 of 45 (1433 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know how 180's used to be taught since I've only been doing this a few years, so can someone please explain to me how a 180 can have a blindspot but a 270 does not? I know my 270 technique was basically a 180 with a harness inputted 90 tacked on the end. The turns are very similar for me.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Oct 10, 2012, 7:16 AM
Post #32 of 45 (1427 views)
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Re: [linebckr83] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO opinion any turn has blind spots. The reason 180's are somewhat controversial, again imo, is that people fly goofy patterns - basically a downwind leg right up the middle of the landing area and then huck a 180. This presents a huge predictability issue, as well as having a canopy flying directly towards others on final.

I teach a slightly different pattern to minimize this issue but to some degree, for 180's, it's always there.

Blues,
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Oct 10, 2012, 7:17 AM)


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Oct 10, 2012, 8:48 AM
Post #33 of 45 (1414 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a tendency to ride in brakes before my turn, so I was taught to fly my usual pattern, then while in brakes before I start the turn, make a braked 90 turn away, then begin. That way its a traditional predictable pattern.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Oct 10, 2012, 8:53 AM
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Re: [linebckr83] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

Thats the way I teach it too Smile.

Minimal component flying anything other than a 'regular' pattern. Still, it does require a flat turn towards traffic for a few seconds to let the canopy settle out - not really ideal, but far better than the 'old' way Smile

Blues,
Ian


Willi91  (E 369)

Oct 11, 2012, 11:55 AM
Post #35 of 45 (1311 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thats the way I teach it too Smile.

Minimal component flying anything other than a 'regular' pattern. Still, it does require a flat turn towards traffic for a few seconds to let the canopy settle out - not really ideal, but far better than the 'old' way Smile

Blues,
Ian

So you're adding a short fourth leg to your landing pattern?


hparrish  (D 25090)

Oct 31, 2012, 9:08 AM
Post #36 of 45 (1181 views)
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Re: [vortexr1] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

So I guess your in a position to replace Ian on the PD Factory Team then.......with your VAST knowledge and Skills?

I think anyone with basic swooping knowledge and skills can read your posts and understand how wrong you are.

I'm not usually negative toward people on here......But you have no clue and blast out like you do.


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Oct 31, 2012, 9:20 AM
Post #37 of 45 (1178 views)
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Re: [Willi91] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Thats the way I teach it too Smile.

Minimal component flying anything other than a 'regular' pattern. Still, it does require a flat turn towards traffic for a few seconds to let the canopy settle out - not really ideal, but far better than the 'old' way Smile

Blues,
Ian

So you're adding a short fourth leg to your landing pattern?

Attached is what I was taught for a left hand pattern. Besides the area in green, its a normal pattern so it minimizes confusion like Ian said.
Attachments: 180pattern.gif (7.92 KB)


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 31, 2012, 10:42 AM
Post #38 of 45 (1165 views)
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Re: [jtfreefly] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What turn do you do if you realize you screwed up and did not get your pattern right, and need to do a turn that conserves altitude so that you can still get turned around into the wind?

WTF are you doing swooping if you don't know the answer to this question?


f94sbu  (D 16017)

Oct 31, 2012, 12:39 PM
Post #39 of 45 (1145 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What turn do you do if you realize you screwed up and did not get your pattern right, and need to do a turn that conserves altitude so that you can still get turned around into the wind?

WTF are you doing swooping if you don't know the answer to this question?

WTF are you doing on the internet if you cannot read a simple question without reading things into it that may not have been on purpose? Cool


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 31, 2012, 2:18 PM
Post #40 of 45 (1125 views)
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Re: [f94sbu] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
What turn do you do if you realize you screwed up and did not get your pattern right, and need to do a turn that conserves altitude so that you can still get turned around into the wind?

WTF are you doing swooping if you don't know the answer to this question?

WTF are you doing on the internet if you cannot read a simple question without reading things into it that may not have been on purpose? Cool

I say ploughing turn Wink.


(This post was edited by phoenixlpr on Oct 31, 2012, 2:18 PM)


NeonLights  (D License)

Jan 31, 2013, 9:06 AM
Post #41 of 45 (891 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
What turn do you do if you realize you screwed up and did not get your pattern right, and need to do a turn that conserves altitude so that you can still get turned around into the wind?

WTF are you doing swooping if you don't know the answer to this question?

WTF are you doing on the internet if you cannot read a simple question without reading things into it that may not have been on purpose? Cool

I say ploughing turn Wink.

Or an excavating turn Pirate haha


keithbar  (A 14048)

Feb 1, 2013, 7:12 PM
Post #42 of 45 (760 views)
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Re: [linebckr83] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
cut anyone off before. It can be done safely.
really? in 800 900 plus jumps you have never cut anyone off? you are either really,good. really lucky or only jump at a single 182 dzTongueTongueLaugh


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Feb 6, 2013, 12:21 PM
Post #43 of 45 (665 views)
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Re: [keithbar] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
cut anyone off before. It can be done safely.
really? in 800 900 plus jumps you have never cut anyone off? you are either really,good. really lucky or only jump at a single 182 dzTongueTongueLaugh

Mostly option 3! And maybe a little option 2, but most of my swoops are on solo passes or I pull higher and sit in brakes and wait on everyone else. When I go to bigger dz's, I either refrain from swooping or make smaller turns when there is space. I have no desire (or enough currency) to really practice big turns in crowded areas.


Juzzie  (D License)

Mar 27, 2013, 3:28 AM
Post #44 of 45 (522 views)
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Re: [krisco] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
NEVER TOO LOW TO SWOOP!


Never give up the rears!


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Mar 31, 2013, 9:45 AM
Post #45 of 45 (456 views)
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Re: [Juzzie] what type of turn if you are to low to swoop [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Power
2. Control
3. Safety

- Never give up the gates
- Always trust your rears

https://www.facebook.com/groups/sofpidarf/



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