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Bowling DZOs/managers please read

 

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Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jun 5, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #76 of 97 (1359 views)
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Re: [JoeBobJumper] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

I gave a guy the bowling speech last week. It was the second time I have done it in 20 years as an instructor. It is not an easy thing to do. Before I talked to him I discussed it with the other instructor from the last jump as well as with the DZO. The decision was not made from just that jump, but also his feedback during the ground-school as well as his first jump. We did not send him away because he was not learning fast enough, but rather because we were worried for his life. It turned out he recognized the reality and was angling for a partial refund on his program (which we gave him).
The only other time I gave the bowling speech was after a woman needed to be dumped out three times through level 5; twice by me and once by another instructor. That one was very hard as she was seeing an experienced jumper and was clearly already one of the family. She didn't take it well and asked if she could do some tunnel time and resume training. I said yes out of moral cowardice rather than from the belief that it would help her. Over the winter she went to the tunnel and resumed training at another DZ. I think she has retired now but went on to make several hundred jumps without serious injury. We have remained friends.
Was I wrong to give her the speech? Is her successful career proof that I was wrong? Hell No! Just because someone doesn't go in doesn't mean the decision process was wrong. How many 'mad skillz' canopy pilots get told they are going to die and are just fine? How many tandem masters use the drogue for stability and never get bit by it? How many drunk drivers get home perfectly safely? Decisions are made based upon perceived risk. Just because the 'higher than acceptable chance event' does not obtain doesn't mean that the risk was not there.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 5, 2012, 7:08 PM
Post #77 of 97 (1265 views)
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Re: [jclalor] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know of one DZO that will be more than happy to take all your money up front for AFF, then take 3-4 months to " fit you in between tandems". They would have no problem finding a "performance" issue to get you to stop calling.

While the vast majority of DZO's and AFFI's are on the up-and-up, it sure isn't all of them.

there are so many potential problems that can come up that I can't recommend anyone buy an AFF program upfront. The potential savings over pay as you go just don't warrant the buy-in. The would be jumper cannot reliably identify a DZ that might have weather issues, prioritize tandems, or just have a bad mesh with the instructors. I learned it the hard (well, the $$) way.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 6, 2012, 2:03 PM
Post #78 of 97 (1149 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
there are so many potential problems that can come up that I can't recommend anyone buy an AFF program upfront. .

That's sad and unfortunately true and understandable in some cases but not true in most cases I would venture.

One major thing is that the student doesn't know what he is getting into and few ask the right questions before they sign up.

The other thing is that the student is quite often limited in choices of DZs....kinda like stuck with what they get.

Fortunately (shameless plug here) we have a DZO that makes it a no-brainer to buy in up front. I like to brag that we are more about the fun than the money.

Personally, I have only given the bowling speech once so far.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 8, 2012, 12:08 PM
Post #79 of 97 (980 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
there are so many potential problems that can come up that I can't recommend anyone buy an AFF program upfront. .

That's sad and unfortunately true and understandable in some cases but not true in most cases I would venture.

One major thing is that the student doesn't know what he is getting into and few ask the right questions before they sign up.

They don't know what questions to ask. And even if I did, would the DZO have answered: "We're a tandem mill that barely tolerates upjumpers and the typical window of student acceptable conditions is 4 hours per day. But since your AFF-I will immediately get back on the plane for a tandem after your jump (and maybe 2), he won't debrief you for at least an hour, so at best you could do 2 jumps in the day, but sometimes none." I tell you, for a long time after that I couldn't take seriously the weather reports of any DZ I called.

When I took my break and then went to the new tunnel at Perris to get the stability issue fixed and did got to one jump short of solo freefall, I go back and my prepurchased AFF levels were only good for the specified level - could not use them as L7s or coach jumps or anything but what they specified.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 8, 2012, 2:40 PM
Post #80 of 97 (931 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
there are so many potential problems that can come up that I can't recommend anyone buy an AFF program upfront. .

That's sad and unfortunately true and understandable in some cases but not true in most cases I would venture.

One major thing is that the student doesn't know what he is getting into and few ask the right questions before they sign up.

In reply to:
They don't know what questions to ask.
Exactly

In reply to:
...would the DZO have answered: "We're a tandem mill that....
In some cases, yes. DZOs might hide the truth and put his DZ in the best possible light, yes.

In reply to:
I go back and my prepurchased AFF levels were only good for the specified level - could not use them as L7s or coach jumps or anything but what they specified.
Those DZ rules were either known by you beforehand or not. It sounds like you are saying they were not.

Question is, "Why?"

- you didn't ask
- they didn't tell you
- rules changed after your purchase
- you got bit by Skyride
- other....

Evidently, you had a bad experience. It's not enough to indict the entire industry.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jun 8, 2012, 2:41 PM)


crunchycracker

Jun 8, 2012, 3:07 PM
Post #81 of 97 (920 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't give up if your heart is in it. For an instructor to give the bowling speech to someone (unless due to physical condition) means student just has to find the right instructor. One could argue that aomeone isn't mentally right for the sport (and that could be true in case of mental retardation but I will say not always. I have seen mentally retarded people do amazing things that require skill awareness precision and balance). And as far as mentally unstable people? That again is the development of a relationship between instructor and student if the instructor cares enough to develop relationship and time to understand student. I think the key is the student's desire.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 8, 2012, 3:43 PM
Post #82 of 97 (907 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Evidently, you had a bad experience. It's not enough to indict the entire industry.

It's not an indictment. It's a belief, a conclusion that the free repeat AFF level or the 10 jump tickets after isn't worth the opportunity cost of paying up front and committing to that DZ. And it was hardly just my experience that lead to this.

Pay as you go. When you consider the cost of AFF and the first rig running on the higher end of the 5-10k range, $200 is worth the open choices.


Austintxflight

Jun 8, 2012, 8:50 PM
Post #83 of 97 (868 views)
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Re: [billvon] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>but how many times is the bowling speech given because it's more cost effective
>regarding the DZ's resources?

How is it cost effective? An AFF student stuck on level 4 is sort of a cash cow. One JM, two slots, hundreds of dollars a day guaranteed for the DZO.

Actually the DZ can lose money if the student buys one of the packages that is all 25 Jumps for an A then fails repeatedly. Instead of doing cheap solo jumps and coach jumps, they are paying those cheaper rates for more expensive AFF jumps. Its a situation where no one wins, the DZ is stuck honoring prices when a student is progressing and putting money into the student and the student is unhappy they are not progressing. Its a rare situation, but it does happen.


Austintxflight

Jun 8, 2012, 9:06 PM
Post #84 of 97 (866 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
dude, I've worked on different little piece of shit cessna dropzones for 4 years now Wink

I have specifically been told racist things about students in confidence by instructors and DZOs. As if I am racist I dont know what these people are thinking about me if they would talk shit about somebody to me behind their backs because they are black, indian (india indian) or whatever.

Maybe people just take a look at you WMW and realize that you're not going to be amiable toward racist talk? Again, I dont know why somebody would say racist things to me, I'm the furthest thing from racist and I inwardly despise people for letting slip any racism.

I think racism on the DZ is the same as racism in the rest of the world.

As the only regular black licensed jumper at my DZ i've not experienced much. But I like to have fun with race, I tell the white jumpers that I always have to worry about hitting the tail of the plane on exit and they don't because white people can't jump Tongue

I also tell them that once black people figure out skydiving we are going to take over just like basketball...

Also I'm trying to set the world black head down record, I need just 1 more guy to do it.


I doubt racism had much to do with this.


In regards to the OP, it sucks when no instructor at the DZ of your choice will jump with you, but in the end the safest thing is to not jump there, weather to go elsewhere or stop is up to you, but if you can't get proper training what else can you do? Good luck in your training and hope you get whatever issues sorted out!


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 9, 2012, 11:32 PM
Post #85 of 97 (807 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Also I'm trying to set the world black head down record, I need just 1 more guy to do it.




In reply to:



Now THAT'S funny! Laugh


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jun 10, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #86 of 97 (743 views)
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Re: [EVERYONE] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I gave a guy the bowling speech last week. It was the second time I have done it in 20 years as an instructor. It is not an easy thing to do. Before I talked to him I discussed it with the other instructor from the last jump as well as with the DZO. The decision was not made from just that jump, but also his feedback during the ground-school as well as his first jump. We did not send him away because he was not learning fast enough, but rather because we were worried for his life. It turned out he recognized the reality and was angling for a partial refund on his program (which we gave him).


Just my $.02 from a former Instructor.. there was a time when brief backs between I & S were thorough and in each of the series of briefings, each should have risen in urgency so as not to make this a total blindside for the student.

Shame on the previous Instructor for handing off the dirty deed for someone else to have to bear and shame on them both for not creating an environment where the Student arrives at the bowling speech on their own.


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Jun 10, 2012, 9:33 AM)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jun 10, 2012, 9:29 AM
Post #87 of 97 (731 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you are making conclusions not justified by the info I gave you.
I was the ground school instructor. I cautioned the AFFIs before his level one that he was not the best student and did not listen well. Although he passed passed level one his feedback in the plane left the instructors shaking their head. His canopy control was also very problematic.
I was the reserve side instructor on the level 2 jump with the main side being covered by the same instructor on both loads.
I led the debrief (we were both there) because I was the senior instructor and because I had spent most of the day with him, not because anyone handed off the 'dirty deed.'


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jun 10, 2012, 9:35 AM
Post #88 of 97 (728 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

My apologies, sir. It was not addressed to any one person, but the thread participants in general for open discourse about the OP's first post.
I just happened to hit the reply to you and have changed the "Re: Everyone."
Again, my apologies for seemingly singling you out.

keith


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Jun 10, 2012, 9:37 AM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 10, 2012, 9:39 AM
Post #89 of 97 (720 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pay as you go. When you consider the cost of AFF and the first rig running on the higher end of the 5-10k range, $200 is worth the open choices.
I couldn't agree with you more. Too many students make just a few (or just one or two) jumps and decide it's not for them. That's totally cool. I thank them for giving our sport a try, but they should be free to leave, or go to another DZ, without a financial penalty.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 10, 2012, 9:42 AM
Post #90 of 97 (717 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I tell the white jumpers that I always have to worry about hitting the tail of the plane on exit and they don't because white people can't jump Tongue

I also tell them that once black people figure out skydiving we are going to take over just like basketball...

Also I'm trying to set the world black head down record, I need just 1 more guy to do it.
LaughLaugh I've got a couple of friends that could help you out with that record. Smile

I've found that skydivers are only prejudiced against whuffos. Tongue


crunchycracker

Jun 10, 2012, 9:44 AM
Post #91 of 97 (714 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

Does anyone know if the TI instructor on the famous elderly lady tandem jump lost his license (not just his tandem ratung)? Would the bowling speech be appropriate for him? Heard he had over 9,000 jumps but does that really matter?


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 10, 2012, 12:09 PM
Post #92 of 97 (698 views)
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Re: [crunchycracker] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone makes mistakes. Some people make big ones, others make littler ones. If you make lots of mistakes, your chances of making a big one go up, but even if you don't make that many, you can make a real honker of a mistake.

I don't know his record; people who do know him say that he was a good TM by and large. He was working for a program that doesn't always follow the "pointless, invisible" steps that very cautious by-the-book programs follow.

Why am I saying this? Because focusing on him as the sole source of the problem is wrong. Systems contribute to human fallibility.

Sometimes it really is just the one person; in this case, even if it was, he had a shitload where it didn't work out this way, so obviously he wasn't a total loser who should never have had a license.

Best is to try to learn from this mistake, and make tandems better. Saying "he fucked up, I'm fine" doesn't do htat. Not that you said "I'm fine," just that there have been a whole lot of "he fucked up" posts where the focus really was on the individual, and not how the situation got there.

Wendy P.


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 10, 2012, 3:03 PM
Post #93 of 97 (679 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
because white people can't jump Tongue

I also tell them that once black people figure out skydiving we are going to take over just like basketball...

Also I'm trying to set the world black head down record, I need just 1 more guy to do it.

FUNNY AS HELL!!! Actually laughed out loud so the LOL response is a true one


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 12, 2012, 11:20 AM
Post #94 of 97 (581 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>but how many times is the bowling speech given because it's more cost effective
>regarding the DZ's resources?

How is it cost effective? An AFF student stuck on level 4 is sort of a cash cow. One JM, two slots, hundreds of dollars a day guaranteed for the DZO.

Actually the DZ can lose money if the student buys one of the packages that is all 25 Jumps for an A then fails repeatedly. Instead of doing cheap solo jumps and coach jumps, they are paying those cheaper rates for more expensive AFF jumps. Its a situation where no one wins, the DZ is stuck honoring prices when a student is progressing and putting money into the student and the student is unhappy they are not progressing. Its a rare situation, but it does happen.

If those were the terms, yes, that would be true. But is it?

My AFF package, and many like it, got me 1 jump at each of 7 AFF levels, plus one repeat (or free jump tickets when cleared for solo). I thought I was committing to 8 AFF jumps, which would tell me if this was something I could do and wanted to do. But really is one jump at L4 (or one + the repeat + $199), followed by one at L5, one at L6....

It is a true cash cow - there is the carrot of the prepaid levels outstanding.


gregpso  (Student)

Jun 12, 2012, 11:59 AM
Post #95 of 97 (554 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So Greg, where ya jumping now?

Nowhere at present (Glen waverley Bowling club) Bridgy said welcomed back anytime. Nagambie will not even reply to my emails (I cannot imagine why LOL) I have tried to extend olive branch but they are not taking it.

You reap what you sow in this world (lesson learned !!)

I got the bowling speeech via email said " based on posts on SS and here you are only welcome for tandems !! That hurt as the 3 AFFs I did there went without a hitch... as well as the 19 tandems.

I still have not gotten over the hurt if the truth be known. Like I said MY FAULT ENTIRELY


guineapiggie101

Jun 13, 2012, 2:38 PM
Post #96 of 97 (419 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

I do understand why people are given the bowling speech. It is for their own good and such. Sometimes, those who are given the bowling speech, end up going elsewhere and completing their license there. Others, go and find new sports and hobbies to get involved with.

What about those who have been given the bowling speech, but cannot find another DZ that will work with them (due to physical limitations)? How does one deal with that, especially if they REALLY want to solo jump again, and would do anything to be given another chance.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 13, 2012, 2:53 PM
Post #97 of 97 (414 views)
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Re: [guineapiggie101] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

>What about those who have been given the bowling speech, but cannot find another
>DZ that will work with them (due to physical limitations)? How does one deal with that,
>especially if they REALLY want to solo jump again, and would do anything to be given
>another chance.

Sometimes it's worthwhile to find another DZ with different instructors, different aircraft, a different landing area - basically to try to find a DZ where the combination of factors that caused a problem at the first one is different/better/less intimidating.

Other times it's a better idea to back off and try something else - wind tunnel training, paraglider flying - to tackle the problems from another angle. Then with the additional background come back to the sport and give it another try.

And some times, after you give it a few good tries, it's time to find something else you enjoy doing, and concentrate on that.


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