Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Bowling DZOs/managers please read

 


JoeBobJumper

May 30, 2012, 4:13 AM
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Bowling DZOs/managers please read Can't Post

I arrived at the DZ before they were open, ready for my C1 AFF jump. It had been an early start for me and a 4 hour drive, but I always like to be early. The instructors showed up and I started to study the dive plan. Shortly, the head instructor (whom I had never met) asked me to take a walk with him. We talked about my previous jump and then what he said to me left me stunned. “You need to be looking for another sport”, was what he said. What did he say? Is this a joke? I am looking him dead in the eye trying to figure out what to say, or what to do. Hmm, he is serious. My response was, “I don’t want to look for another sport, I want to skydive”.

At first I could not tell if he was making a suggestion or telling me I could not jump there. But over the next 30 minutes or so, I was introduced to the operations manager and one of the owners. It became clear I was “out”. I asked for one more jump, but to no avail.

The point of this post is not to say I was right, someone else was wrong. The point of the post is to create some benefit for skydiving and maybe help some future jumper(s). If a person is determined to be a jumper, they will continue somewhere else. They will blame the DZ that would not work with them and always have something bad to say about that DZ. Or they may just need some extra help but instead of getting the help they need, they quit and never come back. If that happens, we just lost a jumper.

Since that day, I have jumped at 3 other DZs as a student. In more than 20 jumps at these others DZs, there was no problem at all. What happened at the first DZ was a mistake. It was a mistake that could have been avoided. I have spent about $6000 on jumps and equipment in the past 6 months. The first DZ could have had part of that money and could have a better reputation IF they had a plan to allow someone an appeal process.

I am sure there are people that really don’t need to be skydiving. I have spoken with a lot of jumpers that say they had a rough start. Do you know for sure that you can tell one from the other? I worry about the next guy like me that comes along at a similar DZ. The DZ thought they were doing the right thing. But I think they needed to do more than just say, “Bye”.

I would encourage DZOs to put some policy or program in place to allow some sort of appeal. Share your policy/process with students that you think should not be jumping. Find a way to spend time with them and see what they really want, why, and see if you can help them. Maybe they will agree they don’t need to jump and leave thinking you did them a favor. Or, maybe they will get the help they need and be part of the community. I know a lot of DZs do go out of their way to help troubled students. But even when it looks hopeless, until the student is ready to give it up, please don’t cut them off. Maybe they can’t jump right now, but engage them somehow until the matter is settled in an acceptable way for the student. If they really should not be jumping, educate them as to why so they stop of their own free will.

On the waiver of one of the DZs where I have jumped there is a very simple question. It was something like, “Why is it that you think you want to jump from an airplane?” When I saw that a big smile came on my face as I wrote, “A lifelong dream”. Somehow I knew this DZO was my kind of guy.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 30, 2012, 4:28 AM
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Quote:
I would encourage DZOs to put some policy or program in place to allow some sort of appeal

There was an appeal, it just didn't involve you. Before a student is given the 'bowling speech', their performance is discussed among the staff, and that's the appeal. It's not one instructor who jumps with you and then unilaterally decides that you're out, it's a group desicion made by the staff as a whole. When nobody steps forward and says they're willing to jump with you, you're done at that DZ.

Nobody wants to boot anyone from the sport or DZ, but when you reach a point that none of the staff are comfortable jumping with you, it's time for you to move on. If that means to another sport, or another DZ, that's the best thing for you. The last thing you want to do is force an instructor to jump with you when they don't think it's going to end well, that's not a good position for you or the instructor to be in.

It's great that things worked out for you, and you found a DZ where you could be successful in your training. Maybe you found better instructors, or maybe you were really ready to 'turn the corner' just before the other DZ gave you the boot, but if it didn't look 'good' to the staff of that first DZ, not letting you jump there was the right move.


obelixtim  (D 84)

May 30, 2012, 5:05 AM
Post #3 of 97 (3907 views)
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Re: [JoeBobJumper] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

 Interesting post. I'm assuming this was somewhere in the US.

If it was the UK it would not be surprising to me, as they are not very good at what they do....they always find reasons why something can't be done rather than why it can....

Did they outline any reason why they thought you were no good?. Did they have any video of your jumps?. How many jumps had you already done with them, and had they given you any indication previously that your performance was below par?.

Or did you steal one of the girls the rest of them fancied?.

Without a bit more detail its hard to know how to respond, although if you have continued elsewhere without problems, it indicates that perhaps the problem was not yours.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

May 30, 2012, 5:45 AM
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In reply to:
Without a bit more detail its hard to know how to respond, although if you have continued elsewhere without problems, it indicates that perhaps the problem was not yours.

Whichever DZ gave you the bowling speach has the highest degree of respect from me. They put your safety in front of their desire to make money.

Just because you were successful at a different DZ certainly does not mean you weren't part of the problem. You were given a pretty serious 'time-out'. It is possible you approached the training at the second DZ with a more attentive attitude.

Based on what they saw, you had the potential to seriously injure or kill yourself or others.

It sounds like everything worked out for you. Congratulations on sticking with it and making whatever adjustments were necessary to be in this sport safely.


fcajump  (D 15598)

May 30, 2012, 5:52 AM
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These are ONLY my speculation -

From the DZ point of view - they saw a student that they felt was not able, under their instruction, to progress safely. They did not feel that either you (or their instructors) would be able to maintain the level of safety they need. And, when it comes down to it, a fatality (expecially of a student) is much more damaging than turning away someone who just doesn't have the right stuff.

From YOUR point of view - they were not able to provide you the specific instruction, techniques, methods, etc... that enabled you to progress safely. Admittedly this level of safety is based on _their_ judgement. But their suggestion, combined with your determination, lead you to instructors with different skills, techniques, abilities and judgement.

Assuming that you are now actually progressing safely and learning (rather than being alowed to continue unsafely) the first DZ may have done you two favors:

1 - removed you from a learning environment in which you were not progressing to be a competent/safe jumper... where you were (in their judgement) endangering both yourself, their instructors and their reputation.

2 - provided you with motivation to find instructors and environments in which you can progress safely.

Even great mentors and great students must be compatible to be effective.

Just a thought.
JW


hcsvader  (E 2952)

May 30, 2012, 6:14 AM
Post #6 of 97 (3834 views)
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So Greg, where ya jumping now?


obelixtim  (D 84)

May 30, 2012, 6:20 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Without a bit more detail its hard to know how to respond, although if you have continued elsewhere without problems, it indicates that perhaps the problem was not yours.

Whichever DZ gave you the bowling speach has the highest degree of respect from me. They put your safety in front of their desire to make money.

Just because you were successful at a different DZ certainly does not mean you weren't part of the problem. You were given a pretty serious 'time-out'. It is possible you approached the training at the second DZ with a more attentive attitude.

Based on what they saw, you had the potential to seriously injure or kill yourself or others.

It sounds like everything worked out for you. Congratulations on sticking with it and making whatever adjustments were necessary to be in this sport safely.

Maybe you are correct, but I have personally witnessed DZ's where their own incompetance led to them rejecting people who were perfectly capable of making a safe skydive.

Of course, in their own arrogant eyes they were faultless.

Seen from the viewpoint of someone who has a lot of experience in training both students and Instructors, "incompetant" is perhaps too kind a term to use.

I have also seen students rejected from a DZ for no good reason, only to find they were fine. Some of them turned into world class skydivers and instructors.

Don't believe the hype that everyone who has a rating is an expert in the field of instruction....because that is far from the case.

In this instance there is really too little information to make an accurate judgement whether the student was the one at fault.

I would like to see the OP answer my questions about his jumps up to the point he was rejected, and what steps had been taken (if any) in his previous training to correct any faults. It sounds like the bowling speech came as a complete surprise to him, and if that was in fact the case, it sounds to me that the DZ was less than perfect.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on May 30, 2012, 6:30 AM)


beowulf  (C License)

May 30, 2012, 6:35 AM
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Quote:
Maybe you are correct, but I have personally witnessed DZ's where their own incompetance led to them rejecting people who were perfectly capable of making a safe skydive.

If the DZ staff were that incompetent then it's better for the student that they rejected him and the student find a different dropzone.


obelixtim  (D 84)

May 30, 2012, 6:46 AM
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Quote:
If the DZ staff were that incompetent then it's better for the student that they rejected him and the student find a different dropzone.

I agree....


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 30, 2012, 6:55 AM
Post #10 of 97 (3783 views)
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If it was an instructor, ops mgr and a DZO with the same opinion, it does look like they had some strong opinions.

Threads here on dz about students with problems do suggest cutting a student some slack and giving it time, before any bowling speech, if it is mainly a performance issue. And switch instructors if there's a personality conflict. A DZ shouldn't string a student along and just take their money, but if the student is willing to keep working on things and are still safe, there's no arbitrary limit on how many jumps it should take to get AFF or a license done.

Wonder what got the DZ so bothered. Presumably it didn't take 20 jumps to get to C1. Did you blow a couple AAD cutters, do something they saw as grossly unsafe, have an attitude they didn't like, have no clue during the debrief what was happening in the air??

Unless there was one stunningly dangerous or incompetent act, one would expect a "think about it carefully and shape up" speech (& discussion!) before ever escalating to the bowling speech.

In any case it sounds like things are going smoother elsewhere.


(This post was edited by pchapman on May 30, 2012, 6:59 AM)


5.samadhi

May 30, 2012, 7:23 AM
Post #11 of 97 (3743 views)
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you're not telling the whole story. Something in your behavior indicated to them that you were a serious risk. That you went to another DZ and havent burned in (yet or ever) doesnt change the fact that they could have been right in their assessment that you were a risk to them that outweighed the benefit of you being on their DZ.

Let's hear your criticism you got on your previous jumps and how you responded/changed your behavior.

I wouldn't worry so much about other DZOs/DZs or other instructors at different dropzones or future jumpers...I would think about yourself...you're the one plummeting to the ground at 120mph Laugh


Ron

May 30, 2012, 8:33 AM
Post #12 of 97 (3668 views)
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Quote:
The point of this post is not to say I was right, someone else was wrong. The point of the post is to create some benefit for skydiving and maybe help some future jumper(s).

If they did think you were safe, then they have a duty to not let you continue. They have my respect for making that call.... It is not an easy call to make and none of us want to turn a person away. It is a step never taken easily.

Quote:
They will blame the DZ that would not work with them and always have something bad to say about that DZ.

Blaming others is a sure sign of their failure. Who do you think I am going to put my faith in... A disgruntled student or an entire DZ?

Quote:
What happened at the first DZ was a mistake


Without you giving details.... No one can properly respond to your claims.

Quote:
The first DZ could have had part of that money and could have a better reputation IF they had a plan to allow someone an appeal process.

1. That DZ HAS a good reputation (I don't know the DZ) since they took the hard path and grounded you over the easy path and letting you ay them to continue to fail.

2. There IS an appeal process. The head instructor, manager and owner all were involved in it.

Quote:
Do you know for sure that you can tell one from the other?

Yes, I am better qualified than the student to tell if they are able to continue. The number one reason is I have no ego involved in the decision.

Quote:
The DZ thought they were doing the right thing. But I think they needed to do more than just say, “Bye”.

What makes your opinion more valid than the head instructor, DZM and DZO????

Quote:
I would encourage DZOs to put some policy or program in place to allow some sort of appeal.


There is a process. At the DZ in question, you failed that process. At the other three you claim to have jumped at you seem to not have failed.

Quote:
until the student is ready to give it up, please don’t cut them off.

Fuck that. When it has become clear that a person is a danger to themselves or others I am not going to let them continue to be a danger till they come to that conclusion for themselves.

Quote:
educate them as to why so they stop of their own free will.

From your own statement... This DZ tried to explain it to you, "Shortly, the head instructor (whom I had never met) asked me to take a walk with him. We talked about my previous jump and then what he said to me left me stunned. “You need to be looking for another sport”
At first I could not tell if he was making a suggestion or telling me I could not jump there. But over the next 30 minutes or so, I was introduced to the operations manager and one of the owners. It became clear I was “out”. I asked for one more jump, but to no avail. "

And it seems you didn't want to listen. "What did he say? Is this a joke? I am looking him dead in the eye trying to figure out what to say, or what to do. Hmm, he is serious. My response was, “I don’t want to look for another sport, I want to skydive”.

Again without specifics it is impossible to tell if you were treated badly at the first DZ. But when given the blind choice of listening to a disgruntled student or the head instructor, GM, and DZO.... I will side with them. So unless you can provide details..... I think they did the right thing.

I am glad you learned to jump... I have to wonder what if anything you told the other three DZ's and why there were three other DZ's.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

May 30, 2012, 9:26 AM
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I've said in many other threads... "Skydiving is an extreme sport and is not for everyone"! What I find alarming here is that you seem to have (at least from what I've read) danced around the specifics of your previous jump. Provide me with more details if you want to change my opinion, but for now I'd have to side with the DZ.

As for an appeals process... If the DZO said you're not jumping there any more, there is no appeal necessary! The DZO has the last say!!! Period! And, most experienced jumpers are going to applaud the DZO for taking the path less traveled. All this being said, I’m glad you found a path to success.

I’d really like to hear the other side of this story?
Smile


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 30, 2012, 9:35 AM
Post #14 of 97 (3604 views)
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In reply to:
Maybe you are correct, but I have personally witnessed DZ's where their own incompetance led to them rejecting people who were perfectly capable of making a safe skydive.

Of course, in their own arrogant eyes they were faultless.
In reply to:
All too true. You'd never get them to admit it but there it is.


In reply to:
I have also seen students rejected from a DZ for no good reason, only to find they were fine. Some of them turned into world class skydivers and instructors.
I always point these people to Wendy Faulkner's student logbook. Smile

In reply to:
Don't believe the hype that everyone who has a rating is an expert in the field of instruction....because that is far from the case.
Aw shit...don't get me started....
Mad


In reply to:
...it sounds to me that the DZ was less than perfect.
Well to be fair. Whatever the reason, the bottom line is the DZO and how he wants to run his business. Right, wrong or indifferent, it's his business to run as he sees fit.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 30, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #15 of 97 (3596 views)
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Re: [JoeBobJumper] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

JoeBob...scan your logbook and post the jpegs. Show the validity of your position.


janz

May 30, 2012, 9:55 AM
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This is a tough one. There are tandem factories who claim they will progress you to aff but really don't want to be bothered with true student instruction. Did you meet any non tandem students on this dz? I don't believe you stated if your first jump was a tandem. If it was and you met no other non tandem students it most likely was a tandem factory and they don't want to do anything else.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

May 30, 2012, 1:01 PM
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In reply to:
This is a tough one. There are tandem factories who claim they will progress you to aff but really don't want to be bothered with true student instruction. Did you meet any non tandem students on this dz? I don't believe you stated if your first jump was a tandem. If it was and you met no other non tandem students it most likely was a tandem factory and they don't want to do anything else.

I don't know about that. Most of those (tandem factory) types will tell you to your face and reccommend another DZ. This DZO Sent him packing with the Bowling Speech. Again, I'd like to hear the other side of this story. As stated above, show us your log book?


bucketlistpilot  (C 1204)

May 30, 2012, 1:34 PM
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In reply to:
So Greg, where ya jumping now?

Fuck! Coffee spat all over keyboard Laugh


kelpdiver  (B 7)

May 30, 2012, 2:14 PM
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In reply to:
I arrived at the DZ before they were open, ready for my C1 AFF jump. It had been an early start for me and a 4 hour drive, but I always like to be early. The instructors showed up and I started to study the dive plan. Shortly, the head instructor (whom I had never met) asked me to take a walk with him. We talked about my previous jump and then what he said to me left me stunned. “You need to be looking for another sport”, was what he said.

Did you schedule this C1 jump, or just arrive at the DZ? If they knew you were coming, they could have, should have done this over the phone. If they didn't, perhaps they presumed from the last jump that you would self select yourself out and save everyone the unpleasant experience of 'the talk.' No one at the DZ wants to boot a newcomer.

Hopefully the prior jump had a proper debrief...busy DZs like the one I did much of my AFF at had a tendency to schedule instructors for back to backs and occasionally B2B2Bs and debriefs suffered as a result. If it went badly enough to lead to a TUB speech, there should have been something said that day.

In reply to:
Since that day, I have jumped at 3 other DZs as a student. In more than 20 jumps at these others DZs, there was no problem at all.

hopefully one other DZ for AFF, and then the other two after you were cleared for self supervised jumps? Did the wind tunnel come into use as well? I'm one of many that the tunnel was a good fix for - allowed 'flying time' to first fix body positioning issues and then let me get back to the other essential skills in the air.


JoeBobJumper

May 30, 2012, 3:33 PM
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After I was sent away, I licked my wounds and largely got over it. But as I feel more a part of the skydiving community it has really bothered me to wonder how many potential licensed jumpers never continue because of some similar situation. New blood licensed jumpers are very important to small DZs.

As I planned to post this I also planned to leave out the details that everyone would like to see. The reason is that some DZO might look at that specific situation and know, “We would never do that” and not think about other similar situations that might happen. My real request in the post is for the operators to look for creative ways to stop from making mistakes in who they send away.

In my case the DZ management acted in good faith but with bad information and without a reasonable plan/process. A rash decision was allowed to dominate the event. If the DZOs and managers reading this think they have a good policy/process in place, fine. If they wonder if similar mistakes can happen at their DZ and want to look at improving their process, that is wonderful.

It took me a long time to decide to post what I did. I knew people would try to turn this into who was right and who was wrong. I am committed to not go there. Sorry for being unresponsive in that area.

In a way the first DZ did do me a favor. They forced me to go somewhere else, and after that, going to a third (weather’s bad at home) and a fourth DZ (tunnel/training trip) was not something I was timid about. In all cases I disclosed from the beginning what I had problems with before.


ManagingPrime

May 30, 2012, 4:40 PM
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In reply to:
As I planned to post this I also planned to leave out the details that everyone would like to see. The reason is that some DZO might look at that specific situation and know, “We would never do that” and not think about other similar situations that might happen. My real request in the post is for the operators to look for creative ways to stop from making mistakes in who they send away.

As noted by a number of posters, their already are procedures in place to make sure that mistakes are not made in sending people away. However. sometimes mistakes are made.

You use your example as a case where a mistake was made. How can anyone here evaluate if a mistake was indeed made and that procedures should be re-evaluated without case specifics?

You could just be a nut job that's lucky to have not killed yourself or someone else and your are looking to grind your axe on dz.com. I'm personally way more concerned about the nut jobs that are bound to kill themselves or someone else who do not get the bowling speech.

SIUBC


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 30, 2012, 6:33 PM
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In reply to:
How can anyone here evaluate if a mistake was indeed made and that procedures should be re-evaluated without case specifics?

I'm going to back off on my request to see the logbook. I now better understand what the object of the OP is.

Simply this: A suggestion for DZO and others to re-evaluate whether or not their current procedures and processes for the 'bowling speech' are really realistic and/or can be improved.

Not a bad request at all. We could ALL be striving for continuous improvement. Mistakes are made obviously and there is always room for improvement....unless, of course, you simply think you are perfect.


Andy9o8  (D License)

May 30, 2012, 6:47 PM
Post #23 of 97 (3163 views)
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In reply to:
In my case the DZ management acted in good faith but with bad information and without a reasonable plan/process. A rash decision was allowed to dominate the event.

You expect us to just accept that without specific details? Forget it.

When I was a new student, my first DZO was a real dick, to the point where I switched over to the other local DZs (so I'm not unsympathetic); but if someone asked me for details, I could give them so they could decide for themselves.

Either give us some specifics or stop wasting our time.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

May 30, 2012, 6:48 PM
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In reply to:
New blood licensed jumpers are very important to small DZs.

aye, but accidents are equally devastating to small DZs. In a coin flip situation, they'll certainly take the conservative approach.

A key lesson for the DZs to consider is the timing of that message. I suspect one of the reasons you took it badly (not like one would ever take it well) is that you spent the morning driving out there and getting jacked up in anticipation, only to fall flat. I was pretty angry when a wind hold cancelled my AFF1 jump. They didn't tell us the winds would build...certainly wouldn't want to rush us, but while we sat around trying to suck up the courage, the window closed. I was ticked off for days.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 30, 2012, 7:02 PM
Post #25 of 97 (3139 views)
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Either give us some specifics or stop wasting our time.
IF 'JoeBob' is who I think it is...hats off for stickin' with it when other would have thrown in the towel. Cool

Perseverance often times trumps 'natural' talent! Wink


rrmtopo  (C License)

May 30, 2012, 8:01 PM
Post #26 of 97 (1511 views)
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I say man up and post your jump videos....


sundevil777  (D License)

May 30, 2012, 8:16 PM
Post #27 of 97 (1498 views)
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In reply to:
Either give us some specifics or stop wasting our time.

IF 'JoeBob' is who I think it is...hats off for stickin' with it when other would have thrown in the towel. Cool

Perseverance often times trumps 'natural' talent! Wink
First time I went to Marana in the mid 80s, I met an old fixture (very experienced) there that told the story of his first 5 or 6 jumps and that he used his reserve on each of them. Of course it seemed impossible to have so many malfunctions in a row. After a short pause to allow us to wonder, he told us how he would count to 5 in about 1 second (static line procedures) and then pull his reserve without hesitation. Laugh


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on May 30, 2012, 8:18 PM)


janz

May 30, 2012, 8:53 PM
Post #28 of 97 (1479 views)
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In reply to:
I say man up and post your jump videos....
I guess if you called it post yours too. I have seen horrible first jump videos heads down and fetal all the way to pull time. Spinning all the way. Instructors did not give up and studemt got A license in about a month. I'm with the poster on this one. If his ability was less than desirable but had the motivation and the instructors told him to find something else he had horrible instructors.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 30, 2012, 8:55 PM
Post #29 of 97 (1479 views)
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In reply to:
I say man up and post your jump videos....


MINE?? Shocked

There wasn't video when I started...Sly


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 30, 2012, 9:06 PM
Post #30 of 97 (1470 views)
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In reply to:
There wasn't video when I started...Sly

Yeah, but the relative wind would dry the clay tablet sketches pretty quick, as long as they didn't get dropped on opening shock.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 30, 2012, 10:21 PM
Post #31 of 97 (1446 views)
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In reply to:
You expect us to just accept that without specific details? Forget it.

Again...he wasn't asking for your judgement. He owes you no details.

Kudos to him for sticking to it....even though he had to go elsewhere.

You want details? Read Wendy's logbook and judge whether or not she should have gotten 'the speech'.


ixlr82  (C 33491)

May 30, 2012, 10:58 PM
Post #32 of 97 (1428 views)
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Wendy has always been open and honest about her early jump history. People are attracted to those traits. We connect with her story. This jumper is, so far, just giving us their opinion (though seemingly with good intention). Perhaps one of her instructors could give the other side, although I realize not likely to happen.


danornan  (D 11308)

May 31, 2012, 5:12 AM
Post #33 of 97 (1378 views)
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An interesting thread and it brings up an important point.

The first being that it is so much better to error on the side of caution then to, "what the hell," maybe he'll do OK next time! Right or wrong, the DZ did you a favor. Might have even saved your life. You should thank them as opposed to trying to change their policy. People die in this sport and sometimes on their first jump.

It just wasn't working at the first DZ, but YOU solved the problem. Good for you! and welcome to skydiving ....


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 31, 2012, 7:40 AM
Post #34 of 97 (1309 views)
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In reply to:
Wendy has always been open and honest about her early jump history.
Thanks be to God and kiss the sky for that. I point to her logbook quite often for young jumpers who get discouraged.

In reply to:
This jumper is, so far, just giving us their opinion (though seemingly with good intention).
And that was his intention and suggestion for procedure review. Why in the world would you need HIS jump history to determine if a general review of DZ procedures across the board for the bowling speech is warranted or not?

Are you going to say a review is NOT relevant at other DZs just because you don't agree with his motivation for asking?

It's a good suggestion.
And it applies to both sides of the issue...too strict on giving it? or too loose on giving it? Review your procedures and parameters for giving it or not. Simple as that.

If you still want to focus on his one experience then consider: It was mentioned that to err on the side of caution is a good thing....I agree with that wholeheartedly. His particular experience may have been just that. Does that negate the suggestion for all DZOs to review their procedures and processes? I think not. YMMV.

Besides all that, his call went out to DZOs and Instructors and others who make those decisions....not us fun-jumpers.


Ron

May 31, 2012, 11:43 AM
Post #35 of 97 (1240 views)
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You're assuming that there is not a process.
Do you know a single DZ where a student is given 'the talk' without any discussion between the instructor and the head instructor or the GM DZO?

I don't.

Just because he had not SEEN the discussion, does not mean it didn't happen.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

May 31, 2012, 12:12 PM
Post #36 of 97 (1220 views)
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In reply to:
You're assuming that there is not a process.
Do you know a single DZ where a student is given 'the talk' without any discussion between the instructor and the head instructor or the GM DZO?

I don't.

Just because he had not SEEN the discussion, does not mean it didn't happen.

And based on the facts that we know, it seems pretty clear that a process was followed. If there hadn't been a process, it's likely the last instructor to jump with him would have said "You're done" the previous time he was at the DZ.

Instead, they waited till his next visit, and no fewer than three people talked to him about the decision and gave the same answer. That doesn't sound at all like a rash decision on the part of one frustrated instructor, but instead a decision that the instructional/management staff came to as a group.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 31, 2012, 12:51 PM
Post #37 of 97 (1191 views)
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Quote:
Just because he had not SEEN the discussion, does not mean it didn't happen

Exactly. If you read the OP, he's lobbying for an 'appeal' process, and what that really means is that he wants his opinion to matter, and in this case it doesn't (and cannot).

The simple fact that the staff is considering giving a student 'the talk' means that the student is not performing up to snuff, and as such, certainly is not qualifed to comment on his own skills or performance. Of course the student believes they can make a safe skydive, or they wouldn't be at the DZ hoping to make another jump. Asking them their opinion will solict nothing more than what you would expect, they want to continue jumping.

It's funny how the OP was willing to trust the judgment of these instructors to guide him through his first 'x' number of jumps, but once they told him something he didn't want to hear, he wants an 'appeal'.

True story - student fails several levels of AFF, something on the order of 10 to 12 horrbile jumps, at which point the student is given the bowling speech and refused any further jumps.

During the winter layoff, the student goes to Skydive Arizona signs up for their FJC without mention of any of his previous experience. He makes it through the program at SDA, earns an A license and makes another 20-some jumps.

Spring arrives, and he returns to Ohio, license in hand and shows up to the DZ ready to jump. Less then 10 jumps later, he goes low on a 4-way, and pulls at break-off altitude without tracking.

The deploying canopy and jumper struck a jumper in freefall, breaking that jumpers arm. The deploying canopy was damaged and the jumper under it was knocked out, left to spiral in under the damamged main. The end result was permanent brain damage, and he was left with the mental capacity of a 5 year old, which I'm sure was just great for his wife and kids.

You want an appeal? How about an appeal to common sense, and when a roon full of expert skydivers tell you to take up bowling, they might just be on to something.


5.samadhi

May 31, 2012, 2:48 PM
Post #38 of 97 (1121 views)
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^ unleash the beast!!!!! feel the power!!!!!!


Laugh


airtwardo  (D License)

May 31, 2012, 3:56 PM
Post #39 of 97 (1089 views)
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You want an appeal? How about an appeal to common sense, and when a roon full of expert skydivers tell you to take up bowling, they might just be on to something.


In reply to:

Nope...don't buy it - doesn't account for the human factor of desire.

There are as many examples or more of people that shouldn't have made it but did...their desire to skydive won, they did what they had to.

Some take a different approach, SL instead of AFF, some spend time in the tunnel before trying again and then succeed.

One guy I taught in the 70's had 'problems', I'd always figured the teacher failed to teach so we kept working...he not only 'got it' - he was a vidiot for airspeed and has 3x's the jumps I do. Would have made a lousy bowler. Sly

I agree the sport isn't for everybody...but how many times is the bowling speech given because it's more cost effective regarding the DZ's resources?

I'm not necessarily saying that's wrong either, just that it's not 'always' right.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 31, 2012, 4:02 PM
Post #40 of 97 (1081 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

>but how many times is the bowling speech given because it's more cost effective
>regarding the DZ's resources?

How is it cost effective? An AFF student stuck on level 4 is sort of a cash cow. One JM, two slots, hundreds of dollars a day guaranteed for the DZO.


jinlee  (D License)

May 31, 2012, 4:18 PM
Post #41 of 97 (1075 views)
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Always looking for the positive in any sitituation.

Count your blessing you were given the bowling speech by the staff and your DZ friends didn't feel you were "awesome" "cool" and a future "swoop god" otherwise you might be jumping a Katana or Velo by now. Tongue Unsure Pirate

Seemingly there seems to be a lot of that happening, although I am unaware as to how often the bowling speech is given.... rather rarely I think.


(This post was edited by jinlee on May 31, 2012, 4:18 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

May 31, 2012, 4:31 PM
Post #42 of 97 (1068 views)
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In reply to:
>but how many times is the bowling speech given because it's more cost effective
>regarding the DZ's resources?

How is it cost effective? An AFF student stuck on level 4 is sort of a cash cow. One JM, two slots, hundreds of dollars a day guaranteed for the DZO.

Honestly I don't know...I'd agree with you it would be better to 'string' them along as far as po$$ible.

However at a Cessna DZ with limited slots and I's they may have another opinion.

Like I said above, if the student failed to learn the teacher failed to teach...in some/many circumstances anyway.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 31, 2012, 7:18 PM
Post #43 of 97 (1000 views)
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Quote:
...but how many times is the bowling speech given because it's more cost effective regarding the DZ's resources?

I'd say it's pretty rare. Student jumps all pay the same, pass or fail.

It seems to me that skydiving instructors are a fairly competitive bunch, and generally don't like to fail. If one guy can't seem to 'crack' an egg, there are two or three others willing to give it a shot.

By the time a guy gets the bowling speech, there has to be something behind it. Case in point, whatever it was that got the OP the speech is bad enough that he's not willing to share it with the rest of us.

I'm fairly certain that the only thing the staff at any DZ dislikes more than having to turn a willing student away is seeing a student injured or killed.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 31, 2012, 9:03 PM
Post #44 of 97 (969 views)
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Re: [Ron] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're assuming that there is not a process.
No Ron. How can you possibly review processes and procedures if none exist?

In reply to:
Do you know a single DZ where a student is given 'the talk' without any discussion between the instructor and the head instructor or the GM DZO?
Nope.

In reply to:
Just because he had not SEEN the discussion, does not mean it didn't happen.
Nobody claimed that. I have no idea where you got that idea.

You are waaay off target tonight.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 31, 2012, 9:24 PM
Post #45 of 97 (962 views)
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In reply to:
If you read the OP, he's lobbying for an 'appeal' process, and what that really means is that he wants his opinion to matter, and in this case it doesn't (and cannot).
Wanting to talk it over and appeal the decision is a bad thing? I think not. It's a quite natural response in many cases like this and many not like this. What? Are you tying to tell him to STFU or something?

Tell me you guys have never wanted to discuss a decision that was made that was detrimental to you.
I'll call BS right up front.

In reply to:
It's funny how the OP was willing to trust the judgment of these instructors to guide him through his first 'x' number of jumps, but once they told him something he didn't want to hear, he wants an 'appeal'.
What's funny is that you guys would think that is not normal.

What's funny is that you guys seem to think getting a second opinion is a bad thing.

What's funny is that you guys seem to think that getting the speech from on person should disqualify anyone from any further pursuit.

By all rights, the DZO made the call that was right for his business, whatever his reasoning. It in no way applies to every DZO and their business. If that's what you think, then you should start a national register of all those who receive the speech and ban them from any further pursuit of the sport. Right. Lead balloon and all that.

Just what does "appeal" mean to you, anyway?


Yeah, yeah , yeah, your horror story plays well up against Wendy's story. 1 to 1, scores tied.
Well, no it doesn't play well. Any bozo could have done that and other bozos have done that...few of whom ever got the speech.
Crazy

You guys are acting like jerks calling for blood and trying to hang the guy when the guy simply suggested that people take another look at when and how they use the speech.

His mistake was giving you guys any smell of blood at all.

Geez. Must be a full moon tonight.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on May 31, 2012, 9:24 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

May 31, 2012, 9:34 PM
Post #46 of 97 (958 views)
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By the time a guy gets the bowling speech, there has to be something behind it. Case in point, whatever it was that got the OP the speech is bad enough that he's not willing to share it with the rest of us.

In reply to:

Or he doesn't feel it relates to the point of his original post.

I think the 'how' not the 'why' is what he was addressing.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 31, 2012, 9:35 PM
Post #47 of 97 (955 views)
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In reply to:
Case in point, whatever it was that got the OP the speech is bad enough that he's not willing to share it with the rest of us.
So what? You guys are on a feeding frenzy. Fuck that. He gave you too much already.

WHY he got the speech is NOT the issue, never has been. And you guys can't let that go.

I told him to ignore the thread. You guys are so wrapped up in hammering the guy that you failed to see the suggestion he made.

Fortunately for us, he's a good guy. If he wasn't he'd be here telling you blood seekers to kiss butt.


Edited to add after reading Airtwardo's posts:
OK...'Twardo is excepted. At least one of us gets it.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on May 31, 2012, 9:37 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

May 31, 2012, 9:40 PM
Post #48 of 97 (952 views)
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+1 Wink


DaVinciflies

Jun 1, 2012, 1:31 AM
Post #49 of 97 (924 views)
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In reply to:
So what? You guys are on a feeding frenzy. Fuck that. He gave you too much already.

I tend to agree with you. This sort of attack does not do dz.com any favours, but it is all too common.

Now we have a potential new convert to the sport who was told to fuck off by a dropzone, and again on dz.com.

Then we have threads about retention in the sport and berating "tourists" who don't stay the distance (a term, by the way, which I think is designed to confer the message of "you're not worthy of being in my club"). In the words of Pops; "Fuck that".


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jun 1, 2012, 3:21 AM
Post #50 of 97 (899 views)
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 TBF it hasn't all been one way traffic. Without knowing the full story, it is possible the OP was not treated fairly.

Some posts seem to be fairly certain, as if they know something about this case that the rest of us don't. I'm not sure that they do.....

I've seen plenty examples where people are for some reason not welcome on a DZ, and it is not always due to their skydiving ability or lack of.....

I am still interested to know whether he had any indication that there was a problem before he got the speech....


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 1, 2012, 5:19 AM
Post #51 of 97 (1452 views)
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Quote:
Wanting to talk it over and appeal the decision is a bad thing? I think not. It's a quite natural response in many cases like this and many not like this. What? Are you tying to tell him to STFU or something?

Tell me you guys have never wanted to discuss a decision that was made that was detrimental to you.
I'll call BS right up front.

I'm sure it's a natural resonse, and case in point, the OP describes exactly that scenario occurred, as he wrote in the OP-
Quote:
over the next 30 minutes or so, I was introduced to the operations manager and one of the owners. It became clear I was “out”. I asked for one more jump, but to no avail.

Does that not describe a discussion, an appeal for another jump, and the final decision of the DZO/staff? I think it does, but the guy continues with his post, and then suggests the following-
Quote:
I would encourage DZOs to put some policy or program in place to allow some sort of appeal. Share your policy/process with students that you think should not be jumping. Find a way to spend time with them and see what they really want, why, and see if you can help them

As far as I can tell (or nay of us really, because the guy is short on details), he recieved the very treatment he's advocating for, it's just that his 'appeal' ended with the same result, that he was not going to jump at that DZ anymore.

What the fuck more does he want? Should the DZ hire an independent, thrid-party mediator to come in and settle the issue?

You can point the finger at me for being harsh, and likewise I could point it right back at you for being soft. Given the info we have, it appears that he was treated fairly, and given the time and consideration of several senior staff members. His beef seems to be that they stuck to their guns and did give him what he wanted, and in my book that called whinning.

The way I see it, the DZ passed up on an eager, willing student with money to spend. Show me the DZ that would do that without good cause, and then maybe I'll side with the student. Given the lack of eager willing, well-funded students out there, I have to think that the experienced, professional skydivers who made the choice that it wasn't a good idea to continue jumping with this student made a good call, and unless the guy can prove otherwise, I'll stand behind my conclusion.


jclalor  (B 33202)

Jun 1, 2012, 5:49 AM
Post #52 of 97 (1443 views)
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I know of one DZO that will be more than happy to take all your money up front for AFF, then take 3-4 months to " fit you in between tandems". They would have no problem finding a "performance" issue to get you to stop calling.

While the vast majority of DZO's and AFFI's are on the up-and-up, it sure isn't all of them.


Ron

Jun 1, 2012, 5:58 AM
Post #53 of 97 (1436 views)
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Quote:
No Ron. How can you possibly review processes and procedures if none exist?

How about this process:
1. Instructor decides that the student is dangerous.
2. Instructors get together and discuss the situation.
3. Instructor tells student of their decision.
4. Instructor and student talk to Head Instructor
5. Student and Head Instructor talk to DZM and DZO.

Wait.... That is EXACTLY what happened.
#2 Consensus review.
#4 Student pleads his case to supervisor
#5 Student pleads his case to manager and owner.

The student had THREE reviews and TWO appeals.

Again, just because he didn't SEE it does not mean it didn't happen.

You seem to act like if it is not on paper and does not end in a review board with some governmental power like the NLRA and NTSB that it just could not exist.

Quote:
In reply to:

Do you know a single DZ where a student is given 'the talk' without any discussion between the instructor and the head instructor or the GM DZO?
Nope.

Well, there is the first "review" of the appeals process.

Quote:
Nobody claimed that. I have no idea where you got that idea.

You are waaay off target tonight.

No, you are way off base here. You claimed it when you said, "How can you possibly review processes and procedures if none exist? "

He claims there was no review. There WAS a review he just didn't SEE the process. YOU also didn't see that there was a process since apparently there were not forms filled out in triplicate and no one had to wear a robe to judge the case.

Just because he and YOU didn't see there was a process.... Does not equal there was no process.


5.samadhi

Jun 1, 2012, 7:35 AM
Post #54 of 97 (1397 views)
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hey OP, out of curiosity, what is your race?

I've unfortunately seen plenty of cases of racism toward students (and sexism too) Unsure


wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 1, 2012, 9:16 AM
Post #55 of 97 (1341 views)
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Dude, you've been in the sport 2 years. Yeah, there's racism and sexism out there, but if you've seen that much of it, you're looking for it.

I'm a girl; I've been jumping since the 1970's (when there were even fewer girls). I've seen little sexism that couldn't be overcome with a (very) mildly thick skin. And yes, I was an instructor for part of that time, and I was never one of those "my instructor became my boyfriend" types; I was classed as "intimidating" by some guys. Shocked

There were some cases of racism that I saw, but, again, it was more in the need-a-thick-skin variety. I told off the DZO once when he made an untoward comment about a member of the Vietnamese family that my folks sponsored in the 80's. No downstream impact on me.

If I've been in it that long, howsocome I haven't seen as much? The worst prejudice I've ever seen at the DZ is against a guy with an unusually abrasive personality, and few social skills, who also wasn't attractive. Now HE was thick-skinned and persistent Laugh

Wendy P.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 1, 2012, 9:29 AM
Post #56 of 97 (1325 views)
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In reply to:
The way I see it, the DZ passed up on an eager, willing student with money to spend. Show me the DZ that would do that without good cause, and then maybe I'll side with the student.
There's the rub. Nobody is asking for anyone to take sides.

In reply to:
I have to think that the experienced, professional skydivers who made the choice that it wasn't a good idea to continue jumping with this student made a good call,
And that has already been accepted. Again, they made the call that was right for them. No argument there.

In reply to:
and unless the guy can prove otherwise, I'll stand behind my conclusion.
If you are wanting to determine guilt or innocence on the part of the OP and take sides on the question of whether or not the speech was justified, then you can safely assume that according to the viewpoint of the DZO and staff that he would be guilty as charged. So what?

Again, as 'Twardo put is so elegantly, it's not about the 'why', it's about the 'how'.

And yes, I would admit to being a softie in a case like this. Not so much in other cases, but with respect to the bowling speech, yeah.

For me, there are options to pursue before the speech is given...but then I'm not a DZO. And no, I am not saying that the DZ in question did not pursue any other options.


5.samadhi

Jun 1, 2012, 9:31 AM
Post #57 of 97 (1321 views)
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dude, I've worked on different little piece of shit cessna dropzones for 4 years now Wink

I have specifically been told racist things about students in confidence by instructors and DZOs. As if I am racist I dont know what these people are thinking about me if they would talk shit about somebody to me behind their backs because they are black, indian (india indian) or whatever.

Maybe people just take a look at you WMW and realize that you're not going to be amiable toward racist talk? Again, I dont know why somebody would say racist things to me, I'm the furthest thing from racist and I inwardly despise people for letting slip any racism.


wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 1, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #58 of 97 (1316 views)
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Then maybe you should make it clear that you're not amiable toward racist talk. You can still work at a DZ and be who you are. Been there, done that. At both a little Cessna DZ (though only for a season), and at a larger one.

If enough people make it clear without being assholes about it, it becomes less acceptable in general.

Wendy P.


5.samadhi

Jun 1, 2012, 9:41 AM
Post #59 of 97 (1313 views)
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The two dropzones that were the worst offenders involved the DZOs, which is unfortunate because when you are working for a boss it is hard to tell them that they are morally lacking in character unless they happen to be the Dalai Lama Laugh

anyways, thats off topic, but I'd still be curious to see what the OP's race is and whether that was a factor.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 1, 2012, 9:45 AM
Post #60 of 97 (1311 views)
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In reply to:
No, you are way off base here. You claimed it when you said, "How can you possibly review processes and procedures if none exist? "

By YOUR words:
Quote:
You're assuming that there is not a process.
By YOUR assumption, you are saying that I said that there was no process. We've been talking about the process and procedure all along. How can you possibly suggest that anyone assumes there is not a process?
You were off base here. My response was to YOUR wrong assumption. I can only think that you didn't read the entire thread.

Now if you want to extrapolate my response into my making a claim as you mistakenly assumed, then so be it...and you would still be wrong.


Is this one of those He said/She said rabbit holes?
Read the thread to see what was said....without making assumptions.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jun 1, 2012, 9:46 AM)




Ron

Jun 1, 2012, 10:50 AM
Post #62 of 97 (1276 views)
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Quote:
By YOUR assumption, you are saying that I said that there was no process.

No, your WORDS said that. "How can you possibly review processes and procedures if none exist? "

Quote:
How can you possibly suggest that anyone assumes there is not a process?

By reading what you wrote.

Quote:
Read the thread to see what was said....without making assumptions.

I have, and you clearly said, "And that was his intention and suggestion for procedure review" in post #34 of this thread

To which I replied "You're assuming that there is not a process."

To which you quoted and replied in post #44 of this thread,
"How can you possibly review processes and procedures if none exist? "

So YOU are the one off base here. YOU replied to ME about and QUOTED MY comment about there BEING a process while saying there was not one.

So, you either forgot you said it, communicated like crap, or are trying to be difficult for some reason.

Again, the student had THREE reviews and TWO appeals.
Just because he didn't SEE it does not mean it didn't happen.


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Jun 1, 2012, 11:42 AM
Post #63 of 97 (1244 views)
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Re: [BOTH Ron and Pops] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

Pops... Ron....

Have either of you ever seen that line about arguing on the internet....

This is to the point of being silly! Just let it go.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Jun 1, 2012, 12:23 PM
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+1


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 1, 2012, 2:24 PM
Post #65 of 97 (1164 views)
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Keep your head up Joe I am now at 57 Jumps and no I do not have my A license. At around 23 jumps I refused to quit BUT every week was hoping like hell they would tell me your not cut out for this you need to find another sport. STUPID POISED EXITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I actually graduated AFF 4 times I was promoted and demoted 3 times in 3 days!! I started in October so it was not lack of trying or distance between jumps.

I can exit now still can not flare that well and even got in a canopy class at another DZ to improve this did two landing in the peas last weekend and one of those was stand up My First in the peas and yes i bought beer.

I suck and my money is drained. MY DZ didn't give up on me even though I WISH THEY HAD!!!!!!!!

BUT it sure is a hell of a lot of fun MAN i love jumping from that plane without a doubt my favorite part.

And I can not bowl for shit. Throwing heavy balls down slippery alleys is way to dangerous STICK TO SKYDIVING!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 1, 2012, 3:34 PM
Post #66 of 97 (1144 views)
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Re: [Ron] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

Give it up Ron. You misread and you're wrong.

Gotta love I-net arguing...even with the obtuse.

If you have to have the last word, go ahead and get it. As has been pointed out, we are making fools out of ourselves.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jun 1, 2012, 3:37 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 1, 2012, 3:36 PM
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In reply to:
And I can not bowl for shit. Throwing heavy balls down slippery alleys is way to dangerous STICK TO SKYDIVING!

You could always use a girrrrrrls ball.
Oh...wait....

LaughLaughTongue


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 1, 2012, 5:11 PM
Post #68 of 97 (1095 views)
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Hard to hold the arch with the girls ball


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 1, 2012, 11:49 PM
Post #69 of 97 (1055 views)
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In reply to:
Hard to hold the arch with the girls ball
LaughLaughLaugh


Freeflaw  (C License)

Jun 2, 2012, 5:13 PM
Post #70 of 97 (964 views)
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I got the bowling speech for asking how to deal with line overs on reserves from one instructor (too scared to jump). Now I rig for the guy on occasion.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 2, 2012, 7:30 PM
Post #71 of 97 (952 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

>Threads here on dz about students with problems do suggest cutting a student some
>slack and giving it time, before any bowling speech, if it is mainly a performance issue.

Agreed. But there are other cases where the person simply cannot skydive safely. It's all too easy to just tell the guy "well, you failed, here's why - now I'm gonna pass you onto another instructor, and let you be his problem." I admire the instructors who take the sometimes-necessary but never pleasant path of telling someone in no uncertain terms that they should not be skydiving. It's never an easy speech to give, and it's never easy to hear, but it can and does save lives.

>Unless there was one stunningly dangerous or incompetent act, one would expect a
>"think about it carefully and shape up" speech (& discussion!) before ever escalating to
>the bowling speech.

Sometimes you don't want to wait for that stunningly dangerous event. Indeed, it is the ground instructor's job to have those stunning mistakes happen on the ground, not in the air.


(This post was edited by billvon on Jun 3, 2012, 9:11 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jun 2, 2012, 8:29 PM
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In reply to:
you don't want to wait for that stunningly dangerous event. Indeed, it is the ground instructor's job to have those stunning mistakes happen on the ground, not in the air.

Fair enough. That's always been one of the tough parts about instructing, trying to figure out who will actually screw up. Incompetence on the ground is normally a reason not to go up, but if the ground work is competent enough, it can be hard to tell who will mess up badly when put to the test in the air.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jun 3, 2012, 7:38 PM
Post #73 of 97 (781 views)
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I won't try to interject my opinion about who is right or wrong here. I think in order for me (or any of you) to do that, we'd need to hear "both sides of this story".

As I've said up-thread... Something about this situation doesn't sound right? For me, red flags are at full staff. I for one would really like to hear the other side of this story. Is there any chance that will happen? Anyone? Bueller? Smile

Oh, and as for racism/sexism... Really? You need to be very careful when crying wolf. Unsure


jinlee  (D License)

Jun 3, 2012, 10:24 PM
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2 posts by the OP out of a 73 post thread. He is not interesting in replying.

If it's fundamental to the safety of everyone involved no appeal is going to matter. Case in point.

I remember a guy that always needed a drink before getting to the DZ. Twice that I knew of. He didn't get to jump either. Crazy

That is a nail in the coffin everyone can agree with.


(This post was edited by jinlee on Jun 3, 2012, 10:24 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 4, 2012, 5:10 AM
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In reply to:
2 posts by the OP out of a 73 post thread. He is not interesting in replying.

Of course not. He asked a question and people got off on a tangent trying to accuse him of irrelevant shit. Completely understandable.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jun 5, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #76 of 97 (1375 views)
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I gave a guy the bowling speech last week. It was the second time I have done it in 20 years as an instructor. It is not an easy thing to do. Before I talked to him I discussed it with the other instructor from the last jump as well as with the DZO. The decision was not made from just that jump, but also his feedback during the ground-school as well as his first jump. We did not send him away because he was not learning fast enough, but rather because we were worried for his life. It turned out he recognized the reality and was angling for a partial refund on his program (which we gave him).
The only other time I gave the bowling speech was after a woman needed to be dumped out three times through level 5; twice by me and once by another instructor. That one was very hard as she was seeing an experienced jumper and was clearly already one of the family. She didn't take it well and asked if she could do some tunnel time and resume training. I said yes out of moral cowardice rather than from the belief that it would help her. Over the winter she went to the tunnel and resumed training at another DZ. I think she has retired now but went on to make several hundred jumps without serious injury. We have remained friends.
Was I wrong to give her the speech? Is her successful career proof that I was wrong? Hell No! Just because someone doesn't go in doesn't mean the decision process was wrong. How many 'mad skillz' canopy pilots get told they are going to die and are just fine? How many tandem masters use the drogue for stability and never get bit by it? How many drunk drivers get home perfectly safely? Decisions are made based upon perceived risk. Just because the 'higher than acceptable chance event' does not obtain doesn't mean that the risk was not there.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 5, 2012, 7:08 PM
Post #77 of 97 (1281 views)
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In reply to:
I know of one DZO that will be more than happy to take all your money up front for AFF, then take 3-4 months to " fit you in between tandems". They would have no problem finding a "performance" issue to get you to stop calling.

While the vast majority of DZO's and AFFI's are on the up-and-up, it sure isn't all of them.

there are so many potential problems that can come up that I can't recommend anyone buy an AFF program upfront. The potential savings over pay as you go just don't warrant the buy-in. The would be jumper cannot reliably identify a DZ that might have weather issues, prioritize tandems, or just have a bad mesh with the instructors. I learned it the hard (well, the $$) way.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 6, 2012, 2:03 PM
Post #78 of 97 (1165 views)
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In reply to:
there are so many potential problems that can come up that I can't recommend anyone buy an AFF program upfront. .

That's sad and unfortunately true and understandable in some cases but not true in most cases I would venture.

One major thing is that the student doesn't know what he is getting into and few ask the right questions before they sign up.

The other thing is that the student is quite often limited in choices of DZs....kinda like stuck with what they get.

Fortunately (shameless plug here) we have a DZO that makes it a no-brainer to buy in up front. I like to brag that we are more about the fun than the money.

Personally, I have only given the bowling speech once so far.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 8, 2012, 12:08 PM
Post #79 of 97 (996 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
there are so many potential problems that can come up that I can't recommend anyone buy an AFF program upfront. .

That's sad and unfortunately true and understandable in some cases but not true in most cases I would venture.

One major thing is that the student doesn't know what he is getting into and few ask the right questions before they sign up.

They don't know what questions to ask. And even if I did, would the DZO have answered: "We're a tandem mill that barely tolerates upjumpers and the typical window of student acceptable conditions is 4 hours per day. But since your AFF-I will immediately get back on the plane for a tandem after your jump (and maybe 2), he won't debrief you for at least an hour, so at best you could do 2 jumps in the day, but sometimes none." I tell you, for a long time after that I couldn't take seriously the weather reports of any DZ I called.

When I took my break and then went to the new tunnel at Perris to get the stability issue fixed and did got to one jump short of solo freefall, I go back and my prepurchased AFF levels were only good for the specified level - could not use them as L7s or coach jumps or anything but what they specified.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 8, 2012, 2:40 PM
Post #80 of 97 (947 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
there are so many potential problems that can come up that I can't recommend anyone buy an AFF program upfront. .

That's sad and unfortunately true and understandable in some cases but not true in most cases I would venture.

One major thing is that the student doesn't know what he is getting into and few ask the right questions before they sign up.

In reply to:
They don't know what questions to ask.
Exactly

In reply to:
...would the DZO have answered: "We're a tandem mill that....
In some cases, yes. DZOs might hide the truth and put his DZ in the best possible light, yes.

In reply to:
I go back and my prepurchased AFF levels were only good for the specified level - could not use them as L7s or coach jumps or anything but what they specified.
Those DZ rules were either known by you beforehand or not. It sounds like you are saying they were not.

Question is, "Why?"

- you didn't ask
- they didn't tell you
- rules changed after your purchase
- you got bit by Skyride
- other....

Evidently, you had a bad experience. It's not enough to indict the entire industry.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jun 8, 2012, 2:41 PM)


crunchycracker

Jun 8, 2012, 3:07 PM
Post #81 of 97 (936 views)
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Don't give up if your heart is in it. For an instructor to give the bowling speech to someone (unless due to physical condition) means student just has to find the right instructor. One could argue that aomeone isn't mentally right for the sport (and that could be true in case of mental retardation but I will say not always. I have seen mentally retarded people do amazing things that require skill awareness precision and balance). And as far as mentally unstable people? That again is the development of a relationship between instructor and student if the instructor cares enough to develop relationship and time to understand student. I think the key is the student's desire.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 8, 2012, 3:43 PM
Post #82 of 97 (923 views)
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In reply to:
Evidently, you had a bad experience. It's not enough to indict the entire industry.

It's not an indictment. It's a belief, a conclusion that the free repeat AFF level or the 10 jump tickets after isn't worth the opportunity cost of paying up front and committing to that DZ. And it was hardly just my experience that lead to this.

Pay as you go. When you consider the cost of AFF and the first rig running on the higher end of the 5-10k range, $200 is worth the open choices.


Austintxflight

Jun 8, 2012, 8:50 PM
Post #83 of 97 (884 views)
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In reply to:
>but how many times is the bowling speech given because it's more cost effective
>regarding the DZ's resources?

How is it cost effective? An AFF student stuck on level 4 is sort of a cash cow. One JM, two slots, hundreds of dollars a day guaranteed for the DZO.

Actually the DZ can lose money if the student buys one of the packages that is all 25 Jumps for an A then fails repeatedly. Instead of doing cheap solo jumps and coach jumps, they are paying those cheaper rates for more expensive AFF jumps. Its a situation where no one wins, the DZ is stuck honoring prices when a student is progressing and putting money into the student and the student is unhappy they are not progressing. Its a rare situation, but it does happen.


Austintxflight

Jun 8, 2012, 9:06 PM
Post #84 of 97 (882 views)
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In reply to:
dude, I've worked on different little piece of shit cessna dropzones for 4 years now Wink

I have specifically been told racist things about students in confidence by instructors and DZOs. As if I am racist I dont know what these people are thinking about me if they would talk shit about somebody to me behind their backs because they are black, indian (india indian) or whatever.

Maybe people just take a look at you WMW and realize that you're not going to be amiable toward racist talk? Again, I dont know why somebody would say racist things to me, I'm the furthest thing from racist and I inwardly despise people for letting slip any racism.

I think racism on the DZ is the same as racism in the rest of the world.

As the only regular black licensed jumper at my DZ i've not experienced much. But I like to have fun with race, I tell the white jumpers that I always have to worry about hitting the tail of the plane on exit and they don't because white people can't jump Tongue

I also tell them that once black people figure out skydiving we are going to take over just like basketball...

Also I'm trying to set the world black head down record, I need just 1 more guy to do it.


I doubt racism had much to do with this.


In regards to the OP, it sucks when no instructor at the DZ of your choice will jump with you, but in the end the safest thing is to not jump there, weather to go elsewhere or stop is up to you, but if you can't get proper training what else can you do? Good luck in your training and hope you get whatever issues sorted out!


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 9, 2012, 11:32 PM
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Also I'm trying to set the world black head down record, I need just 1 more guy to do it.




In reply to:



Now THAT'S funny! Laugh


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jun 10, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #86 of 97 (759 views)
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In reply to:
I gave a guy the bowling speech last week. It was the second time I have done it in 20 years as an instructor. It is not an easy thing to do. Before I talked to him I discussed it with the other instructor from the last jump as well as with the DZO. The decision was not made from just that jump, but also his feedback during the ground-school as well as his first jump. We did not send him away because he was not learning fast enough, but rather because we were worried for his life. It turned out he recognized the reality and was angling for a partial refund on his program (which we gave him).


Just my $.02 from a former Instructor.. there was a time when brief backs between I & S were thorough and in each of the series of briefings, each should have risen in urgency so as not to make this a total blindside for the student.

Shame on the previous Instructor for handing off the dirty deed for someone else to have to bear and shame on them both for not creating an environment where the Student arrives at the bowling speech on their own.


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Jun 10, 2012, 9:33 AM)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jun 10, 2012, 9:29 AM
Post #87 of 97 (747 views)
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I think you are making conclusions not justified by the info I gave you.
I was the ground school instructor. I cautioned the AFFIs before his level one that he was not the best student and did not listen well. Although he passed passed level one his feedback in the plane left the instructors shaking their head. His canopy control was also very problematic.
I was the reserve side instructor on the level 2 jump with the main side being covered by the same instructor on both loads.
I led the debrief (we were both there) because I was the senior instructor and because I had spent most of the day with him, not because anyone handed off the 'dirty deed.'


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jun 10, 2012, 9:35 AM
Post #88 of 97 (744 views)
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My apologies, sir. It was not addressed to any one person, but the thread participants in general for open discourse about the OP's first post.
I just happened to hit the reply to you and have changed the "Re: Everyone."
Again, my apologies for seemingly singling you out.

keith


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Jun 10, 2012, 9:37 AM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 10, 2012, 9:39 AM
Post #89 of 97 (736 views)
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In reply to:
Pay as you go. When you consider the cost of AFF and the first rig running on the higher end of the 5-10k range, $200 is worth the open choices.
I couldn't agree with you more. Too many students make just a few (or just one or two) jumps and decide it's not for them. That's totally cool. I thank them for giving our sport a try, but they should be free to leave, or go to another DZ, without a financial penalty.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jun 10, 2012, 9:42 AM
Post #90 of 97 (733 views)
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In reply to:
I tell the white jumpers that I always have to worry about hitting the tail of the plane on exit and they don't because white people can't jump Tongue

I also tell them that once black people figure out skydiving we are going to take over just like basketball...

Also I'm trying to set the world black head down record, I need just 1 more guy to do it.
LaughLaugh I've got a couple of friends that could help you out with that record. Smile

I've found that skydivers are only prejudiced against whuffos. Tongue


crunchycracker

Jun 10, 2012, 9:44 AM
Post #91 of 97 (730 views)
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Does anyone know if the TI instructor on the famous elderly lady tandem jump lost his license (not just his tandem ratung)? Would the bowling speech be appropriate for him? Heard he had over 9,000 jumps but does that really matter?


wmw999  (D 6296)

Jun 10, 2012, 12:09 PM
Post #92 of 97 (714 views)
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Everyone makes mistakes. Some people make big ones, others make littler ones. If you make lots of mistakes, your chances of making a big one go up, but even if you don't make that many, you can make a real honker of a mistake.

I don't know his record; people who do know him say that he was a good TM by and large. He was working for a program that doesn't always follow the "pointless, invisible" steps that very cautious by-the-book programs follow.

Why am I saying this? Because focusing on him as the sole source of the problem is wrong. Systems contribute to human fallibility.

Sometimes it really is just the one person; in this case, even if it was, he had a shitload where it didn't work out this way, so obviously he wasn't a total loser who should never have had a license.

Best is to try to learn from this mistake, and make tandems better. Saying "he fucked up, I'm fine" doesn't do htat. Not that you said "I'm fine," just that there have been a whole lot of "he fucked up" posts where the focus really was on the individual, and not how the situation got there.

Wendy P.


Amyr  (C License)

Jun 10, 2012, 3:03 PM
Post #93 of 97 (695 views)
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Quote:
because white people can't jump Tongue

I also tell them that once black people figure out skydiving we are going to take over just like basketball...

Also I'm trying to set the world black head down record, I need just 1 more guy to do it.

FUNNY AS HELL!!! Actually laughed out loud so the LOL response is a true one


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jun 12, 2012, 11:20 AM
Post #94 of 97 (597 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
>but how many times is the bowling speech given because it's more cost effective
>regarding the DZ's resources?

How is it cost effective? An AFF student stuck on level 4 is sort of a cash cow. One JM, two slots, hundreds of dollars a day guaranteed for the DZO.

Actually the DZ can lose money if the student buys one of the packages that is all 25 Jumps for an A then fails repeatedly. Instead of doing cheap solo jumps and coach jumps, they are paying those cheaper rates for more expensive AFF jumps. Its a situation where no one wins, the DZ is stuck honoring prices when a student is progressing and putting money into the student and the student is unhappy they are not progressing. Its a rare situation, but it does happen.

If those were the terms, yes, that would be true. But is it?

My AFF package, and many like it, got me 1 jump at each of 7 AFF levels, plus one repeat (or free jump tickets when cleared for solo). I thought I was committing to 8 AFF jumps, which would tell me if this was something I could do and wanted to do. But really is one jump at L4 (or one + the repeat + $199), followed by one at L5, one at L6....

It is a true cash cow - there is the carrot of the prepaid levels outstanding.


gregpso  (Student)

Jun 12, 2012, 11:59 AM
Post #95 of 97 (570 views)
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In reply to:
So Greg, where ya jumping now?

Nowhere at present (Glen waverley Bowling club) Bridgy said welcomed back anytime. Nagambie will not even reply to my emails (I cannot imagine why LOL) I have tried to extend olive branch but they are not taking it.

You reap what you sow in this world (lesson learned !!)

I got the bowling speeech via email said " based on posts on SS and here you are only welcome for tandems !! That hurt as the 3 AFFs I did there went without a hitch... as well as the 19 tandems.

I still have not gotten over the hurt if the truth be known. Like I said MY FAULT ENTIRELY


guineapiggie101

Jun 13, 2012, 2:38 PM
Post #96 of 97 (435 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

I do understand why people are given the bowling speech. It is for their own good and such. Sometimes, those who are given the bowling speech, end up going elsewhere and completing their license there. Others, go and find new sports and hobbies to get involved with.

What about those who have been given the bowling speech, but cannot find another DZ that will work with them (due to physical limitations)? How does one deal with that, especially if they REALLY want to solo jump again, and would do anything to be given another chance.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jun 13, 2012, 2:53 PM
Post #97 of 97 (430 views)
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Re: [guineapiggie101] Bowling DZOs/managers please read [In reply to] Can't Post

>What about those who have been given the bowling speech, but cannot find another
>DZ that will work with them (due to physical limitations)? How does one deal with that,
>especially if they REALLY want to solo jump again, and would do anything to be given
>another chance.

Sometimes it's worthwhile to find another DZ with different instructors, different aircraft, a different landing area - basically to try to find a DZ where the combination of factors that caused a problem at the first one is different/better/less intimidating.

Other times it's a better idea to back off and try something else - wind tunnel training, paraglider flying - to tackle the problems from another angle. Then with the additional background come back to the sport and give it another try.

And some times, after you give it a few good tries, it's time to find something else you enjoy doing, and concentrate on that.



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