May 28, 2012, 5:39 PM
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elderly skydivers
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A couple of years ago I broke the fatalaties down by age and was surprised that the over 50s contibuted about 30%.
As health problems, sucu as heart disease affect older people more, at what age should jumpers consider regular checkups?
I suspect the recent Oz fatality was health related, based on the news reports. There was also the South African one in the last couple of months.
I am approaching 40 and decided that I would have a heart stress test every 2 years after the South Afrcan death. I've often been asked why I am out of breath after a jump and the incident prompted me to get a checkup. Fortunately in my case I discovered that I have excersize induced asthma and a $5 puffer has literally changed my life. Really wish I had known 20 years ago...
A good friend of mine is 70 in just over a month and still skydives. Yes he does take things a bit slower, but has check-ups regularly. I just hope that I am in the same position as him when I am his age.
It is a great idea to have regular check up regardless of age. Also regular exercise can make a difference. But you have to take it case by case. Never sell old guys short.
“Age and treachery will beat youth and skill every time”
It is a great idea to have regular check up regardless of age. Also regular exercise can make a difference. But you have to take it case by case. Never sell old guys short.
“Age and treachery will beat youth and skill every time”
Sparky
I'm certainly not trying to undermine old guys. It does seem that with age a new/different set of problems arise and most people aren't aware of their new limits. My grandfather stopped driving at 70 as he did not want the indignity of someone having to take his car keys away (something he had been forced to do on a few occasions). I am guessing the same principle applies.
Fortunately in my case I discovered that I have excersize induced asthma and a $5 puffer has literally changed my life. Really wish I had known 20 years ago...
I have both exercise-induced and allergen-induced asthma but in my case I have never had to use my puffer at the DZ. But cases are different and I take one dose of my turbohaler (powder) every morning. (Lowest dosage possible, works great with me.)
BTW: Have you been shown how to use it correctly? (I bet you have... just in case. It's shown in a totally wrong way in many (American) movies.)
I started with a thorough medical inspection by an aviation physician because of my asthma. She did some checks, asked whether my medication was regulated correctly and then told me: Son, yer test results are bl00dy good, better than any average smoker, and probably better than any untrained "normal" folks. Being a TI I have to undergo a medical check every three years, so I think I'm being monitored quite well. Additionally I do sports several times a week (nah, additionally to skydiving ) so I guess that sort of explains RR 125/80 at 60 bpm plus a smile of my young doctress^T doctor every time she stethoscopes me. Hah, I coined a verb?
(This post was edited by Abedy on May 29, 2012, 12:14 PM)
I think it's a pretty valid question. I was on a jump with a 65 plus age jumper who landed on an aad fire and was found dead moments later. Since then I have followed the forums and noticed several similar circumstances. Jumper 'appeared' normal until breakoff. Next thing anybody knew, jumper landed unresponsive under an aad fired reserve or went in with nothing out. In Pauls case it was massive coronary failure. I suspect similar problems with recent cases. (And I know of one that survived-Bob W. are you reading this?) Of course, it is up to DZO's what they want to do. But many of us are getting older in the sport and I think you will see even more of this. Skydiving is intensely fun but seriously demanding on the heart.
I was on a jump with a 65 plus age jumper who landed on an aad fire and was found dead moments later. Since then I have followed the forums and noticed several similar circumstances. Jumper 'appeared' normal until breakoff. Next thing anybody knew, jumper landed unresponsive under an aad fired reserve or went in with nothing out. In Pauls case it was massive coronary failure. I suspect similar problems with recent cases.
I can't think of a better way to go. Track away from an awesome skydive, pull, die and let the AAD leave a pretty corpse for the funeral.
If a 20 year old has the right to take themselves out swooping, a 70 year old has the right to have a heart attack in freefall.
Struth! 39 years ago I discovered that chewing gum, sucking on a hard candy or even just a small stone kept saliva flowing, kept my throat moist, bronchial tubes moist and reduced my exercise-induced asthma to almost nothing. I eventually competed in 10 km and 20 km cross-country running races.
Similarly, I have chewed gum on thousands of skydives ... primarily to help clear my inner ears with altitude changes.
However, when I went for my last cardio stress-test, the technician was afraid to allow me to chew gum (for fear of choking) and needed permission from the cardiologist (medical doctor) before I was allowed to chew gum. Towards the end of my treadmill test, I was striding at 160 beats per minute, more than most 54 year-old men can tolerate. The cardiologist reported no problems and complimented me on much better exercise tolerance than most men in their 50s.
Struth! 39 years ago I discovered that chewing gum, sucking on a hard candy or even just a small stone kept saliva flowing, kept my throat moist, bronchial tubes moist and reduced my exercise-induced asthma to almost nothing. I eventually competed in 10 km and 20 km cross-country running races.
Similarly, I have chewed gum on thousands of skydives ... primarily to help clear my inner ears with altitude changes.
However, when I went for my last cardio stress-test, the technician was afraid to allow me to chew gum (for fear of choking) and needed permission from the cardiologist (medical doctor) before I was allowed to chew gum. Towards the end of my treadmill test, I was striding at 160 beats per minute, more than most 54 year-old men can tolerate. The cardiologist reported no problems and complimented me on much better exercise tolerance than most men in their 50s.
Rob,
Really interesting that chewing gum works for you. Personally until the 'drug' nothing stopped it and I was just convinced I was very unfit.
I remember a person on dz.com getting totally crucified for suggesting chewing gum on skydives to someone else, so the tech wasn't alone
In a recent incident, a great guy showed up at the DZ, he was 69 and full of life. He showed up on his Harley Road King and advised he made 30 or so jumps back in the 70's and wanted to get certified. He had his log book and pictures of him with a rig and belly mount on. (pretty cool). Well a few training tandems later and he was in my FJC. I had some concern as he wasnt very limber, and he didnt respond as quickly as most. I explained it to him and he put in the time to memorize the dive flows and study on his down time, and really train hard on the ground. (persistent guy)
Well he made it to Cat C and repeated a few times before really nailing it. At that moment I thought I might have made the right decision to go forward with him. Great video and a smile ear to ear made us go back up for a Cat D. The dive went okay better than some, it was landing that went a bit haywire. He flew a nice patern into the wind and at flare time only went to his shoulders and in his words. "froze". He did PLF but hit rather hard. He and I knew he injured himself. A week later now he has pins in his pelvis from 4 fractures. Again, he didnt hit all that hard but his age probably was a severe factor. I have seen him several times now and he is still motivated but it looks like a long recovery for him.
Question is, How old is too old? I know it depends on each individual. I have seen some pretty fit older people. But is there a pressure on Instructors to try? Then you see the sos, and Joes and get motivated to help even if it takes longer but is it worth the risk? I have beaten myself up over this one and lost sleep but he assured me he would have done it regardless. Do some DZ's have an age restriction of AFF? I would love to see stats of when most of the JOES started and see if they are mostly jumpers from days of old or if any of them started later in life. Tandems is a totally different picture, as every weekend we are taking 70,80, and even a 92 year old last year. Not a issue as we are introducing them to a great sport and giving them a memory.
Thoughts on how old is too old and if we should have age restrictions to starting? Or maybe have some sort of approval before starting. I dont know.
Question is, How old is too old? I know it depends on each individual.
I've always been of the opinion that these are adults and once they are aware of the risks, should be able to make their own decisions. They are big boys and girls, not babies....
Having said that, I make it quite clear that I will assess them during their training and if I have any doubt as to whether they are able to complete a safe skydive I will not allow them to jump solo.
They all seem to accept that, and trust my judgement either way. For that reason I am against a cut off point based solely on age.
I take a long hard look at them during their training, and any doubt in my mind results in a refusal. Its the same though for any solo candidate, no matter what age.
(This post was edited by obelixtim on Jun 4, 2012, 4:46 AM)
Thank you. These are adults who have a lifetime of making their own decisions behind them. We have the responsibility to assess them as individuals, for the individual jump they're doing.
My father lost much of his eyesight in his late 70's. He quit driving immediately, but kept riding his bicycle (low traffic times, low traffic areas) for another 7-8 years. Every now and then he'd come back bruised or scraped from having gone too close to a tree or something.
We knew that missing a car coming at him was a possibility. We also knew that we'd feel much worse for the driver of the car than for our dad. What better way to go than doing something everyone says you shouldn't be doing at your age?
Thoughts on how old is too old and if we should have age restrictions to starting?
Absolutely not!!! We cannot arbitrarily set an age at which someone is not allowed to skydive - just as our government can't arbitrarily set an age at which someone is no longer allowed to drive.
We allow deaf people, blind people, diabetics, epileptics, amputees and paraplegics to learn to skydive without restrictions. They are advised of the additional risks they are putting themselves under and they make their own adult decision to go ahead and jump. No difference between any of them and a 65 year old woman with osteoporosis or a 70 year old man with undiagnosed heart disease.
As long as someone is not putting anyone else at risk by jumping, who are we to say they can't put themselves at additional risk?
Besides all that, who is going to give this approval? If we are going to require that anyone over a particular age get this approval, we need to require that EVERY jumper be similarly approved.
If I have a heart attack in free fall and land under my AAD deployed reserve, that's okay by me. I was gonna pop that ticker anyway. Just make sure there's at least one keg at the funeral, but two would be better.
If I have a heart attack in free fall and land under my AAD deployed reserve, that's okay by me. I was gonna pop that ticker anyway. Just make sure there's at least one keg at the funeral, but two would be better.
I couldn't agree more. I'd rather die on a woman or under an AAD-deployed canopy. But why a keg at the funeral? I'd order a couple of crates - if ya have a beer, then right from the bottle, no glasses, no hassle
If I have a heart attack in free fall and land under my AAD deployed reserve, that's okay by me.
I've told everyone if I die skydiving, take my rig, my jumpsuit, helmet, altimeter and goggles and push me off to the side of the road and let the state take care of it. They remove dead dogs, don't they?
I like the BPA rules that were posted. I know the owner of our local dz told my wife he turns away people over a certain age as he isn't prepared to have the additional liability/hassle.
The main point of my post originally was what extra precautions should jumpers over a certain age take?
I have no problem with a 100 year old jumping if they are fit to do so. Personally I have no desire to die of a preventable heart attack, simply through ignorance or laziness.
But as with driving there becomes a point where your motor skills simply make you a risk to others. My dad was a good driver, now he scares the crap out of me. Unfortunately it is part of life. At some point I think our abilities degrade to the point that we should stop. The BPA medical seems to cover it. There is no upper age, just a set of capabilities.
skymama (D 26699)
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Jun 4, 2012, 6:34 PM
Post #36 of 71
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If I have a heart attack in free fall and land under my AAD deployed reserve, that's okay by me. I was gonna pop that ticker anyway. Just make sure there's at least one keg at the funeral, but two would be better.
John, You inconsiderate bastard! The last time someone brought a keg to a funeral ... ... I woke up with a fat chick! ... The shock! ... The horror! ... The embarrassment! ... GASP! ... HAH! ... HAH!
(This post was edited by riggerrob on Jun 4, 2012, 7:23 PM)
Simple answer, if they have recently lost their driver's license - for medical reasons - they have lost the vision/eyesight/reaction times needed for solo skydiving.
John, You inconsiderate bastard! The last time someone brought a keg to a funeral ... ... I woke up with a fat chick! ... The shock! ... The horror! ... The embarrassment! ... GASP! ... HAH! ... HAH!
Ahhh, yes Life is for the Living.
Glad to see you got past the mourning period so well.
John, You inconsiderate bastard! The last time someone brought a keg to a funeral ... ... I woke up with a fat chick! ... The shock! ... The horror! ... The embarrassment! ... GASP! ... HAH! ... HAH!
And when you woke up she was asleep but your arm was trapped underneath her, and you had to quietly chew it off and sneak out before she woke up....right?.
(This post was edited by obelixtim on Jun 5, 2012, 12:04 AM)
I like the BPA rules that were posted. I know the owner of our local dz told my wife he turns away people over a certain age as he isn't prepared to have the additional liability/hassle.
The problem I have with requiring "medical" clearance is that most GP's have absolutely no idea about skydiving and tend to think of it as incredibly dangerous, thus disqualifying many people who are perfectly OK to jump.
Again older people are perfectly aware of their age and the limitations that brings, and are big and ugly enough to make their own decisions. It is up to the instructor to then assess their suitability during training.
I like the BPA rules that were posted. I know the owner of our local dz told my wife he turns away people over a certain age as he isn't prepared to have the additional liability/hassle.
The problem I have with requiring "medical" clearance is that most GP's have absolutely no idea about skydiving and tend to think of it as incredibly dangerous, thus disqualifying many people who are perfectly OK to jump.
Again older people are perfectly aware of their age and the limitations that brings, and are big and ugly enough to make their own decisions. It is up to the instructor to then assess their suitability during training.
That should be enough.
The link that was posted for the BPA stuff had a full page of guidelines for the MD to follow.
Sadly I disagree with you. There is plenty of evidence that elderly people continue to drive when they are no longer safe to do so. If people have that problem with driving, then they will have the same with jumping. Obviously everyone is different, which is why I don't like a blanket rule of nobody over X years.
Simple answer, if they have recently lost their driver's license - for medical reasons - they have lost the vision/eyesight/reaction times needed for solo skydiving
I hope it's not entirely that simple. There are visually impaired people who can skydive, but not drive, if nothing else. Just as someone elderly who lives in a rural area can often continue to drive past a point when someone in an urban area has to quit, someone who limits their jumps to 2-ways with experienced friends on perfect days can probably continue to jump longer than someone who swoops.
John, You inconsiderate bastard! The last time someone brought a keg to a funeral ... ... I woke up with a fat chick! ... The shock! ... The horror! ... The embarrassment! ... GASP! ... HAH! ... HAH!
And when you woke up she was asleep but your arm was trapped underneath her, and you had to quietly chew it off and sneak out before she woke up....right?.
I turned 60 the other day and am training with a semi-serious 4-way team. I pack my own rig too. But I started back in the day, took a 15-year layoff, and came back at the age of 46. But, if and when I think it's time to retire, I probably will.
John, You inconsiderate bastard! The last time someone brought a keg to a funeral ... ... I woke up with a fat chick! ... The shock! ... The horror! ... The embarrassment! ... GASP! ... HAH! ... HAH!
And when you woke up she was asleep but your arm was trapped underneath her, and you had to quietly chew it off and sneak out before she woke up....right?.
Every jumper must have a valid 'Declaration of Fitness to Parachute' certificate. Up to the age of 40 you can self-decalre your fitness, (provided you meet the baic criteria) and you need to re-do this declaration every 10 years.
From 40 onwards, or if you don't meet the basic fitness criteria, you need the okay from a doctor. This can be for upto 10 years until age 50, then for upto 3 years.
The BPA Operations Manual also states: "No person under the age of 16 years, or aged 55 years or over, will be permitted to carry out initial ‘solo’ parachute training. Exceptions to the higher age limit may be permitted if the person has previous recorded parachute experience (not to include Student Tandem Parachutist descents). Higher age limits for Student Tandem Parachutists may be acceptable (see BPA Form 115 – Student Tandem Parachutist Declaration of Fitness to Parachute/Doctor’s certificate)."
There have been odd cases where people aged over 55 have been granted an exemption to this rule by the Safety & Training Committee, but I don't recall very many.
Of course, there's nothing to stop someone going abroad and getting the necessary firts jump training, then coming back to the UK and jumping, provided their doctor will stamp their medical decalaration.
Every jumper must have a valid 'Declaration of Fitness to Parachute' certificate. Up to the age of 40 you can self-decalre your fitness, (provided you meet the baic criteria) and you need to re-do this declaration every 10 years.
From 40 onwards, or if you don't meet the basic fitness criteria, you need the okay from a doctor. This can be for upto 10 years until age 50, then for upto 3 years.
The BPA Operations Manual also states: "No person under the age of 16 years, or aged 55 years or over, will be permitted to carry out initial ‘solo’ parachute training. Exceptions to the higher age limit may be permitted if the person has previous recorded parachute experience (not to include Student Tandem Parachutist descents). Higher age limits for Student Tandem Parachutists may be acceptable (see BPA Form 115 – Student Tandem Parachutist Declaration of Fitness to Parachute/Doctor’s certificate)."
There have been odd cases where people aged over 55 have been granted an exemption to this rule by the Safety & Training Committee, but I don't recall very many.
Of course, there's nothing to stop someone going abroad and getting the necessary firts jump training, then coming back to the UK and jumping, provided their doctor will stamp their medical decalaration.
It's well known that the Brits are against all forms of aviation.
Every jumper must have a valid 'Declaration of Fitness to Parachute' certificate. Up to the age of 40 you can self-decalre your fitness, (provided you meet the baic criteria) and you need to re-do this declaration every 10 years.
From 40 onwards, or if you don't meet the basic fitness criteria, you need the okay from a doctor. This can be for upto 10 years until age 50, then for upto 3 years.
The BPA Operations Manual also states: "No person under the age of 16 years, or aged 55 years or over, will be permitted to carry out initial ‘solo’ parachute training. Exceptions to the higher age limit may be permitted if the person has previous recorded parachute experience (not to include Student Tandem Parachutist descents). Higher age limits for Student Tandem Parachutists may be acceptable (see BPA Form 115 – Student Tandem Parachutist Declaration of Fitness to Parachute/Doctor’s certificate)."
There have been odd cases where people aged over 55 have been granted an exemption to this rule by the Safety & Training Committee, but I don't recall very many.
Of course, there's nothing to stop someone going abroad and getting the necessary firts jump training, then coming back to the UK and jumping, provided their doctor will stamp their medical decalaration.
It's well known that the Brits are against all forms of aviation.
Sums up the BPA perfectly. Always finding reasons why things can't be done.
Can't tell the difference between training and actually jumping. The negative "you can't do that" attitude that they take to everything, rather than the "You can do that, here's how".
That negative attitude infects nearly every aspect of British life.
Every jumper must have a valid 'Declaration of Fitness to Parachute' certificate. Up to the age of 40 you can self-decalre your fitness, (provided you meet the baic criteria) and you need to re-do this declaration every 10 years.
From 40 onwards, or if you don't meet the basic fitness criteria, you need the okay from a doctor. This can be for upto 10 years until age 50, then for upto 3 years.
The BPA Operations Manual also states: "No person under the age of 16 years, or aged 55 years or over, will be permitted to carry out initial ‘solo’ parachute training. Exceptions to the higher age limit may be permitted if the person has previous recorded parachute experience (not to include Student Tandem Parachutist descents). Higher age limits for Student Tandem Parachutists may be acceptable (see BPA Form 115 – Student Tandem Parachutist Declaration of Fitness to Parachute/Doctor’s certificate)."
There have been odd cases where people aged over 55 have been granted an exemption to this rule by the Safety & Training Committee, but I don't recall very many.
Of course, there's nothing to stop someone going abroad and getting the necessary firts jump training, then coming back to the UK and jumping, provided their doctor will stamp their medical decalaration.
It's well known that the Brits are against all forms of aviation.
Sums up the BPA perfectly. Always finding reasons why things can't be done.
Must be why they call it the "Ban Parachuting Association".
I have jumped with Tom Morrison from Pennsylvania on a SOS big way record attempt in Florida in 2005. Tom was then 80 year old and doing well. I am mylself a SOS with 40 years of continuous membership in skydiving. Unfortunately, we are not all equal concerning our personal shape and health. A good idea is to be followed by a doctor you trust and see him/her at least once a year. Recently I was asked to do a parachute demo over my former school in Ontario ( I have been there a physics teacher for more than 30 years). I got all the papers and NOTAM to do so and I and a friend of mine did the demo at the spectator satisfaction. A lot of people were surprised to see a seemingly old man still jumping...and with a Katana.
I have jumped with Tom Morrison from Pennsylvania on a SOS big way record attempt in Florida in 2005. Tom was then 80 year old and doing well. I am mylself a SOS with 40 years of continuous membership in skydiving. Unfortunately, we are not all equal concerning our personal shape and health. A good idea is to be followed by a doctor you trust and see him/her at least once a year. Recently I was asked to do a parachute demo over my former school in Ontario ( I have been there a physics teacher for more than 30 years). I got all the papers and NOTAM to do so and I and a friend of mine did the demo at the spectator satisfaction. A lot of people were surprised to see a seemingly old man still jumping...and with a Katana.
Recently I was asked to do a parachute demo over my former school in Ontario ( I have been there a physics teacher for more than 30 years). A lot of people were surprised to see a seemingly old man still jumping...and with a Katana.
Very cool indeed. And as a physics professor, what a lot of great lesson tie-ins to our sport. Too many kids think science is boring. Hell, it's the $#it, Bay-Bee!
I'd like to know if there is any EVIDENCE that self certifying as we do in the USA leads to any more medically related skydiving incidents than the stiflingly strict medical requirements in the UK.
We already know that self certifying for the sport pilot license has not produced any more aviation incidents than requiring a Class 3 medical for a private pilot license in the USA.
This elderly jumper just filmed 18 tandems over the weekend packing my own rig (Katana @1:1.75).
Yeah Baby!
I would have chimed in sooner but I've been busy doing out door stuff.
Sandy, you are such a geezer!
Good news (for pilots) is that the FAA is seriously considering going to self certification rather than a Class 3 medical for private pilots in non-complex airplanes. Apparently they have NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that the Class 3 medical requirement has any beneficial effect.
I started with a thorough medical inspection by an aviation physician because of my asthma...
Great idea to see an aviation physician. Different doctors tend to look for different things. Always best to go to someone who is familiar with the demands of your work.
In reply to:
Being a TI I have to undergo a medical check every three years...
Every 3 years? What happened to at least annual check ups? Everyone should do that as a minimum... regardless of being in the sport. Nothing wrong with going more frequently than that.
Every 3 years? What happened to at least annual check ups? Everyone should do that as a minimum... regardless of being in the sport. Nothing wrong with going more frequently than that.
Annual? The MD gives me a vigorous cardiovascular workout several times a week.
(Did I mention that my girlfrend is an MD?)
(This post was edited by kallend on Jul 16, 2012, 2:55 PM)
Every 3 years? What happened to at least annual check ups? Everyone should do that as a minimum... regardless of being in the sport. Nothing wrong with going more frequently than that.
Annual? The MD gives me a vigorous cardiovascular workout several times a week.
In my precedent post on this thread I have mentioned that we are not all equal concerning health. I am in the sport for 40 years and I am 67 year old and still able to fly in an acceptable manner. Just to encourage you, here is the picture of the 102 way new Canadian record which was performed on Friday July 13, 2012 at Nouvel Air DZ, Farnham Quebec Canada. I am in royal blue jumpsuit in the six way base at 9h:15 (see included picture). But if you prefer to see the record video have a look at : http://youtu.be/FvURXQ43788 At the video beginning I am just in front of the cameraman breathing oxygen at 18000 ft. This video is quite impressive for it shows from an interesting angle how the record formation was built. Moreover, I am not an exception, if you look on the picture at about 9 O'clock on the second last helix in white jumpsuit, there is a lady friend of mine few months older than me. In last April she was part of the POPS new record, a completed 60 way in California. She also has been on the 182 way Jump for the Cause in California few years ago. Don't forget, see a doctor regularly.
Every 3 years? What happened to at least annual check ups? Everyone should do that as a minimum... regardless of being in the sport. Nothing wrong with going more frequently than that.
Annual? The MD gives me a vigorous cardiovascular workout several times a week.
Terry-C-Weatherford-SOS-0089.jpg
) so I guess that sort of explains RR 125/80 at 60 bpm plus a smile of my young doctress^T doctor every time she stethoscopes me. Hah, I coined a verb? 
