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Bad Tandem

 

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dorbie

Oct 12, 2012, 5:10 PM
Post #176 of 260 (54432 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't have an axe to grind with mr. Dause but it is my opinion that once you have to resort to plain stupidity in explaining things to the press you tend to lose your credibility and more important: your integrity.

Not a pleasant thing to watch.

If he said it, he may have had the whuffo audience in mind and not the skydiver audience.

But if we assume he is a man of honor and take him at his word it is a very troubling remark indeed. People are known to be capable of holding such foolish beliefs.

NASA engineers used to examine Shuttle booster O-Rings and call the remaining rubber that survived burn-through/blow-by their "safety margin" when in fact it was a failure. Then the Challenger blew up.

Does Dause really believe what he said? If so it should be corrected. SOMEBODY needs to talk to the guy.


(This post was edited by dorbie on Oct 12, 2012, 5:12 PM)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Oct 12, 2012, 5:14 PM
Post #177 of 260 (54427 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The Federal Aviation Administration told KTVU that the skydiving professional, Dennis McGlynn, is being fined $2,200 for violating federal aviation regulations, namely improperly fitting the harness and exiting the aircraft improperly.

This may be a bit off topic, but.....
What power does the FAA have to enforce this fine or to collect? Just courious?Cool

Power? They are the FAA. They have the power to isssue citations (tickets). Those citations have the same authority and penalties for not paying or showing up in court as any other law enforcement agency. A lot of people seem to think that because they don't have an airman's certificate for the FAA to pull, that there's nothing the FAA can do to them.
Not true.

Interestingly, I can't find anywhere that this authority is spelled out, at least not with a quick search.


dorbie

Oct 12, 2012, 5:15 PM
Post #178 of 260 (54424 views)
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Re: [The_Don] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

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Both before granny.

Maybe they should invent the tandem sack instead of a tandem harness. I hear it's saved at least one wingsuiter.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Oct 12, 2012, 7:08 PM
Post #179 of 260 (54380 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't have an axe to grind with mr. Dause but it is my opinion that once you have to resort to plain stupidity in explaining things to the press you tend to lose your credibility and more important: your integrity.

Not a pleasant thing to watch.

If he said it, he may have had the whuffo audience in mind and not the skydiver audience.

But if we assume he is a man of honor and take him at his word it is a very troubling remark indeed. People are known to be capable of holding such foolish beliefs.

NASA engineers used to examine Shuttle booster O-Rings and call the remaining rubber that survived burn-through/blow-by their "safety margin" when in fact it was a failure. Then the Challenger blew up.

Does Dause really believe what he said? If so it should be corrected. SOMEBODY needs to talk to the guy.
In reply to:


I would wonder if Bill ever said that. I would also wonder if the reporter put words in Bill's mouth....but ....no way......that has NEVER happened. I would believe it if it was said, uninterupted, on video.....otherwise, not.


nutellaontoast  (A 55700)

Oct 12, 2012, 8:12 PM
Post #180 of 260 (54358 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Does Dause really believe what he said? If so it should be corrected. SOMEBODY needs to talk to the guy.

Yes, be sure to bring that up with him next time you see him!


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Oct 13, 2012, 6:14 AM
Post #181 of 260 (54263 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think the answer is Yes, same guy. Why? what is the relevance?

Matt

I was just curious, but if there is relevance it's that this wasn't some 500 jump chump with 3 years in the sport and a brand new rating and if it can happen to a guy with that kind of experience it could probably happen to any of us.


LyraM45  (B 26378)

Oct 13, 2012, 6:25 AM
Post #182 of 260 (54257 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I would wonder if Bill ever said that. I would also wonder if the reporter put words in Bill's mouth....but ....no way......that has NEVER happened. I would believe it if it was said, uninterupted, on video.....otherwise, not.

It was on video. Take a look at the news stories just out the other day:

http://www.ktvu.com/...r-mishap-last/vff3Y/


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 13, 2012, 6:58 AM
Post #183 of 260 (54246 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I would wonder if Bill ever said that. I would also wonder if the reporter put words in Bill's mouth....but ....no way......that has NEVER happened. I would believe it if it was said, uninterupted, on video.....otherwise, not.

Ok, so it's on video, and you were provided a link. How about now, do you believe he said it?

The amount of leeway some jumpers are willing to give a guy who routinely puts their lives in danger is incredible. I bet you think the FAA made up all that stuff about ignored safety checks and expired control cables, right? Do you need to see that on video? How about the fuel pump inpsection that brought down his Kng Air up in Canada, do I need to get a video of that inspection not being done (if that's even possible)?

Wake up man, the guy is living in his own little world, and that's great fun until 21 of you end up dead all at once. If Bill isn't on that plane, he'll either fire up antoher one and keep up 'business' as usual, or he'll sell the rest of them and disappear with a pile of cash and live out his days any way he pleases. Meanwhile, 20+ jumpers will be dead, and 20+ families will be broken, and untold lives will be effected.

Does is register with you that the only supporters he has are the local Lodi jumpers? Where are the other jumpers coming to his aid, and saying what a great guy he is? Why is it that so many people with no dog in the NorCal market look at the situation and see nothing but trouble brewing? What about the idea that people with no dog in that market even know about the happenings at Lodi? You realize that without the media coverage there would be no info for us to consider when coming to a conclusion, right? I'm sure there are 10 DZs in NoCal that I've never even heard of, and that's because they're not fucking up so bad that DZ.com and the national media is always covering them.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Oct 13, 2012, 7:51 AM
Post #184 of 260 (54220 views)
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Re: [LyraM45] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I would wonder if Bill ever said that. I would also wonder if the reporter put words in Bill's mouth....but ....no way......that has NEVER happened. I would believe it if it was said, uninterupted, on video.....otherwise, not.

It was on video. Take a look at the news stories just out the other day:

http://www.ktvu.com/...r-mishap-last/vff3Y/

IMO: He willingly and openly lied, and now there is a permanent record of it for future lawsuits. Which in my opinion are just bound to happen, again. Our sport, is being done serious harm by our own lazy and money grabbing members.

Matt


LyraM45  (B 26378)

Oct 13, 2012, 10:25 AM
Post #185 of 260 (54179 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I would wonder if Bill ever said that. I would also wonder if the reporter put words in Bill's mouth....but ....no way......that has NEVER happened. I would believe it if it was said, uninterupted, on video.....otherwise, not.

Ok, so it's on video, and you were provided a link. How about now, do you believe he said it?

The amount of leeway some jumpers are willing to give a guy who routinely puts their lives in danger is incredible. I bet you think the FAA made up all that stuff about ignored safety checks and expired control cables, right? Do you need to see that on video? How about the fuel pump inpsection that brought down his Kng Air up in Canada, do I need to get a video of that inspection not being done (if that's even possible)?

I've actually had locals tell me everybody is misinformed, doesn't understand what really happened, and the FAA is just out to get Bill. (This isn't just in regard to the tandem thing-- this also goes back with the other FAA fines over the past few years)

I ask how they know this, and they said because Bill and the pilots say so. Laugh


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 13, 2012, 1:58 PM
Post #186 of 260 (54113 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
The Federal Aviation Administration told KTVU that the skydiving professional, Dennis McGlynn, is being fined $2,200 for violating federal aviation regulations, namely improperly fitting the harness and exiting the aircraft improperly.

This may be a bit off topic, but.....
What power does the FAA have to enforce this fine or to collect? Just courious?Cool

Power? They are the FAA. They have the power to isssue citations (tickets). Those citations have the same authority and penalties for not paying or showing up in court as any other law enforcement agency. A lot of people seem to think that because they don't have an airman's certificate for the FAA to pull, that there's nothing the FAA can do to them.
Not true.

Interestingly, I can't find anywhere that this authority is spelled out, at least not with a quick search.

The FAA is not a law enforcement agency. They are a regulatory agency. The FARs are regulation not laws. They are part of Title 14 of the CFRs. The FFAs power of enforcement is through the US District Courts. See FAR Part 13.16.

Sparky


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Oct 13, 2012, 3:33 PM
Post #187 of 260 (54089 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks. FAR 13.16
That's what I was looking for.

I know that the FAA isn't a law enforcement agency. But the citations they write (civil forfeitures) have the same authority and penalties for ignoring them as those written by a real law enforcement agency.

And yes, they are regs, not laws. So the penalties are going to be fines, not jail time.
But ignoring the citations the FAA issues will get someone into serious trouble, including possible jail time (the jail time isn't for violating the reg, it's for failing to pay the fine).


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 13, 2012, 6:17 PM
Post #188 of 260 (54033 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And yes, they are regs, not laws. So the penalties are going to be fines, not jail time.
But ignoring the citations the FAA issues will get someone into serious trouble, including possible jail time (the jail time isn't for violating the reg, it's for failing to pay the fine).


Um.... yea, if you violate enough of those reg's you can do jail time, period! I know a pilot who did prison time for doing so, it had nothing to do with any fines. I also met in person with the DOT cops, yes they have DOT cops, or special investigative units, these are officers of the law they carry guns, badges and handcuffs on their person and they can and will arrest you and throw in jail.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Oct 13, 2012, 9:21 PM
Post #189 of 260 (53984 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the reply Dave......I did just watch the video, and did not hear Bill Dause say that the harness was adjusted correctly....we all know it was not...duh....I did notice though, that it had an edit in the middle....I was looking for an "uninterupted" video if you recall. I don't think you will find one....The mistake was made by an independent contractor, like yourself, who should be punished for what "he did", just like you would and should be if you put a customer in harms way....Let me know if you have video of Bill saying the harness was properly adjusted....Thanks again for your time.


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Oct 13, 2012, 10:06 PM
Post #190 of 260 (53960 views)
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Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

So here is a question, I heard USPA/UPT revoked his TI rating? Correct or incorrect?

The other two TI's that had people fall out of harnesses before this one, did they get their ratings pulled or are they still jumping tandems?


(This post was edited by SEREJumper on Oct 13, 2012, 10:06 PM)


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 13, 2012, 11:30 PM
Post #191 of 260 (53939 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I know one of them personally, he handed in his ratings on his own accord after the event. Later I believe they were returned without his requesting. I don't believe has done or still jumps tdm. But I don't know for sure.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 14, 2012, 6:41 AM
Post #192 of 260 (17519 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
did not hear Bill Dause say that the harness was adjusted correctly....we all know it was not...duh....I did notice though, that it had an edit in the middle....I was looking for an "uninterupted" video if you recall.

All I recall is what I read, and what I read was that the quote that was in question was where he said that, 'There was no way she could have fallen out of the harness, or she would have'. That clearly appears on the video linked, and was the reason that link was provided, to clear up the issue of if he did, or did not, say that.

In terms of him suggesting the harness was correctly adjusted, I'm not sure he ever made that claim or if it was ever called into question. The incident itself proves that the harness was not adjusted correctly.

That said, the quote was real, and a lie. People can and have fallen out of harnesses before. There was no 'fail safe' in place to ensure that you cannot fall out of a harness, short of proper adjustment. As proper adjustment was clearly not present, there was indeed, nothing to prevent her from falling out of the harness, despite what Bill said.

You can try, but you're fighting a losing battle. Sure the guy was an independent contractor, but in that case Bill is the general contractor, and it's his responsibility to select good contractors and oversee their work. Let's be honest, however, we all know that the IC status is onyl in place for the sake making it easy for the DZ to employ workers without providing workmans comp, or paying into social security. At the end of the day, it's Bill's DZ, he the boss, and he's in charge of everything that happens.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Oct 14, 2012, 8:36 AM
Post #193 of 260 (1623 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

IIFC; One lost all Tandem ratings pulled by the Manufacturers, the Other turned his in prior to the manufacturers acting, he even turned in his USPA rating.

After one incident, a DZ shut down or was sold, filling for or hiding behind bankruptcy proceedings, Strong had to do a similar thing. The T-I was in the suit and then was dropped, no money to get from him.

One incident was a similar to the near incident in Lodi, an environment of complacent actions and individuals, from the top down.

The Other, a bad scenario that happened in the plane, all traced to being preventable by sticking to a previous procedure that had worked.

Matt


LyraM45  (B 26378)

Oct 14, 2012, 1:40 PM
Post #194 of 260 (1543 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for the reply Dave......I did just watch the video, and did not hear Bill Dause say that the harness was adjusted correctly....we all know it was not...duh....I did notice though, that it had an edit in the middle....I was looking for an "uninterupted" video if you recall. I don't think you will find one....The mistake was made by an independent contractor, like yourself, who should be punished for what "he did", just like you would and should be if you put a customer in harms way....Let me know if you have video of Bill saying the harness was properly adjusted....Thanks again for your time.

The debate was never over him saying anything about the harness being adjusted properly. A few times during this whole thread, and your post which has started the back and forth with dave, was in regard to "she couldn't have fallen out of the harness, because if she could have, she would have." The video was linked to him saying that uninterrupted.

I think it's pretty cut and dry that her harness was not fitted properly. And I think it's pretty obvious that she could have fallen out of her harness. So, the quote in question has people scratching their heads a bit.




mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 15, 2012, 10:48 PM
Post #196 of 260 (1218 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So here is a question, I heard USPA/UPT revoked his TI rating? Correct or incorrect?

The other two TI's that had people fall out of harnesses before this one, did they get their ratings pulled or are they still jumping tandems?

This thread is not about what happened to other TIs. Its about this TI.

Sparky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhVoLMWH6hk


hangdiver  (D License)

Oct 16, 2012, 12:47 PM
Post #197 of 260 (1072 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think the answer is Yes, same guy. Why? what is the relevance?

Matt

I was just curious, but if there is relevance it's that this wasn't some 500 jump chump with 3 years in the sport and a brand new rating and if it can happen to a guy with that kind of experience it could probably happen to any of us.

That is the point of this entire incident. All of you tandem instructors are only one jump away from something happening that you thought was impossible.

I will tell you all that fat will squish through a harness that was adjusted properly on the ground.

Say what you want...this was no FNG...armchair quarterbacks are a dime a dozen...when shit hits the fan he did all he could to save her life...and he succeeded and now all you button pushers think you know what happened from a video as well as the FAA.

hangdiver


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Oct 16, 2012, 1:12 PM
Post #198 of 260 (1051 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I will tell you all that fat will squish through a harness that was adjusted properly on the ground.

Are you claiming this harness was properly adjusted on the ground? If so, you're full of shit because there's video proof it wasn't even close.

If that harness was properly adjusted on the ground this thread wouldn't even be alive and you wouldn't have to be backing up your idiot friend who almost killed someone's family member. Plain and simple.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 16, 2012, 1:41 PM
Post #199 of 260 (1037 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

>I will tell you all that fat will squish through a harness that was adjusted properly on the ground.

No it won't. You can adjust a harness so that what you saw on that video is impossible. You will indeed get squish, mainly on opening - all that fat will allow the legstraps to dig far into their butts/thighs and they will hang down much lower than normal.

But if your tandem harnesses really allow someone to escape during an exit - you're doing it wrong.

>when shit hits the fan he did all he could to save her life...

Yes, he did - good for him.

But that's akin to a pilot who, through his own carelessness, runs out of gas and has to land on a highway, narrowly avoiding all traffic. Yes, he was a good pilot AFTER he ran out of gas. But he was such a bad pilot before that that losing his rating is a very real possibility.


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 16, 2012, 1:58 PM
Post #200 of 260 (1028 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I will tell you all that fat will squish through a harness that was adjusted properly on the ground.


In reply to:

I too disagree, way to many squishy tandems have been done without similar results.


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