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Bad Tandem

 

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DougH  (D License)

Jun 1, 2012, 10:51 AM
Post #126 of 260 (2943 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

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I don't know specifically what Lodi did to change things. Robin mounted a rather strong defense of the TI, and I made a rebuttal. While both of us agree that the TI screwed up, the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

I think people have been equally critical of Lodi and the TI, and rightfully so.

Yes the DZ environment can influence an instructors behavior. But an instructor can choose their environment.

You can refuse to take students on back to backs without being given the chance to do a final adjustment before boarding the plane.

You can refuse to be an instructor at a DZ that has poor safety procedures, poor maintenance programs, won't give you go around, etc etc.

No one has a gun to your head when you choose a DZ, or when you leave the plane with your student.


marks2065  (D 18925)

Jun 1, 2012, 11:22 AM
Post #127 of 260 (2918 views)
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Re: [DougH] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't know specifically what Lodi did to change things. Robin mounted a rather strong defense of the TI, and I made a rebuttal. While both of us agree that the TI screwed up, the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

I think people have been equally critical of Lodi and the TI, and rightfully so.

Yes the DZ environment can influence an instructors behavior. But an instructor can choose their environment.

You can refuse to take students on back to backs without being given the chance to do a final adjustment before boarding the plane.

You can refuse to be an instructor at a DZ that has poor safety procedures, poor maintenance programs, won't give you go around, etc etc.

No one has a gun to your head when you choose a DZ, or when you leave the plane with your student.

I was what a DZO would call a bad instructor. I refused to do back to backs, spent time with the student before and after the jump, and never got on the plane without the lower half of the harness fully adjusted(leaving just a minor adjustment to back strap and shoulders on plane for comfort) The DZO hated this because it lowered my student count. But then I wasn't in it for the money, just for fun and helping the student get the most out of the experience. The TI's that actually pay their bills with jumps were always rushed and sometimes sloppy with the harness. I feel we need to slow the tandem mills down and worry more about the value to the student instead of the income from the student.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jun 1, 2012, 11:51 AM
Post #128 of 260 (2887 views)
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Re: [marks2065] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was what a DZO would call a bad instructor. I refused to do back to backs, spent time with the student before and after the jump, and never got on the plane without the lower half of the harness fully adjusted(leaving just a minor adjustment to back strap and shoulders on plane for comfort) The DZO hated this because it lowered my student count. But then I wasn't in it for the money, just for fun and helping the student get the most out of the experience. The TI's that actually pay their bills with jumps were always rushed and sometimes sloppy with the harness. I feel we need to slow the tandem mills down and worry more about the value to the student instead of the income from the student.

Me too. The DZO and I had an agreement before I even got my rating that this is the way I would work... I added a rig and TI to his staff on busy days, but only at my speed. I was also the first to back down when the student count was low, because I didn't want to get in the way of the TI's who were trying to make any real money.

A neighboring DZ asked me to come teach for them, and after seeing their gear I agreed on one condition... I jump only my own rig (their rigs were junk) and I pack for myself. Rather than have me for the slow/steady jumps I was willing to do, they told me that my conditions were unacceptable. OK. No problem. They need the TI's, I don't need the work. Their problem, not mine.

I like the idea that one can share what we do and that it can pay for my training and fun jumps, but I do think that trying to actually make any real money at this requires shortcuts that are unacceptable (at least, to me...)

JW


feuergnom  (D License)

Jun 1, 2012, 12:02 PM
Post #129 of 260 (2871 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I was what a DZO would call a bad instructor. I refused to do back to backs, spent time with the student before and after the jump, and never got on the plane without the lower half of the harness fully adjusted(leaving just a minor adjustment to back strap and shoulders on plane for comfort) The DZO hated this because it lowered my student count. But then I wasn't in it for the money, just for fun and helping the student get the most out of the experience. The TI's that actually pay their bills with jumps were always rushed and sometimes sloppy with the harness. I feel we need to slow the tandem mills down and worry more about the value to the student instead of the income from the student.

Me too. The DZO and I had an agreement before I even got my rating that this is the way I would work... I added a rig and TI to his staff on busy days, but only at my speed. I was also the first to back down when the student count was low, because I didn't want to get in the way of the TI's who were trying to make any real money.

A neighboring DZ asked me to come teach for them, and after seeing their gear I agreed on one condition... I jump only my own rig (their rigs were junk) and I pack for myself. Rather than have me for the slow/steady jumps I was willing to do, they told me that my conditions were unacceptable. OK. No problem. They need the TI's, I don't need the work. Their problem, not mine.

I like the idea that one can share what we do and that it can pay for my training and fun jumps, but I do think that trying to actually make any real money at this requires shortcuts that are unacceptable (at least, to me...)

JW

your two posts combined define the root of all the shit happening, maybe we should move this discussion over to the instructors forum?


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Jun 1, 2012, 12:55 PM
Post #130 of 260 (2830 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

So someone might be a good TI in general, but if the DZ encourages speedy harnessing and less than rigorous tightening up in the airplane, to keep turnaround fast and because it hasn't caused big problems before, then the instructor may tend towards doing things that way. That becomes the norm, the local culture. (That's hypothetical - I don't know how things actually worked at Lodi
I do not buy this as a valid argument. How long does it take to gear up a student with less than perfect harness job? How long does it take to adjust the harness correctly? My estimate is about the same time or just 1 minute more for the later one. Once an instructor has been around for awhile and with 3000 tandems I would hope he could gear one up quickly and well. Now lets even follow this down to a turn in the field (which this one is not) it only adds about a minute or two to look over a preharnessed student to see if it is adjusted close enough or make a few minor adjustments. Also you have the plane flight time which should be used to check and recheck the harness fit or at least in my book. Bottom line there is no acceptable excuse for what happened.
While training 4-way there in 2008 these are things I have witnessed first hand.

1. Student meeting instructor in loading area. During these times I have seen both the harness loose and tight. I have also watched instructors tighten the harness before entering the plane and after.

2. I have watched a TI take his rig off so he could sit in the right seat of the otter and then put the rig on jump run.

3. Had an entire otter load screaming at me to open the door at 1000'. I refused due to the TI and student at the end of the bench not only not being connected but the student harness loose and the TI tightening his own leg straps. Once everything was tightened I opened the door. The TI thanked me for not giving in to the whining babies on board.

4. Had to wake up a camera flier in the "hole" on jump run before he missed his tandem.


(This post was edited by billvon on Jun 4, 2012, 6:28 AM)






LyraM45  (B 26378)

Jun 1, 2012, 5:20 PM
Post #133 of 260 (2672 views)
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Re: [jtiflyer] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

So someone might be a good TI in general, but if the DZ encourages speedy harnessing and less than rigorous tightening up in the airplane, to keep turnaround fast and because it hasn't caused big problems before, then the instructor may tend towards doing things that way. That becomes the norm, the local culture. (That's hypothetical - I don't know how things actually worked at Lodi

I do not buy this as a valid argument. How long does it take to gear up a student with less than perfect harness job? How long does it take to adjust the harness correctly? My estimate is about the same time or just 1 minute more for the later one. Once an instructor has been around for awhile and with 3000 tandems I would hope he could gear one up quickly and well. Now lets even follow this down to a turn in the field (which this one is not) it only adds about a minute or two to look over a preharnessed student to see if it is adjusted close enough or make a few minor adjustments. Also you have the plane flight time which should be used to check and recheck the harness fit or at least in my book. Bottom line there is no acceptable excuse for what happened.
While training 4-way there in 2008 these are things I have witnessed first hand.

1. Student meeting instructor in loading area. During these times I have seen both the harness loose and tight. I have also watched instructors tighten the harness before entering the plane and after.

2. I have watched a TI take his rig off so he could sit in the right seat of the otter and then put the rig on jump run.

3. Had an entire otter load screaming at me to open the door at 1000'. I refused due to the TI and student at the end of the bench not only not being connected but the student harness loose and the TI tightening his own leg straps. Once everything was tightened I opened the door. The TI thanked me for not giving in to the whining babies on board.

4. Had to wake up a camera flier in the "hole" on jump run before he missed his tandem.

And let's not even bring up the Temp pin that was found in a tandem rig ON THE NEXT REPACK.
Ditto.... I've also witnessed things there with my own two eyes that makes me very doubtful that the DZ environment and style had nothing to do with the incident as Robin went waaaaayyy far out of the way to point out. It was just one of many things in a chain. All of which are unacceptable.


swoopgaz  (E 1964)

Jun 1, 2012, 5:56 PM
Post #134 of 260 (2642 views)
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Re: [marks2065] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't know specifically what Lodi did to change things. Robin mounted a rather strong defense of the TI, and I made a rebuttal. While both of us agree that the TI screwed up, the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

I think people have been equally critical of Lodi and the TI, and rightfully so.

Yes the DZ environment can influence an instructors behavior. But an instructor can choose their environment.

You can refuse to take students on back to backs without being given the chance to do a final adjustment before boarding the plane.

You can refuse to be an instructor at a DZ that has poor safety procedures, poor maintenance programs, won't give you go around, etc etc.

No one has a gun to your head when you choose a DZ, or when you leave the plane with your student.

I was what a DZO would call a bad instructor. I refused to do back to backs, spent time with the student before and after the jump, and never got on the plane without the lower half of the harness fully adjusted(leaving just a minor adjustment to back strap and shoulders on plane for comfort) The DZO hated this because it lowered my student count. But then I wasn't in it for the money, just for fun and helping the student get the most out of the experience. The TI's that actually pay their bills with jumps were always rushed and sometimes sloppy with the harness. I feel we need to slow the tandem mills down and worry more about the value to the student instead of the income from the student.

Mate if you let your student get on the plane with a harness that is not fully adjusted and ready to jump then you are a "bad instructor." there is no place for a student to be getting on a plane that is not ready to jump. A harness can not be properly fitted/adjusted once they are sitting. If you are leaving the top half loose for comfort that is poor form.






marks2065  (D 18925)

Jun 4, 2012, 6:21 AM
Post #137 of 260 (1954 views)
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Re: [swoopgaz] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't know specifically what Lodi did to change things. Robin mounted a rather strong defense of the TI, and I made a rebuttal. While both of us agree that the TI screwed up, the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

I think people have been equally critical of Lodi and the TI, and rightfully so.

Yes the DZ environment can influence an instructors behavior. But an instructor can choose their environment.

You can refuse to take students on back to backs without being given the chance to do a final adjustment before boarding the plane.

You can refuse to be an instructor at a DZ that has poor safety procedures, poor maintenance programs, won't give you go around, etc etc.

No one has a gun to your head when you choose a DZ, or when you leave the plane with your student.

I was what a DZO would call a bad instructor. I refused to do back to backs, spent time with the student before and after the jump, and never got on the plane without the lower half of the harness fully adjusted(leaving just a minor adjustment to back strap and shoulders on plane for comfort) The DZO hated this because it lowered my student count. But then I wasn't in it for the money, just for fun and helping the student get the most out of the experience. The TI's that actually pay their bills with jumps were always rushed and sometimes sloppy with the harness. I feel we need to slow the tandem mills down and worry more about the value to the student instead of the income from the student.

Mate if you let your student get on the plane with a harness that is not fully adjusted and ready to jump then you are a "bad instructor." there is no place for a student to be getting on a plane that is not ready to jump. A harness can not be properly fitted/adjusted once they are sitting. If you are leaving the top half loose for comfort that is poor form.

what I meant was the 2 shoulder adjustments would be a little loose when sitting and a quick snug when on the plane.the back strap, legs straps and chest strap fully adjusted the student was ready to go when getting on the plane short of my pulling down the shoulder adjustments (loose from sitting) and connecting the 4 attachmnents.


DougH  (D License)

Jun 4, 2012, 7:59 AM
Post #138 of 260 (1891 views)
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Re: [marks2065] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I just don't see how you can get it right while in the plane.

The shoulders are almost always loose when the student is seated. They hunch over in the plane and their length shortens a bit. If the adjustment was perfect on the MLW while outside of the plane and standing, and then you crank on it in the plane you are now over tightened.

If you crank them down in the plane while seated you are likely over tightening them and you end up with an uncomfortable student who is fighting the harness when they arch.

If you adjust it right while on the ground you don't have to touch the adjustments in the plane. I check that the leg straps didn't loosen up or slide down, I check the butt strap is still tight and in position.

Otherwise I never have to touch the MLW adjustment, or the diagonals. The strong manual specifically states to avoid adjustments in the plane.


(This post was edited by DougH on Jun 4, 2012, 8:01 AM)


marks2065  (D 18925)

Jun 4, 2012, 8:27 AM
Post #139 of 260 (1858 views)
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Re: [DougH] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just don't see how you can get it right while in the plane.

The shoulders are almost always loose when the student is seated. They hunch over in the plane and their length shortens a bit. If the adjustment was perfect on the MLW while outside of the plane and standing, and then you crank on it in the plane you are now over tightened.

If you crank them down in the plane while seated you are likely over tightening them and you end up with an uncomfortable student who is fighting the harness when they arch.

If you adjust it right while on the ground you don't have to touch the adjustments in the plane. I check that the leg straps didn't loosen up or slide down, I check the butt strap is still tight and in position.

Otherwise I never have to touch the MLW adjustment, or the diagonals. The strong manual specifically states to avoid adjustments in the plane.

Most of my tandems were done with stradle benches making it very easy to make upper adjustments. Like I said in my origonal post that I was usually a little to tight on the adjustments and maybe that did lead to some discomfort on the part of the student, but with my adjustments the TI here in question could have stood up and supported the student and walked out of the plane with no issues while carrying the student from the harness attachments. this entire debate and skydive would have never happened if he had me adjust the harness.


DougH  (D License)

Jun 4, 2012, 10:11 AM
Post #140 of 260 (1779 views)
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Re: [marks2065] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree 100% there Mark! I totally would had rather had an over tightened granny that can't arch versus fall out of the harness granny if those were my only two choices.

Luckily those aren't my only two choices, but I get what you are saying.




likearock  (D 24640)

Jun 5, 2012, 4:27 AM
Post #142 of 260 (1496 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

TI in question has 9k jumps, 3k tandems, and never had an issue with a student before this one.

This TI is in fact one of the most complete and completely competent parachutists I have known in my almost 40 years of parachuting.

So, Robin, what is the reason for only hooking up the passenger at 2 attachment points? Is there any possible explanation other than he just fucking forgot?


DougH  (D License)

Jun 5, 2012, 5:04 AM
Post #143 of 260 (1474 views)
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Re: [likearock] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

You don't simply "forget" to connect the uppers, you have to forget to do multiple things in order for that to happen:

1. Forget to tell your students on the ground the hook-up procedure.

I tell my students what happens at hook-up, and what they should expect to hear from me. I tell them each connection point that I am connecting. I have them ask me if they are connected.

2. Not having a personal rule to do a full harness, connection, and handle check before the door opens.

So not only did you forget to connect the uppers, but you have to be piss poor with your procedures on multiple jumps.

This is tandem course candidate level stuff here!

Check them and call it out to your students: Legs straps (& b12's if equipped), Belly Band, Chest Strap, Shoulders, Upper Connections Attached, Lower Connections Tight and Locked, Drogue, Primary, Secondary, Cutaway, Reserve, RSL. After which I tell the student that the equipment is ready. "Are you ready to skydive?"

Every single tandem jump, zero exceptions. If you can't do that on every single jump you shouldn't be jumping with peoples' loved ones. You aren't a professional, no matter how many tandems you have under your belt.

There really is zero excuse for this shit. No amount of fatigue, DZ atmosphere, etc etc can excuse leaving the plane with a student that isn't properly harnessed, leaving without having all connections attached, or leaving without doing a full equipment check before exit.


(This post was edited by DougH on Jun 5, 2012, 5:08 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Jun 5, 2012, 5:56 AM
Post #144 of 260 (1439 views)
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Re: [DougH] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Check them and call it out to your students: Legs straps (& b12's if equipped), Belly Band, Chest Strap, Shoulders, Upper Connections Attached, Lower Connections Tight and Locked, Drogue, Primary, Secondary, Cutaway, Reserve, RSL. After which I tell the student that the equipment is ready. "Are you ready to skydive?"
^This.
Every time.
No exceptions.

It's somewhat surprising the confidence it instills in most students when we go through the checks just like this too.
I usually say "NOW we're ready to skydive!" - same thing, only different.
Cool


Skyflyer3  (D License)

Jun 5, 2012, 6:05 AM
Post #145 of 260 (1428 views)
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Re: [likearock] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

TI in question has 9k jumps, 3k tandems, and never had an issue with a student before this one.

This TI is in fact one of the most complete and completely competent parachutists I have known in my almost 40 years of parachuting.

So, Robin, what is the reason for only hooking up the passenger at 2 attachment points? Is there any possible explanation other than he just fucking forgot?

The laterals were connected. You can see in the video that they are clearly connected. It was just a horribly loose harness and the leg straps sliding down to her knees while fighting her in the door.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jun 5, 2012, 6:14 AM
Post #146 of 260 (1421 views)
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Re: [Skyflyer3] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Add to that the lack of the back strap.
The one dangling during the boarding.
The one smacking the instructor during freefall.
Criminal negligence IMO.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Jun 5, 2012, 6:28 AM
Post #147 of 260 (1408 views)
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Re: [normiss] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Check them and call it out to your students: Legs straps (& b12's if equipped), Belly Band, Chest Strap, Shoulders, Upper Connections Attached, Lower Connections Tight and Locked, Drogue, Primary, Secondary, Cutaway, Reserve, RSL. After which I tell the student that the equipment is ready. "Are you ready to skydive?"
^This. Every time. No exceptions. It's somewhat surprising the confidence it instills in most students when we go through the checks just like this too. I usually say "NOW we're ready to skydive!" - same thing, only different. Cool
it's called a checklist.... and aviators have been using one, since wilbur and orville... I'm no tandem instructor, but have seen MANY come and go....If ya' can't envision and then USE such a checklist.... then you might ought to just stay a "fun jumper" and leave the REAL work to the guys/gals who are a bit more disciplined... no?????


(This post was edited by jimmytavino on Jun 5, 2012, 9:16 AM)


TheCaptain  (D License)

Jun 5, 2012, 6:58 AM
Post #148 of 260 (1382 views)
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Re: [normiss] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Add to that the lack of the back strap.
The one dangling during the boarding.
The one smacking the instructor during freefall.
Criminal negligence IMO.

The backstrap is the only thing that kept her from falling completely out of the harness. The back strap is around the back of her neck.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jun 5, 2012, 7:19 AM
Post #149 of 260 (1360 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Add to that the lack of the back strap.
The one dangling during the boarding.
The one smacking the instructor during freefall.
Criminal negligence IMO.

The backstrap is the only thing that kept her from falling completely out of the harness. The back strap is around the back of her neck.

You sure that is not a diagonal?

There does seem to be a loose strap coming from the left hip junction and flapping up past the Primary/Instructor Drogue Release Handle.

The Student Warning panel is so distorted over her left shoulder that I think the right Diagonal is what might have saved her.

Matt


-ftp-

Jun 5, 2012, 7:25 AM
Post #150 of 260 (1358 views)
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Re: [Skyflyer3] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

TI in question has 9k jumps, 3k tandems, and never had an issue with a student before this one.

This TI is in fact one of the most complete and completely competent parachutists I have known in my almost 40 years of parachuting.

So, Robin, what is the reason for only hooking up the passenger at 2 attachment points? Is there any possible explanation other than he just fucking forgot?

The laterals were connected. You can see in the video that they are clearly connected. It was just a horribly loose harness and the leg straps sliding down to her knees while fighting her in the door.

JUST SPECULATION!

I think he might be referring to this
http://www.youtube.com/...9kfPrW9olbM&NR=1

again, just guessing.


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