Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Bad Tandem

 

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coconutmonkey  (D 24601)

May 27, 2012, 5:46 AM
Post #76 of 260 (3731 views)
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Re: [jclalor] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

'Good Morning America' just played the incident video and the lady was very kind in saying that the TM didn't force her out but acknowledged that he did give her a bit of a nudge.
Still, the video has gone viral and is front page Yahoo! news now. Folks have to remember that this kind of action impacts the whole community, much like a poor Demo performance.


danornan  (D 11308)

May 27, 2012, 6:13 AM
Post #77 of 260 (3718 views)
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Re: [coconutmonkey] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Imagine if she had fallen out of the harness and we just had the video without her commentary?


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

May 27, 2012, 7:07 AM
Post #78 of 260 (3678 views)
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Re: [danornan] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

If she had fallen out I doubt we would have ever seen the video.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 27, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #79 of 260 (3587 views)
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Re: [Maksimsf] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Thoroughly tasteless ... and totally honest!


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
May 27, 2012, 8:20 PM
Post #80 of 260 (3327 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Robin, worldwide tandem fatality numbers are approaching or have exceeded 100 at this point.


tdog  (D 28800)

May 28, 2012, 7:33 AM
Post #81 of 260 (3074 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Most DZs in the US have a policy that once the plane is taxiiing down the runway, the student has spent all of their money. It's explained to them ahead of time, and reinforced if they seem hesitant any at point before boarding the aircraft.

Every DZ I have worked at has always offered some consession to a jumper who backed out in the door. It was typically a chance to jump again for slot cost, or sometimes no cost at all.

Robert Feldman, in his talk at the 2007 PIA meeting strongly advised that a DZ/DZO never have or enforce a no-refund policy, even if the customer flew to altitude, and should not use it as motivation to get someone to jump in any way shape or form. He basically said the greed over $200 could cause millions of dollars of liability if the injured/killed skydiver or their family could convince the judge and jury that the injured party was coerced to jump in any way.


(This post was edited by tdog on May 28, 2012, 7:35 AM)


skyrider  (D 14710)

May 28, 2012, 11:04 AM
Post #82 of 260 (2958 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Someone grab that video for posterity before it dissapears

I was just about to (after watching it once 1st) - and just moments ago, when re-clicking the link, find it has been re-set as "PRIVATE".

Not to worry, it has been put up a few other places!
http://www.boomclips.com/...rong/Extreme_videos/


skyrider  (D 14710)

May 28, 2012, 11:31 AM
Post #83 of 260 (2931 views)
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Re: [tdog] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Most DZs in the US have a policy that once the plane is taxiiing down the runway, the student has spent all of their money. It's explained to them ahead of time, and reinforced if they seem hesitant any at point before boarding the aircraft.

Every DZ I have worked at has always offered some consession to a jumper who backed out in the door. It was typically a chance to jump again for slot cost, or sometimes no cost at all.

Robert Feldman, in his talk at the 2007 PIA meeting strongly advised that a DZ/DZO never have or enforce a no-refund policy, even if the customer flew to altitude, and should not use it as motivation to get someone to jump in any way shape or form. He basically said the greed over $200 could cause millions of dollars of liability if the injured/killed skydiver or their family could convince the judge and jury that the injured party was coerced to jump in any way.

Very goood point, after all, when AFF students or Tandems get winded out and have to land, we don;t charge them for the next jump...that should include anyone that simply chickens out....


LDiCosimo  (B License)

May 28, 2012, 12:46 PM
Post #84 of 260 (2864 views)
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Re: [coconutmonkey] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the lady was very kind in saying that the TM didn't force her out but acknowledged that he did give her a bit of a nudge..

This statement i'm guessing is due to a private settlement with a confidentiality clause


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

May 28, 2012, 1:45 PM
Post #85 of 260 (2812 views)
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Re: [seaweedknees] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You think he could hold onto her during deployment? Not a chance, it was luck that her legs were hooked or her arm was caught or something that saved her from falling out completely.
Luck played a role here, but let's not forget the lever effects can play a role. For example, it may require less than 10-pounds-force to keep a knee bent to 'keep it hooked' on a strap (holding up a 170 pound weight).
....We already know 3-ring releases uses lever action. A little, minor force from a string keeps the tiny ring closed on a 3-ring release. Let it go and the small ring levers through the middle ring, whch then levers out of the big ring to release your riser from your rig... The puny string (held down through ring by the cutaway cable) holding a 3-ring release, doesn't need to hold a force of over 400 pounds (tandem opening shock), thanks to the lever effect. I'm sure Bill Booth could explain 3-ring action better, but he'll /definitely/ explain the "lever effect" that 3-ring release take advantage of. Also, a bent knee hanging from a loose strap, exercises "lever physics" too, that may very well determine whether it slips or stays in.

I'm academically speaking, of course. The instructor's actions are inexcusable, but are we saying trying to help contain the woman is useless? The instructor should give up right away after realizing a stupidly terrible/fatal strap mistake? I think not. From an academic viewpoint, I think it may have become worse if the instructor hadn't tried hard to keep her on. (and maybe even videographer scientifically did indeed help, subject to dispute) Watching the video, the lever pivot point was changed (the strap was seemed to have been moved slightly higher up above the knee - that's the lever pivot point, if you know physics) However minor/academic it may have been, the lever effect cannot be underestimated. Just 1 or 2 pounds of extra force keeping a knee bent, may have been everything that was needed to keep the woman from falling out.

A change in the lever pivot point (such as a strap moving half an inch higher up the leg) would scientifically have made all the difference if the woman was only barely hanging on, given the woman's possible limited strength in keeping a knee bent. The very minor pivot position change (strap position along legs/knee), may have made it easier for the woman to keep the knee bent.

Luck played a large role, though!


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on May 28, 2012, 2:09 PM)


robinheid  (D 5533)

May 28, 2012, 3:25 PM
Post #86 of 260 (2698 views)
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Re: [grimmie] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I did.Mad

And... how did it go?

In reply to:
Check your stats on world wide tandem fatlities.Frown

Why?

44
Cool


(This post was edited by robinheid on May 28, 2012, 3:26 PM)


robinheid  (D 5533)

May 28, 2012, 3:56 PM
Post #87 of 260 (2668 views)
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Re: [format] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Actually, the video IS great for the sport. I think it should be required viewing for all prospective tandem instructors. I doubt the video is going to scare away anyone who's been thinking about jumping...

I showed the video to a 80 year old lady, who's been waiting to jump for two years now. She's been very excited to see it and wants to jump now even more then ever. She knows exactly whom with and is patient accordingly.
Coincidently, that TM uses 'Y' strap AND a knees_lifter strap for landing. He doesn't want cessna for her and not less than 4kts winds.

+1

This was the root problem with the tandem in question. She was treated as "just another tandem" when she clearly needed to be handled as what Jim Wallace calls a "fragile package." (For those of you unacquainted with Jim, he has 21,000+ jumps, the vast majority of which are tandem and AFFI jumps, including at least a couple of hundred tandems with paraplegics, quadraplegics, 80-95-year-olds, and multiple others with injuries/diseases and/or disabilities that make them "fragile packages.")

Jim has a very specific set of practices and procedures for his fragile packages and had this tandem been treated as such, we wouldn't be reading page after page of ill-informed whuffoesque commentary about a tandem that almost went horribly wrong but still ended up as a no-injury landing and a satisfied customer outcome. (As the stories report,she gave the TI a tip on-site and sent him a thank you note for saving her life).

44
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robinheid  (D 5533)

May 28, 2012, 4:03 PM
Post #88 of 260 (2660 views)
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Re: [Skyflyer3] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
+ 1,000,000

Well said!
It was pure luck this didn't end with a fatality.

It was not pure luck this didn't end in a fatality, but Lady Luck sure kicked the Reaper's butt that day at least.

Now if we can just get all the whuffos on this thread to start thinking about the systemic issues underlying this incident and the lessons that can be learned from it by all TIs and all DZs, then we'll be getting somewhere.

44
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kuai43  (C License)

May 28, 2012, 4:06 PM
Post #89 of 260 (2656 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just 1 or 2 pounds of extra force keeping a knee bent, may have been everything that was needed to keep the woman from falling out.

Luck played a large role, though!

I'll argue it was just as much her cross-arm grip on her harness verticals that kept her in. Tough bird.
She possibly had to have held that for the entire (extended) canopy ride.


robinheid  (D 5533)

May 28, 2012, 4:16 PM
Post #90 of 260 (2642 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Robin, worldwide tandem fatality numbers are approaching or have exceeded 100 at this point.


Thanks, PhreeZone. That is more than I thought -- and specifically why I put that "(?)" after my estimate because I wasn't sure.

Of course, only about half of those fatalities are students, aren't they?

Wink

And when you calculate the percentage for 20 or 50 -- or even 100 -- out of the estimated 30 million tandems made during the past 30 years worldwide, I think you gotta go three or four places past the decimal point before that difference shows up.

44
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robinheid  (D 5533)

May 28, 2012, 4:44 PM
Post #91 of 260 (2615 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You think he could hold onto her during deployment? Not a chance, it was luck that her legs were hooked or her arm was caught or something that saved her from falling out completely.
Luck played a role here, but let's not forget the lever effects can play a role. For example, it may require less than 10-pounds-force to keep a knee bent to 'keep it hooked' on a strap (holding up a 170 pound weight).
....We already know 3-ring releases uses lever action. A little, minor force from a string keeps the tiny ring closed on a 3-ring release. Let it go and the small ring levers through the middle ring, whch then levers out of the big ring to release your riser from your rig... The puny string (held down through ring by the cutaway cable) holding a 3-ring release, doesn't need to hold a force of over 400 pounds (tandem opening shock), thanks to the lever effect. I'm sure Bill Booth could explain 3-ring action better, but he'll /definitely/ explain the "lever effect" that 3-ring release take advantage of. Also, a bent knee hanging from a loose strap, exercises "lever physics" too, that may very well determine whether it slips or stays in.

I'm academically speaking, of course. The instructor's actions are inexcusable, but are we saying trying to help contain the woman is useless? The instructor should give up right away after realizing a stupidly terrible/fatal strap mistake? I think not. From an academic viewpoint, I think it may have become worse if the instructor hadn't tried hard to keep her on. (and maybe even videographer scientifically did indeed help, subject to dispute) Watching the video, the lever pivot point was changed (the strap was seemed to have been moved slightly higher up above the knee - that's the lever pivot point, if you know physics) However minor/academic it may have been, the lever effect cannot be underestimated. Just 1 or 2 pounds of extra force keeping a knee bent, may have been everything that was needed to keep the woman from falling out.

A change in the lever pivot point (such as a strap moving half an inch higher up the leg) would scientifically have made all the difference if the woman was only barely hanging on, given the woman's possible limited strength in keeping a knee bent. The very minor pivot position change (strap position along legs/knee), may have made it easier for the woman to keep the knee bent.

Luck played a large role, though!

+1

There were in fact many things the TI did in freefall (and under canopy too) that helped Lady Luck win an overtime victory over the Reaper on this one, and the points you bring up were among them.

This particular factor (among several) was specifically what I was talking about in my "stupid" comment above that the TI solved a never-before-seen problem on the fly. He kept working the problem and kept them balanced on the razor's edge of disaster until he landed them both without injury, on the DZ.

In so doing, his misadventure-with-a-happy-ending is a really really important lesson for everyone, whether they are a TI or not: never never ever give up.

This TI did not give up for one moment until after they landed, and you can see how totally spent he was from the effort.

The same goes for the 80-year-old lady, who couldn't even see what was going on; she never quit for one moment either.

Yeah yeah yeah, several serious mistakes and misjudgments were made up to and including the decision to launch, but after they were up to their eyeballs in the poop, the TI and his 80-year-old passenger never gave up and would no doubt be among the finalists for the 2011 Never Give Up Award if there was such a thing.

Thanks for your intelligent and non-whuffo contribution to this thread, mdrejhon. Nice to see someone who engages his brain before wiggling his fingers.

44
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(This post was edited by robinheid on May 28, 2012, 4:47 PM)
Attachments: never give up.jpg (88.0 KB)


jdobleman  (D 7790)

May 28, 2012, 10:32 PM
Post #92 of 260 (2432 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I talked to the TI shortly (several days) after this incident. After he explained what happened to the DZO he was asked why he hadn't used the handicapped harness, which has the Y-strap. He replied, "What handicapped harness?" There was a communication problem here.

Also, during the canopy ride, the TI had the lady hold on to his chest strap with both hands while he kept one hand on her and controlled the canopy one handed. He was definitely spent when he got to the ground.

Despite what led up to this situation, he did a masterful job in getting her safely back to the ground.

madjohn, AFF-I, Tandem-I


nigel99  (D 1)

May 28, 2012, 10:44 PM
Post #93 of 260 (2423 views)
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Re: [jdobleman] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I talked to the TI shortly (several days) after this incident. After he explained what happened to the DZO he was asked why he hadn't used the handicapped harness, which has the Y-strap. He replied, "What handicapped harness?" There was a communication problem here.

Also, during the canopy ride, the TI had the lady hold on to his chest strap with both hands while he kept one hand on her and controlled the canopy one handed. He was definitely spent when he got to the ground.

Despite what led up to this situation, he did a masterful job in getting her safely back to the ground.

madjohn, AFF-I, Tandem-I

If she was holding onto HIS cheststrap she must have descended upside down? Basically she must have had her face in his crotch (not trying to be funny).

Does the guy still do tandems?


hopnpopper0429  (C 36648)

May 29, 2012, 6:41 AM
Post #94 of 260 (2237 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

There was a response earlier in this thread that his Tandem rating has been revoked.

I can't believe this video has gone viral. Its now on the front page of Boston local news www.whdh.com and www.cnn.com.

Instructors and experienced jumpers got to be careful of what they do on video these days cause things can be misunderstood and a bad image of our sport goes viral and hits the headlines all over the internet.

One of my Facebook friends has posted this video and wrote "this is the reason I'll never go skydiving". Of course I know its not the reason, but now it looks like this kind of thing happens every day and it gives him an opportunity to use this as an excuse and spread additional word about this incident to people he knows.


livendive  (D 21415)

May 29, 2012, 8:35 AM
Post #95 of 260 (2105 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Something that bothered me was the method used to move his student into the door. As her legs became pinned underneath her, the TI doesn't seem to realize it. That and the fact that (as seen in the door before exit) the harness is clearly not adjusted properly.

How do you TI's deal with fragile elderly people? While this particular jump is screwed up beyond belief ,it's not that uncommon for people in their late 60's and older to do tandems. They aren't that flexible so how do you deal with them 'properly' in the aircraft?

I've taken 95, a couple 90s, and a handful of 85's. Actually the 95 was also one of my 90's, and last I saw him he asked whether I'd be available next year for his 100th, but he's a breeze, fitter than many 60 year olds. The older women seem a little tougher, just because they seem to more commonly have a less than ideal weight distribution, but my approach is the same. I want reasonable weather and enough room on the plane to accomodate any physical limitations, e.g. seated exits or even seated climb to altitude next to the door. I always check the status of their hearing (having taken one elderly gent who surprised me by being completely deaf under canopy...turned out he'd been reading my lips on the ground), also any shoulder, hip, or knee trouble. I also don't give them the benefit of the doubt on landing, and just rotate underneath for safety.

My favorite types of tandems require more time and work than average, but the elderly and handicapped are far and away the most rewarding, regardless of pay. Those honestly too terrified to solo who conquer their fears on a tandem are pretty cool too, even if they do require some bad jokes or coddling to help them through it.

Blues,
Dave


(This post was edited by livendive on May 29, 2012, 8:36 AM)


DougH  (D License)

May 29, 2012, 12:14 PM
Post #96 of 260 (1922 views)
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Re: [jdobleman] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I talked to the TI shortly (several days) after this incident. After he explained what happened to the DZO he was asked why he hadn't used the handicapped harness, which has the Y-strap. He replied, "What handicapped harness?" There was a communication problem here.

Also, during the canopy ride, the TI had the lady hold on to his chest strap with both hands while he kept one hand on her and controlled the canopy one handed. He was definitely spent when he got to the ground.

Despite what led up to this situation, he did a masterful job in getting her safely back to the ground.

madjohn, AFF-I, Tandem-I

Seriously?

Did he explain why he did such a poor job of adjusting the harness?

He managed to salvage a bad situation that he alone created. It would have been better to avoid it in the first place.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

May 29, 2012, 12:55 PM
Post #97 of 260 (1873 views)
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Re: [hopnpopper0429] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There was a response earlier in this thread that his Tandem rating has been revoked.

I can't believe this video has gone viral. Its now on the front page of Boston local news www.whdh.com and www.cnn.com.

Instructors and experienced jumpers got to be careful of what they do on video these days cause things can be misunderstood and a bad image of our sport goes viral and hits the headlines all over the internet.Wrong, Instructors need to do it right! PERIOD, end of story.

One of my Facebook friends has posted this video and wrote "this is the reason I'll never go skydiving". Of course I know its not the reason, but now it looks like this kind of thing happens every day and it gives him an opportunity to use this as an excuse and spread additional word about this incident to people he knows.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

May 29, 2012, 1:33 PM
Post #98 of 260 (1819 views)
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Re: [DougH] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I talked to the TI shortly (several days) after this incident. After he explained what happened to the DZO he was asked why he hadn't used the handicapped harness, which has the Y-strap. He replied, "What handicapped harness?" There was a communication problem here.

Also, during the canopy ride, the TI had the lady hold on to his chest strap with both hands while he kept one hand on her and controlled the canopy one handed. He was definitely spent when he got to the ground.

Despite what led up to this situation, he did a masterful job in getting her safely back to the ground.

madjohn, AFF-I, Tandem-I

Seriously?

Did he explain why he did such a poor job of adjusting the harness?

He managed to salvage a bad situation that he alone created. It would have been better to avoid it in the first place.

Thank you. I couldn't agree more. "Hero Status" is no place for this TI.






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