Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Bad Tandem

 

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kuai43  (C License)

May 24, 2012, 10:00 PM
Post #26 of 260 (4289 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Bless that lady. If she hadn't been holding on to the verticals for dear life, she would have been gone.
Tough bird.


Marisan  (E 123)

May 24, 2012, 10:31 PM
Post #27 of 260 (4277 views)
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Re: [kuai43] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

That was horrifying!

I think that, after exit, they were all fighting to liveUnsure


Falko  (D 10613)

May 25, 2012, 5:10 AM
Post #28 of 260 (4067 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This was posted on Utoob, this week.
In my world this IS an Incident.
http://www.youtube.com/...ed&v=tZF9GwgCVfY

I'm not one to call for Lawyers whenever something goes bad. Having watched the video, I must say:
- The TM should have been sued all the freaking way by that passenger.
- The TM should have been stripped by the USPA of both his licenses (TM and skydivers).
- The TM should have been kicked off the DZ for good, he's lucky he didn't get punched in the face by that Ladys husband or family after they watched the video.
- Through his negligent and aggressive behaviour, he almost killed her. It was pure dumb luck that she did not fall out of the harness on canopy opening.

I mean, seriously, fellow skydivers, there is really no excuse for that kind of fuckup. She clearly did not want to jump, and don't give me the "passengers grab stuff" excuse... he grabbed and forced her hands at least 3 times. And then went for an intentionally unstable exit. What we've seen here was total abuse of power, bordering on assault. If she had been killed, and that video were shown in court, this TM would have gone to jail!!

I wouldn't want to share an airplane with that guy, ever!!
Not sure about the videoman, didn't he help peel off one hand?


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

May 25, 2012, 5:54 AM
Post #29 of 260 (4023 views)
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Re: Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

It's now hit the press. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...ing-tandem-dive.html


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

May 25, 2012, 6:27 AM
Post #30 of 260 (3977 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone posted that this was an old incident. Looks like it is not.


bdazel  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 6:32 AM
Post #31 of 260 (3974 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

The incident happened a year ago. It is just now receiving mass attention because the video was only recently publicly posted.


fcajump  (D 15598)

May 25, 2012, 6:56 AM
Post #32 of 260 (3939 views)
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Re: [Maksimsf] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

One photo and I don't need/want to see the video. Frown

Glad they're both OK.
Hope the TM (whatever else he faces) decides to refrain from taking anyone else.

In the common rush to get the next one up/out/down, I think too many instructors forget that this needs to be safe/positive experience for the student. In our concern for the spot and not "forcing" a second pass, we forget too easily what its like to stand in the door the first time.

Get the rig right or don't go.
I've helpped the "gripper" who wanted to go, but I have NEVER (and would agrue against anyone) forcing someone to exit when they say "NO".

No tricks, no force, not coersion. Either they exit with me by their own choice, or we sit down. This is their jump, I'm just goin' along to keep it safe.

JW


feuergnom  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 6:59 AM
Post #33 of 260 (3930 views)
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Re: [bdazel] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

i have been told that this vid was shown a skydive expo at the instructors meeting. attendants were told not to film it off the screen cause nobody wanted it to end up on youtube...
and yes, tjhis video is a year old...

my bottom line:
the whole things starts with sloppy initial training of tandem "instructors" - the whole instrucor thing uspa implemented is pretty worthless if something like this is actually happening. better to have a handpicked tandem-master that a jerk like that with an "I"-rating

next: even with the best initial training no I/E will change DZ-culture. If its cool and normal for longtime Joe Cool-"TI"s to board the plane with dangling harnesses and ride all the way up just to fasten everything up a minute before exit - well there your good intentions go out the door... and I know what I have been seeing the last ten years all over the place. And I am more than lucky to have the opposite attitude hammered into my head...

someone mentioned the y-mod: as much as I disliked having to use it I see why it was put into place: to protect unknowing students/passengers from the average droguechucking imbecile Mad

do I have a suggestion how this could be solved? I know you won't like it: it's unannounced controls by the manufacturers of tandem gear if their rules are followed ( can anybody spell ramp-check?) - you are boarding the plane with a pax noit jumpready: There goes your rating... end of discussion, cause that is where the cash comes into the dz.




Abedy  (D 10153)

May 25, 2012, 7:47 AM
Post #35 of 260 (3850 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I was disgusted to read some of the comments. Obviously youngsters of the Facebook generation who click "Like it" on gory pics of accidents... MadMadMad


Abedy  (D 10153)

May 25, 2012, 8:04 AM
Post #36 of 260 (3823 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If its cool and normal for longtime Joe Cool-"TI"s to board the plane with dangling harnesses [..]

Just look at the pics attached. The second one shows the dangling harness on the old lady, poor enough. BTW: Why the heck does her TI carry her cane? I bet he didn't take it with them into the plane so whom did he give it? Anyway...
Pic 1 is even more annoying to me. It's a rule at our DZ that the students - once they leave the hangar - are never to be left unattended. Have a look: There's a young girl with a pax harness (and also in a not really suitable outfit - i. e. no jumpsuit) that is completely on her own. You can see two other students not attended/guided by their TIs. I'd rather be told "This is not ConAir, please do not guide/carry your pax by grabbing his chest strap even when standing next to the door and rather grab one of the laterals" but to leave a student alone with the aircraft (and the prop running) close-by.

Just for German-speaking readers: I wonder when this shit is gonna hit the RTL/SAT.1 fan Crazy


(This post was edited by Abedy on May 25, 2012, 8:13 AM)
Attachments: Boarding-NOT-Safety1.gif (120 KB)
  Boarding-NOT-Safety2.gif (202 KB)


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

May 25, 2012, 8:17 AM
Post #37 of 260 (3801 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just look at the pics attached. The second one shows the dangling harness on the old lady, poor enough. BTW: Why the heck does her TI carry her cane? I bet he didn't take it with them into the plane so whom did he give it? Anyway...

If you watch closely, he is "walking funny with the cane", probably pretending to someone that he is an elderly person, just for fun.




Scrumpot  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 8:38 AM
Post #39 of 260 (3756 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree.

Anyone else happen to notice as well, at the very end of this video, it begins to cut to yet ANOTHER tandem moving to the door? ...Take a look at the back of that rig / the Drogue "stowage" on that one as well! Shocked


NoShitThereIWas  (D 25347)

May 25, 2012, 8:46 AM
Post #40 of 260 (3738 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I just saw the video for the first time. I was truly horrified. I am glad she made it! I am angry after watching it. Agreed that the TI should not be allowed to skydive again. Ground that idiot! It looks like "Slow-Die" has some work to do on their safety procedures all around. That is just plain scary!


fcajump  (D 15598)

May 25, 2012, 9:15 AM
Post #41 of 260 (3679 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Unfortunatly Tandem is seen as the cash-cow that keeps the lights on at many DZ's. But that can dry up quick if we don't take safety seriously.

Many here (USA) and elsewhere have poo-poo'ed the UK model of gear checks before loading. Yet, a basic "ready to exit" gear check would keep this sh!t from happening. I saw the cheepest, penny-pincher DZO ground his plane pull every one out and chew the asses for 20 minuts one day for an instructor running to board with leg straps dangling. For all the critisizm of his DZ, no one got on his planes unless they were ready to exit.

My other suggestion would be a quick additional segment added to the manditory (for Vector/Sigma DZ's) Bill Booth "Intro to Tandem" video that shows the tandem student two things:
1. what a loose v/s snug harness looks like.
2. where the 4 primary connections are.
And a you are NOT "ready to skydive" unless these things are correct.

I would also argue that no TI should exit unless their student agrees that they are "ready to skydive."
They say "no" you sit the fuck down.
They paid their money, they may know something you don't know (loose harness, chicken out, splinter in their eye), its their choice to say NO.
You want to circle once and give them a chance to explain why they said 'no' and a chance to correct the problem and try again, great! Good costomer service, but that's your DZO's choice. Want to issue them a refund if they balk, OK... again your choice.

But if they say "NO", that's their choice.

(sorry, really sore subject with me that this video only made worse)

[/rant]

JW


(This post was edited by fcajump on May 25, 2012, 9:17 AM)


dorbie

May 25, 2012, 9:36 AM
Post #42 of 260 (3639 views)
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Re: [kuai43] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

As a tandem videographer, what do you do here? Unsure

Nothing. That includes finishing a version of the vid with music. Really? Polishing a turd?

That's what I was thinking. WTF, they edited a near fatality with the DZ footage and music.


(This post was edited by dorbie on May 25, 2012, 11:00 AM)


hopnpopper0429  (C 36648)

May 25, 2012, 11:17 AM
Post #43 of 260 (3525 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

So at what point does an instructor make the call whether to leave the plane or land with it in such a scenario?

I remember not being too scared on my 2 tandems. But when I did my AFF jumps, I was terrified on the first few. I couldn't get myself to leave the plane even though it didn't cross my mind to back out of jumping. So I'd guess she wanted to jump but her instinct was telling her to grab onto anything she could.

I was also thinking while watching the video whether the TI was confident about this woman staying in her harness right before he went for his main or was he just pulling and hoping for the best.


linestretch  (D 21060)

May 25, 2012, 11:42 AM
Post #44 of 260 (3487 views)
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Re: [hopnpopper0429] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

So after looking at the article, you can clearly see that the side connectors are attached. I was thinking they weren't. Was the harness just hanging on her super loose?....and the side connectors not tightened? Still pretty friggin sketchy to watch.
Attachments: article-2149774-13498844000005DC-186_964x732.jpg (90.3 KB)


fifthfloyd  (A 49914)

May 25, 2012, 1:21 PM
Post #45 of 260 (3365 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh goody. Now if you google "tandem skydive goes wrong" these news articles are the first thing to pop up in my search results. Great for the sport.

Like most jumpers I try to get friends and family to give it a shot. I'm sure as heck not putting this on my facebook wall for them to see.

Not that there isn't value in the lesson learned here, for TI's (which I of course am not), but I wish this hadn't have gotten out like it did. All the TI's at my DZ are diligent and safe and I would and have trusted my loved ones with them. This incident pisses on their hard work to be safe TI's and keep skydiving a positive word in our own community. Mad


Marksman  (B 7)

May 25, 2012, 2:33 PM
Post #46 of 260 (3283 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

another source:

http://thechive.com/2012/05/25/sometimes-tandem-skydiving-goes-breathtakingly-wrong-video/


I edited this because of people thinking i made any type of political reference, which i did not and never intented to. Hate pm does not Solve anything. Btw, the jump simply did not had to go on.

post edited to remove political references


(This post was edited by Marksman on May 25, 2012, 4:17 PM)






gregpso  (Student)

May 25, 2012, 4:09 PM
Post #49 of 260 (3131 views)
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Re: [Marksman] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

As unoffical and self proclaimed president of the Tandem passengers Association of Victoria (australia).. done 19 tandems as a passenger (Do not even ask) .. for once I am lost for words.

I will just say thanks to all the tandem masters and CI Don who looked after me at Nagambie (18) and One at Gold Coast. One forgets how much responsibility they have and I appreciate their efforts with a nuffy like me. watching that video was truly horrifing !!!!!

Greg W


feuergnom  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 4:19 PM
Post #50 of 260 (3110 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unfortunatly Tandem is seen as the cash-cow that keeps the lights on at many DZ's. But that can dry up quick if we don't take safety seriously.

Many here (USA) and elsewhere have poo-poo'ed the UK model of gear checks before loading. Yet, a basic "ready to exit" gear check would keep this sh!t from happening. I saw the cheepest, penny-pincher DZO ground his plane pull every one out and chew the asses for 20 minuts one day for an instructor running to board with leg straps dangling. For all the critisizm of his DZ, no one got on his planes unless they were ready to exit.

My other suggestion would be a quick additional segment added to the manditory (for Vector/Sigma DZ's) Bill Booth "Intro to Tandem" video that shows the tandem student two things:
1. what a loose v/s snug harness looks like.
2. where the 4 primary connections are.
And a you are NOT "ready to skydive" unless these things are correct.

I would also argue that no TI should exit unless their student agrees that they are "ready to skydive."
They say "no" you sit the fuck down.
They paid their money, they may know something you don't know (loose harness, chicken out, splinter in their eye), its their choice to say NO.
You want to circle once and give them a chance to explain why they said 'no' and a chance to correct the problem and try again, great! Good costomer service, but that's your DZO's choice. Want to issue them a refund if they balk, OK... again your choice.

But if they say "NO", that's their choice.

(sorry, really sore subject with me that this video only made worse)

[/rant]

JW

thx for bringing my thoughts into proper language - hope the message is finally heard on a broad base


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