Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Bad Tandem

 


Squeak  (E 1313)

May 24, 2012, 7:46 AM
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Bad Tandem Can't Post

This was posted on Utoob, this week.
In my world this IS an Incident.
http://www.youtube.com/...ed&v=tZF9GwgCVfY


piisfish

May 24, 2012, 7:54 AM
Post #2 of 260 (15206 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

it is already discussed in the instructor forum Unsure


mircan  (D 32291)

May 24, 2012, 8:13 AM
Post #3 of 260 (15154 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Even though it`s almost a fatality, I thought that it belongs to instructors forum...


jtval  (D 26340)

May 24, 2012, 8:22 AM
Post #4 of 260 (15124 views)
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Re: [mircan] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont care where it ends up. Thanks for putting it here. I would not have seen it otherwise.\
I'll reserve my comments other than to say I'm not impressed at the lack of professionalism


propacker  (D 15030)

May 24, 2012, 9:17 AM
Post #5 of 260 (15012 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

it's been 15 minutes since I saw this, and my heart is still pounding and I still have the chills!! Unsure


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

May 24, 2012, 9:26 AM
Post #6 of 260 (14985 views)
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Re: [propacker] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Clearly, as the student is struggling in the door, the harness is not adjusted correctly. Wow. I'm with Propacker on this one... my heart is still pounding.

Also, I think this supports my theory that, "skydiving is an extream sport and is not for everyone"!!!! Glad everyone survived.

As a tandem videographer, what do you do here? Unsure


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on May 24, 2012, 9:28 AM)


kuai43  (C License)

May 24, 2012, 9:35 AM
Post #7 of 260 (14953 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

As a tandem videographer, what do you do here? Unsure

Nothing. That includes finishing a version of the vid with music. Really? Polishing a turd?


linestretch  (D 21060)

May 24, 2012, 11:57 AM
Post #8 of 260 (14730 views)
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Re: [kuai43] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

As a tandem videographer, what do you do here? Unsure

Nothing. That includes finishing a version of the vid with music. Really? Polishing a turd?

agreed! And I'm surprised this made it's way out. 'how can i set myself up for a lawsuit' comes to mind.....wow! There should have been 2 fired staff members there.


wmw999  (D 6296)

May 24, 2012, 12:04 PM
Post #9 of 260 (14711 views)
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Re: [linestretch] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Per the thread in Instructors the TM's rating was pulled a year ago; this incident happened over a year ago.

Wendy P.


pope  (D 19947)

May 24, 2012, 12:11 PM
Post #10 of 260 (14689 views)
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Re: [linestretch] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
<snip> There should have been 2 fired staff members there.

These guys work for Bill Dause. Chances are he's fired them both numerous times already. Just sayin... ;)


Kimblair13  (D 28140)

May 24, 2012, 12:47 PM
Post #11 of 260 (14594 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As a tandem videographer, what do you do here? Unsure

To me it looks like he was "helping" peel the ladies hands off the door...obviously it's not the video guys job to critique a harness job, but I would if it was THAT bad...and I'd leave my hands off the student.


feuergnom  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 1:47 PM
Post #12 of 260 (14466 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As a tandem videographer, what do you do here?


as stated in the other thread: make sure that my TI doesn't exit with a refusing passenger like that in the first place Unimpressed


normiss  (D 28356)

May 24, 2012, 2:20 PM
Post #13 of 260 (14395 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Not to defend this idiot in ANY form or fashion....but.

I have had more than a few grab anything and everything when we get in the door.
They're out of their element, off balance, in a harness that limits movement, and another human moving them around the whole time as well.
It's quite unsettling for even the bravest of students.
Usually a good "Hands on your harness!" will correct the hand positions...but not always.
I have exited with a few that wouldn't stop grabbing stuff, yet you know they want to jump.
"Hands off the door and we'll be fine" has worked for those.

I still say I'm not sure if she didn't WANT to exit or simply COULDN'T.
She looks to have been stuck in the squat. TI is fully over her preventing it as well.
Gotta love cramped aircraft sometimes.

But, again, he was clearly at fault for not fitting the harness correctly. He's very lucky she didn't come out of the harness.


Shotgun  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 3:51 PM
Post #14 of 260 (14214 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Does anyone know if this poor woman was injured in this incident?

What a horrible experience. Unsure


yoink

May 24, 2012, 3:56 PM
Post #15 of 260 (14203 views)
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Re: [normiss] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

HOLY FUCK! Shocked

Someone grab that video for posterity before it dissapears from YouTube...


(This post was edited by yoink on May 24, 2012, 4:10 PM)


Ishootu

May 24, 2012, 4:15 PM
Post #16 of 260 (14158 views)
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Re: [Shotgun] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

From what I remember of that day(happened long time ago) she got banged up pretty good on landing but no major injuries. Family brought her to hospital but we never heard anything further.


Scrumpot  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 5:18 PM
Post #17 of 260 (14058 views)
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Re: [yoink] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Someone grab that video for posterity before it dissapears

I was just about to (after watching it once 1st) - and just moments ago, when re-clicking the link, find it has been re-set as "PRIVATE".




format  (B 15348)

May 24, 2012, 6:03 PM
Post #19 of 260 (13978 views)
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Re: [Shotgun] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What a horrible experience. Unsure

There's a few good things:
- she lives to tell and live on
- there's a bold youtube video poster - WAY TO GO MAN!

and guys, this is The last thing to hide




sgoltry853  (No License)

May 24, 2012, 8:40 PM
Post #21 of 260 (13678 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

A malware-free version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ea6_4UXR40


oozzee  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 8:41 PM
Post #22 of 260 (13673 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

MMMMM....lets see...

Older lady needs very special care and attention...
Obviously poorly fitted harness ...
She baulks at door and makes situation worse...
The sensible move now is to go back to a seat....
Instructor persists and follows with intentional unstable exit...
READ THAT,,,intentional unstable exit...!!
What a fool..!!!




Maksimsf  (B 37743)

May 24, 2012, 9:00 PM
Post #24 of 260 (13644 views)
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Re: [carbonezone] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Frown


(This post was edited by Maksimsf on May 24, 2012, 9:02 PM)
Attachments: lodi.jpg (125 KB)


SgtDie

May 24, 2012, 9:36 PM
Post #25 of 260 (13590 views)
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Re: [Maksimsf] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Frown All I have to say is wow. Im sitting here in total shock. I'm just glad my tandom didn't end up like that.


kuai43  (C License)

May 24, 2012, 10:00 PM
Post #26 of 260 (4353 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Bless that lady. If she hadn't been holding on to the verticals for dear life, she would have been gone.
Tough bird.


Marisan  (E 123)

May 24, 2012, 10:31 PM
Post #27 of 260 (4341 views)
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Re: [kuai43] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

That was horrifying!

I think that, after exit, they were all fighting to liveUnsure


Falko  (D 10613)

May 25, 2012, 5:10 AM
Post #28 of 260 (4131 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This was posted on Utoob, this week.
In my world this IS an Incident.
http://www.youtube.com/...ed&v=tZF9GwgCVfY

I'm not one to call for Lawyers whenever something goes bad. Having watched the video, I must say:
- The TM should have been sued all the freaking way by that passenger.
- The TM should have been stripped by the USPA of both his licenses (TM and skydivers).
- The TM should have been kicked off the DZ for good, he's lucky he didn't get punched in the face by that Ladys husband or family after they watched the video.
- Through his negligent and aggressive behaviour, he almost killed her. It was pure dumb luck that she did not fall out of the harness on canopy opening.

I mean, seriously, fellow skydivers, there is really no excuse for that kind of fuckup. She clearly did not want to jump, and don't give me the "passengers grab stuff" excuse... he grabbed and forced her hands at least 3 times. And then went for an intentionally unstable exit. What we've seen here was total abuse of power, bordering on assault. If she had been killed, and that video were shown in court, this TM would have gone to jail!!

I wouldn't want to share an airplane with that guy, ever!!
Not sure about the videoman, didn't he help peel off one hand?


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

May 25, 2012, 5:54 AM
Post #29 of 260 (4087 views)
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Re: Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

It's now hit the press. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...ing-tandem-dive.html


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

May 25, 2012, 6:27 AM
Post #30 of 260 (4041 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone posted that this was an old incident. Looks like it is not.


bdazel  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 6:32 AM
Post #31 of 260 (4038 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

The incident happened a year ago. It is just now receiving mass attention because the video was only recently publicly posted.


fcajump  (D 15598)

May 25, 2012, 6:56 AM
Post #32 of 260 (4003 views)
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Re: [Maksimsf] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

One photo and I don't need/want to see the video. Frown

Glad they're both OK.
Hope the TM (whatever else he faces) decides to refrain from taking anyone else.

In the common rush to get the next one up/out/down, I think too many instructors forget that this needs to be safe/positive experience for the student. In our concern for the spot and not "forcing" a second pass, we forget too easily what its like to stand in the door the first time.

Get the rig right or don't go.
I've helpped the "gripper" who wanted to go, but I have NEVER (and would agrue against anyone) forcing someone to exit when they say "NO".

No tricks, no force, not coersion. Either they exit with me by their own choice, or we sit down. This is their jump, I'm just goin' along to keep it safe.

JW


feuergnom  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 6:59 AM
Post #33 of 260 (3994 views)
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Re: [bdazel] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

i have been told that this vid was shown a skydive expo at the instructors meeting. attendants were told not to film it off the screen cause nobody wanted it to end up on youtube...
and yes, tjhis video is a year old...

my bottom line:
the whole things starts with sloppy initial training of tandem "instructors" - the whole instrucor thing uspa implemented is pretty worthless if something like this is actually happening. better to have a handpicked tandem-master that a jerk like that with an "I"-rating

next: even with the best initial training no I/E will change DZ-culture. If its cool and normal for longtime Joe Cool-"TI"s to board the plane with dangling harnesses and ride all the way up just to fasten everything up a minute before exit - well there your good intentions go out the door... and I know what I have been seeing the last ten years all over the place. And I am more than lucky to have the opposite attitude hammered into my head...

someone mentioned the y-mod: as much as I disliked having to use it I see why it was put into place: to protect unknowing students/passengers from the average droguechucking imbecile Mad

do I have a suggestion how this could be solved? I know you won't like it: it's unannounced controls by the manufacturers of tandem gear if their rules are followed ( can anybody spell ramp-check?) - you are boarding the plane with a pax noit jumpready: There goes your rating... end of discussion, cause that is where the cash comes into the dz.




Abedy  (D 10153)

May 25, 2012, 7:47 AM
Post #35 of 260 (3914 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I was disgusted to read some of the comments. Obviously youngsters of the Facebook generation who click "Like it" on gory pics of accidents... MadMadMad


Abedy  (D 10153)

May 25, 2012, 8:04 AM
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Re: [feuergnom] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If its cool and normal for longtime Joe Cool-"TI"s to board the plane with dangling harnesses [..]

Just look at the pics attached. The second one shows the dangling harness on the old lady, poor enough. BTW: Why the heck does her TI carry her cane? I bet he didn't take it with them into the plane so whom did he give it? Anyway...
Pic 1 is even more annoying to me. It's a rule at our DZ that the students - once they leave the hangar - are never to be left unattended. Have a look: There's a young girl with a pax harness (and also in a not really suitable outfit - i. e. no jumpsuit) that is completely on her own. You can see two other students not attended/guided by their TIs. I'd rather be told "This is not ConAir, please do not guide/carry your pax by grabbing his chest strap even when standing next to the door and rather grab one of the laterals" but to leave a student alone with the aircraft (and the prop running) close-by.

Just for German-speaking readers: I wonder when this shit is gonna hit the RTL/SAT.1 fan Crazy


(This post was edited by Abedy on May 25, 2012, 8:13 AM)
Attachments: Boarding-NOT-Safety1.gif (120 KB)
  Boarding-NOT-Safety2.gif (202 KB)


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

May 25, 2012, 8:17 AM
Post #37 of 260 (3865 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just look at the pics attached. The second one shows the dangling harness on the old lady, poor enough. BTW: Why the heck does her TI carry her cane? I bet he didn't take it with them into the plane so whom did he give it? Anyway...

If you watch closely, he is "walking funny with the cane", probably pretending to someone that he is an elderly person, just for fun.




Scrumpot  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 8:38 AM
Post #39 of 260 (3820 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree.

Anyone else happen to notice as well, at the very end of this video, it begins to cut to yet ANOTHER tandem moving to the door? ...Take a look at the back of that rig / the Drogue "stowage" on that one as well! Shocked


NoShitThereIWas  (D 25347)

May 25, 2012, 8:46 AM
Post #40 of 260 (3802 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I just saw the video for the first time. I was truly horrified. I am glad she made it! I am angry after watching it. Agreed that the TI should not be allowed to skydive again. Ground that idiot! It looks like "Slow-Die" has some work to do on their safety procedures all around. That is just plain scary!


fcajump  (D 15598)

May 25, 2012, 9:15 AM
Post #41 of 260 (3743 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Unfortunatly Tandem is seen as the cash-cow that keeps the lights on at many DZ's. But that can dry up quick if we don't take safety seriously.

Many here (USA) and elsewhere have poo-poo'ed the UK model of gear checks before loading. Yet, a basic "ready to exit" gear check would keep this sh!t from happening. I saw the cheepest, penny-pincher DZO ground his plane pull every one out and chew the asses for 20 minuts one day for an instructor running to board with leg straps dangling. For all the critisizm of his DZ, no one got on his planes unless they were ready to exit.

My other suggestion would be a quick additional segment added to the manditory (for Vector/Sigma DZ's) Bill Booth "Intro to Tandem" video that shows the tandem student two things:
1. what a loose v/s snug harness looks like.
2. where the 4 primary connections are.
And a you are NOT "ready to skydive" unless these things are correct.

I would also argue that no TI should exit unless their student agrees that they are "ready to skydive."
They say "no" you sit the fuck down.
They paid their money, they may know something you don't know (loose harness, chicken out, splinter in their eye), its their choice to say NO.
You want to circle once and give them a chance to explain why they said 'no' and a chance to correct the problem and try again, great! Good costomer service, but that's your DZO's choice. Want to issue them a refund if they balk, OK... again your choice.

But if they say "NO", that's their choice.

(sorry, really sore subject with me that this video only made worse)

[/rant]

JW


(This post was edited by fcajump on May 25, 2012, 9:17 AM)


dorbie

May 25, 2012, 9:36 AM
Post #42 of 260 (3703 views)
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Re: [kuai43] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

As a tandem videographer, what do you do here? Unsure

Nothing. That includes finishing a version of the vid with music. Really? Polishing a turd?

That's what I was thinking. WTF, they edited a near fatality with the DZ footage and music.


(This post was edited by dorbie on May 25, 2012, 11:00 AM)


hopnpopper0429  (C 36648)

May 25, 2012, 11:17 AM
Post #43 of 260 (3589 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

So at what point does an instructor make the call whether to leave the plane or land with it in such a scenario?

I remember not being too scared on my 2 tandems. But when I did my AFF jumps, I was terrified on the first few. I couldn't get myself to leave the plane even though it didn't cross my mind to back out of jumping. So I'd guess she wanted to jump but her instinct was telling her to grab onto anything she could.

I was also thinking while watching the video whether the TI was confident about this woman staying in her harness right before he went for his main or was he just pulling and hoping for the best.


linestretch  (D 21060)

May 25, 2012, 11:42 AM
Post #44 of 260 (3551 views)
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Re: [hopnpopper0429] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

So after looking at the article, you can clearly see that the side connectors are attached. I was thinking they weren't. Was the harness just hanging on her super loose?....and the side connectors not tightened? Still pretty friggin sketchy to watch.
Attachments: article-2149774-13498844000005DC-186_964x732.jpg (90.3 KB)


fifthfloyd  (A 49914)

May 25, 2012, 1:21 PM
Post #45 of 260 (3429 views)
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Re: [mr2mk1g] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh goody. Now if you google "tandem skydive goes wrong" these news articles are the first thing to pop up in my search results. Great for the sport.

Like most jumpers I try to get friends and family to give it a shot. I'm sure as heck not putting this on my facebook wall for them to see.

Not that there isn't value in the lesson learned here, for TI's (which I of course am not), but I wish this hadn't have gotten out like it did. All the TI's at my DZ are diligent and safe and I would and have trusted my loved ones with them. This incident pisses on their hard work to be safe TI's and keep skydiving a positive word in our own community. Mad


Marksman  (B 7)

May 25, 2012, 2:33 PM
Post #46 of 260 (3347 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

another source:

http://thechive.com/2012/05/25/sometimes-tandem-skydiving-goes-breathtakingly-wrong-video/


I edited this because of people thinking i made any type of political reference, which i did not and never intented to. Hate pm does not Solve anything. Btw, the jump simply did not had to go on.

post edited to remove political references


(This post was edited by Marksman on May 25, 2012, 4:17 PM)






gregpso  (Student)

May 25, 2012, 4:09 PM
Post #49 of 260 (3195 views)
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Re: [Marksman] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

As unoffical and self proclaimed president of the Tandem passengers Association of Victoria (australia).. done 19 tandems as a passenger (Do not even ask) .. for once I am lost for words.

I will just say thanks to all the tandem masters and CI Don who looked after me at Nagambie (18) and One at Gold Coast. One forgets how much responsibility they have and I appreciate their efforts with a nuffy like me. watching that video was truly horrifing !!!!!

Greg W


feuergnom  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 4:19 PM
Post #50 of 260 (3174 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unfortunatly Tandem is seen as the cash-cow that keeps the lights on at many DZ's. But that can dry up quick if we don't take safety seriously.

Many here (USA) and elsewhere have poo-poo'ed the UK model of gear checks before loading. Yet, a basic "ready to exit" gear check would keep this sh!t from happening. I saw the cheepest, penny-pincher DZO ground his plane pull every one out and chew the asses for 20 minuts one day for an instructor running to board with leg straps dangling. For all the critisizm of his DZ, no one got on his planes unless they were ready to exit.

My other suggestion would be a quick additional segment added to the manditory (for Vector/Sigma DZ's) Bill Booth "Intro to Tandem" video that shows the tandem student two things:
1. what a loose v/s snug harness looks like.
2. where the 4 primary connections are.
And a you are NOT "ready to skydive" unless these things are correct.

I would also argue that no TI should exit unless their student agrees that they are "ready to skydive."
They say "no" you sit the fuck down.
They paid their money, they may know something you don't know (loose harness, chicken out, splinter in their eye), its their choice to say NO.
You want to circle once and give them a chance to explain why they said 'no' and a chance to correct the problem and try again, great! Good costomer service, but that's your DZO's choice. Want to issue them a refund if they balk, OK... again your choice.

But if they say "NO", that's their choice.

(sorry, really sore subject with me that this video only made worse)

[/rant]

JW

thx for bringing my thoughts into proper language - hope the message is finally heard on a broad base


format  (B 15348)

May 25, 2012, 4:39 PM
Post #51 of 260 (3327 views)
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Re: [fifthfloyd] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...but I wish this hadn't have gotten out like it did.

"Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead".
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)

Luckily all alive and no secrets.


LyraM45  (B 26378)

May 25, 2012, 8:58 PM
Post #52 of 260 (3179 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If its cool and normal for longtime Joe Cool-"TI"s to board the plane with dangling harnesses [..]

Just look at the pics attached. The second one shows the dangling harness on the old lady, poor enough. BTW: Why the heck does her TI carry her cane? I bet he didn't take it with them into the plane so whom did he give it? Anyway...
Pic 1 is even more annoying to me. It's a rule at our DZ that the students - once they leave the hangar - are never to be left unattended. Have a look: There's a young girl with a pax harness (and also in a not really suitable outfit - i. e. no jumpsuit) that is completely on her own. You can see two other students not attended/guided by their TIs. I'd rather be told "This is not ConAir, please do not guide/carry your pax by grabbing his chest strap even when standing next to the door and rather grab one of the laterals" but to leave a student alone with the aircraft (and the prop running) close-by.

Just for German-speaking readers: I wonder when this shit is gonna hit the RTL/SAT.1 fan Crazy

Unfortunately this, and lots of other crazy stuff, is the norm at some DZ's..... some more than others. Crazy


PommyG  (F 715)

May 26, 2012, 12:04 AM
Post #53 of 260 (3089 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

As a tandem master in Australia I will say there never is, or ever will be, ANY excuse for leaving an aircraft with a student who says they do not want to jump. If they show any signs of refusal then you should be asking if they do not want to jump. This is what the TM should have been doing in this instance as the student was obviously having second thoughts. He was not in a position where not jumping would be dangerous, they were in a large aircraft where moving aside was a definite option. We jump from a 182 & only last week I had a guy change his mind. He was clearly terrified so we swapped around in a fully loaded 182 & we landed in the aircraft. No skin off my nose & certainly not worth risking a law suit for $40!
Does anyone know if any action has been taken against this reckless individual?
Glad to see that luckily no one was injured.....or worse.




redramdriver  (C License)

May 26, 2012, 3:10 AM
Post #55 of 260 (3032 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Looked this morning...now its on the front cover page of Yahoo.com


Squeak  (E 1313)

May 26, 2012, 3:48 AM
Post #56 of 260 (3014 views)
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In reply to:
Looked this morning...now its on the front cover page of Yahoo.com
it was just screened on our national news service here in OZ


grimmie  (D 18890)

May 26, 2012, 5:33 AM
Post #57 of 260 (2959 views)
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I have been in an airport access battle for just over two years. Just when I get a business license and lease agreement, now I am on my way to see the airport management company and explain things to them. The city attorney forwarded the video to them and wants some explaining to be done.


alec86  (C 109831)

May 26, 2012, 5:49 AM
Post #58 of 260 (2943 views)
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Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

just for the record and to clear this up to stop this leading the thread she was NOT forced out against her will...., if you disagree see link below...

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/...-harness-after-jump/


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 26, 2012, 6:32 AM
Post #59 of 260 (2894 views)
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Quote:
You silly foreign buggers. This is North America*, the Land of Free Enterprise. It's all about the money

Most DZs in the US have a policy that once the plane is taxiiing down the runway, the student has spent all of their money. It's explained to them ahead of time, and reinforced if they seem hesitant any at point before boarding the aircraft.

Every DZ I have worked at has always offered some consession to a jumper who backed out in the door. It was typically a chance to jump again for slot cost, or sometimes no cost at all.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 26, 2012, 7:42 AM
Post #60 of 260 (2840 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/...-harness-after-jump/

in the above link, she states that she wasn't pushed out nor resisting the TI. She says her knees gave out and she was trying to support herself.

She also explains she didn't know she was in any kind of predicament until she saw the video later. It was her sister that posted the video on Youtube so it could be shared with family members (according to the article and accompanying video)


BobMoore  (D 13136)

May 26, 2012, 8:04 AM
Post #61 of 260 (2817 views)
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In reply to:
It was her sister that posted the video on Youtube so it could be shared with family members (according to the article and accompanying video)

I wonder why her sister waited so long to post it to YouTube so family members could see it, or is it only now that the world is aware of it?


accur8shot  (A License)

May 26, 2012, 8:36 AM
Post #62 of 260 (2783 views)
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Re: [fifthfloyd] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, the video IS great for the sport. I think it should be required viewing for all prospective tandem instructors. I doubt the video is going to scare away anyone who's been thinking about jumping. Nerves are one thing, but if a person is apprehensive to begin with, maybe they shouldn't be jumping in the first place.

You can learn as much from a bad example of something as you can from a good one.


excaza  (C License)

May 26, 2012, 9:23 AM
Post #63 of 260 (2750 views)
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In reply to:
She also explains she didn't know she was in any kind of predicament until she saw the video later.
I don't believe that for a second.


isle

May 26, 2012, 9:43 AM
Post #64 of 260 (2733 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

You can fell out same way even from a properly tightened rig if your chute opens when you are in a sit fly position.


Skyflyer3  (D License)

May 26, 2012, 10:41 AM
Post #65 of 260 (2684 views)
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In reply to:
You can fell out same way even from a properly tightened rig if your chute opens when you are in a sit fly position.

1/3 of my passengers are in a sit position.
I've never lost one.


jclalor  (B 33202)

May 26, 2012, 10:56 AM
Post #66 of 260 (2662 views)
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Re: [alec86] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
just for the record and to clear this up to stop this leading the thread she was NOT forced out against her will...., if you disagree see link below...

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/...-harness-after-jump/

Anyone that gives that much of an impression that they don't want to jump, should be left on the plane. I have never seen a tandem clutch at the door the way she did. Then again, according to her, the jump went fine.

I think she's being nice to the TI.


robinheid  (D 5533)

May 26, 2012, 10:57 AM
Post #67 of 260 (2661 views)
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In reply to:
I have been in an airport access battle for just over two years. Just when I get a business license and lease agreement, now I am on my way to see the airport management company and explain things to them. The city attorney forwarded the video to them and wants some explaining to be done.

So explain it to them:

In almost 30 years of tandem jumps and approximately 30 MILLION tandem jumps, there have been two or three fall-out-of-harness fatalities, this one near miss, and 20-some (?) total tandem fatalities -- WORLDWIDE.

I'll let a math major figure out the stats, but that is a totally effing amazing safety record, though you'd never know it from the slobbering pseudo-whuffos spewing poop on this thread.

Another thing: Despite the mistakes leading up to the exit, the TI absolutely refused to let his passenger die; he solved a never-before-seen problem on the fly and they landed without injury on the DZ.

Really, people, whatever happened to the "any jump you can walk away from is a good jump"?

Yeah, it was kinda weird in the middle, but the end result was the same as 99.9999 percent of all tandem jumps; a safe landing and a satisfied customer.

44
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seaweedknees

May 26, 2012, 11:47 AM
Post #68 of 260 (2620 views)
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I have never heard such a stupid comment. Look at the pic of her in the door, her leg straps were round her knees, its negligence.

To say the TI did a good job as dealt with a problem on the fly is just idiotic. Its the same as a plane crash when the out of control aircraft narrowly misses a school, kindergarten, hospital etc just because of the expert hero pilot. Utter BS.

He almost killed her and it was pure luck and luck alone that meant she could walk away. You can clearly see in the video there is nothing he can do so pulls. You think he could hold onto her during deployment? Not a chance, it was luck that her legs were hooked or her arm was caught or something that saved her from falling out completely.


Skyflyer3  (D License)

May 26, 2012, 12:00 PM
Post #69 of 260 (2603 views)
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Re: [seaweedknees] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

+ 1,000,000

Well said!
It was pure luck this didn't end with a fatality.


grimmie  (D 18890)

May 26, 2012, 12:04 PM
Post #70 of 260 (2599 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I did.Mad

Check your stats on world wide tandem fatlities.Frown


format  (B 15348)

May 26, 2012, 1:25 PM
Post #71 of 260 (2545 views)
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In reply to:
Actually, the video IS great for the sport. I think it should be required viewing for all prospective tandem instructors. I doubt the video is going to scare away anyone who's been thinking about jumping...

I showed the video to a 80 year old lady, who's been waiting to jump for two years now. She's been very excited to see it and wants to jump now even more then ever. She knows exactly whom with and is patient accordingly.
Coincidently, that TM uses 'Y' strap AND a knees_lifter strap for landing. He doesn't want cessna for her and not less than 4kts winds.


LyraM45  (B 26378)

May 26, 2012, 1:38 PM
Post #72 of 260 (2525 views)
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In reply to:
+ 1,000,000

Well said!
It was pure luck this didn't end with a fatality.

Another +1,000,000 from me!!!! Totally asinine to say that this guy did anything well or had anything to do with her surviving this jump. Homeboy got lucky!!


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

May 26, 2012, 7:04 PM
Post #73 of 260 (2307 views)
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Re: [LyraM45] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
+ 1,000,000

Well said!
It was pure luck this didn't end with a fatality.

Another +1,000,000 from me!!!! Totally asinine to say that this guy did anything well or had anything to do with her surviving this jump. Homeboy got lucky!!

Sometimes "Dumb Luck" is the best solution for "Outright Stupid".

Something that bothered me was the method used to move his student into the door. As her legs became pinned underneath her, the TI doesn't seem to realize it. That and the fact that (as seen in the door before exit) the harness is clearly not adjusted properly.


nigel99  (D 1)

May 26, 2012, 8:19 PM
Post #74 of 260 (2243 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
+ 1,000,000

Well said!
It was pure luck this didn't end with a fatality.

Another +1,000,000 from me!!!! Totally asinine to say that this guy did anything well or had anything to do with her surviving this jump. Homeboy got lucky!!

Sometimes "Dumb Luck" is the best solution for "Outright Stupid".

Something that bothered me was the method used to move his student into the door. As her legs became pinned underneath her, the TI doesn't seem to realize it. That and the fact that (as seen in the door before exit) the harness is clearly not adjusted properly.

How do you TI's deal with fragile elderly people? While this particular jump is screwed up beyond belief ,it's not that uncommon for people in their late 60's and older to do tandems. They aren't that flexible so how do you deal with them 'properly' in the aircraft?


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 26, 2012, 10:03 PM
Post #75 of 260 (2177 views)
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In reply to:
The city attorney forwarded the video to them and wants some explaining to be done.

Forward a picture of a car crash to the attorney and ask what the heck is up with all those "roads" and "cars" in the municipality. Demand an explanation!

(Of course I'm not being serious, unless you want to be like the DZ sending out "I love airplane noise" stickers to the opposition...)


coconutmonkey  (D 24601)

May 27, 2012, 5:46 AM
Post #76 of 260 (3744 views)
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Re: [jclalor] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

'Good Morning America' just played the incident video and the lady was very kind in saying that the TM didn't force her out but acknowledged that he did give her a bit of a nudge.
Still, the video has gone viral and is front page Yahoo! news now. Folks have to remember that this kind of action impacts the whole community, much like a poor Demo performance.


danornan  (D 11308)

May 27, 2012, 6:13 AM
Post #77 of 260 (3731 views)
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Re: [coconutmonkey] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Imagine if she had fallen out of the harness and we just had the video without her commentary?


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

May 27, 2012, 7:07 AM
Post #78 of 260 (3691 views)
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Re: [danornan] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

If she had fallen out I doubt we would have ever seen the video.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 27, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #79 of 260 (3600 views)
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Re: [Maksimsf] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Thoroughly tasteless ... and totally honest!


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
May 27, 2012, 8:20 PM
Post #80 of 260 (3340 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Robin, worldwide tandem fatality numbers are approaching or have exceeded 100 at this point.


tdog  (D 28800)

May 28, 2012, 7:33 AM
Post #81 of 260 (3087 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Most DZs in the US have a policy that once the plane is taxiiing down the runway, the student has spent all of their money. It's explained to them ahead of time, and reinforced if they seem hesitant any at point before boarding the aircraft.

Every DZ I have worked at has always offered some consession to a jumper who backed out in the door. It was typically a chance to jump again for slot cost, or sometimes no cost at all.

Robert Feldman, in his talk at the 2007 PIA meeting strongly advised that a DZ/DZO never have or enforce a no-refund policy, even if the customer flew to altitude, and should not use it as motivation to get someone to jump in any way shape or form. He basically said the greed over $200 could cause millions of dollars of liability if the injured/killed skydiver or their family could convince the judge and jury that the injured party was coerced to jump in any way.


(This post was edited by tdog on May 28, 2012, 7:35 AM)


skyrider  (D 14710)

May 28, 2012, 11:04 AM
Post #82 of 260 (2971 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Someone grab that video for posterity before it dissapears

I was just about to (after watching it once 1st) - and just moments ago, when re-clicking the link, find it has been re-set as "PRIVATE".

Not to worry, it has been put up a few other places!
http://www.boomclips.com/...rong/Extreme_videos/


skyrider  (D 14710)

May 28, 2012, 11:31 AM
Post #83 of 260 (2944 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Most DZs in the US have a policy that once the plane is taxiiing down the runway, the student has spent all of their money. It's explained to them ahead of time, and reinforced if they seem hesitant any at point before boarding the aircraft.

Every DZ I have worked at has always offered some consession to a jumper who backed out in the door. It was typically a chance to jump again for slot cost, or sometimes no cost at all.

Robert Feldman, in his talk at the 2007 PIA meeting strongly advised that a DZ/DZO never have or enforce a no-refund policy, even if the customer flew to altitude, and should not use it as motivation to get someone to jump in any way shape or form. He basically said the greed over $200 could cause millions of dollars of liability if the injured/killed skydiver or their family could convince the judge and jury that the injured party was coerced to jump in any way.

Very goood point, after all, when AFF students or Tandems get winded out and have to land, we don;t charge them for the next jump...that should include anyone that simply chickens out....


LDiCosimo  (B License)

May 28, 2012, 12:46 PM
Post #84 of 260 (2877 views)
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Re: [coconutmonkey] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the lady was very kind in saying that the TM didn't force her out but acknowledged that he did give her a bit of a nudge..

This statement i'm guessing is due to a private settlement with a confidentiality clause


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

May 28, 2012, 1:45 PM
Post #85 of 260 (2825 views)
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Re: [seaweedknees] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You think he could hold onto her during deployment? Not a chance, it was luck that her legs were hooked or her arm was caught or something that saved her from falling out completely.
Luck played a role here, but let's not forget the lever effects can play a role. For example, it may require less than 10-pounds-force to keep a knee bent to 'keep it hooked' on a strap (holding up a 170 pound weight).
....We already know 3-ring releases uses lever action. A little, minor force from a string keeps the tiny ring closed on a 3-ring release. Let it go and the small ring levers through the middle ring, whch then levers out of the big ring to release your riser from your rig... The puny string (held down through ring by the cutaway cable) holding a 3-ring release, doesn't need to hold a force of over 400 pounds (tandem opening shock), thanks to the lever effect. I'm sure Bill Booth could explain 3-ring action better, but he'll /definitely/ explain the "lever effect" that 3-ring release take advantage of. Also, a bent knee hanging from a loose strap, exercises "lever physics" too, that may very well determine whether it slips or stays in.

I'm academically speaking, of course. The instructor's actions are inexcusable, but are we saying trying to help contain the woman is useless? The instructor should give up right away after realizing a stupidly terrible/fatal strap mistake? I think not. From an academic viewpoint, I think it may have become worse if the instructor hadn't tried hard to keep her on. (and maybe even videographer scientifically did indeed help, subject to dispute) Watching the video, the lever pivot point was changed (the strap was seemed to have been moved slightly higher up above the knee - that's the lever pivot point, if you know physics) However minor/academic it may have been, the lever effect cannot be underestimated. Just 1 or 2 pounds of extra force keeping a knee bent, may have been everything that was needed to keep the woman from falling out.

A change in the lever pivot point (such as a strap moving half an inch higher up the leg) would scientifically have made all the difference if the woman was only barely hanging on, given the woman's possible limited strength in keeping a knee bent. The very minor pivot position change (strap position along legs/knee), may have made it easier for the woman to keep the knee bent.

Luck played a large role, though!


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on May 28, 2012, 2:09 PM)


robinheid  (D 5533)

May 28, 2012, 3:25 PM
Post #86 of 260 (2711 views)
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In reply to:
I did.Mad

And... how did it go?

In reply to:
Check your stats on world wide tandem fatlities.Frown

Why?

44
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(This post was edited by robinheid on May 28, 2012, 3:26 PM)


robinheid  (D 5533)

May 28, 2012, 3:56 PM
Post #87 of 260 (2681 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Actually, the video IS great for the sport. I think it should be required viewing for all prospective tandem instructors. I doubt the video is going to scare away anyone who's been thinking about jumping...

I showed the video to a 80 year old lady, who's been waiting to jump for two years now. She's been very excited to see it and wants to jump now even more then ever. She knows exactly whom with and is patient accordingly.
Coincidently, that TM uses 'Y' strap AND a knees_lifter strap for landing. He doesn't want cessna for her and not less than 4kts winds.

+1

This was the root problem with the tandem in question. She was treated as "just another tandem" when she clearly needed to be handled as what Jim Wallace calls a "fragile package." (For those of you unacquainted with Jim, he has 21,000+ jumps, the vast majority of which are tandem and AFFI jumps, including at least a couple of hundred tandems with paraplegics, quadraplegics, 80-95-year-olds, and multiple others with injuries/diseases and/or disabilities that make them "fragile packages.")

Jim has a very specific set of practices and procedures for his fragile packages and had this tandem been treated as such, we wouldn't be reading page after page of ill-informed whuffoesque commentary about a tandem that almost went horribly wrong but still ended up as a no-injury landing and a satisfied customer outcome. (As the stories report,she gave the TI a tip on-site and sent him a thank you note for saving her life).

44
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robinheid  (D 5533)

May 28, 2012, 4:03 PM
Post #88 of 260 (2673 views)
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In reply to:
+ 1,000,000

Well said!
It was pure luck this didn't end with a fatality.

It was not pure luck this didn't end in a fatality, but Lady Luck sure kicked the Reaper's butt that day at least.

Now if we can just get all the whuffos on this thread to start thinking about the systemic issues underlying this incident and the lessons that can be learned from it by all TIs and all DZs, then we'll be getting somewhere.

44
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kuai43  (C License)

May 28, 2012, 4:06 PM
Post #89 of 260 (2669 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just 1 or 2 pounds of extra force keeping a knee bent, may have been everything that was needed to keep the woman from falling out.

Luck played a large role, though!

I'll argue it was just as much her cross-arm grip on her harness verticals that kept her in. Tough bird.
She possibly had to have held that for the entire (extended) canopy ride.


robinheid  (D 5533)

May 28, 2012, 4:16 PM
Post #90 of 260 (2655 views)
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In reply to:
Robin, worldwide tandem fatality numbers are approaching or have exceeded 100 at this point.


Thanks, PhreeZone. That is more than I thought -- and specifically why I put that "(?)" after my estimate because I wasn't sure.

Of course, only about half of those fatalities are students, aren't they?

Wink

And when you calculate the percentage for 20 or 50 -- or even 100 -- out of the estimated 30 million tandems made during the past 30 years worldwide, I think you gotta go three or four places past the decimal point before that difference shows up.

44
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robinheid  (D 5533)

May 28, 2012, 4:44 PM
Post #91 of 260 (2628 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
You think he could hold onto her during deployment? Not a chance, it was luck that her legs were hooked or her arm was caught or something that saved her from falling out completely.
Luck played a role here, but let's not forget the lever effects can play a role. For example, it may require less than 10-pounds-force to keep a knee bent to 'keep it hooked' on a strap (holding up a 170 pound weight).
....We already know 3-ring releases uses lever action. A little, minor force from a string keeps the tiny ring closed on a 3-ring release. Let it go and the small ring levers through the middle ring, whch then levers out of the big ring to release your riser from your rig... The puny string (held down through ring by the cutaway cable) holding a 3-ring release, doesn't need to hold a force of over 400 pounds (tandem opening shock), thanks to the lever effect. I'm sure Bill Booth could explain 3-ring action better, but he'll /definitely/ explain the "lever effect" that 3-ring release take advantage of. Also, a bent knee hanging from a loose strap, exercises "lever physics" too, that may very well determine whether it slips or stays in.

I'm academically speaking, of course. The instructor's actions are inexcusable, but are we saying trying to help contain the woman is useless? The instructor should give up right away after realizing a stupidly terrible/fatal strap mistake? I think not. From an academic viewpoint, I think it may have become worse if the instructor hadn't tried hard to keep her on. (and maybe even videographer scientifically did indeed help, subject to dispute) Watching the video, the lever pivot point was changed (the strap was seemed to have been moved slightly higher up above the knee - that's the lever pivot point, if you know physics) However minor/academic it may have been, the lever effect cannot be underestimated. Just 1 or 2 pounds of extra force keeping a knee bent, may have been everything that was needed to keep the woman from falling out.

A change in the lever pivot point (such as a strap moving half an inch higher up the leg) would scientifically have made all the difference if the woman was only barely hanging on, given the woman's possible limited strength in keeping a knee bent. The very minor pivot position change (strap position along legs/knee), may have made it easier for the woman to keep the knee bent.

Luck played a large role, though!

+1

There were in fact many things the TI did in freefall (and under canopy too) that helped Lady Luck win an overtime victory over the Reaper on this one, and the points you bring up were among them.

This particular factor (among several) was specifically what I was talking about in my "stupid" comment above that the TI solved a never-before-seen problem on the fly. He kept working the problem and kept them balanced on the razor's edge of disaster until he landed them both without injury, on the DZ.

In so doing, his misadventure-with-a-happy-ending is a really really important lesson for everyone, whether they are a TI or not: never never ever give up.

This TI did not give up for one moment until after they landed, and you can see how totally spent he was from the effort.

The same goes for the 80-year-old lady, who couldn't even see what was going on; she never quit for one moment either.

Yeah yeah yeah, several serious mistakes and misjudgments were made up to and including the decision to launch, but after they were up to their eyeballs in the poop, the TI and his 80-year-old passenger never gave up and would no doubt be among the finalists for the 2011 Never Give Up Award if there was such a thing.

Thanks for your intelligent and non-whuffo contribution to this thread, mdrejhon. Nice to see someone who engages his brain before wiggling his fingers.

44
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(This post was edited by robinheid on May 28, 2012, 4:47 PM)
Attachments: never give up.jpg (88.0 KB)


jdobleman  (D 7790)

May 28, 2012, 10:32 PM
Post #92 of 260 (2445 views)
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I talked to the TI shortly (several days) after this incident. After he explained what happened to the DZO he was asked why he hadn't used the handicapped harness, which has the Y-strap. He replied, "What handicapped harness?" There was a communication problem here.

Also, during the canopy ride, the TI had the lady hold on to his chest strap with both hands while he kept one hand on her and controlled the canopy one handed. He was definitely spent when he got to the ground.

Despite what led up to this situation, he did a masterful job in getting her safely back to the ground.

madjohn, AFF-I, Tandem-I


nigel99  (D 1)

May 28, 2012, 10:44 PM
Post #93 of 260 (2436 views)
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In reply to:
I talked to the TI shortly (several days) after this incident. After he explained what happened to the DZO he was asked why he hadn't used the handicapped harness, which has the Y-strap. He replied, "What handicapped harness?" There was a communication problem here.

Also, during the canopy ride, the TI had the lady hold on to his chest strap with both hands while he kept one hand on her and controlled the canopy one handed. He was definitely spent when he got to the ground.

Despite what led up to this situation, he did a masterful job in getting her safely back to the ground.

madjohn, AFF-I, Tandem-I

If she was holding onto HIS cheststrap she must have descended upside down? Basically she must have had her face in his crotch (not trying to be funny).

Does the guy still do tandems?


hopnpopper0429  (C 36648)

May 29, 2012, 6:41 AM
Post #94 of 260 (2250 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

There was a response earlier in this thread that his Tandem rating has been revoked.

I can't believe this video has gone viral. Its now on the front page of Boston local news www.whdh.com and www.cnn.com.

Instructors and experienced jumpers got to be careful of what they do on video these days cause things can be misunderstood and a bad image of our sport goes viral and hits the headlines all over the internet.

One of my Facebook friends has posted this video and wrote "this is the reason I'll never go skydiving". Of course I know its not the reason, but now it looks like this kind of thing happens every day and it gives him an opportunity to use this as an excuse and spread additional word about this incident to people he knows.


livendive  (D 21415)

May 29, 2012, 8:35 AM
Post #95 of 260 (2118 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
Something that bothered me was the method used to move his student into the door. As her legs became pinned underneath her, the TI doesn't seem to realize it. That and the fact that (as seen in the door before exit) the harness is clearly not adjusted properly.

How do you TI's deal with fragile elderly people? While this particular jump is screwed up beyond belief ,it's not that uncommon for people in their late 60's and older to do tandems. They aren't that flexible so how do you deal with them 'properly' in the aircraft?

I've taken 95, a couple 90s, and a handful of 85's. Actually the 95 was also one of my 90's, and last I saw him he asked whether I'd be available next year for his 100th, but he's a breeze, fitter than many 60 year olds. The older women seem a little tougher, just because they seem to more commonly have a less than ideal weight distribution, but my approach is the same. I want reasonable weather and enough room on the plane to accomodate any physical limitations, e.g. seated exits or even seated climb to altitude next to the door. I always check the status of their hearing (having taken one elderly gent who surprised me by being completely deaf under canopy...turned out he'd been reading my lips on the ground), also any shoulder, hip, or knee trouble. I also don't give them the benefit of the doubt on landing, and just rotate underneath for safety.

My favorite types of tandems require more time and work than average, but the elderly and handicapped are far and away the most rewarding, regardless of pay. Those honestly too terrified to solo who conquer their fears on a tandem are pretty cool too, even if they do require some bad jokes or coddling to help them through it.

Blues,
Dave


(This post was edited by livendive on May 29, 2012, 8:36 AM)


DougH  (D License)

May 29, 2012, 12:14 PM
Post #96 of 260 (1935 views)
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Re: [jdobleman] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

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I talked to the TI shortly (several days) after this incident. After he explained what happened to the DZO he was asked why he hadn't used the handicapped harness, which has the Y-strap. He replied, "What handicapped harness?" There was a communication problem here.

Also, during the canopy ride, the TI had the lady hold on to his chest strap with both hands while he kept one hand on her and controlled the canopy one handed. He was definitely spent when he got to the ground.

Despite what led up to this situation, he did a masterful job in getting her safely back to the ground.

madjohn, AFF-I, Tandem-I

Seriously?

Did he explain why he did such a poor job of adjusting the harness?

He managed to salvage a bad situation that he alone created. It would have been better to avoid it in the first place.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

May 29, 2012, 12:55 PM
Post #97 of 260 (1886 views)
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Re: [hopnpopper0429] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There was a response earlier in this thread that his Tandem rating has been revoked.

I can't believe this video has gone viral. Its now on the front page of Boston local news www.whdh.com and www.cnn.com.

Instructors and experienced jumpers got to be careful of what they do on video these days cause things can be misunderstood and a bad image of our sport goes viral and hits the headlines all over the internet.Wrong, Instructors need to do it right! PERIOD, end of story.

One of my Facebook friends has posted this video and wrote "this is the reason I'll never go skydiving". Of course I know its not the reason, but now it looks like this kind of thing happens every day and it gives him an opportunity to use this as an excuse and spread additional word about this incident to people he knows.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

May 29, 2012, 1:33 PM
Post #98 of 260 (1832 views)
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Re: [DougH] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I talked to the TI shortly (several days) after this incident. After he explained what happened to the DZO he was asked why he hadn't used the handicapped harness, which has the Y-strap. He replied, "What handicapped harness?" There was a communication problem here.

Also, during the canopy ride, the TI had the lady hold on to his chest strap with both hands while he kept one hand on her and controlled the canopy one handed. He was definitely spent when he got to the ground.

Despite what led up to this situation, he did a masterful job in getting her safely back to the ground.

madjohn, AFF-I, Tandem-I

Seriously?

Did he explain why he did such a poor job of adjusting the harness?

He managed to salvage a bad situation that he alone created. It would have been better to avoid it in the first place.

Thank you. I couldn't agree more. "Hero Status" is no place for this TI.








oozzee  (D License)

May 29, 2012, 9:44 PM
Post #102 of 260 (3374 views)
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Re: [jdobleman] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Really....!!!! masterful job.....!!!

It was nothing but luck she didnt fall to her death...
He showed lack of duty from the start...
When it went bad he could do nothing but hope...
Her arm caught on diagonal...pure luck,,
I see no skill or masterfull feats whatsoever


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

May 30, 2012, 8:45 AM
Post #103 of 260 (3139 views)
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Re: [kuai43] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
Just 1 or 2 pounds of extra force keeping a knee bent, may have been everything that was needed to keep the woman from falling out.

Luck played a large role, though!

I'll argue it was just as much her cross-arm grip on her harness verticals that kept her in. Tough bird.
She possibly had to have held that for the entire (extended) canopy ride.
True, true... You're right too, but if her legs slipped, it is doubtful that she'd have enough strength to hold on with just her arms alone. Also the arms/shoulders through the strap, provide additional levers (contributing factor beyond just simple grip and muscle strength).

Even though her life was saved, no hero status for the instructor --

The one here with the biggest balls is the lady -- she she gave the Lodi TI a tip, a thank-you letter for saving her life, and she still wants to skydive again! We ought to agree she has such a good heart, regardless of the TI's inexcusable action. (I'd also recommend some other dropzone now, given all of what I now know about Lodi!)


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on May 30, 2012, 8:54 AM)




jdobleman  (D 7790)

May 30, 2012, 11:44 PM
Post #105 of 260 (2761 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I stand by my statement. Again, I'm not excusing the actions that led up to it, but he held on to her with one hand while steering with the other, knowing that if he let go she would probably fall through and die in front of her family.
Whatever x-factor the human body produces in times of eminent tragedy came into play. He was exhausted when he got to the ground.

No matter what anyone else says on this thread, if you haven't been a tandem master and had the shit hit the fan, you REALLY DON'T KNOW.

mad john


feuergnom  (D License)

May 31, 2012, 1:10 AM
Post #106 of 260 (2736 views)
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Re: [jdobleman] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
if you haven't been a tandem master and had the shit hit the fan

it is the foremost duty of anyone taking passengers/students to do everything they can to ensure that the chances for shit hitting the fan are as minimal as possible.

are we as tandemmasters always ahead of the game? most of the time we are, sometimes we do not know how close we come to desaster, because either we don't see/feel it or because nobody (read vidiot) is with us to tell us later.
sometimes we do everything by the book just to wake up with a pax out of hell that makes us struggle and pull out every trick we know just to stay on the safe side...

had the instructor in question made different decisions on the ground, in the plane and on exit, we would have seen just another tandem skydive with an elderly person. and that is the only thing that should count - do not let the shit get anywhere near the fan so you won't end up in situations as this one.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 31, 2012, 6:03 AM
Post #107 of 260 (2651 views)
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Re: [jdobleman] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

If you fit the harness correctly, the chances of shit hitting the fan are greatly reduced.
The TI in this instance failed at his responsibility as instructor.
Period.


patrickweldon  (D 15896)

May 31, 2012, 7:43 AM
Post #108 of 260 (2596 views)
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Re: [jdobleman] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a Tandem Master, as are a great number of people who have posted on this thread. It is us - the ones who are now all in the cross hairs - who are most vocal now, and have them most to lose.

The TI in the video is a fool! A horrible incompetent fool who by some incredible stroke of pure luck has his passenger survive. He cannot take ANY credit.

If I get drunk, drive my car at 90 mph into a school and run over a kid, do I get to be a hero because I pat the kid on the head until the ambulance arrive! Of course not. This nut case has no business skydiving, much less being a TI. From moment he left the plane (actually even before...) he is a disaster. He cannot exit a plane. He is not stable for a single second. He clearly does not know how to put on a harness. He doesnt not how to arch or fall stable.


(This post was edited by billvon on May 31, 2012, 12:43 PM)


robinheid  (D 5533)

May 31, 2012, 9:14 AM
Post #109 of 260 (2544 views)
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Re: [patrickweldon] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

 

TI in question has 9k jumps, 3k tandems, and never had an issue with a student before this one.

This TI is in fact one of the most complete and completely competent parachutists I have known in my almost 40 years of parachuting.


(This post was edited by billvon on May 31, 2012, 10:03 AM)


TheCaptain  (D License)

May 31, 2012, 9:37 AM
Post #110 of 260 (2520 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

TI in question has 9k jumps, 3k tandems, and never had an issue with a student before this one
Wow, I think that makes this entire thing a lot scarier. It would be easier to understand an inexperienced instructor being this oblivious to seriousness of having the harness adjusted right, but an instructor with over 3000 tandems being this oblivious is horrible. I personally check the students harness 2 times on the ground (when I am done fitting it and prior to getting on the plane) and 3 times in the plane ( just after putting the seatbelts on, just before connecting and once just after connecting them). You can see that she is almost totally out of that harness before she ever left the plane. This entire situation is the instructors fault period.

Hey Robin this instructor may be an incredible skydiver and a hell of a guy but there is NO EXCUSE in the world for for having the harness so ill fitted that this incident could occur. This is not just a harness a little miss adjusted to to cause this outcome.


(This post was edited by billvon on May 31, 2012, 10:04 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

May 31, 2012, 9:42 AM
Post #111 of 260 (2512 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Almost criminal IMO.


robinheid  (D 5533)

May 31, 2012, 9:58 AM
Post #112 of 260 (2501 views)
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TI in question has 9k jumps, 3k tandems, more time-in-sport than you, and never had an issue with a student before this one, Mr. Holier-than-thou.
Wow, I think that makes this entire thing a lot scarier.
+1

That is precisely my point. With a low-timer, it's easy to explain this away as a that-would-never-happen-to-me-because-I'd-NEVER-be-that-stupid/incompetent/oblivious/etc -- but he isn't.

He's an ace, one of the best of the best, and after almost 30 years of jumping and instructing he still ended up in a process stream that resulted in his making a chain of mistakes and misjudgments that almost killed his passenger.

And, yes, as I have said before, it is ultimately the TI's responsibility for what happened because he could have said "no" or changed the process path at several points leading up to and including the exit, but he didn't -- and that is where the focus needs to be because the tandem process path at his DZ was not substantively different than at any other big DZ that does a lot of tandems.

The scariest part of all? The process path that resulted in two fall-out-of-harness fatalities and this notorious near-miss is still in place at most large US DZs and that is being overlooked in favor of brutalizing one TI and the DZ at which it occurred.

This incident was a big wakeup call at the DZ in question and it has since adjusted its tandem process path. It should be a similar wakeup call and process path changer for every TI and big DZ that does a lot of tandems.

44
Cool


matthewcline  (D 21585)

May 31, 2012, 10:03 AM
Post #113 of 260 (2488 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the GA Fatality is different, the result was the same, but how it came to it is different.

The best/closest example to compare this Lodi Incident too is the Ohio one.

Your point that a person with that much experience, that should know better, can make a mistake is valid, and he should expect to be raked over the coals.

Your better point that, DZO's on down, need to step up, as well as Fun Jumpers and Instructors etc, to stop the complacent actions of any one is the lesson to learn here!

Matt


fcajump  (D 15598)

May 31, 2012, 10:45 AM
Post #114 of 260 (2438 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

TI in question has 9k jumps, 3k tandems, and never had an issue with a student before this one.

This TI is in fact one of the most complete and completely competent parachutists I have known in my almost 40 years of parachuting.

And it is sobering that someone with that much experience can still fail to perform the minimum necessary for safety.

This is why I think the process of a pre-board gear check (of everyone) from someone else (maybe the battery-cart/ladder guy for biggerr places) is necessary.

(general statement, not assuming any/all of these are applicable here:)
If you look at the pace many TI's jump at, throw in heat/humidity, (beer's the night before?) dehydration, exhaustion or water intoxication* all become a real possibility of hampering the instructor (or any jumper) in completing basic actions.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

When was the last time your S&TA looked you in the eyes to check if you were all there?

Just thinkin,
JW


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 31, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #115 of 260 (2430 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

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This incident was a big wakeup call at the DZ in question and it has since adjusted its tandem process path. It should be a similar wakeup call and process path

Care to elaborate on the details?

I'm all for fairness and not seeing things in black or white, but I'll need some more evidence to believe it wasn't the instructor's screw up. Yes, the passenger was demanding, basically squirming her way out the back of the harness during the long sequence in the door. And with a tight King Air, dealing with a refusal on the part of a student may be a little more awkward (and thus bias instructors more against it?), but I haven't tried it myself.

What exactly was up with the side connectors?

Hard to see the side connectors on the video, but when moving towards the door, even before she does the fight & squirm routine, her ass is down by his shins. If he had the side connectors tight, he'd be riding her ass. That would both physically help restrain her from squeezing out the back, and help him notice if she tried it. But even moving towards the door, she was more like some hanging military tethered bundle than two skydivers fastened together as one.

And were the leg straps really snug and well positioned at the start?

Much harder to squirm out if they aren't loose and down the leg a little to start with. It is a small concern to me that the leg straps on the Sigma harnesses pretty much bottom out when fitted to someone skinny. The harness usually seems tight enough when comfort pads are overlapped and the leg straps are FULLY tightened.

(In normal operations, instructors aren't going to go for the special alternative where the leg straps are completely unthreaded and rethreaded behind the cross pieces on the leg pads that allow "shortening" the leg pads.)

Hard to tell but the butt strap might have been reasonable positioned. I used to think the Y-strap mod was a little excessive, but when one gets really boneless no muscle tension passengers, or huge assed ones, I do worry just a little about 'the hole' in the harness, so am happy to use a Y-strap now, just as a backup.

I'll agree that it isn't the easiest to go up with a student who is relatively breakable, of slight build, squirmy, and stiff in some ways but little muscle tension in other ways. But take reasonable precautions or don't take them up.

I just don't see anything that convinces me that the instructor had the harness on snugly & properly to begin with.

(A small part of the blame will always go to the DZ too, if they generally tolerate the kind of fast and sloppy harnessing that makes it easier for passengers to fall out or helps put the pair unstable.)


(This post was edited by pchapman on May 31, 2012, 10:52 AM)


NoShitThereIWas  (D 25347)

May 31, 2012, 11:13 AM
Post #116 of 260 (2389 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

TI in question has 9k jumps, 3k tandems, and never had an issue with a student before this one.

This TI is in fact one of the most complete and completely competent parachutists I have known in my almost 40 years of parachuting.

If he has that many skydives without incident, great. It is time to retire now, throw in the hat and take up bowling or golf.


(This post was edited by billvon on May 31, 2012, 12:45 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 31, 2012, 12:50 PM
Post #117 of 260 (2303 views)
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Warning [In reply to] Can't Post

Warning to everyone:

This thread is here so that people can report, discuss and learn from this incident. This thread is NOT for personal attacks on (or defenses of) friends or other posters. Such comments will be deleted and the poster banned from the forum.

Please remain on topic.


nigel99  (D 1)

May 31, 2012, 5:51 PM
Post #118 of 260 (2161 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Robin,

What steps have been implemented? I am aware that we can all have an off day no matter how good we are.

Clearly on that jump complacency was a huge problem - you can see the harness hanging off her shoulder in the plane.


diablopilot  (D License)

May 31, 2012, 8:25 PM
Post #119 of 260 (2065 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

TI in question has 9k jumps, 3k tandems, and never had an issue with a student before this one.

This TI is in fact one of the most complete and completely competent parachutists I have known in my almost 40 years of parachuting.

The video shows otherwise.


Skyper

Jun 1, 2012, 4:39 AM
Post #120 of 260 (1944 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Interview with a granny:

http://www.youtube.com/...=1&v=XWoOCmGq38w


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jun 1, 2012, 7:46 AM
Post #121 of 260 (1866 views)
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Re: [Skyper] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is the FULL interview:

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/...ess-while-skydiving/


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jun 1, 2012, 9:29 AM
Post #122 of 260 (1791 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Robin,
What steps have been implemented? I am aware that we can all have an off day no matter how good we are.

From off-DZ.com communication, it seems Robin has been banned for a while, at least in this forum.

I don't know specifically what Lodi did to change things. Robin mounted a rather strong defense of the TI, and I made a rebuttal. While both of us agree that the TI screwed up, the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

So someone might be a good TI in general, but if the DZ encourages speedy harnessing and less than rigorous tightening up in the airplane, to keep turnaround fast and because it hasn't caused big problems before, then the instructor may tend towards doing things that way. That becomes the norm, the local culture. (That's hypothetical - I don't know how things actually worked at Lodi.)

It is a typical human factors thing -- If a pilot screws up, he shouldn't always get all the blame, because his company might have been putting him in an environment or in a system that helped set him up to fail.

I still believe that the era of casual harnessing up should have disappeared pretty soon after all the industry publicity after the two fatalities of passengers falling out -- and that whatever the DZ norms were, the instructor should have tightened up his personal procedures.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jun 1, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #123 of 260 (1777 views)
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Quote:
if the DZ encourages speedy harnessing and less than rigorous tightening up in the airplane, to keep turnaround fast

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the video included time in the gear up room, and footage of the TI joking it up for the camera with the students cane on the way to the plane. Neither scene presented what I would call a 'rushed' environment.

It appeared to me as is there would have been sufficient time to follow proper procedures. I could see, prehaps, if the TI was on back-to-back loads, and the DZ had assigned another jumper to harness the student who the TI simply picked up on the way to the running AC, in that case you could blame the DZ for creating a rushed atmosphere.

In this case, it appears otherwise, and I would look more toward the TI for their lax attitude regarding properly tightened harnesses, and only partially at the DZ for not having a firm policy in place that no student gets anywhere near an AC without being 100% harnessed in a ready-to-jump configuration. The fact is that even if a DZ doesn't have such a policy in place, that in no way precludes the TI from having a personal policy in place that they will not take a student to the plane unless they are 100% ready to jump.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jun 1, 2012, 10:04 AM
Post #124 of 260 (1750 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
in no way precludes the TI from having a personal policy in place that they will not take a student to the plane unless they are 100% ready to jump.

I'll note that some things that may have been considered perfectly acceptable at many DZ's before the falling out incidents, are no longer acceptable. So the definition of "100%" changed -- and that was well before the Lodi incident.

(And good point about how the gear up appeared unhurried in this particular case.)


TheCaptain  (D License)

Jun 1, 2012, 10:31 AM
Post #125 of 260 (1721 views)
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the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

So someone might be a good TI in general, but if the DZ encourages speedy harnessing and less than rigorous tightening up in the airplane, to keep turnaround fast and because it hasn't caused big problems before, then the instructor may tend towards doing things that way. That becomes the norm, the local culture. (That's hypothetical - I don't know how things actually worked at Lodi
I do not buy this as a valid argument. How long does it take to gear up a student with less than perfect harness job? How long does it take to adjust the harness correctly? My estimate is about the same time or just 1 minute more for the later one. Once an instructor has been around for awhile and with 3000 tandems I would hope he could gear one up quickly and well. Now lets even follow this down to a turn in the field (which this one is not) it only adds about a minute or two to look over a preharnessed student to see if it is adjusted close enough or make a few minor adjustments. Also you have the plane flight time which should be used to check and recheck the harness fit or at least in my book. Bottom line there is no acceptable excuse for what happened.


(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Jun 1, 2012, 10:42 AM)


DougH  (D License)

Jun 1, 2012, 10:51 AM
Post #126 of 260 (2963 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know specifically what Lodi did to change things. Robin mounted a rather strong defense of the TI, and I made a rebuttal. While both of us agree that the TI screwed up, the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

I think people have been equally critical of Lodi and the TI, and rightfully so.

Yes the DZ environment can influence an instructors behavior. But an instructor can choose their environment.

You can refuse to take students on back to backs without being given the chance to do a final adjustment before boarding the plane.

You can refuse to be an instructor at a DZ that has poor safety procedures, poor maintenance programs, won't give you go around, etc etc.

No one has a gun to your head when you choose a DZ, or when you leave the plane with your student.


marks2065  (D 18925)

Jun 1, 2012, 11:22 AM
Post #127 of 260 (2938 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't know specifically what Lodi did to change things. Robin mounted a rather strong defense of the TI, and I made a rebuttal. While both of us agree that the TI screwed up, the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

I think people have been equally critical of Lodi and the TI, and rightfully so.

Yes the DZ environment can influence an instructors behavior. But an instructor can choose their environment.

You can refuse to take students on back to backs without being given the chance to do a final adjustment before boarding the plane.

You can refuse to be an instructor at a DZ that has poor safety procedures, poor maintenance programs, won't give you go around, etc etc.

No one has a gun to your head when you choose a DZ, or when you leave the plane with your student.

I was what a DZO would call a bad instructor. I refused to do back to backs, spent time with the student before and after the jump, and never got on the plane without the lower half of the harness fully adjusted(leaving just a minor adjustment to back strap and shoulders on plane for comfort) The DZO hated this because it lowered my student count. But then I wasn't in it for the money, just for fun and helping the student get the most out of the experience. The TI's that actually pay their bills with jumps were always rushed and sometimes sloppy with the harness. I feel we need to slow the tandem mills down and worry more about the value to the student instead of the income from the student.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jun 1, 2012, 11:51 AM
Post #128 of 260 (2907 views)
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In reply to:
I was what a DZO would call a bad instructor. I refused to do back to backs, spent time with the student before and after the jump, and never got on the plane without the lower half of the harness fully adjusted(leaving just a minor adjustment to back strap and shoulders on plane for comfort) The DZO hated this because it lowered my student count. But then I wasn't in it for the money, just for fun and helping the student get the most out of the experience. The TI's that actually pay their bills with jumps were always rushed and sometimes sloppy with the harness. I feel we need to slow the tandem mills down and worry more about the value to the student instead of the income from the student.

Me too. The DZO and I had an agreement before I even got my rating that this is the way I would work... I added a rig and TI to his staff on busy days, but only at my speed. I was also the first to back down when the student count was low, because I didn't want to get in the way of the TI's who were trying to make any real money.

A neighboring DZ asked me to come teach for them, and after seeing their gear I agreed on one condition... I jump only my own rig (their rigs were junk) and I pack for myself. Rather than have me for the slow/steady jumps I was willing to do, they told me that my conditions were unacceptable. OK. No problem. They need the TI's, I don't need the work. Their problem, not mine.

I like the idea that one can share what we do and that it can pay for my training and fun jumps, but I do think that trying to actually make any real money at this requires shortcuts that are unacceptable (at least, to me...)

JW


feuergnom  (D License)

Jun 1, 2012, 12:02 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I was what a DZO would call a bad instructor. I refused to do back to backs, spent time with the student before and after the jump, and never got on the plane without the lower half of the harness fully adjusted(leaving just a minor adjustment to back strap and shoulders on plane for comfort) The DZO hated this because it lowered my student count. But then I wasn't in it for the money, just for fun and helping the student get the most out of the experience. The TI's that actually pay their bills with jumps were always rushed and sometimes sloppy with the harness. I feel we need to slow the tandem mills down and worry more about the value to the student instead of the income from the student.

Me too. The DZO and I had an agreement before I even got my rating that this is the way I would work... I added a rig and TI to his staff on busy days, but only at my speed. I was also the first to back down when the student count was low, because I didn't want to get in the way of the TI's who were trying to make any real money.

A neighboring DZ asked me to come teach for them, and after seeing their gear I agreed on one condition... I jump only my own rig (their rigs were junk) and I pack for myself. Rather than have me for the slow/steady jumps I was willing to do, they told me that my conditions were unacceptable. OK. No problem. They need the TI's, I don't need the work. Their problem, not mine.

I like the idea that one can share what we do and that it can pay for my training and fun jumps, but I do think that trying to actually make any real money at this requires shortcuts that are unacceptable (at least, to me...)

JW

your two posts combined define the root of all the shit happening, maybe we should move this discussion over to the instructors forum?


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Jun 1, 2012, 12:55 PM
Post #130 of 260 (2850 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

So someone might be a good TI in general, but if the DZ encourages speedy harnessing and less than rigorous tightening up in the airplane, to keep turnaround fast and because it hasn't caused big problems before, then the instructor may tend towards doing things that way. That becomes the norm, the local culture. (That's hypothetical - I don't know how things actually worked at Lodi
I do not buy this as a valid argument. How long does it take to gear up a student with less than perfect harness job? How long does it take to adjust the harness correctly? My estimate is about the same time or just 1 minute more for the later one. Once an instructor has been around for awhile and with 3000 tandems I would hope he could gear one up quickly and well. Now lets even follow this down to a turn in the field (which this one is not) it only adds about a minute or two to look over a preharnessed student to see if it is adjusted close enough or make a few minor adjustments. Also you have the plane flight time which should be used to check and recheck the harness fit or at least in my book. Bottom line there is no acceptable excuse for what happened.
While training 4-way there in 2008 these are things I have witnessed first hand.

1. Student meeting instructor in loading area. During these times I have seen both the harness loose and tight. I have also watched instructors tighten the harness before entering the plane and after.

2. I have watched a TI take his rig off so he could sit in the right seat of the otter and then put the rig on jump run.

3. Had an entire otter load screaming at me to open the door at 1000'. I refused due to the TI and student at the end of the bench not only not being connected but the student harness loose and the TI tightening his own leg straps. Once everything was tightened I opened the door. The TI thanked me for not giving in to the whining babies on board.

4. Had to wake up a camera flier in the "hole" on jump run before he missed his tandem.


(This post was edited by billvon on Jun 4, 2012, 6:28 AM)






LyraM45  (B 26378)

Jun 1, 2012, 5:20 PM
Post #133 of 260 (2692 views)
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Re: [jtiflyer] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

So someone might be a good TI in general, but if the DZ encourages speedy harnessing and less than rigorous tightening up in the airplane, to keep turnaround fast and because it hasn't caused big problems before, then the instructor may tend towards doing things that way. That becomes the norm, the local culture. (That's hypothetical - I don't know how things actually worked at Lodi

I do not buy this as a valid argument. How long does it take to gear up a student with less than perfect harness job? How long does it take to adjust the harness correctly? My estimate is about the same time or just 1 minute more for the later one. Once an instructor has been around for awhile and with 3000 tandems I would hope he could gear one up quickly and well. Now lets even follow this down to a turn in the field (which this one is not) it only adds about a minute or two to look over a preharnessed student to see if it is adjusted close enough or make a few minor adjustments. Also you have the plane flight time which should be used to check and recheck the harness fit or at least in my book. Bottom line there is no acceptable excuse for what happened.
While training 4-way there in 2008 these are things I have witnessed first hand.

1. Student meeting instructor in loading area. During these times I have seen both the harness loose and tight. I have also watched instructors tighten the harness before entering the plane and after.

2. I have watched a TI take his rig off so he could sit in the right seat of the otter and then put the rig on jump run.

3. Had an entire otter load screaming at me to open the door at 1000'. I refused due to the TI and student at the end of the bench not only not being connected but the student harness loose and the TI tightening his own leg straps. Once everything was tightened I opened the door. The TI thanked me for not giving in to the whining babies on board.

4. Had to wake up a camera flier in the "hole" on jump run before he missed his tandem.

And let's not even bring up the Temp pin that was found in a tandem rig ON THE NEXT REPACK.
Ditto.... I've also witnessed things there with my own two eyes that makes me very doubtful that the DZ environment and style had nothing to do with the incident as Robin went waaaaayyy far out of the way to point out. It was just one of many things in a chain. All of which are unacceptable.


swoopgaz  (E 1964)

Jun 1, 2012, 5:56 PM
Post #134 of 260 (2662 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't know specifically what Lodi did to change things. Robin mounted a rather strong defense of the TI, and I made a rebuttal. While both of us agree that the TI screwed up, the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

I think people have been equally critical of Lodi and the TI, and rightfully so.

Yes the DZ environment can influence an instructors behavior. But an instructor can choose their environment.

You can refuse to take students on back to backs without being given the chance to do a final adjustment before boarding the plane.

You can refuse to be an instructor at a DZ that has poor safety procedures, poor maintenance programs, won't give you go around, etc etc.

No one has a gun to your head when you choose a DZ, or when you leave the plane with your student.

I was what a DZO would call a bad instructor. I refused to do back to backs, spent time with the student before and after the jump, and never got on the plane without the lower half of the harness fully adjusted(leaving just a minor adjustment to back strap and shoulders on plane for comfort) The DZO hated this because it lowered my student count. But then I wasn't in it for the money, just for fun and helping the student get the most out of the experience. The TI's that actually pay their bills with jumps were always rushed and sometimes sloppy with the harness. I feel we need to slow the tandem mills down and worry more about the value to the student instead of the income from the student.

Mate if you let your student get on the plane with a harness that is not fully adjusted and ready to jump then you are a "bad instructor." there is no place for a student to be getting on a plane that is not ready to jump. A harness can not be properly fitted/adjusted once they are sitting. If you are leaving the top half loose for comfort that is poor form.






marks2065  (D 18925)

Jun 4, 2012, 6:21 AM
Post #137 of 260 (1974 views)
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Re: [swoopgaz] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't know specifically what Lodi did to change things. Robin mounted a rather strong defense of the TI, and I made a rebuttal. While both of us agree that the TI screwed up, the point Robin was apparently trying to make is that peoples' actions are affected by their environment, so that the TI shouldn't be blamed 100%.

I think people have been equally critical of Lodi and the TI, and rightfully so.

Yes the DZ environment can influence an instructors behavior. But an instructor can choose their environment.

You can refuse to take students on back to backs without being given the chance to do a final adjustment before boarding the plane.

You can refuse to be an instructor at a DZ that has poor safety procedures, poor maintenance programs, won't give you go around, etc etc.

No one has a gun to your head when you choose a DZ, or when you leave the plane with your student.

I was what a DZO would call a bad instructor. I refused to do back to backs, spent time with the student before and after the jump, and never got on the plane without the lower half of the harness fully adjusted(leaving just a minor adjustment to back strap and shoulders on plane for comfort) The DZO hated this because it lowered my student count. But then I wasn't in it for the money, just for fun and helping the student get the most out of the experience. The TI's that actually pay their bills with jumps were always rushed and sometimes sloppy with the harness. I feel we need to slow the tandem mills down and worry more about the value to the student instead of the income from the student.

Mate if you let your student get on the plane with a harness that is not fully adjusted and ready to jump then you are a "bad instructor." there is no place for a student to be getting on a plane that is not ready to jump. A harness can not be properly fitted/adjusted once they are sitting. If you are leaving the top half loose for comfort that is poor form.

what I meant was the 2 shoulder adjustments would be a little loose when sitting and a quick snug when on the plane.the back strap, legs straps and chest strap fully adjusted the student was ready to go when getting on the plane short of my pulling down the shoulder adjustments (loose from sitting) and connecting the 4 attachmnents.


DougH  (D License)

Jun 4, 2012, 7:59 AM
Post #138 of 260 (1911 views)
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I just don't see how you can get it right while in the plane.

The shoulders are almost always loose when the student is seated. They hunch over in the plane and their length shortens a bit. If the adjustment was perfect on the MLW while outside of the plane and standing, and then you crank on it in the plane you are now over tightened.

If you crank them down in the plane while seated you are likely over tightening them and you end up with an uncomfortable student who is fighting the harness when they arch.

If you adjust it right while on the ground you don't have to touch the adjustments in the plane. I check that the leg straps didn't loosen up or slide down, I check the butt strap is still tight and in position.

Otherwise I never have to touch the MLW adjustment, or the diagonals. The strong manual specifically states to avoid adjustments in the plane.


(This post was edited by DougH on Jun 4, 2012, 8:01 AM)


marks2065  (D 18925)

Jun 4, 2012, 8:27 AM
Post #139 of 260 (1878 views)
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I just don't see how you can get it right while in the plane.

The shoulders are almost always loose when the student is seated. They hunch over in the plane and their length shortens a bit. If the adjustment was perfect on the MLW while outside of the plane and standing, and then you crank on it in the plane you are now over tightened.

If you crank them down in the plane while seated you are likely over tightening them and you end up with an uncomfortable student who is fighting the harness when they arch.

If you adjust it right while on the ground you don't have to touch the adjustments in the plane. I check that the leg straps didn't loosen up or slide down, I check the butt strap is still tight and in position.

Otherwise I never have to touch the MLW adjustment, or the diagonals. The strong manual specifically states to avoid adjustments in the plane.

Most of my tandems were done with stradle benches making it very easy to make upper adjustments. Like I said in my origonal post that I was usually a little to tight on the adjustments and maybe that did lead to some discomfort on the part of the student, but with my adjustments the TI here in question could have stood up and supported the student and walked out of the plane with no issues while carrying the student from the harness attachments. this entire debate and skydive would have never happened if he had me adjust the harness.


DougH  (D License)

Jun 4, 2012, 10:11 AM
Post #140 of 260 (1799 views)
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Re: [marks2065] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree 100% there Mark! I totally would had rather had an over tightened granny that can't arch versus fall out of the harness granny if those were my only two choices.

Luckily those aren't my only two choices, but I get what you are saying.




likearock  (D 24640)

Jun 5, 2012, 4:27 AM
Post #142 of 260 (1516 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

TI in question has 9k jumps, 3k tandems, and never had an issue with a student before this one.

This TI is in fact one of the most complete and completely competent parachutists I have known in my almost 40 years of parachuting.

So, Robin, what is the reason for only hooking up the passenger at 2 attachment points? Is there any possible explanation other than he just fucking forgot?


DougH  (D License)

Jun 5, 2012, 5:04 AM
Post #143 of 260 (1494 views)
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You don't simply "forget" to connect the uppers, you have to forget to do multiple things in order for that to happen:

1. Forget to tell your students on the ground the hook-up procedure.

I tell my students what happens at hook-up, and what they should expect to hear from me. I tell them each connection point that I am connecting. I have them ask me if they are connected.

2. Not having a personal rule to do a full harness, connection, and handle check before the door opens.

So not only did you forget to connect the uppers, but you have to be piss poor with your procedures on multiple jumps.

This is tandem course candidate level stuff here!

Check them and call it out to your students: Legs straps (& b12's if equipped), Belly Band, Chest Strap, Shoulders, Upper Connections Attached, Lower Connections Tight and Locked, Drogue, Primary, Secondary, Cutaway, Reserve, RSL. After which I tell the student that the equipment is ready. "Are you ready to skydive?"

Every single tandem jump, zero exceptions. If you can't do that on every single jump you shouldn't be jumping with peoples' loved ones. You aren't a professional, no matter how many tandems you have under your belt.

There really is zero excuse for this shit. No amount of fatigue, DZ atmosphere, etc etc can excuse leaving the plane with a student that isn't properly harnessed, leaving without having all connections attached, or leaving without doing a full equipment check before exit.


(This post was edited by DougH on Jun 5, 2012, 5:08 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Jun 5, 2012, 5:56 AM
Post #144 of 260 (1459 views)
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Quote:
Check them and call it out to your students: Legs straps (& b12's if equipped), Belly Band, Chest Strap, Shoulders, Upper Connections Attached, Lower Connections Tight and Locked, Drogue, Primary, Secondary, Cutaway, Reserve, RSL. After which I tell the student that the equipment is ready. "Are you ready to skydive?"
^This.
Every time.
No exceptions.

It's somewhat surprising the confidence it instills in most students when we go through the checks just like this too.
I usually say "NOW we're ready to skydive!" - same thing, only different.
Cool


Skyflyer3  (D License)

Jun 5, 2012, 6:05 AM
Post #145 of 260 (1448 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:

TI in question has 9k jumps, 3k tandems, and never had an issue with a student before this one.

This TI is in fact one of the most complete and completely competent parachutists I have known in my almost 40 years of parachuting.

So, Robin, what is the reason for only hooking up the passenger at 2 attachment points? Is there any possible explanation other than he just fucking forgot?

The laterals were connected. You can see in the video that they are clearly connected. It was just a horribly loose harness and the leg straps sliding down to her knees while fighting her in the door.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jun 5, 2012, 6:14 AM
Post #146 of 260 (1441 views)
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Add to that the lack of the back strap.
The one dangling during the boarding.
The one smacking the instructor during freefall.
Criminal negligence IMO.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Jun 5, 2012, 6:28 AM
Post #147 of 260 (1428 views)
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Quote:
Check them and call it out to your students: Legs straps (& b12's if equipped), Belly Band, Chest Strap, Shoulders, Upper Connections Attached, Lower Connections Tight and Locked, Drogue, Primary, Secondary, Cutaway, Reserve, RSL. After which I tell the student that the equipment is ready. "Are you ready to skydive?"
^This. Every time. No exceptions. It's somewhat surprising the confidence it instills in most students when we go through the checks just like this too. I usually say "NOW we're ready to skydive!" - same thing, only different. Cool
it's called a checklist.... and aviators have been using one, since wilbur and orville... I'm no tandem instructor, but have seen MANY come and go....If ya' can't envision and then USE such a checklist.... then you might ought to just stay a "fun jumper" and leave the REAL work to the guys/gals who are a bit more disciplined... no?????


(This post was edited by jimmytavino on Jun 5, 2012, 9:16 AM)


TheCaptain  (D License)

Jun 5, 2012, 6:58 AM
Post #148 of 260 (1402 views)
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In reply to:
Add to that the lack of the back strap.
The one dangling during the boarding.
The one smacking the instructor during freefall.
Criminal negligence IMO.

The backstrap is the only thing that kept her from falling completely out of the harness. The back strap is around the back of her neck.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jun 5, 2012, 7:19 AM
Post #149 of 260 (1380 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Add to that the lack of the back strap.
The one dangling during the boarding.
The one smacking the instructor during freefall.
Criminal negligence IMO.

The backstrap is the only thing that kept her from falling completely out of the harness. The back strap is around the back of her neck.

You sure that is not a diagonal?

There does seem to be a loose strap coming from the left hip junction and flapping up past the Primary/Instructor Drogue Release Handle.

The Student Warning panel is so distorted over her left shoulder that I think the right Diagonal is what might have saved her.

Matt


-ftp-

Jun 5, 2012, 7:25 AM
Post #150 of 260 (1378 views)
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Re: [Skyflyer3] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

TI in question has 9k jumps, 3k tandems, and never had an issue with a student before this one.

This TI is in fact one of the most complete and completely competent parachutists I have known in my almost 40 years of parachuting.

So, Robin, what is the reason for only hooking up the passenger at 2 attachment points? Is there any possible explanation other than he just fucking forgot?

The laterals were connected. You can see in the video that they are clearly connected. It was just a horribly loose harness and the leg straps sliding down to her knees while fighting her in the door.

JUST SPECULATION!

I think he might be referring to this
http://www.youtube.com/...9kfPrW9olbM&NR=1

again, just guessing.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jun 5, 2012, 7:32 AM
Post #151 of 260 (5114 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

That's what I see in the video as well.
Quite the draw on luck with the lateral causing the backpad to fold under and catch her head like it did.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Jun 5, 2012, 7:52 AM
Post #152 of 260 (5102 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

You sure that is not a diagonal?

There does seem to be a loose strap coming from the left hip junction and flapping up past the Primary/Instructor Drogue Release Handle.

The Student Warning panel is so distorted over her left shoulder that I think the right Diagonal is what might have saved her.

Matt
I would find it hard to believe that it is a loose diagnol strap. It truely appears like the backstrap, to me anyways. While the top of the harness is all contorted the bottom isn't and that strap behind her head appears to be to run from hip connecting point to hip connecting point. Also the loose strap seen while she is walking to the plane could be the kind of tightened back strap with the extra not stowed.


(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Jun 5, 2012, 7:59 AM)
Attachments: badtandem.JPG (31.0 KB)


Skyflyer3  (D License)

Jun 5, 2012, 7:58 AM
Post #153 of 260 (5092 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:

You sure that is not a diagonal?

There does seem to be a loose strap coming from the left hip junction and flapping up past the Primary/Instructor Drogue Release Handle.

The Student Warning panel is so distorted over her left shoulder that I think the right Diagonal is what might have saved her.

Matt
I would find it hard to believe that it is a loose diagnol strap. It truely appears like the backstrap.

It also looks like she's holding onto the TI's chest strap or the PAX harness pack pad. There's no way her neck alone would have held up to the opening shock.

That's why I don't buy her story that she didn't know she was in any danger or that the TI didn't force her out of the plane. I'm positive she was payed off.




matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jun 5, 2012, 9:28 AM
Post #155 of 260 (5027 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

You sure that is not a diagonal?

There does seem to be a loose strap coming from the left hip junction and flapping up past the Primary/Instructor Drogue Release Handle.

The Student Warning panel is so distorted over her left shoulder that I think the right Diagonal is what might have saved her.

Matt
I would find it hard to believe that it is a loose diagnol strap. It truely appears like the backstrap, to me anyways. While the top of the harness is all contorted the bottom isn't and that strap behind her head appears to be to run from hip connecting point to hip connecting point. Also the loose strap seen while she is walking to the plane could be the kind of tightened back strap with the extra not stowed.

I would have found it hard to believe some one would make an Instructional Jump adjusted like this, but it happened.

We would need a real large frame, slow high res play back, then maybe we can see what saved her life, but we know it wasn't the T-I ("I" used very loosely).

Matt








gowlerk  (C 3196)

Jun 5, 2012, 7:27 PM
Post #159 of 260 (4730 views)
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     Ok, everyone is quite upset at this event, and all kinds of things have been said about the TI. Obviously this is about as close to disaster as it gets without death. But I'm not completely convinced that the harness was all that loose.

Just for fun try harnessing a small person. Then have them sit on the floor and tuck their knees up to their chin and watch the legstraps slide up to their knees. I believe that is what happened in the door. This was likely a somewhat loose harness, but not too bad. Then in the struggle to exit when her bum went down and her knees went up she slid nearly out, and the TI did not notice.

This was caused by the usual chain of small events building up to near disaster. The lessons I take are that even a little loose is too loose. Also I suspect that the hip junction was too high, which may make the loop formed by the legstrap larger than it needs to be, allowing the sitting passenger to slide out even though the system may have appeared tight when she was standing, or even seated. And of course most of all this shows the need to be aware of what is going on even when you are busy in the door trying to exit. This is a tough one, but if the TI had seen what the harness was doing just before exit, he never would have left the aircraft.

I would encourage every TI to try and see what a harness can do when a passenger goes fetal like that. You may learn something. I'm sure the one in question here did.

Ken


brofromanomo  (D License)

Jun 7, 2012, 3:31 PM
Post #160 of 260 (4271 views)
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In reply to:

It also looks like she's holding onto the TI's chest strap or the PAX harness pack pad. There's no way her neck alone would have held up to the opening shock.

That's why I don't buy her story that she didn't know she was in any danger or that the TI didn't force her out of the plane. I'm positive she was payed off.

It definitely appears as though she is holding on to a strap while the TI & Videographer were attempting to readjust her leg straps.

As for her statement that she didn't know she was in any danger, I too find that VERY hard to believe. She had to feel like she was literally about ready to fall out the harness, it looks like she is holding on to a strap fro dear life, and she had to realize something was wrong when she was skydiving face-up. That being said, Bill Dause is both cheap and arrogant. "Bill has never made a mistake in all his life." I thus find it equally hard to believe that Bill Dause thinks HE or the drop zone did anything wrong which would require paying her off. So perhaps she is just in denial?

~Timmy


Skyflyer3  (D License)

Jun 7, 2012, 9:28 PM
Post #161 of 260 (4223 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
That being said, Bill Dause is both cheap and arrogant. "Bill has never made a mistake in all his life." I thus find it equally hard to believe that Bill Dause thinks HE or the drop zone did anything wrong which would require paying her off. So perhaps she is just in denial?

~Timmy

Yet another possibility.
In the end it doesn't matter.
The video speaks for itself.


swoopgaz  (E 1964)

Jun 8, 2012, 10:30 PM
Post #162 of 260 (3960 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok, everyone is quite upset at this event, and all kinds of things have been said about the TI. Obviously this is about as close to disaster as it gets without death. But I'm not completely convinced that the harness was all that loose.

Just for fun try harnessing a small person. Then have them sit on the floor and tuck their knees up to their chin and watch the legstraps slide up to their knees. I believe that is what happened in the door. This was likely a somewhat loose harness, but not too bad. Then in the struggle to exit when her bum went down and her knees went up she slid nearly out, and the TI did not notice.

This was caused by the usual chain of small events building up to near disaster. The lessons I take are that even a little loose is too loose. Also I suspect that the hip junction was too high, which may make the loop formed by the legstrap larger than it needs to be, allowing the sitting passenger to slide out even though the system may have appeared tight when she was standing, or even seated. And of course most of all this shows the need to be aware of what is going on even when you are busy in the door trying to exit. This is a tough one, but if the TI had seen what the harness was doing just before exit, he never would have left the aircraft.

I would encourage every TI to try and see what a harness can do when a passenger goes fetal like that. You may learn something. I'm sure the one in question here did.

Ken

That's my take on what happened here.

Once a student is in a feotal position where their knees are up at their chest like that, a properly adjusted harness can pull straight order the student like that, the student falls out the bottom. Properly
attached to the tandem master at the side adjusters will minimise this.

This is why bungees started appearing on sports rigs and now the 'Y' mod on student harnesses, to stop the leg straps moving forward to the knees creating a big hole in the back of the harness for the person to fall out through.

IMO With the passenger stuck in the door, knees at her chest the tm has inadvertently pull the harness over her head trying to roll her out the door. Remember she wasn't refusing in the door.


hangdiver  (D License)

Jun 9, 2012, 8:48 AM
Post #163 of 260 (3876 views)
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Quote:
I would encourage every TI to try and see what a harness can do when a passenger goes fetal like that. You may learn something. I'm sure the one in question here did.

+1...I also encourage TIs to try this with an experienced jumper...you might be surprised...

I can take off any sport rig I've ever jumped in 1 second going fetal...over my head...it freaks people out.
you can fall out of most any harness under the right/wrong conditions...I'm not making excuses for this TI...but a disaster is only one jump away for all of us...what can...will go wrong...

eta: once the leg straps go up the legs to the knees all bets are off...period!

hangdiver


(This post was edited by hangdiver on Jun 9, 2012, 8:52 AM)


dride

Jun 11, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #164 of 260 (3542 views)
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"Remember she wasn't refusing in the door."

That's a load of BS. You clearly see her say "NO" several times. I dont care what she says on the ground in her post interview. She was scared shitless and didn't want to jump. The TI forced her out of the door...period.


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Oct 6, 2012, 7:06 AM
Post #165 of 260 (3102 views)
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http://www.ktvu.com/...y-woman-nearl/nSTgz/

"LODI, Calif. — More than a year and half has passed since a video of the skydiving grandmother who nearly fell out of her harness went viral on YouTube, and now a Northern California professional parachutist is now being fined.

In May, 2011, 80-year-old Laverne Everett went skydiving in Lodi for her birthday and though she was attached to a professional parachutist, the video shows her legs slipping out of the harness.
The Federal Aviation Administration told KTVU that the skydiving professional, Dennis McGlynn, is being fined $2,200 for violating federal aviation regulations, namely improperly fitting the harness and exiting the aircraft improperly.
To this day, Everett maintains she was not injured and didn't blame anyone, but after a relative uploaded the video to the Internet a year later, the video went viral.
Not only was the incident not suppressed by the company, it was recorded on video by another person and Everett was given her own copy of it. The video didn't surface on the Internet until a year later.

After the incident, many people, including Everett, said it was being overblown.

"She didn't have any idea what was going on," said Bill Dause of the Parachute Center. "(She) had a very good time and still is interested in jumping again at some point in time."

"They thought I was very brave, but it's just something I've wanted to do for a long time," Everett said. "Once you get on that edge that's another story. My upper harness came off. You know, it just slipped down."

Dause said the incident made kind of a big splash. "Unfortunately some of the information was misleading or incorrect," he said.

Everett even said she wasn't forced out of the airplane, Dause said, and there was no way she could have fallen out the harness or she would have."


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 6, 2012, 10:21 AM
Post #166 of 260 (3008 views)
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Quote:
and there was no way she could have fallen out the harness or she would


Horse Shit!!!


DougH  (D License)

Oct 6, 2012, 2:00 PM
Post #167 of 260 (2902 views)
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In reply to:

Dause said the incident made kind of a big splash. "Unfortunately some of the information was misleading or incorrect," he said.

Everett even said she wasn't forced out of the airplane, Dause said, and there was no way she could have fallen out the harness or she would have."

Mr. Dause you are a filthy fucking liar.


dorbie

Oct 11, 2012, 3:11 PM
Post #168 of 260 (2293 views)
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In reply to:
Dause said, and there was no way she could have fallen out the harness or she would have."

If he said that and he believes that then he should sell his rigs and take up bowling. Maybe he can run a bowling alley instead.


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Oct 11, 2012, 4:18 PM
Post #169 of 260 (2242 views)
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In reply to:
The Federal Aviation Administration told KTVU that the skydiving professional, Dennis McGlynn, is being fined $2,200 for violating federal aviation regulations, namely improperly fitting the harness and exiting the aircraft improperly.

Same dude that used to make the Vision Velcro container? Or just the same name?


Liemberg  (Student)

Oct 11, 2012, 4:27 PM
Post #170 of 260 (2234 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Since I have a lousy memory and no gusto whatsoever to re-read the whole thread, please enlighten me on the sequence of things: In the past a paraplegic and an obese woman fell out of a tandem-passengers harness on two seperate occasions. Was this BEFORE or AFTER granny went skydiving at Bill Dause's fine establishment?

Were there not improvements mandatory installed in the passengers harness of at least one tandem-manufacturer and available for equipment from other manufacturers, including the system that was used in the jump in question?

Being on another side of an ocean and myself retired from the skydiving business I can fully sympathize with anyone willing to run an asylum for decades in a row before the lunatics take over so I don't have an axe to grind with mr. Dause but it is my opinion that once you have to resort to plain stupidity in explaining things to the press you tend to lose your credibility and more important: your integrity.

Not a pleasant thing to watch.


The_Don  (B License)

Oct 11, 2012, 6:17 PM
Post #171 of 260 (2156 views)
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Both before granny.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Oct 11, 2012, 8:33 PM
Post #172 of 260 (2084 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The Federal Aviation Administration told KTVU that the skydiving professional, Dennis McGlynn, is being fined $2,200 for violating federal aviation regulations, namely improperly fitting the harness and exiting the aircraft improperly.

Same dude that used to make the Vision Velcro container? Or just the same name?

I think the answer is Yes, same guy. Why? what is the relevance?

Matt


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 12, 2012, 12:03 PM
Post #173 of 260 (1765 views)
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In reply to:
The Federal Aviation Administration told KTVU that the skydiving professional, Dennis McGlynn, is being fined $2,200 for violating federal aviation regulations, namely improperly fitting the harness and exiting the aircraft improperly.

This may be a bit off topic, but.....
What power does the FAA have to enforce this fine or to collect? Just courious?Cool


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 12, 2012, 3:35 PM
Post #174 of 260 (1667 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The Federal Aviation Administration told KTVU that the skydiving professional, Dennis McGlynn, is being fined $2,200 for violating federal aviation regulations, namely improperly fitting the harness and exiting the aircraft improperly.

This may be a bit off topic, but.....
What power does the FAA have to enforce this fine or to collect? Just courious?Cool

I'm guessing they could yank his medical certificate.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Oct 12, 2012, 4:18 PM
Post #175 of 260 (1643 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
The Federal Aviation Administration told KTVU that the skydiving professional, Dennis McGlynn, is being fined $2,200 for violating federal aviation regulations, namely improperly fitting the harness and exiting the aircraft improperly.

This may be a bit off topic, but.....
What power does the FAA have to enforce this fine or to collect? Just courious?Cool

I'm guessing they could yank his medical certificate.

They file a suit in court, he then loses far more than 2500~ bucks.

Matt


dorbie

Oct 12, 2012, 5:10 PM
Post #176 of 260 (54433 views)
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In reply to:
I don't have an axe to grind with mr. Dause but it is my opinion that once you have to resort to plain stupidity in explaining things to the press you tend to lose your credibility and more important: your integrity.

Not a pleasant thing to watch.

If he said it, he may have had the whuffo audience in mind and not the skydiver audience.

But if we assume he is a man of honor and take him at his word it is a very troubling remark indeed. People are known to be capable of holding such foolish beliefs.

NASA engineers used to examine Shuttle booster O-Rings and call the remaining rubber that survived burn-through/blow-by their "safety margin" when in fact it was a failure. Then the Challenger blew up.

Does Dause really believe what he said? If so it should be corrected. SOMEBODY needs to talk to the guy.


(This post was edited by dorbie on Oct 12, 2012, 5:12 PM)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Oct 12, 2012, 5:14 PM
Post #177 of 260 (54428 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The Federal Aviation Administration told KTVU that the skydiving professional, Dennis McGlynn, is being fined $2,200 for violating federal aviation regulations, namely improperly fitting the harness and exiting the aircraft improperly.

This may be a bit off topic, but.....
What power does the FAA have to enforce this fine or to collect? Just courious?Cool

Power? They are the FAA. They have the power to isssue citations (tickets). Those citations have the same authority and penalties for not paying or showing up in court as any other law enforcement agency. A lot of people seem to think that because they don't have an airman's certificate for the FAA to pull, that there's nothing the FAA can do to them.
Not true.

Interestingly, I can't find anywhere that this authority is spelled out, at least not with a quick search.


dorbie

Oct 12, 2012, 5:15 PM
Post #178 of 260 (54425 views)
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In reply to:
Both before granny.

Maybe they should invent the tandem sack instead of a tandem harness. I hear it's saved at least one wingsuiter.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Oct 12, 2012, 7:08 PM
Post #179 of 260 (54381 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't have an axe to grind with mr. Dause but it is my opinion that once you have to resort to plain stupidity in explaining things to the press you tend to lose your credibility and more important: your integrity.

Not a pleasant thing to watch.

If he said it, he may have had the whuffo audience in mind and not the skydiver audience.

But if we assume he is a man of honor and take him at his word it is a very troubling remark indeed. People are known to be capable of holding such foolish beliefs.

NASA engineers used to examine Shuttle booster O-Rings and call the remaining rubber that survived burn-through/blow-by their "safety margin" when in fact it was a failure. Then the Challenger blew up.

Does Dause really believe what he said? If so it should be corrected. SOMEBODY needs to talk to the guy.
In reply to:


I would wonder if Bill ever said that. I would also wonder if the reporter put words in Bill's mouth....but ....no way......that has NEVER happened. I would believe it if it was said, uninterupted, on video.....otherwise, not.


nutellaontoast  (A 55700)

Oct 12, 2012, 8:12 PM
Post #180 of 260 (54359 views)
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Quote:
Does Dause really believe what he said? If so it should be corrected. SOMEBODY needs to talk to the guy.

Yes, be sure to bring that up with him next time you see him!


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Oct 13, 2012, 6:14 AM
Post #181 of 260 (54264 views)
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In reply to:
I think the answer is Yes, same guy. Why? what is the relevance?

Matt

I was just curious, but if there is relevance it's that this wasn't some 500 jump chump with 3 years in the sport and a brand new rating and if it can happen to a guy with that kind of experience it could probably happen to any of us.


LyraM45  (B 26378)

Oct 13, 2012, 6:25 AM
Post #182 of 260 (54258 views)
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Quote:
I would wonder if Bill ever said that. I would also wonder if the reporter put words in Bill's mouth....but ....no way......that has NEVER happened. I would believe it if it was said, uninterupted, on video.....otherwise, not.

It was on video. Take a look at the news stories just out the other day:

http://www.ktvu.com/...r-mishap-last/vff3Y/


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 13, 2012, 6:58 AM
Post #183 of 260 (54247 views)
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Quote:
I would wonder if Bill ever said that. I would also wonder if the reporter put words in Bill's mouth....but ....no way......that has NEVER happened. I would believe it if it was said, uninterupted, on video.....otherwise, not.

Ok, so it's on video, and you were provided a link. How about now, do you believe he said it?

The amount of leeway some jumpers are willing to give a guy who routinely puts their lives in danger is incredible. I bet you think the FAA made up all that stuff about ignored safety checks and expired control cables, right? Do you need to see that on video? How about the fuel pump inpsection that brought down his Kng Air up in Canada, do I need to get a video of that inspection not being done (if that's even possible)?

Wake up man, the guy is living in his own little world, and that's great fun until 21 of you end up dead all at once. If Bill isn't on that plane, he'll either fire up antoher one and keep up 'business' as usual, or he'll sell the rest of them and disappear with a pile of cash and live out his days any way he pleases. Meanwhile, 20+ jumpers will be dead, and 20+ families will be broken, and untold lives will be effected.

Does is register with you that the only supporters he has are the local Lodi jumpers? Where are the other jumpers coming to his aid, and saying what a great guy he is? Why is it that so many people with no dog in the NorCal market look at the situation and see nothing but trouble brewing? What about the idea that people with no dog in that market even know about the happenings at Lodi? You realize that without the media coverage there would be no info for us to consider when coming to a conclusion, right? I'm sure there are 10 DZs in NoCal that I've never even heard of, and that's because they're not fucking up so bad that DZ.com and the national media is always covering them.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Oct 13, 2012, 7:51 AM
Post #184 of 260 (54221 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
I would wonder if Bill ever said that. I would also wonder if the reporter put words in Bill's mouth....but ....no way......that has NEVER happened. I would believe it if it was said, uninterupted, on video.....otherwise, not.

It was on video. Take a look at the news stories just out the other day:

http://www.ktvu.com/...r-mishap-last/vff3Y/

IMO: He willingly and openly lied, and now there is a permanent record of it for future lawsuits. Which in my opinion are just bound to happen, again. Our sport, is being done serious harm by our own lazy and money grabbing members.

Matt


LyraM45  (B 26378)

Oct 13, 2012, 10:25 AM
Post #185 of 260 (54180 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I would wonder if Bill ever said that. I would also wonder if the reporter put words in Bill's mouth....but ....no way......that has NEVER happened. I would believe it if it was said, uninterupted, on video.....otherwise, not.

Ok, so it's on video, and you were provided a link. How about now, do you believe he said it?

The amount of leeway some jumpers are willing to give a guy who routinely puts their lives in danger is incredible. I bet you think the FAA made up all that stuff about ignored safety checks and expired control cables, right? Do you need to see that on video? How about the fuel pump inpsection that brought down his Kng Air up in Canada, do I need to get a video of that inspection not being done (if that's even possible)?

I've actually had locals tell me everybody is misinformed, doesn't understand what really happened, and the FAA is just out to get Bill. (This isn't just in regard to the tandem thing-- this also goes back with the other FAA fines over the past few years)

I ask how they know this, and they said because Bill and the pilots say so. Laugh


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 13, 2012, 1:58 PM
Post #186 of 260 (54114 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
The Federal Aviation Administration told KTVU that the skydiving professional, Dennis McGlynn, is being fined $2,200 for violating federal aviation regulations, namely improperly fitting the harness and exiting the aircraft improperly.

This may be a bit off topic, but.....
What power does the FAA have to enforce this fine or to collect? Just courious?Cool

Power? They are the FAA. They have the power to isssue citations (tickets). Those citations have the same authority and penalties for not paying or showing up in court as any other law enforcement agency. A lot of people seem to think that because they don't have an airman's certificate for the FAA to pull, that there's nothing the FAA can do to them.
Not true.

Interestingly, I can't find anywhere that this authority is spelled out, at least not with a quick search.

The FAA is not a “law enforcement agency”. They are a regulatory agency. The FAR’s are regulation not laws. They are part of Title 14 of the CFR’s. The FFA’s power of enforcement is through the US District Courts. See FAR Part 13.16.

Sparky


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Oct 13, 2012, 3:33 PM
Post #187 of 260 (54090 views)
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Thanks. FAR 13.16
That's what I was looking for.

I know that the FAA isn't a law enforcement agency. But the citations they write (civil forfeitures) have the same authority and penalties for ignoring them as those written by a real law enforcement agency.

And yes, they are regs, not laws. So the penalties are going to be fines, not jail time.
But ignoring the citations the FAA issues will get someone into serious trouble, including possible jail time (the jail time isn't for violating the reg, it's for failing to pay the fine).


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 13, 2012, 6:17 PM
Post #188 of 260 (54034 views)
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Quote:
And yes, they are regs, not laws. So the penalties are going to be fines, not jail time.
But ignoring the citations the FAA issues will get someone into serious trouble, including possible jail time (the jail time isn't for violating the reg, it's for failing to pay the fine).


Um.... yea, if you violate enough of those reg's you can do jail time, period! I know a pilot who did prison time for doing so, it had nothing to do with any fines. I also met in person with the DOT cops, yes they have DOT cops, or special investigative units, these are officers of the law they carry guns, badges and handcuffs on their person and they can and will arrest you and throw in jail.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Oct 13, 2012, 9:21 PM
Post #189 of 260 (53985 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the reply Dave......I did just watch the video, and did not hear Bill Dause say that the harness was adjusted correctly....we all know it was not...duh....I did notice though, that it had an edit in the middle....I was looking for an "uninterupted" video if you recall. I don't think you will find one....The mistake was made by an independent contractor, like yourself, who should be punished for what "he did", just like you would and should be if you put a customer in harms way....Let me know if you have video of Bill saying the harness was properly adjusted....Thanks again for your time.


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Oct 13, 2012, 10:06 PM
Post #190 of 260 (53961 views)
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Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

So here is a question, I heard USPA/UPT revoked his TI rating? Correct or incorrect?

The other two TI's that had people fall out of harnesses before this one, did they get their ratings pulled or are they still jumping tandems?


(This post was edited by SEREJumper on Oct 13, 2012, 10:06 PM)


stratostar  (Student)

Oct 13, 2012, 11:30 PM
Post #191 of 260 (53940 views)
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I know one of them personally, he handed in his ratings on his own accord after the event. Later I believe they were returned without his requesting. I don't believe has done or still jumps tdm. But I don't know for sure.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 14, 2012, 6:41 AM
Post #192 of 260 (17520 views)
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Quote:
did not hear Bill Dause say that the harness was adjusted correctly....we all know it was not...duh....I did notice though, that it had an edit in the middle....I was looking for an "uninterupted" video if you recall.

All I recall is what I read, and what I read was that the quote that was in question was where he said that, 'There was no way she could have fallen out of the harness, or she would have'. That clearly appears on the video linked, and was the reason that link was provided, to clear up the issue of if he did, or did not, say that.

In terms of him suggesting the harness was correctly adjusted, I'm not sure he ever made that claim or if it was ever called into question. The incident itself proves that the harness was not adjusted correctly.

That said, the quote was real, and a lie. People can and have fallen out of harnesses before. There was no 'fail safe' in place to ensure that you cannot fall out of a harness, short of proper adjustment. As proper adjustment was clearly not present, there was indeed, nothing to prevent her from falling out of the harness, despite what Bill said.

You can try, but you're fighting a losing battle. Sure the guy was an independent contractor, but in that case Bill is the general contractor, and it's his responsibility to select good contractors and oversee their work. Let's be honest, however, we all know that the IC status is onyl in place for the sake making it easy for the DZ to employ workers without providing workmans comp, or paying into social security. At the end of the day, it's Bill's DZ, he the boss, and he's in charge of everything that happens.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Oct 14, 2012, 8:36 AM
Post #193 of 260 (1624 views)
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IIFC; One lost all Tandem ratings pulled by the Manufacturers, the Other turned his in prior to the manufacturers acting, he even turned in his USPA rating.

After one incident, a DZ shut down or was sold, filling for or hiding behind bankruptcy proceedings, Strong had to do a similar thing. The T-I was in the suit and then was dropped, no money to get from him.

One incident was a similar to the near incident in Lodi, an environment of complacent actions and individuals, from the top down.

The Other, a bad scenario that happened in the plane, all traced to being preventable by sticking to a previous procedure that had worked.

Matt


LyraM45  (B 26378)

Oct 14, 2012, 1:40 PM
Post #194 of 260 (1544 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for the reply Dave......I did just watch the video, and did not hear Bill Dause say that the harness was adjusted correctly....we all know it was not...duh....I did notice though, that it had an edit in the middle....I was looking for an "uninterupted" video if you recall. I don't think you will find one....The mistake was made by an independent contractor, like yourself, who should be punished for what "he did", just like you would and should be if you put a customer in harms way....Let me know if you have video of Bill saying the harness was properly adjusted....Thanks again for your time.

The debate was never over him saying anything about the harness being adjusted properly. A few times during this whole thread, and your post which has started the back and forth with dave, was in regard to "she couldn't have fallen out of the harness, because if she could have, she would have." The video was linked to him saying that uninterrupted.

I think it's pretty cut and dry that her harness was not fitted properly. And I think it's pretty obvious that she could have fallen out of her harness. So, the quote in question has people scratching their heads a bit.




mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 15, 2012, 10:48 PM
Post #196 of 260 (1219 views)
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In reply to:
So here is a question, I heard USPA/UPT revoked his TI rating? Correct or incorrect?

The other two TI's that had people fall out of harnesses before this one, did they get their ratings pulled or are they still jumping tandems?

This thread is not about what happened to other TI’s. It’s about this TI.

Sparky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhVoLMWH6hk


hangdiver  (D License)

Oct 16, 2012, 12:47 PM
Post #197 of 260 (1073 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think the answer is Yes, same guy. Why? what is the relevance?

Matt

I was just curious, but if there is relevance it's that this wasn't some 500 jump chump with 3 years in the sport and a brand new rating and if it can happen to a guy with that kind of experience it could probably happen to any of us.

That is the point of this entire incident. All of you tandem instructors are only one jump away from something happening that you thought was impossible.

I will tell you all that fat will squish through a harness that was adjusted properly on the ground.

Say what you want...this was no FNG...armchair quarterbacks are a dime a dozen...when shit hits the fan he did all he could to save her life...and he succeeded and now all you button pushers think you know what happened from a video as well as the FAA.

hangdiver


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Oct 16, 2012, 1:12 PM
Post #198 of 260 (1052 views)
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In reply to:
I will tell you all that fat will squish through a harness that was adjusted properly on the ground.

Are you claiming this harness was properly adjusted on the ground? If so, you're full of shit because there's video proof it wasn't even close.

If that harness was properly adjusted on the ground this thread wouldn't even be alive and you wouldn't have to be backing up your idiot friend who almost killed someone's family member. Plain and simple.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 16, 2012, 1:41 PM
Post #199 of 260 (1038 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

>I will tell you all that fat will squish through a harness that was adjusted properly on the ground.

No it won't. You can adjust a harness so that what you saw on that video is impossible. You will indeed get squish, mainly on opening - all that fat will allow the legstraps to dig far into their butts/thighs and they will hang down much lower than normal.

But if your tandem harnesses really allow someone to escape during an exit - you're doing it wrong.

>when shit hits the fan he did all he could to save her life...

Yes, he did - good for him.

But that's akin to a pilot who, through his own carelessness, runs out of gas and has to land on a highway, narrowly avoiding all traffic. Yes, he was a good pilot AFTER he ran out of gas. But he was such a bad pilot before that that losing his rating is a very real possibility.


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 16, 2012, 1:58 PM
Post #200 of 260 (1029 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

I will tell you all that fat will squish through a harness that was adjusted properly on the ground.


In reply to:

I too disagree, way to many squishy tandems have been done without similar results.


raff

Oct 16, 2012, 4:15 PM
Post #201 of 260 (3666 views)
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In reply to:
>I will tell you all that fat will squish through a harness that was adjusted properly on the ground.

No it won't. You can adjust a harness so that what you saw on that video is impossible. You will indeed get squish, mainly on opening - all that fat will allow the legstraps to dig far into their butts/thighs and they will hang down much lower than normal.

But if your tandem harnesses really allow someone to escape during an exit - you're doing it wrong.

>when shit hits the fan he did all he could to save her life...

Yes, he did - good for him.

But that's akin to a pilot who, through his own carelessness, runs out of gas and has to land on a highway, narrowly avoiding all traffic. Yes, he was a good pilot AFTER he ran out of gas. But he was such a bad pilot before that that losing his rating is a very real possibility.
+++


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 16, 2012, 5:22 PM
Post #202 of 260 (3635 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing he was able to do kept that woman in that harness. Dumb luck kept her from dying.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Oct 16, 2012, 7:54 PM
Post #203 of 260 (3607 views)
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In reply to:
Nothing he was able to do kept that woman in that harness. Dumb luck kept her from dying.

I gotta kinda disagree with you here Spence... I felt this 80 year old woman faught like hell to save her own life!!! Nothing "Dumb Luck" about it. She's one tough, determined, spunky old gal! You go girl. Wink


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Oct 16, 2012, 8:55 PM
Post #204 of 260 (3588 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Nothing he was able to do kept that woman in that harness. Dumb luck kept her from dying.

I gotta kinda disagree with you here Spence... I felt this 80 year old woman faught like hell to save her own life!!! Nothing "Dumb Luck" about it. She's one tough, determined, spunky old gal! You go girl. Wink

Sorry, I saw an early interview where she said she had no idea there was a problem. Her story changed over time.


dorbie

Oct 18, 2012, 11:20 PM
Post #205 of 260 (3401 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
Does Dause really believe what he said? If so it should be corrected. SOMEBODY needs to talk to the guy.

Yes, be sure to bring that up with him next time you see him!

I didn't generate the predicament, he's taken a bad situation and made it much worse with that remark.

He has a granny hanging from a harness by her bunched clothing and he says "there's no way she could've fallen out of the harness or she would have".

Some people really are this dumb, they lack analytical skills and use irrational post hoc reasoning that makes no sense.

Dause forces us to conclude he's either a liar or a complacent fool incapable of learning a critical safety lesson.

Why should we assume he's a liar? From a safety perspective that's a dangerous assumption.


nutellaontoast  (A 55700)

Oct 19, 2012, 10:53 AM
Post #206 of 260 (3258 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill Dause is a complicated kooky old man. Simple words like liar, ignorant, mean, wreckless, kind, greedy, generous etc do not have any meaning with him.

The idea that you might try and understand him is far fetched. The idea that you will "educate" him is absurd.

Do some searching or talk to some people that've spend time in and around Lodi, and start enjoying Bill for the wild circus over which you've no control that he is. Continuing to stress out about the logic or lack thereof behind his decisions will not help you. Believing that there is anyway to influence those decision will eventually drive you insane.


(This post was edited by nutellaontoast on Oct 19, 2012, 11:41 AM)


pirana  (D 30661)

Oct 19, 2012, 11:47 AM
Post #207 of 260 (3226 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
<snip> There should have been 2 fired staff members there.

These guys work for Bill Dause. Chances are he's fired them both numerous times already. Just sayin... ;)

I'll bet he's the only guy in the biz to fire and rehire himself.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 19, 2012, 9:35 PM
Post #208 of 260 (3070 views)
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In reply to:
Bill Dause is a complicated kooky old man. Simple words like liar, ignorant, mean, wreckless, kind, greedy, generous etc do not have any meaning with him.

The idea that you might try and understand him is far fetched. The idea that you will "educate" him is absurd.

Do some searching or talk to some people that've spend time in and around Lodi, and start enjoying Bill for the wild circus over which you've no control that he is. Continuing to stress out about the logic or lack thereof behind his decisions will not help you. Believing that there is anyway to influence those decision will eventually drive you insane.

All that gibberish doesn’t make what he does any less dangerous.

Sparky


airdvr  (D 10977)

Oct 20, 2012, 8:17 AM
Post #209 of 260 (2994 views)
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Re: [nutellaontoast] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Problem with these types is they are in charge and surrounded by yes men. They've lost all concept of right v. wrong and the moral compass is broken.


LyraM45  (B 26378)

Oct 21, 2012, 6:37 AM
Post #210 of 260 (2862 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Bill Dause is a complicated kooky old man. Simple words like liar, ignorant, mean, wreckless, kind, greedy, generous etc do not have any meaning with him.

The idea that you might try and understand him is far fetched. The idea that you will "educate" him is absurd.

Do some searching or talk to some people that've spend time in and around Lodi, and start enjoying Bill for the wild circus over which you've no control that he is. Continuing to stress out about the logic or lack thereof behind his decisions will not help you. Believing that there is anyway to influence those decision will eventually drive you insane.

All that gibberish doesn’t make what he does any less dangerous.

Sparky

This!!!

'nuff said!


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 21, 2012, 7:13 AM
Post #211 of 260 (2856 views)
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In reply to:
I will tell you all that fat will squish through a harness that was adjusted properly on the ground.


In reply to:

I too disagree, way to many squishy tandems have been done without similar results.
having a big booty in the back (and there's quite a few of 'em making tandems these days) increases the chance of something like this. Leg straps adjusted to fit a big set of thighs can then be slid down the legs under the right circumstances, especially if there's even a little slack in the harness. When I get an ample passenger, I reach for the harness that has the Y-strap mod.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Oct 23, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #212 of 260 (2636 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

...and why the mfg's are discussing the Y-mod and whether it should be mandated.

IMHO, it should be... though my time as TI was before it came out.

JW


nutellaontoast  (A 55700)

Oct 25, 2012, 1:11 PM
Post #213 of 260 (2412 views)
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Quote:
All that gibberish doesn’t make what he does any less dangerous.

Thanks for calling what I wrote gibberish.

I don't think Dause is particularly safe. Although he did ban swooping way ahead of the curve. Someone told me once he was also the first to start using square reserves, but I never checked up on that.

good talk!






johnny1488  (D 25453)

Oct 28, 2012, 7:20 PM
Post #216 of 260 (1885 views)
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If they make the y mod mandatory, bad instructors will find a way to fuck that up too. No one was ever dropped out of the old v2 or strong harnesses. Only the new better designed ones. Y mods won't solve the problem because the harness IS NOT the problem.






















Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Oct 30, 2012, 8:20 PM
Post #227 of 260 (4097 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

There are only 2 dropzones in the country that I would actively recommend a random friend or acquaintance to avoid going to do a tandem at. One is Lodi. Their plane issues are well known. But I have only been there once ever and that was about 10 years ago. From what i understand they have a whatever tm shows up and wants to jump can take people up and go. I may be wrong but that's what I have heard.

I was there for a crw boogie 10 or so years ago. Most of the people I were jumping with were locals. We were standing in a group waiting for the beach 99 I believe while a group of freefallers were waiting for an otter. The otter arrived first. It landed upwind on the runway at the same time a civilian plane was landing downwind on the same runway. The otter was in the right as far as landing direction, but it swerved off the runway and the planes didn't miss each other by more 20 feet. It was close. The otter pulled up and everyone boarded and then a tm and his passenger ran up after the steps were gone. The tm tossed the tandem rig into the plane, and then both he and the passenger hopped in. I watched as the otter then took off downwind with the door open with the tm putting on the rig while standing in an openShocked door on takeoff. I was absolutely horrified after watching this but none of the regulars even seemed to blink an eye or even notice this. That shocked me more than anything.

At that point if someone is an experienced jumper I will tell them the truth about Lodi but its their call. I live in Texas so it's rarely an issue for me, but when it comes up on rare occasions of a friend wanting to do a tandem in California, that is the only place I tell them never to go to.

I think I was more shocked at how routine everyone there found the events than the events themselves.










airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 30, 2012, 11:42 PM
Post #232 of 260 (4037 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

sound like he's trying to save a buck anywhere he can, but at the same time, he's charging what have to be the lowest jump prices on earth (literally).


In reply to:

Always have been, years ago I heard someone at 'sniore sayin' how the prices at Lodi were to die for.












Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 4, 2012, 9:10 AM
Post #238 of 260 (3512 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Enough with the general Lodi-bashing. If you want to do that start another thread in General, and leave this thread for discussing this specific incident.


hangdiver  (D License)

May 6, 2014, 9:51 PM
Post #239 of 260 (3206 views)
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Re: [billvon] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Bump...



I hear from a reliable source the FAA made a decision...anybody here know what they decided?


hangdiver


(This post was edited by hangdiver on May 6, 2014, 9:53 PM)


katzas

May 7, 2014, 5:43 AM
Post #240 of 260 (2921 views)
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fcajump wrote:
Unfortunatly Tandem is seen as the cash-cow that keeps the lights on at many DZ's. But that can dry up quick if we don't take safety seriously.

Many here (USA) and elsewhere have poo-poo'ed the UK model of gear checks before loading. Yet, a basic "ready to exit" gear check would keep this sh!t from happening. I saw the cheepest, penny-pincher DZO ground his plane pull every one out and chew the asses for 20 minuts one day for an instructor running to board with leg straps dangling. For all the critisizm of his DZ, no one got on his planes unless they were ready to exit.

My other suggestion would be a quick additional segment added to the manditory (for Vector/Sigma DZ's) Bill Booth "Intro to Tandem" video that shows the tandem student two things:
1. what a loose v/s snug harness looks like.
2. where the 4 primary connections are.
And a you are NOT "ready to skydive" unless these things are correct.

I would also argue that no TI should exit unless their student agrees that they are "ready to skydive."
They say "no" you sit the fuck down.
They paid their money, they may know something you don't know (loose harness, chicken out, splinter in their eye), its their choice to say NO.
You want to circle once and give them a chance to explain why they said 'no' and a chance to correct the problem and try again, great! Good costomer service, but that's your DZO's choice. Want to issue them a refund if they balk, OK... again your choice.

But if they say "NO", that's their choice.

(sorry, really sore subject with me that this video only made worse)

[/rant]

JW

It there is ever a time when "NO" means NO it's when somebody in the door says it. The gal didn't want to go--and we will probably never know her reason--but she was absolutely right. Glad she made it.


tonyhays  (D 26336)

May 8, 2014, 4:01 AM
Post #241 of 260 (2525 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

What were they deciding on?


topdocker  (D 12018)

May 8, 2014, 9:04 AM
Post #242 of 260 (2262 views)
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Re: [tonyhays] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

tonyhays wrote:
What were they deciding on?

My sources tell me it was tossed out.

top


andybobolson  (B 35696)

May 8, 2014, 8:09 PM
Post #243 of 260 (1963 views)
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Here is the complaint, which sought to impose a fine of $2,200: http://www.regulations.gov/...&contentType=pdf. The complaint was dismissed at the request of the FAA on May 5th. Here is the order dismissing the complaint: http://www.regulations.gov/...&contentType=pdf. You can view all of the documents pertaining to the matter here: http://www.regulations.gov/...po=0;D=FAA-2013-0615.


hangdiver  (D License)

May 8, 2014, 8:44 PM
Post #244 of 260 (1942 views)
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Re: [andybobolson] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Thanks for the file...

I guess the USPA was full of shit printing he paid a fine...well all you tandem guys have this as a precedence...that you can't be fined for saving someones life...when the plan goes to shit.

You're a fighter Dennis...you never give up...kudos to you Bro...


hangdiver


1001001sos  (C 1234567890)

May 8, 2014, 9:51 PM
Post #245 of 260 (1897 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

hangdiver wrote:
Thanks for the file...

I guess the USPA was full of shit printing he paid a fine...well all you tandem guys have this as a precedence...that you can't be fined for saving someones life...when the plan goes to shit.

You're a fighter Dennis...you never give up...kudos to you Bro...


hangdiver

Wouldn't be the first time they were full of it. Sure won't be the last either.


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 9, 2014, 4:40 AM
Post #246 of 260 (1727 views)
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Re: [andybobolson] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

From his Answer to Complaint: (my emphasis)

Quote:
Dennis McGlynn admits that the parachutist slipped in the student harness; denies that the leg straps were at her calves; makes no answer to the allegation "near her calves" as that term is not defined; denies that the bottom strap was at her neck and makes no answer to the allegation that it was "near her neck" as that term is not defined. Dennis McGlynn admits that the student parachutist was in an unusual position until landing.
6. Dennis McGlynn denies that the manner in which he conducted the jump was improper; denies that the manner in which he conducted the jump increased the likelihood that the student parachutist would slip from the harness and free-fall to the ground and denies that he in any way caused a hazard to persons and/or property on the ground.

Dennis is an _______ (fill in the blank as you wish).
Good skydiving lawyer though, it looks like. (Fred Morelli)

Interestingly, the FAA was willing to bring in a big name from UPT:
In reply to:
The Agency anticipates calling Mark Procos, General Manager, with Uninsured United Parachute Technologies, LLC (UPT) as a non-party witness at hearing. UPT manufactured the
tandem harness used in the skydive here.

He was to be subpoenaed, given that it was confirmed that he would be available on the dates planned for the hearing - indicating some willingness of UPT to be involved in the matter.

In Dennis' Answer to Discovery, one section was:

[Edit: see attachment. Inline photo works in Preview but not when posted to this Forum.]
(The document referred to is not included online as far as I noticed.)

The FAA's original complaints were based on (a) a tandem person in command must use the harness position prescribed by the tandem equipment manufacturer, and (b) the air reg about not creating a hazard to persons or property on the surface.

Whatever one's thoughts on the degree to which the FAA should be breathing down our necks, I bet Dennis hasn't had fun becoming a youtube star, with his "not improper" jump.


(This post was edited by pchapman on May 9, 2014, 4:42 AM)
Attachments: my.tandem.nightmare.jpg (116 KB)


hangdiver  (D License)

May 10, 2014, 7:12 AM
Post #247 of 260 (1405 views)
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re: Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Here's what I think...the FAA and UPT didn't want to acknowledge that they gave a TSO to a system with a big hole in it...literally a big hole without the Y-strap.


hangdiver


theonlyski  (D License)

May 10, 2014, 9:41 AM
Post #248 of 260 (1328 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] re: Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

hangdiver wrote:
Here's what I think...the FAA and UPT didn't want to acknowledge that they gave a TSO to a system with a big hole in it...literally a big hole without the Y-strap.


hangdiver

That 'hole' is not really much different than the 'holes' on all of our TSO-ed sport rigs... had it been adjusted properly.


hangdiver  (D License)

May 10, 2014, 11:28 AM
Post #249 of 260 (1260 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] re: Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That 'hole' is not really much different than the 'holes' on all of our TSO-ed sport rigs... had it been adjusted properly.





I can take a properly adjusted sport rig off in 2 seconds as well.

I've showed people...they freak out...

ask the FAA...they know...


hangdiver


theonlyski  (D License)

May 10, 2014, 6:15 PM
Post #250 of 260 (1080 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] re: Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

So you think that this was swept under the rug because the FAA didn't want to admit that they issued a TSO for a harness that has a big hole in it, just like all of the other sport harnesses that don't have a Y-mod?


diablopilot  (D License)

May 10, 2014, 6:30 PM
Post #251 of 260 (2673 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] re: Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

hangdiver wrote:
Here's what I think...the FAA and UPT didn't want to acknowledge that they gave a TSO to a system with a big hole in it...literally a big hole without the Y-strap.


hangdiver

You mean a system that had not one incident of this sort of thing occurring in 20+ years. Or could it be that the "perfect idiots" were finally found?


(This post was edited by diablopilot on May 10, 2014, 6:30 PM)


hangdiver  (D License)

May 10, 2014, 8:12 PM
Post #252 of 260 (2550 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] re: Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

diablopilot wrote:
hangdiver wrote:
Here's what I think...the FAA and UPT didn't want to acknowledge that they gave a TSO to a system with a big hole in it...literally a big hole without the Y-strap.


hangdiver

You mean a system that had not one incident of this sort of thing occurring in 20+ years. Or could it be that the "perfect idiots" were finally found?

I think anyone jumping out of airplanes is an idiot...to think it's safe.

It's not...shit happens...if you think it's safe you're an idiot.

Have you ever read Eloy's waiver?

I have...

hangdiver


robert_schaaf

May 11, 2014, 12:43 PM
Post #253 of 260 (2167 views)
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Re: [Falko] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

All tandems sign a weiver even releasing the ti and dz of gross neglagance. Pay your money take your chances. And i watched this tandem land from the loadong area. She was un harmed and not even shaken up about what happened. Still made her lunch plans for the day. Also upt added a y mod shortly after this incident witch wouldnt have happpened if there wasnt a problem with the gear. This also is not the first time this had happened but just the first time the people involved werent chicken shit enough to cover it up. Things like this can be learned from. Share it.


tonyhays  (D 26336)

May 11, 2014, 1:55 PM
Post #254 of 260 (2059 views)
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Re: [robert_schaaf] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
All tandems sign a weiver even releasing the ti and dz of gross neglagance

Doesn't matter if it states in the waiver, you can't waiver gross negligence.

Quote:
This also is not the first time this had happened but just the first time the people involved werent chicken shit enough to cover it up

If memory serves this didn't come out til a year after the incident due to someone not on staff putting it on youtube.


The111  (D 29246)

May 11, 2014, 3:14 PM
Post #255 of 260 (1995 views)
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Re: [robert_schaaf] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

robert_schaaf wrote:
upt added a y mod shortly after this incident witch wouldnt have happpened if there wasnt a problem with the gear.

That logic doesn't add up. It's like saying cars have seat belts because of a problem with the car. Quite the opposite, it's because of a problem with drivers.

A manufacturer adding extra safety redundancies to their gear does not mean there is a problem with their gear. It means they care about saving human lives in as many situations as possible, including poor use of the gear.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

May 11, 2014, 6:40 PM
Post #256 of 260 (1831 views)
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Re: [The111] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

The111 wrote:
robert_schaaf wrote:
upt added a y mod shortly after this incident witch wouldnt have happpened if there wasnt a problem with the gear.

That logic doesn't add up. It's like saying cars have seat belts because of a problem with the car. Quite the opposite, it's because of a problem with drivers.

A manufacturer adding extra safety redundancies to their gear does not mean there is a problem with their gear. It means they care about saving human lives in as many situations as possible, including poor use of the gear.

Plus, the statement of why the "Y" mod is inaccurate.
The mod was offered after UPT and Strong each had a student slip from the harness and fall to their deaths. The Strong case was TI, and a DZ mentality error, in the UPT case the TI took the blame.

After those two incidents, Strong mandated the mod for their rigs, and UPT offered it as an option.

When the TI does their job properly, and perform as a Professional, the Y mod is not needed or even necessary.

Matt


Liemberg  (Student)

May 14, 2014, 3:45 AM
Post #257 of 260 (1072 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When the TI does their job properly, and perform as a Professional, the Y mod is not needed or even necessary.
Same goes for AAD and RSL.

And any true Professional that is already above making stupid mistakes in the day-to-day practice of tandem-jumping will have no problem whatsoever with properly adjusting the 'extra' Y mod.


The111  (D 29246)

May 14, 2014, 9:12 AM
Post #258 of 260 (900 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Liemberg wrote:
Quote:
When the TI does their job properly, and perform as a Professional, the Y mod is not needed or even necessary.
Same goes for AAD and RSL.

It's not completely the same.

Even if you do everything right, you may still need an AAD (you can get knocked out by somebody else).

Even if you do everything right, you may still need an RSL (you could have a low cutaway cause by somebody else, e.g. after a canopy collision).

BUT... if you as a TI adjust the main harness right... you won't need a Y mod.

Yes, all 3 (RSL, AAD, Y mod) will protect you from yourself.

But only 2 of them (RSL, AAD) protect you from externally caused situations too. So when talking about a perfect professional who does everything right, the Y mod is very different from AAD and RSL, since this hypothetical perfect professional would still have a use for RSL/AAD, but not Y mod.


Liemberg  (Student)

May 14, 2014, 10:06 AM
Post #259 of 260 (854 views)
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Re: [The111] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Even if you do everything right, you may still need an AAD (you can get knocked out by somebody else).
The hypothetical perfect professional without any control over who he does or does not share his 'freefal-airspace' with? Been out of the game for a couple of years now, but the last time I looked the TI had total control over that. If you are knocked out by someone else you probably missed the portion where 'tandem under drogue = sitting duck' was explained by your examiner.
Quote:
(you could have a low cutaway cause by somebody else, e.g. after a canopy collision).
First, when Strong risers were breaking occasionally (many moons ago) it was up to the TI whether or not he wanted the RSL-thingy attached (provided the AAD was on) but other than that I do remember everybody else always opening some 2000ft below me...

So even if theoretically there may be a minute difference, in the real world that's completely insignificant.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 14, 2014, 4:57 PM
Post #260 of 260 (723 views)
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Re: [The111] Bad Tandem [In reply to] Can't Post

>Even if you do everything right, you may still need an RSL (you could have a
>low cutaway cause by somebody else, e.g. after a canopy collision).

If you are perfect you don't need an RSL since you will pull silver the instant the second riser releases. However, since few skydivers are perfect, an RSL (and even a Y mod) may increase safety overall for the tandem student.



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