Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Tandem jump goes to sh*t...

 

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skydived19006  (D 19006)

May 25, 2012, 1:39 PM
Post #126 of 230 (3200 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

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Quote:
This whole jump is just FUBAR but she may have not been saying no. I kind of thought it looked like she was having an issue with her legs
My dad made a jump at 85, and the TM peeled his hands off. But Dad told me later that he just didn't have his harness held exactly as the TM had said he wanted it (when you're old, you're not always all that flexible), he wasn't saying no.

But it only took 2 tries to peel him off -- this was way past that, never mind all the other appalling stuff in the video. Yeah, I'm glad it's out there too.

Wendy P.

If I ever have an inkling that someone doesn't want to jump before climbing out, I'll always reaffirm with them simply by asking "Do you want to skydive?!" They have to confirm that they do want to jump before we leave the airplane. Once back in, and the door closed I'll ask them again, also generally remind them that they've "spent their money either way." I personally do not care if they jump or not, they're not disappointing me, I have 4000 jumps, why should I care? I can ride down with them and save the pack job.

On a 182 load a year or so ago, I was in back while the other TI was in the process of exiting his student informed him "I don't think I can do this!" I don't remember what his response was, but it went back and fourth two or three times. Finally, I got in the middle of it, actually a bit helpful that I could look her in the face. I asked "Do you want to skydive?!" She again replied "I don't think I can do it!" I assured her that she could, and she climbed out. On the ground she cam to me and said "Thank you for getting firm with me up there." She wanted to jump, but was about to let her fear stop her.

It takes more than the physical ability, skill, and training to be a good TI. It also requires good decision making skills, especially under stress. This guy made a very poor decision at a fairly low stress point in time. I've refused to let more than one TI work at my DZ because I didn't trust their decision making skills.

Martin

Edit to add:
UPT calls their mod the "STUDENT HARNESS Butt Strap Retrofit Modification" It's not a "Y-mod" Ties from the "X" behind the back pad, across the lower back strap, then down to a "T" between the leg straps.

Take a look:
http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/..._09_36_51%5B1%5D.pdf


(This post was edited by skydived19006 on May 25, 2012, 1:49 PM)
Attachments: GOPR0037.jpg (75.7 KB)


mpohl

May 25, 2012, 4:18 PM
Post #127 of 230 (3053 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Been retired from TI (UPT, Strong) duties for almost 7 years.

I always made sure to tell my passengers: "Smile into the camera. I will ask you: "Are you ready to skydive?" Simply, if we had video, this would be my assurance if anything went wrong.

Made about 500 tandem jumps. Never injured a passenger. Only the asshole dzo!

(i) One time passenger didn't want to get out. So, we retreated. Ordered the pilot/dzo for a a go-around. She was ready on the second pass. DZO wasn't happy because of additional flight time and associated costs;

(ii) On another occasion, solid cloud cover from 4-13k. Got up to about 13.5k. I needed less than 500 ft to get stable and deploy the drogue. But I wasn't going to take a chance w/ my or my passenger's life. You don't want to end up unstable in a grey oblivion where you can't tell up from down. Four tandems went, I refused and rode the plane down w/ my passenger.
We went back-up again within the hour. Had a good jump! But so did all the other four tandems; because every one of their videos was shit. Condensation on the camera!!!!

Difference between my fellow tandem instructors and me? I was pulling a $100k M-F, and I could afford to say NO!


mircan  (D 32291)

May 25, 2012, 4:32 PM
Post #128 of 230 (3035 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I still am baffled how she stayed in on deployment, really the whole god damn even baffles me.

I`m baffeled too... To the point that I think this whole thing might be a hoax? It`s sooo "unreal". Could it be? Why?


Bellyflier  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 4:57 PM
Post #129 of 230 (2996 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

just seen it on Inside Edition. Scariest thing I've ever seen.


AndyBoyd  (D 16728)

May 25, 2012, 5:04 PM
Post #130 of 230 (2988 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

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Just when ya think you've idiot proofed something...along comes a better idiot! Crazy

I watched the video (it's back up), and looked at the photos. I've done about 2,000 tandems, and I can't figure out what the hell happenned. I couldn't get a student in that position if I tried. Is it just that the harness is very loose, or is there something else going on? And if the harness is that fucked up, how in the world does the TM not notice this before he exits? Leaving the TM's incompetence aside, what in the hell happenned here?


stratostar  (Student)

May 25, 2012, 5:26 PM
Post #131 of 230 (2953 views)
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Re: [AndyBoyd] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
what in the hell happenned here?

Some say, Coaching....?


(This post was edited by stratostar on May 25, 2012, 5:28 PM)
Attachments: lodi.jpg (25.7 KB)


hchunter614  (B 30368)

May 25, 2012, 5:48 PM
Post #132 of 230 (2927 views)
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Re: [Bellyflier] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's on the front page of msn.com now.


wetrock

May 25, 2012, 5:48 PM
Post #133 of 230 (2926 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

the sun reported on the video the video too
http://www.thesun.co.uk/...-horribly-wrong.html


Namowal  (A 63059)

May 25, 2012, 6:16 PM
Post #134 of 230 (2899 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I still am baffled how she stayed in on deployment, really the whole god damn even baffles me.

I`m baffeled too... To the point that I think this whole thing might be a hoax? It`s sooo "unreal". Could it be? Why?

I was wondering if it was some kind of hoax or weird publicity stunt too, but I couldn't imagine how it was done or why they'd include the location hints at the beginning.

A few minutes ago I got a message from my "Reality Show" pal who says she just spoke to the woman...

...just hope this doesn't explode into a "See everyone? Skydiving is bad" hullabaloo..Shocked


nigel99  (D 1)

May 25, 2012, 6:27 PM
Post #135 of 230 (2889 views)
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Re: [Namowal] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

What would have been funny is the ti exiting and the woman 'falling' out in the plane. It would have been a real wtf moment for the ti.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

May 25, 2012, 7:10 PM
Post #136 of 230 (2845 views)
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Re: [Skyflyer3] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post


Loose laterals may cause a side spin but would never cause a passenger to slip out of the harness. In the video you can see the "instructor" fitting the harness to the customer and in the preloading scene, you see the back strap hanging loose. That was the major mistake. Second was forcing her out of the plane. Both should be actionable.
just a question on this? If the back strap is what keeps people in the harness, then how did all those thousands survive before the backstrap, like a vector II or Eclipse or Racer harness??

I personally learned on a vector II harness and never lost anybody


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 25, 2012, 7:12 PM
Post #137 of 230 (2843 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It takes more than the physical ability, skill, and training to be a good TI.

At the very least it takes the maturity to realize that a jump with a student/tandem is not about me, me. It is not something that can be taught or coached. Some may never reach the point where they should have responsibility for someone elses life.

Sparky


jshiloh

May 25, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #138 of 230 (2826 views)
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Re: [jbnote] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
In reply to:
I am truly amazed that people pull off stunts like these in suehappy america....

Note to all in Cali - waivers won't cover "gross negligence," which is "an extreme departure from the ordinary standard of conduct." While I'm no tandem master, I think that a woman falling ass first out of a harness ON EXIT shows a pretty extreme departure. If something worse had happened, that video...
-------------------------------------------------------------
I beg to differ, every waiver I have ever signed at my home DZ or while traveling has the "gross negligence" clause in it. Search google for "tandem waiver" just to see a few generic ones and you'll find the clause in there.

I've even signed a waiver that stated I would not sue the DZ/DZO etc. in the event of "Extreme Gross Negligence" which I found somewhat amusing.

I am IN NO WAY defending ANY of what is on the video. Nor am I saying that the waiver would necessarily hold up in court. Any law student could punch holes in nearly all our waivers if they were paid well enough to do so. The U.S. is far too eager to sue, that's undeniable. Sometimes, it's justified, other times it isn't.

Had this tandem ended up turning into a fatality (which we all agree came within a hair's breadth of doing so) then it would have been a clear case of "Gross Negligence" - at least from my non-legalese point of view.

BTW - Laverne looks a bit like a dude.

You can put anything you want in a waiver or contract. That doesn't make it enforceable in a court of law. California (and most other states) has firmly established that you CANNOT waive gross negligence, no matter how hard anyone tries, because doing so violates public policy. If a plaintiff can prove gross negligence (as opposed to regular negligence) they will win in court, even if they signed a waiver expressly mentioning gross negligence. To make matters worse, including an attempt to waive gross negligence, intentional acts, etc can sometimes actually backfire. A court may rule that such a waiver is entirely void as "over reaching" or "unconcionable."


SkydiverDZO  (D 29918)

May 25, 2012, 7:44 PM
Post #139 of 230 (2810 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a new DZO, but have some experience as an AFFI and TI. If they say "no", I am cool with it. They paid, TI gets paid and I don't have to pay for a pack job. Life is about making decisions. If you pay and change your mind at my DZ, we're jiggy with the decision.


Skyflyer3  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 8:03 PM
Post #140 of 230 (2770 views)
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Re: [jtiflyer] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's all three back straps.
I can't speak to anything you used in the past.
If you had succesful jumps with overweight people without the use of a back strap, I don't see why it has been implemented, since.


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

May 25, 2012, 8:08 PM
Post #141 of 230 (2763 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

honestly who the hell posted it on youtube Unsure..
predictably gone viral.

Cheers
Shc


jbnote  (C 36083)

May 25, 2012, 8:19 PM
Post #142 of 230 (2750 views)
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Re: [jshiloh] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

lawrocket and jshiloh,

Thanks for the tips (truly, I am not being sarcastic).

I always figured the gross/extreme gross negligence clauses were a BS smokescreen. I guess those DZs where I've signed them (won't name names) just have them there as perhaps a first line of defense if an ill-informed jumper tries to sue. For example:

Student: I'm injured because your TI did X,Y,Z.
DZO: Sorry, but you signed the "Gross Negligence" clause, and our waiver is bullet-proof.
Student: Oh shit, ok, I shouldn't have done that. He's right, this waiver looks totally legit. Live and learn I guess.

I'm glad California seems to have started or added momentum to the trend of ditching the clause and making a more common-sense approach to the waivers and their legal possibilities. Truthfully, I'm surprised this is a state-to-state issue, but I know next to nothing about legal issues in skydiving.

Thanks to you guys for helping us learn more.

That said, I'm sure waiver/legal issues probably belong in a different forum . . . so we should switch to yelling about the TI so these posts don't get moved. Wink


demoknite  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 8:50 PM
Post #143 of 230 (2714 views)
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Re: [SkydiverDZO] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am a new DZO, but have some experience as an AFFI and TI. If they say "no", I am cool with it. They paid, TI gets paid and I don't have to pay for a pack job. Life is about making decisions. If you pay and change your mind at my DZ, we're jiggy with the decision.

I know we have gone down the "cocky TI" road, but a lot of similar behavior of people pushing out unwilling students at other places comes from the DZO not wanting to do two passes because it costs money and puts hours on the plane. Not condoning this guys behavior by any means.


LyraM45  (B 26378)

May 25, 2012, 9:06 PM
Post #144 of 230 (2701 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I am a new DZO, but have some experience as an AFFI and TI. If they say "no", I am cool with it. They paid, TI gets paid and I don't have to pay for a pack job. Life is about making decisions. If you pay and change your mind at my DZ, we're jiggy with the decision.

I know we have gone down the "cocky TI" road, but a lot of similar behavior of people pushing out unwilling students at other places comes from the DZO not wanting to do two passes because it costs money and puts hours on the plane. Not condoning this guys behavior by any means.

Yep Unsure I had a bad experience one time at this particular dz where I saw traffic passing underneath us, I signaled and pointed it out to everybody behind me, and what did I get? Everybody yelling at me to go. That was probably my last jump at this place if I remember correctly. And it's not just Lodi.... other places pull the same crap and it's one of my pet peeves, especially since I work in air traffic control. I know how busy the skies are in Nor Cal.


lawrocket  (Student)

May 25, 2012, 9:32 PM
Post #145 of 230 (2674 views)
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Re: [LyraM45] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

BillyVance - make yourself useful and read her lips and tell us what she's saying.


Greig474  (D 1031)

May 25, 2012, 10:17 PM
Post #146 of 230 (2634 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

uh oh, first photo that comes up now when you type "skydive" on google, i didn't think this would affect tandem numbers that badly at first, now i'm not so sure


demoknite  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 10:36 PM
Post #147 of 230 (2620 views)
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Re: [Greig474] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

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uh oh, first photo that comes up now when you type "skydive" on google, i didn't think this would affect tandem numbers that badly at first, now i'm not so sure

Yeh, this one has legs unlike any bad incident we have seen in a long while. The damage control on this will be tough. Seeing as we have hit quite a few of the bases on this one, we still havent figured out "how the hell did this leak?" Especially if it happened a year ago.

/and it was edited...Unimpressed


dorbie

May 26, 2012, 12:56 AM
Post #148 of 230 (2536 views)
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Re: [LloydDobbler] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

It made the local news here (Bay Area), it wasn't just in the news broadcast though. It was used as the teaser broadcast throughout the evening to get people to tune in and watch later, including the shot of the PAX ass in the breeze clinging for life.


wetrock

May 26, 2012, 1:18 AM
Post #149 of 230 (2531 views)
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Re: [demoknite] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

 Its got legs all rite about 600,000 views from various you tube channels alone in five days and that's before main stream media reports on the video.


nigel99  (D 1)

May 26, 2012, 2:04 AM
Post #150 of 230 (2504 views)
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Re: [Greig474] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
uh oh, first photo that comes up now when you type "skydive" on google, i didn't think this would affect tandem numbers that badly at first, now i'm not so sure

No real damage done to the sport. I've seen a number of posts saying this has motivated them to book their tandem. People are funny and will figure that falling out of their harness is less of a risk. I mean an old lady managed to hang on so how hard can it be? (I'm giving a whuffo viewpoint, not mine)


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