Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Tandem jump goes to sh*t...

 


mircan  (D 32291)

May 24, 2012, 3:49 AM
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Tandem jump goes to sh*t... Can't Post

I did a search but could not find reference to THIS!

Any comments?

Sorry if it is a repost...


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
May 24, 2012, 4:10 AM
Post #2 of 230 (12713 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Apart from....

That is truly horrible, so close to a fatality.
She obviously didn't want to jump, why force her?
Were the laterals tightened properly?
Who in their right mind let this video public?

I hope she got her money back and then some.


VTmotoMike08  (D 30399)

May 24, 2012, 4:11 AM
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

DAMN! Well, I remember a couple months ago USPA released an advisory about an elderly female passenger who almost fell out of the harness... I guess you just found itMadPirate


mircan  (D 32291)

May 24, 2012, 4:16 AM
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Re: [VTmotoMike08] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Somebody linked it on the FB, and I was surprised it didn`t show up earlier... Unsure

I`m a fresh TM but I mostly do video. While I was watching this it for the first time I was just thinking what would I do? As videographer?

As TI, I would not jump. It was pretty obvious this person don`t want to either.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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May 24, 2012, 4:16 AM
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Re: [VTmotoMike08] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
DAMN! Well, I remember a couple months ago USPA released an advisory about an elderly female passenger who almost fell out of the harness... I guess you just found itMadPirate

It was UPT, USPA just passed it along


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
May 24, 2012, 4:19 AM
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

The only saving grace is he gets the drogue out. The way it was starting to spin up is very reminiscent of the (Finnish?) fatality that is featured on Strong's Side Spin video, where the laterals weren't tightened sufficiently and the separation between the instructor and student caused them to spin (until impact as they blacked out and there was no AAD fitted).


FreeflyGoat  (D 26046)

May 24, 2012, 4:37 AM
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Goosebumps just watching this :/ The harness could of been perfectly adjusted and still had this happen the way she was basically sitting down and sliding out of the harness in the door with the TI standing up. If this lady had been a family member of mine I would have kicked that TI's a$$ upon seeing the video.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

May 24, 2012, 4:46 AM
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh My God!!!!!


there was MAYBE a 3 chances outta TEN , likelihood of that event finishing off... safely...Unsure


very relieved for the TM.. that he got her safely to the ground..Unimpressed

MY pulse is racing,, i bet the same for the video person and the TM...


yikes....

NOT everybody who "thinks" they wanna skydive... SHOULD skydive..imho


jt


jhh166  (B License)

May 24, 2012, 5:06 AM
Post #9 of 230 (12636 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

 I really did not think she was going to stay in the harness at deployment.

Is it legal to force a tandem student out the door if they decide they don't want to jump (even if its already jump run)? How about the waivers still being valid when the jumper is no longer participating at will and being forced out the door?

Had she died, a wuffo would have viewed her actions at the door as she did not want to jump and she changed her mind.

I think it is amusing to watch a student being pushed or pulled (aff) of the aircraft, al beit I am not so sure how smart it is to post it online. There could have been some stock footage thrown on there right to the point they roll out the door.


Abedy  (D 10153)

May 24, 2012, 5:26 AM
Post #10 of 230 (12600 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I did a search but could not find reference to THIS!

Any comments?

Yes... "Video not available in your country" I wonder why? Any music along? If yes, the royalty fee grabbing authority is behind this.
Anyone knows an alternative source?


feuergnom  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 5:29 AM
Post #11 of 230 (12596 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

apart from the very, very, very scary freefall (holy fucking shit!):
no proper suit for the passenger, no head protection, flimsy shoes...... but thats just for starters.....

then: why would a TI want to make a standing exit with an elderly pax????? have her sit on your lap and roll out of the door - especially in a plane with a huge door like this

why TF didn't the videoguy shove them back in or block the door? there was plenty of time to signal the TI a big fucking NO! at least that is what I would do as a videoperson.... no chance for lucky heroism in freefall

as soon as she tried to back in he should have broken off the exit. as long as no limbs are outside you always have the opportunity and also the DUTY to stay in the plane should a pax make clear he doesn't want to jump.... and that lady clearly dind't want to go

I am truly amazed that people pull off stunts like these in suehappy america....


edit to add: the ability to jump tandems is not about getting the drogue out, deploy the main and land safely. thats only the small part. the bigger and more important one (i guess thats the real basics) is about knowing when to make the right decisions with his individual passenger - be it on the ground, on the way to alti in the plane or in freefall. this TI clearly forgot the basics Unimpressed


(This post was edited by feuergnom on May 24, 2012, 5:34 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 24, 2012, 5:29 AM
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Any comments?

To the DZO - where's the y-strap mod?

To the TI - how many times does she have to say no?

To the camera guy - you put this on Youtube?


mircan  (D 32291)

May 24, 2012, 5:30 AM
Post #13 of 230 (12590 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don`t know why it`s banned, but here is Sendspace link


feuergnom  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 5:36 AM
Post #14 of 230 (12582 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

I bet they will have the y-mod added by now. hopefully!


(This post was edited by feuergnom on May 24, 2012, 5:36 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 24, 2012, 5:39 AM
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Re: [feuergnom] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I bet they will have the y-mod added by now

Yeah, did you catch the name of the DZ at the beginning of the video? That's the same DZO flew 1000's of loads, with 20+ jumpers per load, on timed-out control cables and airframe inspections on his Otter. You really think this will get his attention when only one person was at risk?


piisfish

May 24, 2012, 5:39 AM
Post #16 of 230 (12575 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

WOOOOOW, scary. can someone save this vid before it is pulled down ?

As a videoman I don't know what I would have done during the jump, but I would for sure have deleted the references to the DZ on the video Unsure


piisfish

May 24, 2012, 5:42 AM
Post #17 of 230 (12564 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
why TF didn't the videoguy shove them back in or block the door? there was plenty of time to signal the TI a big fucking NO! at least that is what I would do as a videoperson....
he was too busy trying to grab the passenger's hands so she would stop grabbing the plane Unimpressed


Abedy  (D 10153)

May 24, 2012, 6:35 AM
Post #18 of 230 (12508 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don`t know why it`s banned, but here is Sendspace link

Thank you very much for helping.
Watched it and ... what else to say: Had it been my mum (one year younger only) I would have kicked the shite out of this fartknocker TI. Where to start... first of all she made it more than clear that she didn't want to jump and he forcibly shoved her out.

OMG I hope his license gets punched! Mad


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 24, 2012, 7:06 AM
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Re: [Abedy] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
first of all she made it more than clear that she didn't want to jump and he forcibly shoved her out.

Exactly, where is the standard of care?

If I was walking into a building, and an elderly woman was also approaching, wouldn't you stop and hold the door for her? How about if she was 20 ft behind you, wouldn't you stand there longer to wait for her than you would a young, fit person? I know I would.

Ditto for a tandem. When a young, fit pax is looking out the door saying, 'Oh my god, oh my god' or even 'I don't know if I can do this, I don't know if I can do this', maybe then you push on through with the exit and leave the aircraft. If the same student has a hand on the door frame to steady themselves (people aren't used to being strapped to anyone), then you pull their hand in and place it on their harness.

When you have an elderly passenger who is repeatedly saying 'No', and physically pushing back from the door frame, you have to recognize that and stand down. Even if you take a go-around and see if they want to reconsider, you simply can't just shove them out of the plane.

The fact is that elderly passengers are more likely to suffer injury just based on the reduction of strength and flexibility, and the reduction of bone mass that comes with age. Due to this, their complete cooperation becomes even more critical to making an injury-free jump, and a TI needs to take these things into account.

Shit, just bouncing her shin off the door frame could have been eough for a tib-fib fracture, and at that age there's no guarantee that it will ever heal. What will leave a monster bruise on a 25 year old could leave an injury on a 75 year old that will last the rest of their days. Ever see a 75 year old on crutches? Most of them son't have the strength to use crutches, so the lady would have been relegated to a wheelchair for the rest of her days.

One lesson I learned a long time ago is that skydiving isn't for everyone.


BMFin

May 24, 2012, 7:17 AM
Post #20 of 230 (12443 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I did a search but could not find reference to THIS!

Any comments?

Yes... "Video not available in your country" I wonder why? Any music along? If yes, the royalty fee grabbing authority is behind this.
Anyone knows an alternative source?

A good Workaround for this problem is to use a proxy. For example in firefox, install an add on called stealthy and you can then contact youtube via proxy from a country of your choice.


Abedy  (D 10153)

May 24, 2012, 8:07 AM
Post #21 of 230 (12376 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For example in firefox, install an add on called stealthy and you can then contact youtube via proxy from a country of your choice.

I have been a devoted Opera user for many years and thus had to do some search.
(Yes, I wanted to do so before but now I felt motivated enough.)

I came across YouTubeUnblocker and it also works with Opera (see pic attached), heh heh! Cool (Also works with Firefox, Chrome and Safari.)
If anyone needs help with installing it on Opera, just drop me a PM.
Attachments: UT00bUnblocker.gif (134 KB)


kawisixer01  (C 38984)

May 24, 2012, 8:22 AM
Post #22 of 230 (12324 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Scary shit. Anyone else notice that you catch another clip at the end of what looks like people lining up to exit, the guys drogue is about half way out?


Abedy  (D 10153)

May 24, 2012, 8:37 AM
Post #23 of 230 (12279 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

I second your thoughts. Skydiving isn't for everyone and if someone doesn't want to or changes their mind just keep sitting. It's a sign a politeness to respect such a wish (and to "guard" such a passenger in the hangar.)

I dunno why a TI forcibly drags a student out the door. The vid is a little grainy at that period of time but it seems the TI even sort of looks "amused" about his wildly thrashing and resisting old lady passenger. Maybe - especially in our way-too-often testosteron-driven sport - he was afraid his fellow TIs would make phun of him not to be able to "get that old lady out the door"? I dunno and hope this wasn't his motive.

Old passengers are a challenge, yes. I'm pretty glad I didn't have very fragile old people yet. My eldest passenger so far has been a nice lady aged 75. She was remarkably fit for her age but I told her that we need to take extra care with her and I triple-checked her harness. If she had shown that she had changed her mind I would have remained in the plane with her and I talked about this opportunity with her - as I do with all students(*). We did some more ground training, especially landing and I assisted her a little (lifted her legs with mine a little) but she did fairly well, better than some younger buffalo hips... See pics attached, she enjoyed the ride.

(*) "Whenever you clearly tell me you don't wanna jump and confirm my question if ya really don't wanna do, I will respect your wish - which might take more bravery than actually jump - and stay with you and ride down in the plane with you. The money will be blown, though. That OK with you?"
Attachments: 75-year-old-lady.gif (121 KB)


faller  (D 5182)

May 24, 2012, 8:50 AM
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Re: [Abedy] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps one of the scariest things I've ever seen. Without having been there, it's hard to say that in fact the passenger was saying no or just resisting/complaining. HOWEVER it is certainly obvious that the harness was not properly fit to the customer and left loose & unadjusted prior to exit. NOT EVEN CLOSE! The extra Y strap would only have made this scenario slightly less scary. The fact that this poor woman survived is nothing short of a miracle. The Instructor made several egregious errors, all painfully obvious on that living nightmare of a video. 1) Equipment fitting & re-checking. 2) Final re-checking of harness just prior to exit. 3) Verifying passenger compliance. 4) Delaying efforts to grab, leg lock or whatever else you might think of. Kudos to the Video guy for making some effort.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

May 24, 2012, 9:01 AM
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Re: [faller] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Perhaps one of the scariest things I've ever seen. Without having been there, it's hard to say that in fact the passenger was saying no or just resisting/complaining. HOWEVER it is certainly obvious that the harness was not properly fit to the customer and left loose & unadjusted prior to exit. NOT EVEN CLOSE! The extra Y strap would only have made this scenario slightly less scary. The fact that this poor woman survived is nothing short of a miracle. The Instructor made several egregious errors, all painfully obvious on that living nightmare of a video. 1) Equipment fitting & re-checking. 2) Final re-checking of harness just prior to exit. 3) Verifying passenger compliance. 4) Delaying efforts to grab, leg lock or whatever else you might think of. Kudos to the Video guy for making some effort.

This whole jump is just FUBAR but she may have not been saying no. I kind of thought it looked like she was having an issue with her legs. It almost seemed as though they kind of got stuck under her. Only her and that TI will know what really happened but one thing is for sure... that exit should have never happened! If I were the vidiot on that jump I would have had a hard time not trying to do something before the exit but he deserves kudos for trying to help in the air. I still cannot believe what I just watched.


prada

May 24, 2012, 9:08 AM
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Re: [Abedy] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Awesome... the FALK is one of the first birds I jumped from! Nice to see her back, ...

for the original video, I sit here with my mouth open and speechless... what the f***..!!! they should ban the TI forever.. my 5 cents as a noob.
Prada


feuergnom  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 9:09 AM
Post #27 of 230 (4652 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
(*) "Whenever you clearly tell me you don't wanna jump and confirm my question if ya really don't wanna do, I will respect your wish - which might take more bravery than actually jump - and stay with you and ride down in the plane with you. The money will be blown, though. That OK with you?"

that was exactly my line from my first jump with a passenger/student to the last one. only two exemption: If we are flying in a 172/182/206 and we have the seat next to the door we have to go, otherwise the next pair can't leave. plus if you are outside the door of a 172/182/206 I won't get us in again and we'll go


Abedy  (D 10153)

May 24, 2012, 9:19 AM
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Re: [feuergnom] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yepp, small planes might pose a problem if someone sits next to the door and changes their mind. We had a 206 here last year, but there weren't any issues - should be interesting if 3 tandem pairs are packed in it. OTOH I had to lift the two of us over another "spacious" (to put it politely) TI's leg, so I think it's manageable at least in a 206, but in a 172 or 182...

Folks at Arnstadt were planning on chartering a Beech and TIs talked about how to get out the door and folks who have already jumped from one said that a sitting exit is the most sensible one. I always feel uncomfortable if I see TIs doing dive exits where they can do a posed one - which bears less risks.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

May 24, 2012, 9:34 AM
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Unfuckingbelievable is all I can say.

MadMadMad


-ftp-

May 24, 2012, 9:54 AM
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there any way in hell this TI will work again? I mean seriously WTF. Nothing like making the sport look like horrible.

The TI looks very shaken at the end, as he should, I just wonder how many other students have jumped with this guy and a loose harnessUnsure


tkhayes  (D 18764)

May 24, 2012, 10:01 AM
Post #31 of 230 (4516 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

unfuckingbelievable..... this day and age.

We have had two people fall out of harnesses and that ANY tandem instructor could possibly EVER let that happen or near-happen again is beyond my fucking comprehension.

If this sport is regulated out of existence - it would be due to complete incompetence such as this.....IMO


billeisele  (A 5643)

May 24, 2012, 10:02 AM
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Re: [cpoxon] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The only saving grace is he gets the drogue out. The way it was starting to spin up is very reminiscent of the (Finnish?) fatality that is featured on Strong's Side Spin video, where the laterals weren't tightened sufficiently and the separation between the instructor and student caused them to spin (until impact as they blacked out and there was no AAD fitted).

looking at the 1:00 minute mark it appears that the back strap is hanging down and not even connected, and the TI is carrying her cane

while standing in the door trying to force her to go, you can see the top straps at the connectors are already too loose - found myself yelling at the screen - DON'T JUMP


dride

May 24, 2012, 10:08 AM
Post #33 of 230 (4497 views)
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Re: [billeisele] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Why am I not suprised this happened at that particular dropzoneCrazy

Just seeing how loose the harness was in the door scared me before they even jumped. I also found myself trying to tell them not to jump.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

May 24, 2012, 10:14 AM
Post #34 of 230 (4474 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Per some FB posts, this happened around a year ago and the manufacturers have pulled the TI's rating (it was also indicated that he never had a USPA TI rating).

Note that I cannot verify the veracity of these statements, but they came from reputable sources, so I'm inclined to trust them.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

May 24, 2012, 10:19 AM
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FB link, please.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

May 24, 2012, 10:22 AM
Post #36 of 230 (4442 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
FB link, please.

The links are on the pages of my friends, meaning they're likely non-public. So it wouldn't do me much good to send you there.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 24, 2012, 10:29 AM
Post #37 of 230 (4423 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed TK - if we don't mind our own, someone else surely will.

THIS is unacceptable. Period.


airdvr  (D 10977)

May 24, 2012, 10:33 AM
Post #38 of 230 (4415 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Unsure Wow. Too much wrong here to even begin the list.


lawrocket  (Student)

May 24, 2012, 10:36 AM
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Re: [feuergnom] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am truly amazed that people pull off stunts like these in suehappy america....

Note to all in Cali - waivers won't cover "gross negligence," which is "an extreme departure from the ordinary standard of conduct." While I'm no tandem master, I think that a woman falling ass first out of a harness ON EXIT shows a pretty extreme departure. If something worse had happened, that video...

I feel for the cameraman. I'm thinking that cameraman knew he was watching someone who was going to die. I knew she lived but in watching the video I thought "She's going to die."

I'm GLAD this video is out there.


TitaniumLegs  (D 19246)

May 24, 2012, 10:48 AM
Post #40 of 230 (4386 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

This should be required viewing for all TI candidates just like the side spin vids.


jhh166  (B License)

May 24, 2012, 10:53 AM
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Re: [lawrocket] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I am truly amazed that people pull off stunts like these in suehappy america....

Note to all in Cali - waivers won't cover "gross negligence," which is "an extreme departure from the ordinary standard of conduct." While I'm no tandem master, I think that a woman falling ass first out of a harness ON EXIT shows a pretty extreme departure. If something worse had happened, that video...

I feel for the cameraman. I'm thinking that cameraman knew he was watching someone who was going to die. I knew she lived but in watching the video I thought "She's going to die."

I'm GLAD this video is out there.

This is what I was saying in my prior post.The DZ is getting their money regardless at that point, so why even force her out? I don't get it..


kawisixer01  (C 38984)

May 24, 2012, 11:17 AM
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Re: [jhh166] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm no TM and jump vidiot at a 182 dz mostly, so not familiar with turbine exits. But looking at the exit why is he even trying to exit that way? Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier, logistically, to sit back and have the students body on top of his and then they could put their legs out first and roll out off of their butts? Half the problem looks like her legs are pinned under her and he's trying to force this big mass of her/him/rig to pivot over the top of her legs. All the while dragging his pin covers across the top of the door frame. She might not be fighting because she doesn't want to jump, but rather because he's hurting her legs/knees/hips and she's scared something is gonna snap if he pushes more. All I know is that it scares the shit out of me watching it on video, I can't imagine living it. CrazyMad


livendive  (D 21415)

May 24, 2012, 11:18 AM
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Re: [billeisele] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
looking at the 1:00 minute mark it appears that the back strap is hanging down and not even connected, and the TI is carrying her cane

while standing in the door trying to force her to go, you can see the top straps at the connectors are already too loose - found myself yelling at the screen - DON'T JUMP

Agreed on all counts. A Y-mod only prevents a student from coming out *below* the backstrap, not between the backstrap and the pad. It can't help a backstrap that is below the butt, especially when the legstraps are at the knees (2:21). The uppers are loose, the chest is converted into two bellies...it's just a godawfully adjusted harness that got followed by incredibly horrible decision making and an insane amount of good luck. 3:00 is telling. How she didn't come out at drogue throw or release is amazing.

Blues,
Dave


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

May 24, 2012, 11:24 AM
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Re: [tkhayes] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

TK,
You pretty much summed up my exact same fellings!

Freaking unbelievable!!!!!

MEL


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 24, 2012, 11:29 AM
Post #45 of 230 (4287 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Any comments?

To the DZO - where's the y-strap mod?

To the TI - how many times does she have to say no?

To the camera guy - you put this on Youtube?

Bingo! We have a winner.

The DZO would be Bill Dause of the Parachute Center in Lodi. The same place that has been fined hundreds of thousands of dollars by the FAA for failing to perform mandatory aircraft inspections and where seat belts in airplanes are there only for appearance.

As for the Y mod, it's tough to pay for stuff like that when you only charge a hundred bucks for a tandem jump.

I'd love to hear some Lodi jumper's opinions on all this and more. I would especially like to hear from the USPA Director who jumps there every weekend!


matthewcline  (D 21585)

May 24, 2012, 11:37 AM
Post #46 of 230 (4263 views)
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The side spin video, this video fro ma year ago and the PA video from this month should all be added, as well as any others out there.

It is PAST time to get our shit together folks and tighten up!

Matt


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 24, 2012, 11:37 AM
Post #47 of 230 (4266 views)
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In reply to:
Per some FB posts, this happened around a year ago and the manufacturers have pulled the TI's rating (it was also indicated that he never had a USPA TI rating).

Note that I cannot verify the veracity of these statements, but they came from reputable sources, so I'm inclined to trust them.

At what point will someone run Dause and his ilk out of town? And this is the home DZ for the USPA Regional Director for that area. Even though The Parachute Center isn't a USPA DZ, it seems to me that a Director jumping there is a pretty ringing endorsement of the place.

That's as "unfuckingbelievable" as anything else in all of this.


fanya  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 11:57 AM
Post #48 of 230 (4199 views)
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In reply to:
Per some FB posts, this happened around a year ago and the manufacturers have pulled the TI's rating (it was also indicated that he never had a USPA TI rating).

Note that I cannot verify the veracity of these statements, but they came from reputable sources, so I'm inclined to trust them.

I would say this is accurate, when I got my rating my evaluator made specific mention of this incident and how important it was that even turning loads that harnesses will be loose and need to be adjusted before boarding the aircraft. The instructor on this jump was in the 50-75 tandem range and had his ratings pulled from what I was told.

If you want to sling shit at Lodi you have plenty of things to pick from but this was TI negligence, I don't see how this can be blamed on Bill, and as far as equipment, all of Bill's tandem equipment is less than 2 years old, it's the best equipment I've gotten to jump so far in the several places I've worked.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

May 24, 2012, 11:59 AM
Post #49 of 230 (4194 views)
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Quote:
This whole jump is just FUBAR but she may have not been saying no. I kind of thought it looked like she was having an issue with her legs
My dad made a jump at 85, and the TM peeled his hands off. But Dad told me later that he just didn't have his harness held exactly as the TM had said he wanted it (when you're old, you're not always all that flexible), he wasn't saying no.

But it only took 2 tries to peel him off -- this was way past that, never mind all the other appalling stuff in the video. Yeah, I'm glad it's out there too.

Wendy P.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

May 24, 2012, 12:09 PM
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In reply to:
Quote:
This whole jump is just FUBAR but she may have not been saying no. I kind of thought it looked like she was having an issue with her legs
My dad made a jump at 85, and the TM peeled his hands off. But Dad told me later that he just didn't have his harness held exactly as the TM had said he wanted it (when you're old, you're not always all that flexible), he wasn't saying no.

But it only took 2 tries to peel him off -- this was way past that, never mind all the other appalling stuff in the video. Yeah, I'm glad it's out there too.

Wendy P.


.... and that could be right Wendy. I guess I thought that the TI could hear that she was saying something. He seemed like he acknowledged something she said but maybe not. Only two people know. I just thought that from the videos I have done with older students. It can be tough but maybe she was saying no... either way they should have never left the door for a plethora of reasons.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 24, 2012, 12:16 PM
Post #51 of 230 (4094 views)
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I thought she simply couldn't move her legs out with his body weight on top of her.
But the harness WAS more than clearly improperly fitted.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

May 24, 2012, 12:20 PM
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In reply to:
I thought she simply couldn't move her legs out with his body weight on top of her.
But the harness WAS more than clearly improperly fitted.

That's what I thought as well and thought maybe she was trying to tell him that but you are 100% correct about the harness... I still cannot believe what I watched.


bdazel  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 12:25 PM
Post #53 of 230 (4075 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
Yeah, I'm glad it's out there too.

I'm torn on this. On one hand, it may help to educate some new instructors. It may cause reckless instructors to rethink their behavior. It may also motivate some to expose reckless instructors or DZs and cause them to go away or change their behavior.

On the other hand, I can see this blowing up all over the web and causing otherwise interested students to stay away from the sport due to a fear that this type of recklessness is prevalent within the sport or that tandem harnesses are simply unsafe and waiting to dump students. After watching that video, I can't say that I'd blame them. There is no accompanying information with the video to mitigate inaccurate assumptions.

It's one thing for a prospective student to go on Youtube and watch a sport jumper do something stupid and get hurt. It's a whole different thing to watch a tandem student narrowly escape death by managing to cling to the harness in that way. That is the type of nightmare that many students must overcome just to make the jump in the first place.


tonyhays  (D 26336)

May 24, 2012, 12:33 PM
Post #54 of 230 (4041 views)
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As I've read through these posts, I am sorry to see a few posters expressing support for the camera guy trying to intervene. Seriously, WTF could he possibly do to help the situation????

IMO, all he is doing was transforming a potentially single fatality situation into a potentially triple fatality situation.


Southern_Man  (C License)

May 24, 2012, 12:38 PM
Post #55 of 230 (4023 views)
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That's one of the scariest fucking things I've ever seen.


Andy9o8  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 12:43 PM
Post #56 of 230 (3998 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
This whole jump is just FUBAR but she may have not been saying no. I kind of thought it looked like she was having an issue with her legs
My dad made a jump at 85, and the TM peeled his hands off. But Dad told me later that he just didn't have his harness held exactly as the TM had said he wanted it (when you're old, you're not always all that flexible), he wasn't saying no.

But it only took 2 tries to peel him off -- this was way past that, never mind all the other appalling stuff in the video. Yeah, I'm glad it's out there too. Wendy P.

I am, too.
Pardon me if I sound "traitorous" or piss some of you off, but a few of the comments in here could be construed to endorse a cover-up mentality. Bad idea on a couple levels, IMO.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on May 24, 2012, 12:53 PM)


Decodiver  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 1:12 PM
Post #57 of 230 (3917 views)
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In reply to:
That's one of the scariest fucking things I've ever seen.

If that was my mother I would kick the living shit out of the TM, what a fucking twat!


braden.smith  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 1:25 PM
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Post deleted by braden.smith [In reply to]

 


SkydiverDZO  (D 29918)

May 24, 2012, 1:27 PM
Post #59 of 230 (3872 views)
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All I can say is wow. What part of the harness fitting did this guy miss out on in training? The student should be fitted with the harness adjusted properly so that she is ready to jump before boarding the plane. WTF?


disastercake

May 24, 2012, 1:30 PM
Post #60 of 230 (3855 views)
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In reply to:
I have spent a decent amount in Lodi and I still havn't seen Tandem Equipment that was nicer. All the rigs are practically new (Less than a season or two,) not to mention their main rigger is one of the best in the business IMO. I wouldn't blame this on Lodi or Bill. This is the TI's fault. This is not anyone else's fault. I don't give a fuck about his tandem rating he should never jump again even if it's by himself. He's bound to hurt anyone he's in the air with. That poor women jesus. She didn't sign up for that shit.

When a TI is working at a DZ, whether it's regularly or as a fill-in, it's the DZO's responsibility to know who is working for him, therefore the actions and negligence of any TI at a DZ IS the "fault" of the DZO who is allowing them to work there. It's the same in any other job/business. It's the DZO's responsibility to ensure the safety of the students and instructors, and uphold the integrity of his business as well as the sport as a whole.


feuergnom  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 1:40 PM
Post #61 of 230 (3825 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
This whole jump is just FUBAR but she may have not been saying no. I kind of thought it looked like she was having an issue with her legs
My dad made a jump at 85, and the TM peeled his hands off. But Dad told me later that he just didn't have his harness held exactly as the TM had said he wanted it (when you're old, you're not always all that flexible), he wasn't saying no.

But it only took 2 tries to peel him off -- this was way past that, never mind all the other appalling stuff in the video. Yeah, I'm glad it's out there too. Wendy P.

I am, too.
Pardon me if I sound "traitorous" or piss some of you off, but a few of the comments in here could be construed to endorse a cover-up mentality. Bad idea on a couple levels, IMO.

could you elaborate on this?????


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 24, 2012, 1:40 PM
Post #62 of 230 (3826 views)
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In reply to:
I have spent a decent amount in Lodi and I still havn't seen Tandem Equipment that was nicer. All the rigs are practically new (Less than a season or two,) not to mention their main rigger is one of the best in the business IMO. I wouldn't blame this on Lodi or Bill. This is the TI's fault. This is not anyone else's fault. I don't give a fuck about his tandem rating he should never jump again even if it's by himself. He's bound to hurt anyone he's in the air with. That poor women jesus. She didn't sign up for that shit.

So I guess it was ok for Dause to have an unrated TI on the payroll take a tandem passenger up in an aircraft that didn't receive mandatory inspections without belting her in for takeoff?

Yeah, ol' Billy sure runs a tight ship alright.

New gear or not, IMO Lodi is an ongoing nightmare waiting to happen. The unrated TI almost proved it.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

May 24, 2012, 1:44 PM
Post #63 of 230 (3817 views)
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If Bill walked up to the TM and punched and fired him the instant he saw this video (which a good employee would have immediately shown him), then maybe he gets some benefit of the doubt.

Wendy P.


marks2065  (D 18925)

May 24, 2012, 1:47 PM
Post #64 of 230 (3804 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I have spent a decent amount in Lodi and I still havn't seen Tandem Equipment that was nicer. All the rigs are practically new (Less than a season or two,) not to mention their main rigger is one of the best in the business IMO. I wouldn't blame this on Lodi or Bill. This is the TI's fault. This is not anyone else's fault. I don't give a fuck about his tandem rating he should never jump again even if it's by himself. He's bound to hurt anyone he's in the air with. That poor women jesus. She didn't sign up for that shit.

When a TI is working at a DZ, whether it's regularly or as a fill-in, it's the DZO's responsibility to know who is working for him, therefore the actions and negligence of any TI at a DZ IS the "fault" of the DZO who is allowing them to work there. It's the same in any other job/business. It's the DZO's responsibility to ensure the safety of the students and instructors, and uphold the integrity of his business as well as the sport as a whole.

I had 601 tandems and 2 said no, we stayed in the plane and landed with the plane. I was no big deal to me because everyone got what they wanted. I was also acused of having the harness to tight on my students, but I never had anything like the crap that has come out over the last 6-7 years happen to my students. This video is just another example of an instructor / DZ that forgot what a student jump is about. A fun, safe, and exilerating experience for the student, this is not any of those.This is about the student not the instructor's fun and money. Any instructors that can't forget about thier wants and desires should turn in their ratings.


-ftp-

May 24, 2012, 1:49 PM
Post #65 of 230 (3798 views)
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In reply to:
I have spent a decent amount in Lodi and I still havn't seen Tandem Equipment that was nicer. All the rigs are practically new (Less than a season or two,)

Good equipment is only worth a shit when its used properly. I mean seriously, what the hell does the quality of the equipment have to do with this?

If I was a DZO, number 1 an un-rated TI wouldn't be working for me.

Besides that, you think this is the first harness mistake this moron has made? If the DZO hasnt noticed, or he chose to ignore it, either way he has no place running a DZ. period end of conversation.


livendive  (D 21415)

May 24, 2012, 2:25 PM
Post #66 of 230 (3690 views)
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In reply to:
On one hand, it may help to educate some new instructors. It may cause reckless instructors to rethink their behavior. It may also motivate some to expose reckless instructors or DZs and cause them to go away or change their behavior.

This. It seems to me that, at least on UPT gear, there have developed a couple models for how students are harnessed, the UPT way, and the way that looks a lot more like this...where it's easier to slide leg straps down after opening, the chest strap is virtually non-existent, and the whole thing (especially above the hips) is loose walking to the plane. I've tried to discourage the second type because it just doesn't look safe, regardless of how many "cool" TI's use that approach. Personally, I get in the plane ready to exit. The only adjustment I do once in the plane is further tightening the uppers after hooking up.

Blues,
Dave


BillyVance  (D 18895)

May 24, 2012, 2:27 PM
Post #67 of 230 (3684 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I am truly amazed that people pull off stunts like these in suehappy america....

Note to all in Cali - waivers won't cover "gross negligence," which is "an extre.

Wasn't there a double fatality at Lodi some years ago where it was discovered that the TI was "drug-impaired" and did enough things wrong that resulted in a double malfunction, dooming the pair? The family of the deceased student sued, and I think, won the case.


uberchris  (A License)

May 24, 2012, 3:32 PM
Post #68 of 230 (3556 views)
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first thing i noticed was that her left shoulder strap was hanging halfway off her shoulder. im no TI, so i dont know if this is common practice when gearing up for exit......

2:05 she cleary says the word NO (but im no lip reader)

2:24 she starts screaming for her life.....

this was painful to watch


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

May 24, 2012, 3:47 PM
Post #69 of 230 (3520 views)
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In reply to:
As I've read through these posts, I am sorry to see a few posters expressing support for the camera guy trying to intervene. Seriously, WTF could he possibly do to help the situation????

IMO, all he is doing was transforming a potentially single fatality situation into a potentially triple fatality situation.

Tony,

I do not disagree with you and in this situation the video flyer could not do anything but I was commenting on him flying in after there was "stability" to see if he could help. I guess with a FUBAR situation like this you never know. He may have been able to do something although not likely so I do get your point but in a situation like that I cannot fault him for coming in for a few seconds to see if he could. I think he realized there was nothing he could do and he backed off. Maybe I am completely wrong and if I am I have no problem being told that and learning from it.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 24, 2012, 3:58 PM
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In reply to:
At what point will someone run Dause and his ilk out of town? And this is the home DZ for the USPA Regional Director for that area. Even though The Parachute Center isn't a USPA DZ, it seems to me that a Director jumping there is a pretty ringing endorsement of the place.

That's as "unfuckingbelievable" as anything else in all of this.

The problem is USPA does not have the horse power to do anything about this type of situation. If the FAA gets involved the back lash could affect everyone.

As for RD that jumps at Billís place he is a lackey that gives Bill a vote on the BOD without even being a member.

Sparky


livendive  (D 21415)

May 24, 2012, 4:07 PM
Post #71 of 230 (3481 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I am truly amazed that people pull off stunts like these in suehappy america....

Note to all in Cali - waivers won't cover "gross negligence," which is "an extre.

Wasn't there a double fatality at Lodi some years ago where it was discovered that the TI was "drug-impaired" and did enough things wrong that resulted in a double malfunction, dooming the pair? The family of the deceased student sued, and I think, won the case.

I suspect you're thinking of an incident at Skydance. There was a double mal tandem fatality there in which the instructor popped on post mortem. It was later determined to likely be just residuals, and not indicative of impairment at the time of the incident.

Blues,
Dave


livendive  (D 21415)

May 24, 2012, 4:13 PM
Post #72 of 230 (3465 views)
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In reply to:
As for RD that jumps at Billís place he is a lackey that gives Bill a vote on the BOD without even being a member.

What's with the fuss about an RD jumping at a dropzone that isn't a group member? Is Mullins similarly maligned? Personally, I either consider that a positive attribute or a non-factor, but certainly not negative. Of course, given the option, I'd choose a non GM dz over one that supports that stupid program too.

Blues,
Dave


Andy9o8  (D License)

May 24, 2012, 4:20 PM
Post #73 of 230 (3449 views)
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In reply to:
Is Mullins similarly maligned?

Does he deserve to be (in particular: by comparison)? Let that be your guide.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on May 24, 2012, 4:24 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 24, 2012, 4:48 PM
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In reply to:
Is Mullins similarly maligned?

By some yes, but Mike is also a member of USPA. Bill is not. Huge difference. Your personal opinion of the GM program has no bearing on this situation.

Sparky


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 24, 2012, 5:08 PM
Post #75 of 230 (3382 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
At what point will someone run Dause and his ilk out of town? And this is the home DZ for the USPA Regional Director for that area. Even though The Parachute Center isn't a USPA DZ, it seems to me that a Director jumping there is a pretty ringing endorsement of the place.

That's as "unfuckingbelievable" as anything else in all of this.

The problem is USPA does not have the horse power to do anything about this type of situation. If the FAA gets involved the back lash could affect everyone.

As for RD that jumps at Billís place he is a lackey that gives Bill a vote on the BOD without even being a member.

Sparky

I don't believe FAA involvement would create a backlash on the rest of us. It's pretty well demonstrated that Lodi is a bad apple. The feds - like them or not - seem pretty good about separating unsafe operations from everyone else.

For as long as I can remember people have feared that enforcement where it's warranted would lead to harassment where it's not, but that has yet to happen. How many times have we heard "if we don't clean up our act the feds will?"

Every FAA official I have worked with - and there have been many - asked that we follow the rules as written, nothing more, nothing less.


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

May 24, 2012, 5:21 PM
Post #76 of 230 (3726 views)
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Quite honestly the scariest thing I ever saw Crazy


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

May 24, 2012, 5:44 PM
Post #77 of 230 (3682 views)
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Video was taken down, but other poster put it here:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/tmh024


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

May 24, 2012, 5:49 PM
Post #78 of 230 (3669 views)
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In reply to:
Video was taken down, but other poster put it here:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/tmh024

Thank goodness the youtube video is taken down. Would scare potential students imo.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

May 24, 2012, 6:59 PM
Post #79 of 230 (3572 views)
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In reply to:
So I guess it was ok for Dause to have an unrated TI on the payroll take a tandem passenger up in an aircraft that didn't receive mandatory inspections without belting her in for takeoff?

Yeah, ol' Billy sure runs a tight ship alright.

New gear or not, IMO Lodi is an ongoing nightmare waiting to happen. The unrated TI almost proved it.

Where do you get that the TI was unrated? From the comments above he had his rating pulled after this event. There are other comments that he was not a USPA rated TI, but since The Parachute Centre is not a USPA DZ that is irrelevant. There is plenty to criticize here, but try not to make stuff up. Why not point to all the tandem fatalities that have occurred there over the last 30 years. It is a very high volume DZ so the odds must have caught up to them several times by now. Haven't they?


bclark  (D 22626)

May 24, 2012, 8:23 PM
Post #80 of 230 (3447 views)
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Don't use this link unless you want your browser hijacked. Mad


dqpacker  (D 32043)

May 24, 2012, 8:25 PM
Post #81 of 230 (3456 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Video was taken down, but other poster put it here:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/tmh024

Thank goodness the youtube video is taken down. Would scare potential students imo.

quit typing and just read. that video needs to be shown to everyone.
reloaded to utube.
http://www.youtube.com/...40&feature=share


(This post was edited by dqpacker on May 24, 2012, 8:27 PM)


jbnote  (C 36083)

May 24, 2012, 9:09 PM
Post #82 of 230 (3412 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I am truly amazed that people pull off stunts like these in suehappy america....

Note to all in Cali - waivers won't cover "gross negligence," which is "an extreme departure from the ordinary standard of conduct." While I'm no tandem master, I think that a woman falling ass first out of a harness ON EXIT shows a pretty extreme departure. If something worse had happened, that video...
-------------------------------------------------------------
I beg to differ, every waiver I have ever signed at my home DZ or while traveling has the "gross negligence" clause in it. Search google for "tandem waiver" just to see a few generic ones and you'll find the clause in there.

I've even signed a waiver that stated I would not sue the DZ/DZO etc. in the event of "Extreme Gross Negligence" which I found somewhat amusing.

I am IN NO WAY defending ANY of what is on the video. Nor am I saying that the waiver would necessarily hold up in court. Any law student could punch holes in nearly all our waivers if they were paid well enough to do so. The U.S. is far too eager to sue, that's undeniable. Sometimes, it's justified, other times it isn't.

Had this tandem ended up turning into a fatality (which we all agree came within a hair's breadth of doing so) then it would have been a clear case of "Gross Negligence" - at least from my non-legalese point of view.

BTW - Laverne looks a bit like a dude.


livendive  (D 21415)

May 24, 2012, 10:57 PM
Post #83 of 230 (3329 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Is Mullins similarly maligned?

By some yes, but Mike is also a member of USPA. Bill is not. Huge difference. Your personal opinion of the GM program has no bearing on this situation.

Sparky

Ah, I didn't realize Dause was no longer an individual member either. That said, I don't see how your personal opinion of Craig's allegiance to Bill has any bearing on this tandem jump. Craig may or may not be a lackey, and I don't really care either way. While I'll agree that if Bill is not a member, he should have no say in USPA activities, if Craig agrees with him, he's no worse than any of the other DZO's who are running this trade organization.

Blues,
Dave


livendive  (D 21415)

May 24, 2012, 11:00 PM
Post #84 of 230 (3325 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Video was taken down, but other poster put it here:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/tmh024

Thank goodness the youtube video is taken down. Would scare potential students imo.

What's wrong with letting them make informed decisions? A very small fraction of instructors really are that bad, and I can't think of a good reason to hide that from prospective students. The trick is putting it in perspective. That can be difficult on youtube, where the 1% of bad videos get 1000 times more views than the 99% of non-descript Tom Petty tandem videos.

Blues,
Dave


agentsmith413  (B 36115)

May 25, 2012, 1:11 AM
Post #85 of 230 (3251 views)
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I've been pretty desensitized thanks to the Internet over the years but this video fills me with all types of emotion. How someone can be so careless about an obviously scared tandem student to the point of almost killing them sickens me. This is the first video in a long time that has actually scared me and has been permanently been embedded in my head.

I certainly have mixed emotions about whether or not it's a good thing this is on the Internet. It could be good for new and experienced tandem instructors alike but could definitely scare new students away.

I don't feel bad for the TI at all and think he deserves to never skydive again no matter what kind of jump it is. He had a complete disregard for safety and compromised the integrity of this sport which we all love. I hope all TI's can learn from this idiot's major fuck up and something like this never happens again.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 1:38 AM
Post #86 of 230 (3239 views)
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Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Just when ya think you've idiot proofed something...along comes a better idiot! Crazy
Attachments: 1.jpg (67.7 KB)
  2.jpg (70.3 KB)
  3.jpg (65.0 KB)


nigel99  (D 1)

May 25, 2012, 2:18 AM
Post #87 of 230 (3219 views)
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Shit, seeing pic 1 It ias a miracle that she stayed in. Think she has joined Bill Cole and Travis as a chuteless jumper!


Hellis

May 25, 2012, 3:58 AM
Post #88 of 230 (3162 views)
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80 years old.
1 jump.

And gets about as much attention as Garry when he lands a wingsuit.
Tongue

I agree, looking at pic 1 is really disturbing.

But what strap is it that is dangeling at the shot when she is walking towards the plane?


stratostar  (Student)

May 25, 2012, 4:53 AM
Post #89 of 230 (3100 views)
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Ya know, I've seen a lot of in air rigging being done before, but I'll be damn if I've ever seen anyone try in an air harnessing of a student act........CrazyPirateMad


Now we can see why that never really took off as the "in thing" in student progressions.


livendive  (D 21415)

May 25, 2012, 5:42 AM
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In reply to:
But what strap is it that is dangeling at the shot when she is walking towards the plane?

Tough to be sure, but I think it's her backstrap. If so, it looks like it's below her butt, which would facilitate this sort of problem (exiting between the backstrap and the backpad).

Blues,
Dave


stratostar  (Student)

May 25, 2012, 6:01 AM
Post #91 of 230 (3010 views)
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...ing-tandem-dive.html

Media has it now.... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...ing-tandem-dive.html


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

May 25, 2012, 6:35 AM
Post #92 of 230 (2963 views)
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Great.... UnsureThe BPA sure seems quick to say "this does not happen in the UK". This is just sad. Horrible for the sport!


agentsmith413  (B 36115)

May 25, 2012, 6:39 AM
Post #93 of 230 (2952 views)
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just seeing the pictures really pisses me off. I can't even watch this again because it infuriates me that someone could be so thoughtless and careless.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
May 25, 2012, 6:42 AM
Post #94 of 230 (2947 views)
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In reply to:

Great.... UnsureThe BPA sure seems quick to say "this does not happen in the UK". This is just sad. Horrible for the sport!

What do you mean by quick? The BPA didn't solicit this interview. Neither is it the first quote (not that the 'reporter' couldn't have reordered the quotes. Plus he didn't say "this does not happen" he said there had never been a similar incident (which is true, and before anyone says it, yes, of course we do less tandems than the US, ~ 30,000 p.a.) What should he say, that he didn't?


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

May 25, 2012, 6:54 AM
Post #95 of 230 (2926 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:

Great.... UnsureThe BPA sure seems quick to say "this does not happen in the UK". This is just sad. Horrible for the sport!

What do you mean by quick? The BPA didn't solicit this interview. Neither is it the first quote (not that the 'reporter' couldn't have reordered the quotes. Plus he didn't say "this does not happen" he said there had never been a similar incident (which is true, and before anyone says it, yes, of course we do less tandems than the US, ~ 30,000 p.a.) What should he say, that he didn't?

Sorry.... translation loss in typing... what I meant by that was they quickly said this has not happened in the UK and pointed out it has happened here before (similar anyway) not faulting him for those quotes.... I would have said the same thing. I meant that he was quick and rightfully so to try and protect skydiving in his country. My bad!


airsport  (D 12544)

May 25, 2012, 7:06 AM
Post #96 of 230 (2900 views)
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I'm numb... Most amazing monumental screw up.... So unbelievable she wasn't tossed out of the harness during the spin or opening.


feuergnom  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 7:09 AM
Post #97 of 230 (2892 views)
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for all those not following the other thread:

i have been told that this vid was shown a skydive expo at the instructors meeting. attendants were told not to film it off the screen cause nobody wanted it to end up on youtube...
and yes, tjhis video is a year old...

my bottom line:
the whole things starts with sloppy initial training of tandem "instructors" - the whole instrucor thing uspa implemented is pretty worthless if something like this is actually happening. better to have a handpicked tandem-master that a jerk like that with an "I"-rating

next: even with the best initial training no I/E will change DZ-culture. If its cool and normal for longtime Joe Cool-"TI"s to board the plane with dangling harnesses and ride all the way up just to fasten everything up a minute before exit - well there your good intentions go out the door... and I know what I have been seeing the last ten years all over the place. And I am more than lucky to have the opposite attitude hammered into my head...

someone mentioned the y-mod: as much as I disliked having to use it I see why it was put into place: to protect unknowing students/passengers from the average droguechucking imbecile

do I have a suggestion how this could be solved? I know you won't like it: it's unannounced controls by the manufacturers of tandem gear if their rules are followed ( can anybody spell ramp-check?) - you are boarding the plane with a pax noit jumpready: There goes your rating... end of discussion, cause that is where the cash comes into the dz.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
May 25, 2012, 7:14 AM
Post #98 of 230 (2877 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

Great.... UnsureThe BPA sure seems quick to say "this does not happen in the UK". This is just sad. Horrible for the sport!

What do you mean by quick? The BPA didn't solicit this interview. Neither is it the first quote (not that the 'reporter' couldn't have reordered the quotes. Plus he didn't say "this does not happen" he said there had never been a similar incident (which is true, and before anyone says it, yes, of course we do less tandems than the US, ~ 30,000 p.a.) What should he say, that he didn't?

Sorry.... translation loss in typing... what I meant by that was they quickly said this has not happened in the UK and pointed out it has happened here before (similar anyway) not faulting him for those quotes.... I would have said the same thing. I meant that he was quick and rightfully so to try and protect skydiving in his country. My bad!

Cool. My over defensive mind read it another way.

This is why the video didn't need to be public. Putting unnecessary fear into the public. Despite explanation from an expert in the article, the comments clearly demonstrate that large portions of the public don't understand what's being told to them. Plus people will be making money off this video from advertising and traffic to their site.

I'm looking forward to doing tandems this weekend Unsure


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

May 25, 2012, 7:36 AM
Post #99 of 230 (2836 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

Great.... UnsureThe BPA sure seems quick to say "this does not happen in the UK". This is just sad. Horrible for the sport!

What do you mean by quick? The BPA didn't solicit this interview. Neither is it the first quote (not that the 'reporter' couldn't have reordered the quotes. Plus he didn't say "this does not happen" he said there had never been a similar incident (which is true, and before anyone says it, yes, of course we do less tandems than the US, ~ 30,000 p.a.) What should he say, that he didn't?

Sorry.... translation loss in typing... what I meant by that was they quickly said this has not happened in the UK and pointed out it has happened here before (similar anyway) not faulting him for those quotes.... I would have said the same thing. I meant that he was quick and rightfully so to try and protect skydiving in his country. My bad!

Cool. My over defensive mind read it another way.

This is why the video didn't need to be public. Putting unnecessary fear into the public. Despite explanation from an expert in the article, the comments clearly demonstrate that large portions of the public don't understand what's being told to them. Plus people will be making money off this video from advertising and traffic to their site.

I'm looking forward to doing tandems this weekend Unsure

Nah.... I just worded it poorly Crazy


matthewcline  (D 21585)

May 25, 2012, 7:37 AM
Post #100 of 230 (2836 views)
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It is not proven yet if the T-I was a USPA Rated T-I, it is still being hashed out, the few who say they "Know" say he was NOT a USPA T-I and not actually rated by the Manufacturer either. My point- I do not think USPA bears any blame in this incident.

As a former I/E made sure all my Candidates understood- Get on the plane ready to exit! Never rig in flight and never trap your student to you by doubling up on the seat belt.

Matt


alphamedak  (D 31708)

May 25, 2012, 7:47 AM
Post #101 of 230 (2612 views)
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Don't worry, they covered the runway with 18,000 cardboard boxes. If she had come out of the harness she would have landed just fine.


hchunter614  (B 30368)

May 25, 2012, 8:14 AM
Post #102 of 230 (2566 views)
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Did everyone see the stupid explaination given by Katie in the comments of the news story?


devildog  (C 40302)

May 25, 2012, 8:17 AM
Post #103 of 230 (2561 views)
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The one about physics, the tandem guy having to throw her out, and no one ever rides the plane back down?


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 25, 2012, 8:39 AM
Post #104 of 230 (2522 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Is Mullins similarly maligned?

By some yes, but Mike is also a member of USPA. Bill is not. Huge difference. Your personal opinion of the GM program has no bearing on this situation.

Sparky

Someone took the time to correct me on this statement. I apologize to Bill.

Sparky


hchunter614  (B 30368)

May 25, 2012, 8:42 AM
Post #105 of 230 (2509 views)
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Yep, that's the one. Apparently our planes land themselves because it's too dangerous to stay in the plane because it has to make a near vert dive to get to the ground and land on the runway before the jumpers do. Guess our pilots only get to fly one load before they are are seriously injured and have to be replaced.


hchunter614  (B 30368)

May 25, 2012, 8:47 AM
Post #106 of 230 (2504 views)
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just for fun reading here are Katies comments on that article...

- Katie, US, 25/5/2012 10:23
"You all clearly do NOT understand the physics at work here. Once in the plane, you MUST jump. The airplane makes a near vertical dive to land safely and get out of the way before the skydivers land on the SAME runway. It is not safe to stay in the plane. You would be seriously injured. He was not being cruel, he was trying to save her. Tandem divers are warned of this repeatedly, you are asked time and again if you are sure, because you can not ride back in the plane. They tell you they will literally shove you out the door to save your life. "

- Katie, US, 25/5/2012 10:51
"So it must be a 'drone' then? If it were 'not safe to stay in the plane', how come the pilot usually survives the trip? - Karen, UK, 25/5/2012 10:33 -------- The pilot is strapped in to ensure he does not suffer ill effects from the amount of G-forces pulled in order to get back to the ground, additionally many of the planes aren't equipped with more than enough fuel to go back and land, flying around for the 40+ minutes it would have required to wait for everyone else to land first likely wasn't an option. There is no other way to say this. No one else is allowed to ride back in the plane. This is a highly regulated industry. If you want to worry about something, worry about why the straps holding her in didn't' work. Shoving her out of a plane was a necessity."


airtwardo  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 8:48 AM
Post #107 of 230 (2497 views)
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In reply to:
Ya know, I've seen a lot of in air rigging being done before, but I'll be damn if I've ever seen anyone try in an air harnessing of a student act........CrazyPirateMad


Now we can see why that never really took off as the "in thing" in student progressions.


Watched the vid several times last night just to exercise my W.T.F. muscle...Unimpressed

Several things came to mind ~ I'd love to know exactly what the TI was thinking when he released the drogue. Someone mentioned he was a low-timer regarding tandems, did he realize what was going on or did he just pull the drogue to stop the obvious instability.

That being said, he certainly had his hands full at that point...I haven't done any tandems in 15+ years -so not being current, I wonder if one of you pro meat slingers could break it down for me just out of curiosity~ Would one be better off trying to gear up the student while in free-fall as opposed to drogue fall?

From the pics I posted it seems like not only was the student harness too loose, but the rig is floating pretty high off his back making for no possibility of using his legs to try and control the student...in the vid he tried pushing down on her feet.

Seriously, wouldn't the odds be better trying to square the passenger away without the drogue?

Then I had an even scarier thought...again just curious WTF thought process was going on -

~gotta wonder if it crossed his mind that pushing down on her feet would keep the leg straps at the back of the knees and might keep her in the harness during deployment...but holding her like that would mean bettin' the ranch on the AAD. Crazy

Can't really tell WHAT he's thinking during all of this, but to me anyway it seemed that the situation was SO overwhelming that confusion became panic as ideas & altitude ran out, so he 'pulled & prayed'.

Sometimes ya get lucky, but IF as a professional you put yourself AND a civilian in a position that luck is all you have...walk away from the sport.

The final thought I had after several viewings, was more outrage than just disbelief...

I'd hate to think what I would have 'done' had this TI put a loved one of MINE through this ordeal because of stupidity & incompetence... probably something along the line of 20 to life. Pirate


feuergnom  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 8:49 AM
Post #108 of 230 (2491 views)
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Quote:
t is not proven yet if the T-I was a USPA Rated T-I, it is still being hashed out, the few who say they "Know" say he was NOT a USPA T-I and not actually rated by the Manufacturer either. My point- I do not think USPA bears any blame in this incident.

As a former I/E made sure all my Candidates understood- Get on the plane ready to exit! Never rig in flight and never trap your student to you by doubling up on the seat belt.

from reading your comments over the last decade I understand that you are trying to make a difference - thx for the effort in your corner of the world. but what to do with all the other I/E's who take a (in?)differerent stance????


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
May 25, 2012, 9:12 AM
Post #109 of 230 (2444 views)
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In reply to:
Seriously, wouldn't the odds be better trying to square the passenger away without the drogue?

As I said earlier in this thread just before the drogue goes out, it is very reminiscent of the fatality on the Strong Side Spin video. With the separation increasing the spin, I don't think there was much else he could do at that point.


Abedy  (D 10153)

May 25, 2012, 9:19 AM
Post #110 of 230 (2425 views)
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Just found some photos about an 80-year-old lady named Geni from Munich who did her 100th tandem jump. This shows that 99,x% of all TIs are responsible folks who take good care of their students. Look at pic 21, you can see her harness is adjusted properly and she's wearing a proper jumpsuit.
An even better example is the video of Granny Ida's 100th tandem jump at age 82. Proper harness adjustment and proper briefing and even exiting a 182 is doable without problems.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
May 25, 2012, 9:26 AM
Post #111 of 230 (2409 views)
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In reply to:
Just found some photos about an 80-year-old lady named Geni from Munich who did her 100th tandem jump. This shows that 99,x% of all TIs are responsible folks who take good care of their students. Look at pic 21, you can see her harness is adjusted properly and she's wearing a proper jumpsuit.

Hmm, from the pictures, that looks like a fairly tight, demo DZ. One could argue that isn't the best care.

In reply to:
An even better example is the video of Granny Ida's 100th tandem jump at age 82. Proper harness adjustment and proper briefing and even exiting a 182 is doable without problems.

Having a camera on a student's chest strap could hit them in the face on opening. Again, one could argue it's not the best practice.

It also demonstrates that different people have different standards on what is considered acceptable. From what is shown, neither of those would be allowed in the UK.


-ftp-

May 25, 2012, 10:23 AM
Post #112 of 230 (2323 views)
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I also wonder if it would be better to take it a little low before deploying giving the woman a shorter time to have to hang on if she didnt fall out of the harness. I am not sure what thoughts were going through this "TI"'s mind, let's be honest that is one effed up situation to find yourself in.

I still am baffled how she stayed in on deployment, really the whole god damn even baffles me.


dorbie

May 25, 2012, 10:31 AM
Post #113 of 230 (2306 views)
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In reply to:
From what is shown, neither of those would be allowed in the UK.

But cloud busting is. Swings and roundabouts.


alphamedak  (D 31708)

May 25, 2012, 10:33 AM
Post #114 of 230 (2304 views)
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In reply to:
just for fun reading here are Katies comments on that article...

- Katie, US, 25/5/2012 10:23
"You all clearly do NOT understand the physics at work here. Once in the plane, you MUST jump. The airplane makes a near vertical dive to land safely and get out of the way before the skydivers land on the SAME runway. It is not safe to stay in the plane. You would be seriously injured. He was not being cruel, he was trying to save her. Tandem divers are warned of this repeatedly, you are asked time and again if you are sure, because you can not ride back in the plane. They tell you they will literally shove you out the door to save your life. "

- Katie, US, 25/5/2012 10:51
"So it must be a 'drone' then? If it were 'not safe to stay in the plane', how come the pilot usually survives the trip? - Karen, UK, 25/5/2012 10:33 -------- The pilot is strapped in to ensure he does not suffer ill effects from the amount of G-forces pulled in order to get back to the ground, additionally many of the planes aren't equipped with more than enough fuel to go back and land, flying around for the 40+ minutes it would have required to wait for everyone else to land first likely wasn't an option. There is no other way to say this. No one else is allowed to ride back in the plane. This is a highly regulated industry. If you want to worry about something, worry about why the straps holding her in didn't' work. Shoving her out of a plane was a necessity."
_____________________________

Who the hell is this idiot?


dorbie

May 25, 2012, 10:43 AM
Post #115 of 230 (2282 views)
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In reply to:
If Bill walked up to the TM and punched and fired him the instant he saw this video (which a good employee would have immediately shown him), then maybe he gets some benefit of the doubt.

Wendy P.

We need video or it never happened.Laugh


hallux  (C License)

May 25, 2012, 10:46 AM
Post #116 of 230 (2271 views)
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she was already out of the harness in the door. He had no choice but to throw the drogue, there was no fixing that with or without drogue.

to the person that made the comment about no jumpsuit....you are an idiot. the harness was no doubt too loose and the door position was wrong and the choice to leave was wrong, but that teal jacket saved her life. If it hadnt bunched up around her head then the lower back strap would not have hung around her neck, which was the only thing holding her upper body in.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
May 25, 2012, 10:50 AM
Post #117 of 230 (2257 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
From what is shown, neither of those would be allowed in the UK.

But cloud busting is. Swings and roundabouts.

Getting off topic here,and depends on your definition of cloud busting, but it is legal if it is clear from exit to opening and landing.

But I get your point, horses for courses (YMMV)


(This post was edited by cpoxon on May 25, 2012, 10:54 AM)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

May 25, 2012, 10:53 AM
Post #118 of 230 (2249 views)
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After watching this video a couple times, and my father's (also a standing exit), it might well be that a takeaway is that when you're TM'ing someone who isn't all that flexible, maybe a sitting exit, rather than a poised one, is going to be easier and calmer for the student.

She looked ready and willing before getting to the door; she was way off balance in the door, and very possibly in some pain -- lots of older folks just don't bend that far any more.

I know that standing exits are faster and more comfortable for the TM (and those are not inconsequential -- you stand to lose some control in trying to get someone from standing to sitting position I daresay).

Wendy P.


skydiver30960  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 11:05 AM
Post #119 of 230 (2210 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
just for fun reading here are Katies comments on that article...
_____________________________

Who the hell is this idiot?

My guess: someone close to the DZ or the former TI, in "survival mode" and trying to pacify the public by stacking lies on top of lies. And, in the process, she makes all of us look like even bigger jackasses.

Elvisio "sometimes I hate the internet" Rodriguez


lawrocket  (Student)

May 25, 2012, 12:23 PM
Post #120 of 230 (2088 views)
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In reply to:
I beg to differ, every waiver I have ever signed at my home DZ or while traveling has the "gross negligence" clause in it.

I limited my comment to California because I happen to know the rule about it here.

There was controversy about this issue that was clarified in California in Santa Barbara v. Superior Court (2007) 41 Cal.4th 747. But that court also stated:
Quote:
...the vast majority of out-of-state decisions hold that these agreements are void on the ground that public policy precludes enforcement of a release that would shelter aggravated misconduct. ďThe reasoning of the . . . out-of-state decisions . . . is based upon a public policy analysis that is different from the Ďpublic interestí factors considered under Tunkl . . . . Tunkl's public interest analysis focuses upon the overall transaction--with special emphasis upon the importance of the underlying service or program, and the relative bargaining relationship of the parties--in order to determine whether an agreement releasing future liability for ordinary negligence is unenforceable. By contrast, the out-of-state cases . . . focus . . . upon the degree or extent of the misconduct at issue,Ē as well as on the aforementioned public policy against sheltering aggravated misconduct. (41 Cal.4th at 758.)

Look - in Cali, the general negligence waiver is pretty solid. The courts held in Hulsey v. Elsinore Parachute Center (1985) 168 Cal.App.3d 333, that exculpatory contracts for participation in parachuting activities are not against public policy. This was ratified in Paralift, Inc. v. Superior Court (1994) 23 Cal.App.4th 748.

But for five years now, it's been the rule in California that gross negligence cannot be waived. And the issues with the passengers laterals and her harness tell me that the waiver that passenger signed wouldn't allow anybody to get out of the case quickly.

Thank GOODNESS she was all right.


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

May 25, 2012, 12:40 PM
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It's also made Gizmodo...

...who points out, "If the video doesn't deter you from ever jumping out of a plane, I don't know what will."

Luckily, all the commenters seem to be focused on a bungee jumping GIF that someone attached, rather than spouting the regular "skydivers are idiots and deserve to die" trollishness. UnsurePirate


Skyflyer3  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 12:51 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
And the issues with the passengers laterals and her harness tell me that the waiver that passenger signed wouldn't allow anybody to get out of the case quickly.

Loose laterals may cause a side spin but would never cause a passenger to slip out of the harness. In the video you can see the "instructor" fitting the harness to the customer and in the preloading scene, you see the back strap hanging loose. That was the major mistake. Second was forcing her out of the plane. Both should be actionable.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

May 25, 2012, 12:55 PM
Post #123 of 230 (2030 views)
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Making headlines in Polish national (tabloid) newspaper Pirate...:

http://www.fakt.pl/...tykuly,159177,1.html


Namowal  (A 63059)

May 25, 2012, 1:15 PM
Post #124 of 230 (1988 views)
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In reply to:

An old friend contacted me about it. After I told her the same stuff that's been said here (ill fitting harness, TM shouldn't have forced her out the door etc..) she added that she works for a reality show and they're planning to feature the video... Blush


Premier Remster  (C License)

May 25, 2012, 1:17 PM
Post #125 of 230 (1980 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:

An old friend contacted me about it. After I told her the same stuff that's been said here (ill fitting harness, TM shouldn't have forced her out the door etc..) she added that she works for a reality show and they're planning to feature the video... Blush

Yeah! Unimpressed

(not directed at you, Duckie... just the situation)


skydived19006  (D 19006)

May 25, 2012, 1:39 PM
Post #126 of 230 (3162 views)
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Quote:
This whole jump is just FUBAR but she may have not been saying no. I kind of thought it looked like she was having an issue with her legs
My dad made a jump at 85, and the TM peeled his hands off. But Dad told me later that he just didn't have his harness held exactly as the TM had said he wanted it (when you're old, you're not always all that flexible), he wasn't saying no.

But it only took 2 tries to peel him off -- this was way past that, never mind all the other appalling stuff in the video. Yeah, I'm glad it's out there too.

Wendy P.

If I ever have an inkling that someone doesn't want to jump before climbing out, I'll always reaffirm with them simply by asking "Do you want to skydive?!" They have to confirm that they do want to jump before we leave the airplane. Once back in, and the door closed I'll ask them again, also generally remind them that they've "spent their money either way." I personally do not care if they jump or not, they're not disappointing me, I have 4000 jumps, why should I care? I can ride down with them and save the pack job.

On a 182 load a year or so ago, I was in back while the other TI was in the process of exiting his student informed him "I don't think I can do this!" I don't remember what his response was, but it went back and fourth two or three times. Finally, I got in the middle of it, actually a bit helpful that I could look her in the face. I asked "Do you want to skydive?!" She again replied "I don't think I can do it!" I assured her that she could, and she climbed out. On the ground she cam to me and said "Thank you for getting firm with me up there." She wanted to jump, but was about to let her fear stop her.

It takes more than the physical ability, skill, and training to be a good TI. It also requires good decision making skills, especially under stress. This guy made a very poor decision at a fairly low stress point in time. I've refused to let more than one TI work at my DZ because I didn't trust their decision making skills.

Martin

Edit to add:
UPT calls their mod the "STUDENT HARNESS Butt Strap Retrofit Modification" It's not a "Y-mod" Ties from the "X" behind the back pad, across the lower back strap, then down to a "T" between the leg straps.

Take a look:
http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/..._09_36_51%5B1%5D.pdf


(This post was edited by skydived19006 on May 25, 2012, 1:49 PM)
Attachments: GOPR0037.jpg (75.7 KB)


mpohl

May 25, 2012, 4:18 PM
Post #127 of 230 (3015 views)
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Been retired from TI (UPT, Strong) duties for almost 7 years.

I always made sure to tell my passengers: "Smile into the camera. I will ask you: "Are you ready to skydive?" Simply, if we had video, this would be my assurance if anything went wrong.

Made about 500 tandem jumps. Never injured a passenger. Only the asshole dzo!

(i) One time passenger didn't want to get out. So, we retreated. Ordered the pilot/dzo for a a go-around. She was ready on the second pass. DZO wasn't happy because of additional flight time and associated costs;

(ii) On another occasion, solid cloud cover from 4-13k. Got up to about 13.5k. I needed less than 500 ft to get stable and deploy the drogue. But I wasn't going to take a chance w/ my or my passenger's life. You don't want to end up unstable in a grey oblivion where you can't tell up from down. Four tandems went, I refused and rode the plane down w/ my passenger.
We went back-up again within the hour. Had a good jump! But so did all the other four tandems; because every one of their videos was shit. Condensation on the camera!!!!

Difference between my fellow tandem instructors and me? I was pulling a $100k M-F, and I could afford to say NO!


mircan  (D 32291)

May 25, 2012, 4:32 PM
Post #128 of 230 (2997 views)
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In reply to:
I still am baffled how she stayed in on deployment, really the whole god damn even baffles me.

I`m baffeled too... To the point that I think this whole thing might be a hoax? It`s sooo "unreal". Could it be? Why?


Bellyflier  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 4:57 PM
Post #129 of 230 (2958 views)
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just seen it on Inside Edition. Scariest thing I've ever seen.


AndyBoyd  (D 16728)

May 25, 2012, 5:04 PM
Post #130 of 230 (2950 views)
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Just when ya think you've idiot proofed something...along comes a better idiot! Crazy

I watched the video (it's back up), and looked at the photos. I've done about 2,000 tandems, and I can't figure out what the hell happenned. I couldn't get a student in that position if I tried. Is it just that the harness is very loose, or is there something else going on? And if the harness is that fucked up, how in the world does the TM not notice this before he exits? Leaving the TM's incompetence aside, what in the hell happenned here?


stratostar  (Student)

May 25, 2012, 5:26 PM
Post #131 of 230 (2915 views)
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Quote:
what in the hell happenned here?

Some say, Coaching....?


(This post was edited by stratostar on May 25, 2012, 5:28 PM)
Attachments: lodi.jpg (25.7 KB)


hchunter614  (B 30368)

May 25, 2012, 5:48 PM
Post #132 of 230 (2889 views)
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It's on the front page of msn.com now.


wetrock

May 25, 2012, 5:48 PM
Post #133 of 230 (2888 views)
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the sun reported on the video the video too
http://www.thesun.co.uk/...-horribly-wrong.html


Namowal  (A 63059)

May 25, 2012, 6:16 PM
Post #134 of 230 (2861 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I still am baffled how she stayed in on deployment, really the whole god damn even baffles me.

I`m baffeled too... To the point that I think this whole thing might be a hoax? It`s sooo "unreal". Could it be? Why?

I was wondering if it was some kind of hoax or weird publicity stunt too, but I couldn't imagine how it was done or why they'd include the location hints at the beginning.

A few minutes ago I got a message from my "Reality Show" pal who says she just spoke to the woman...

...just hope this doesn't explode into a "See everyone? Skydiving is bad" hullabaloo..Shocked


nigel99  (D 1)

May 25, 2012, 6:27 PM
Post #135 of 230 (2851 views)
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What would have been funny is the ti exiting and the woman 'falling' out in the plane. It would have been a real wtf moment for the ti.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

May 25, 2012, 7:10 PM
Post #136 of 230 (2807 views)
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Loose laterals may cause a side spin but would never cause a passenger to slip out of the harness. In the video you can see the "instructor" fitting the harness to the customer and in the preloading scene, you see the back strap hanging loose. That was the major mistake. Second was forcing her out of the plane. Both should be actionable.
just a question on this? If the back strap is what keeps people in the harness, then how did all those thousands survive before the backstrap, like a vector II or Eclipse or Racer harness??

I personally learned on a vector II harness and never lost anybody


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 25, 2012, 7:12 PM
Post #137 of 230 (2805 views)
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In reply to:
It takes more than the physical ability, skill, and training to be a good TI.

At the very least it takes the maturity to realize that a jump with a student/tandem is not about ďme, meĒ. It is not something that can be taught or coached. Some may never reach the point where they should have responsibility for someone elseís life.

Sparky


jshiloh

May 25, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #138 of 230 (2788 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I am truly amazed that people pull off stunts like these in suehappy america....

Note to all in Cali - waivers won't cover "gross negligence," which is "an extreme departure from the ordinary standard of conduct." While I'm no tandem master, I think that a woman falling ass first out of a harness ON EXIT shows a pretty extreme departure. If something worse had happened, that video...
-------------------------------------------------------------
I beg to differ, every waiver I have ever signed at my home DZ or while traveling has the "gross negligence" clause in it. Search google for "tandem waiver" just to see a few generic ones and you'll find the clause in there.

I've even signed a waiver that stated I would not sue the DZ/DZO etc. in the event of "Extreme Gross Negligence" which I found somewhat amusing.

I am IN NO WAY defending ANY of what is on the video. Nor am I saying that the waiver would necessarily hold up in court. Any law student could punch holes in nearly all our waivers if they were paid well enough to do so. The U.S. is far too eager to sue, that's undeniable. Sometimes, it's justified, other times it isn't.

Had this tandem ended up turning into a fatality (which we all agree came within a hair's breadth of doing so) then it would have been a clear case of "Gross Negligence" - at least from my non-legalese point of view.

BTW - Laverne looks a bit like a dude.

You can put anything you want in a waiver or contract. That doesn't make it enforceable in a court of law. California (and most other states) has firmly established that you CANNOT waive gross negligence, no matter how hard anyone tries, because doing so violates public policy. If a plaintiff can prove gross negligence (as opposed to regular negligence) they will win in court, even if they signed a waiver expressly mentioning gross negligence. To make matters worse, including an attempt to waive gross negligence, intentional acts, etc can sometimes actually backfire. A court may rule that such a waiver is entirely void as "over reaching" or "unconcionable."


SkydiverDZO  (D 29918)

May 25, 2012, 7:44 PM
Post #139 of 230 (2772 views)
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I am a new DZO, but have some experience as an AFFI and TI. If they say "no", I am cool with it. They paid, TI gets paid and I don't have to pay for a pack job. Life is about making decisions. If you pay and change your mind at my DZ, we're jiggy with the decision.


Skyflyer3  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 8:03 PM
Post #140 of 230 (2732 views)
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It's all three back straps.
I can't speak to anything you used in the past.
If you had succesful jumps with overweight people without the use of a back strap, I don't see why it has been implemented, since.


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

May 25, 2012, 8:08 PM
Post #141 of 230 (2725 views)
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honestly who the hell posted it on youtube Unsure..
predictably gone viral.

Cheers
Shc


jbnote  (C 36083)

May 25, 2012, 8:19 PM
Post #142 of 230 (2712 views)
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lawrocket and jshiloh,

Thanks for the tips (truly, I am not being sarcastic).

I always figured the gross/extreme gross negligence clauses were a BS smokescreen. I guess those DZs where I've signed them (won't name names) just have them there as perhaps a first line of defense if an ill-informed jumper tries to sue. For example:

Student: I'm injured because your TI did X,Y,Z.
DZO: Sorry, but you signed the "Gross Negligence" clause, and our waiver is bullet-proof.
Student: Oh shit, ok, I shouldn't have done that. He's right, this waiver looks totally legit. Live and learn I guess.

I'm glad California seems to have started or added momentum to the trend of ditching the clause and making a more common-sense approach to the waivers and their legal possibilities. Truthfully, I'm surprised this is a state-to-state issue, but I know next to nothing about legal issues in skydiving.

Thanks to you guys for helping us learn more.

That said, I'm sure waiver/legal issues probably belong in a different forum . . . so we should switch to yelling about the TI so these posts don't get moved. Wink


demoknite  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 8:50 PM
Post #143 of 230 (2676 views)
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In reply to:
I am a new DZO, but have some experience as an AFFI and TI. If they say "no", I am cool with it. They paid, TI gets paid and I don't have to pay for a pack job. Life is about making decisions. If you pay and change your mind at my DZ, we're jiggy with the decision.

I know we have gone down the "cocky TI" road, but a lot of similar behavior of people pushing out unwilling students at other places comes from the DZO not wanting to do two passes because it costs money and puts hours on the plane. Not condoning this guys behavior by any means.


LyraM45  (B 26378)

May 25, 2012, 9:06 PM
Post #144 of 230 (2663 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I am a new DZO, but have some experience as an AFFI and TI. If they say "no", I am cool with it. They paid, TI gets paid and I don't have to pay for a pack job. Life is about making decisions. If you pay and change your mind at my DZ, we're jiggy with the decision.

I know we have gone down the "cocky TI" road, but a lot of similar behavior of people pushing out unwilling students at other places comes from the DZO not wanting to do two passes because it costs money and puts hours on the plane. Not condoning this guys behavior by any means.

Yep Unsure I had a bad experience one time at this particular dz where I saw traffic passing underneath us, I signaled and pointed it out to everybody behind me, and what did I get? Everybody yelling at me to go. That was probably my last jump at this place if I remember correctly. And it's not just Lodi.... other places pull the same crap and it's one of my pet peeves, especially since I work in air traffic control. I know how busy the skies are in Nor Cal.


lawrocket  (Student)

May 25, 2012, 9:32 PM
Post #145 of 230 (2636 views)
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BillyVance - make yourself useful and read her lips and tell us what she's saying.


Greig474  (D 1031)

May 25, 2012, 10:17 PM
Post #146 of 230 (2596 views)
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uh oh, first photo that comes up now when you type "skydive" on google, i didn't think this would affect tandem numbers that badly at first, now i'm not so sure


demoknite  (D License)

May 25, 2012, 10:36 PM
Post #147 of 230 (2582 views)
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In reply to:
uh oh, first photo that comes up now when you type "skydive" on google, i didn't think this would affect tandem numbers that badly at first, now i'm not so sure

Yeh, this one has legs unlike any bad incident we have seen in a long while. The damage control on this will be tough. Seeing as we have hit quite a few of the bases on this one, we still havent figured out "how the hell did this leak?" Especially if it happened a year ago.

/and it was edited...Unimpressed


dorbie

May 26, 2012, 12:56 AM
Post #148 of 230 (2498 views)
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It made the local news here (Bay Area), it wasn't just in the news broadcast though. It was used as the teaser broadcast throughout the evening to get people to tune in and watch later, including the shot of the PAX ass in the breeze clinging for life.


wetrock

May 26, 2012, 1:18 AM
Post #149 of 230 (2493 views)
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 Its got legs all rite about 600,000 views from various you tube channels alone in five days and that's before main stream media reports on the video.


nigel99  (D 1)

May 26, 2012, 2:04 AM
Post #150 of 230 (2466 views)
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In reply to:
uh oh, first photo that comes up now when you type "skydive" on google, i didn't think this would affect tandem numbers that badly at first, now i'm not so sure

No real damage done to the sport. I've seen a number of posts saying this has motivated them to book their tandem. People are funny and will figure that falling out of their harness is less of a risk. I mean an old lady managed to hang on so how hard can it be? (I'm giving a whuffo viewpoint, not mine)


redramdriver  (C License)

May 26, 2012, 3:13 AM
Post #151 of 230 (2490 views)
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The video made the cover page on Yahoo.com this morning when I looked...does "viral" mean any thing?


sacex250

May 26, 2012, 3:17 AM
Post #152 of 230 (2491 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
uh oh, first photo that comes up now when you type "skydive" on google, i didn't think this would affect tandem numbers that badly at first, now i'm not so sure

No real damage done to the sport. I've seen a number of posts saying this has motivated them to book their tandem. People are funny and will figure that falling out of their harness is less of a risk. I mean an old lady managed to hang on so how hard can it be? (I'm giving a whuffo viewpoint, not mine)
I'll bet that in the mainstream media an elderly woman comes off as a fool, and the TI comes off as a hero. After all, he did save her life!


billeisele  (A 5643)

May 26, 2012, 4:08 AM
Post #153 of 230 (2465 views)
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it's on MSN now, the general consensus is that it must be fake, it is a stunt man in a wig, woo hoo

deservedly so, this guy has been beat up but how does this stuff happen, wondering 3 things:

- how can a tandem passenger walk around a DZ, and board a plane with critical safety straps hanging down, does no one look at each other's gear?
- how can the 3 experienced jumpers nearest the exit participate in the activity or just let it happen - does no one have any sense?
- how does the TI get the passenger back into a vertical position for landing? the video doesn't appear to show her hanging upside down, great job for that


sasteam  (D 27719)

May 26, 2012, 4:35 AM
Post #154 of 230 (2450 views)
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Guess it's not a hoax...

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/...e-harness-after-jump


Andy9o8  (D License)

May 26, 2012, 4:38 AM
Post #155 of 230 (2447 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
honestly who the hell posted it on youtube

Do you STILL truly not get how bad a message that kind of commentary in here conveys? Seriously?


Bellyflier  (D License)

May 26, 2012, 5:26 AM
Post #156 of 230 (2403 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

they just announced that the DZ is facing more than $900,000 in federal fines.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

May 26, 2012, 5:33 AM
Post #157 of 230 (2394 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BillyVance - make yourself useful and read her lips and tell us what she's saying.

Something like "NO! NO!! NO!!!"

Then again, the TI if he has a hearing problem, might construe that as "GO! GO!! GO!!!"

I'm glad I don't do tandems. Unimpressed


markbdaniels  (B License)

May 26, 2012, 5:50 AM
Post #158 of 230 (2380 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

According to Laverne, she was not pushed out - http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/...-harness-after-jump/ Shocked


Southern_Man  (C License)

May 26, 2012, 6:06 AM
Post #159 of 230 (2355 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
honestly who the hell posted it on youtube

Do you STILL truly not get how bad a message that kind of commentary in here conveys? Seriously?

Anyhow, it appears that Laverne's sister posted it on Youtube.


theonlyski  (D License)

May 26, 2012, 6:07 AM
Post #160 of 230 (2357 views)
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In reply to:
Scary shit. Anyone else notice that you catch another clip at the end of what looks like people lining up to exit, the guys drogue is about half way out?

I didn't realize the PVC pipe was an option on Sigma drogues?

I only have a hand full of tandems, but before each one, I go thru my handles check, tell the student my handles are all in place, attachment check (shaking each attachment point), tell them they're all attached and snug, then ask them if they're ready to skydive. This is before the door even opens. Haven't had any refusals yet, but have had a couple people try to take the plane with us. Laugh

I usually get in their ear and tell them hands on their harness and relax... Fixes almost all of them so far.


(This post was edited by theonlyski on May 26, 2012, 6:33 AM)


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

May 26, 2012, 6:15 AM
Post #161 of 230 (2360 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
honestly who the hell posted it on youtube

Do you STILL truly not get how bad a message that kind of commentary in here conveys? Seriously?

when people are already cancelling tandems because of the video, then it was unnecessarily further damaging the sport. ... not to mention Lodi's owner saying "the TI did a good job" in a news interview.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

May 26, 2012, 6:22 AM
Post #162 of 230 (2352 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
honestly who the hell posted it on youtube

Do you STILL truly not get how bad a message that kind of commentary in here conveys? Seriously?

when people are already cancelling tandems because of the video, then it was unnecessarily further damaging the sport. ... not to mention Lodi's owner saying "the TI did a good job" in a news interview.

Seems he is mistaken, but he thinks FAA and Airplane manufacturer directed maintenance is excessive too.

The video should not be covered up or explained away with more falsehoods, sends the wrong message. We should breath easy she is safe on the ground and use this as an example and teaching moment. There are many lessons to learn here. Starting with Work Environment, they got lucky it was not a fatality like Ohio's.

Matt


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

May 26, 2012, 7:12 AM
Post #163 of 230 (2306 views)
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The video should not be covered up or explained away with more falsehoods, sends the wrong message. We should breath easy she is safe on the ground and use this as an example and teaching moment. There are many lessons to learn here. Starting with Work Environment, they got lucky it was not a fatality like Ohio's.

Matt

agree. in fact if this video had been seen shortly after it happened instead of well after...

maybe the person who fell from an "ultra-lite" not long ago, might have been saved...

the lesson Has to be Harnesses Matter <<<
In all activities, from paragliding to tandems to rock climbing to ziplining.....proper adjustments and stowage of excess, proper CONNECTION, in EVERY case. Don't people use a 'check list' anymore????Mad

While so many are upset that She seemed reluctant to exit, that isn't certain.. She WAS slow and moving awkwardly, ( but hell you should Expect that...)Unsure and maybe the TM shouldn't have pressed the issue....but They went>>>

Sadly, her body position on Exit which is Faaar from an arch... coupled with the loose harness is how she found herself as we see..... Had she settled into ANY sort of Open or flat body position,, instead of going fetal... we would not even have seen the video...
just glad she's ok

jmy


kawisixer01  (C 38984)

May 26, 2012, 8:07 AM
Post #164 of 230 (2267 views)
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Interesting to see the interview of her by the news station. It sorta verifies what I and a few other theorized earlier. That she wasn't backing out due to fear and not wanting to jump, just that the exit position was hurting her and her knees were in pain. I'm sure a little of what she was doing was fear based, but by her own statement she wanted to jump and her knees gave out at the door. Funny how a grown man with a tandem rig trying to cram himself over the top of an 80 year old lady like that could result in her knees giving out.


ufk22  (D 16168)

May 26, 2012, 8:32 AM
Post #165 of 230 (2244 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
honestly who the hell posted it on youtube

Do you STILL truly not get how bad a message that kind of commentary in here conveys? Seriously?
This should be a wake-up call to all of us, not just TIs. We can't look the other way when we know a TI that we wouldn't let someone we know jump with. Be it impairment, attitude, or just plain incompetence, allowing these people to continue endangers not just their passengers but our entire sport.
As a sidelight, it puzzles me that as an I-E, I can issue ratings but have no ability to suspend them. USPA ratings can only be suspended (temporary) by an S&TA (rating by appointment) or board member (position by election) but not by an I-E (earned rating)???


(This post was edited by ufk22 on May 26, 2012, 8:38 AM)


mikenewbie

May 26, 2012, 9:29 AM
Post #166 of 230 (2198 views)
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her knees were probably in pain because she was hangin in the door pause at 2:18 and her right legstrap is under her knee..... I could almost put my leg in there with all the slack you can see it for a split second slack is above leg b/c her right leg is hanging.


BlindBrick  (C 35382)

May 26, 2012, 10:00 AM
Post #167 of 230 (2175 views)
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Can someone with a little more experience confirm/debunk something for me?

People have been blasting the the videographer for interferring. I've seen this a few times and last night I paid attention to the videographer's actions. By the time he docks, the straps appear to have slid onto the upper calf of the passenger.

To me the videogrpaher appears to have actually grabbed the strap and moved it back up above the knee and into the reach of the TM who grabs it and snugs it up some more. This allows the passenger to beend her knees more which seems to play a major art in keeping her legs in the harness for deployment and canopy flight.

Am I reading that right?

-Blind


jclalor  (B 33202)

May 26, 2012, 11:12 AM
Post #168 of 230 (2126 views)
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Quote:
Quote:
In reply to:
Can someone with a little more experience confirm/debunk something for me?

People have been blasting the the videographer for interferring. I've seen this a few times and last night I paid attention to the videographer's actions. By the time he docks, the straps appear to have slid onto the upper calf of the passenger.

To me the videogrpaher appears to have actually grabbed the strap and moved it back up above the knee and into the reach of the TM who grabs it and snugs it up some more. This allows the passenger to beend her knees more which seems to play a major art in keeping her legs in the harness for deployment and canopy flight.

Am I reading that right?

-Blind

I beleive it has to do with him removing her hand from the door of the ac.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

May 26, 2012, 1:09 PM
Post #169 of 230 (2054 views)
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Quote:
I beleive it has to do with him removing her hand from the door of the ac.
I think BlindBrick was referring to the freefall part, where the videographer docks and apparently moves one strap within reach of the TM, allowing the woman to bend knees a little more, which means the videographer may possibly have contributed to saving her life? (so it seems, if watching the video carefully frame by frame?) Dangerous manoever, but imagine the feelings going through everybody at this point.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on May 26, 2012, 1:10 PM)


Zenister  (A 42)

May 26, 2012, 3:34 PM
Post #170 of 230 (1969 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
uh oh, first photo that comes up now when you type "skydive" on google, i didn't think this would affect tandem numbers that badly at first, now i'm not so sure

No real damage done to the sport. I've seen a number of posts saying this has motivated them to book their tandem. People are funny and will figure that falling out of their harness is less of a risk. I mean an old lady managed to hang on so how hard can it be? (I'm giving a whuffo viewpoint, not mine)
I'll bet that in the mainstream media an elderly woman comes off as a fool, and the TI comes off as a hero. After all, he did save her life!


casual survey of the comments on the various sites I've followed this video on support your bet. A few commentors with some skydiving knowledge (and a few who are clearly skydivers) try to educate them as to what really went wrong here, but you are dead on balls... the interpretation seems to be "she should have known better than to be skydiving at her age...." "poor instructor having to deal with that woman" etc...


raff

May 26, 2012, 4:53 PM
Post #171 of 230 (1906 views)
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NOT everybody who "thinks" they wanna skydive... SHOULD skydive..imho


jtYou are, of course, referring to the TI.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

May 26, 2012, 8:14 PM
Post #172 of 230 (1791 views)
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In reply to:
when people are already cancelling tandems because of the video, then it was unnecessarily further damaging the sport. ... not to mention Lodi's owner saying "the TI did a good job" in a news interview.

Is there any documented case of someone canceling a tandem because of this video? Unimpressed

Two separate groups showed up today specifically _because_ of the video; they wanted to see what it really looked like. Both ended up booking, one jumped. The other would have jumped had it not been for weather.

It's demonstrable; skydiving interest increases after any incident reported in the news.

It may not be the kind of 'marketing' that is good for the sport, but it does spark awareness that often turns to more business.


VideoFly  (D 25621)

May 26, 2012, 9:12 PM
Post #173 of 230 (1758 views)
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As a videographer, I have had occasions to document problems in skydives. At times I halted a jump after spotting a concern; typically a bad spot. Other times, I have blocked the door and notified the instructor of a problem, usually a studentís goggles off or upside down. However, once in freefall, although I have come in close to a student to film and let an instructor know what is happening, I never touched a student. While filling the spot of an instructor who lost his hold of an AFF student or trying to unwrap a drogue bridle has been tempting, I have always kept my hands off.

While I had a coach rating, I was not an AFF or tandem instructor. Therefore, I have been told by instructors that I was not allowed to touch a student in the air (unless I was coaching).

Iíve also been told that if I touched a student and a serious incident occurred, even after trying to help, I could become part of the problem; part of the chain of blame; and/or part of a law suit if one followed.

On one occasion, though tempted to try to remove a wrapped drogue bridle from a student and instructor, I stayed back, pointed to the problem, and filmed. The bridle was untangled by the instructor and after landing he thanked me for not coming in because he was about to deploy his reserve and did not need me in the mess.

I will stick with the plan that my job is to document and not intervene or interfere.


stratostar  (Student)

May 26, 2012, 11:10 PM
Post #174 of 230 (1720 views)
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http://www.kvor.com/...&itemid=29854511


wetrock

May 26, 2012, 11:52 PM
Post #175 of 230 (1701 views)
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tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

this would have been a much better song for the video
http://www.youtube.com/...ed&v=Le-3MIBxQTw

CBS Reports
Parachute Center Tainted With Accidents, Safety Issues
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/...dents-safety-issues/

Extended Interview With Woman Who Slipped From Harness While Skydiving
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/...ess-while-skydiving/

80-Year-Old Falls Out Of Parachute Harness After Jump
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/...-harness-after-jump/

Public Weighs In On 80-Year-Old Skydiving Woman

they are watching you look out
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/...old-skydiving-woman/


SpectreDriver  (D 26287)

May 27, 2012, 3:41 AM
Post #176 of 230 (3261 views)
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Re: [wetrock] tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Perfect timing on this video, too. Right in the middle of Memorial Day weekend, one of my busiest. Sunday's tandems will be arriving in a few hours-- or not.

As someone mentioned earlier, I think the exit had a LOT to do with this. By rolling OVER her he basically peeled the harness right off!

Nobody's mentioned this TIs name?? I'd like to know. As would other DZOs who get a dozen resumes a year from self-proclaimed SkyGods we don't know from Adam...


TitaniumLegs  (D 19246)

May 27, 2012, 8:54 AM
Post #177 of 230 (3168 views)
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Re: [markbdaniels] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
According to Laverne, she was not pushed out - http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/...-harness-after-jump/ Shocked
In reply to the question what's next on her bucket list...
"Well I never have ridden in a race car"
Good for her.

Lucky for them.


TitaniumLegs  (D 19246)

May 27, 2012, 9:00 AM
Post #178 of 230 (3162 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Every FAA official I have worked with - and there have been many - asked that we follow the rules as written, nothing more, nothing less.
Ditto.
All the FAA guys I've dealt with have been extremely helpful. Generally nicer people than some airport managers, and even a few DZOs.


bclark  (D 22626)

May 27, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #179 of 230 (3152 views)
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In reply to:
I don`t know why it`s banned, but here is Sendspace link

If you were foolish, unlucky, or desperate enough to try to use this link to watch the video during the brief time it was unavailable on youtube (like me), you may have had your web browser hijacked by "searchnu.com/406."

Here is a link to a page to help you get your stuff straight again: http://deletemalware.blogspot.ca/...uninstall-guide.html.

Sorry to get off topic, but I know at least a few others had this happen to them.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 27, 2012, 9:41 AM
Post #180 of 230 (3146 views)
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Re: [Abedy] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... Folks at Arnstadt were planning on chartering a Beech and TIs talked about how to get out the door and folks who have already jumped from one said that a sitting exit is the most sensible one. ...
"

.....................................................................

The best way to take tandem students out of King Airs is to sit them on a bench similar to .. the King Air in the video.
Tell students to cross their arms across their chests, and put their toes on the door sill.
The quicker you can get them out the door the better.
The worst thing you can do is fumble in the door as long as the TI in the video.

Aside: I have done about 2,000 tandems out of King Airs, but will never fly in another King Air in this lifetime.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 27, 2012, 9:48 AM
Post #181 of 230 (3144 views)
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Sorry, but I have only sewn Y-straps onto 20 Strong tandem harnesses and I am not familiar with UPT Y-straps.
The Strong Y-strap is sewn to the diagonal back straps inside the back pad. Part of it goes straight down the spine, then it splits below the lower, horizontal back-strap to connect with the leg straps.
So there is a direct load path - down the center of the spine - from the shoulder snaps to the leg straps.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 27, 2012, 10:20 AM
Post #182 of 230 (3114 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
...
As a sidelight, it puzzles me that as an I-E, I can issue ratings but have no ability to suspend them. USPA ratings can only be suspended (temporary) by an S&TA (rating by appointment) or board member (position by election) but not by an I-E (earned rating)???
"

......................................................................

As a Strong Tandem Examiner, all I have to do is write an angry letter to the (Strong) factory, and they will lose their (Strong) TI rating.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 27, 2012, 10:29 AM
Post #183 of 230 (3100 views)
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"
In reply to:
... I don't believe FAA involvement would create a backlash on the rest of us. It's pretty well demonstrated that Lodi is a bad apple. The feds - like them or not - seem pretty good about separating unsafe operations from everyone else.
...
"

........................................................................

The Workman's Compensation Board of British Columbia, Canada is suing Bill Dause.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 27, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #184 of 230 (3081 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... I didn't realize the PVC pipe was an option on Sigma drogues? ...
'

........................................................................

PVC pipe was standard on Vector drogues.


livendive  (D 21415)

May 27, 2012, 12:27 PM
Post #185 of 230 (3025 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sorry, but I have only sewn Y-straps onto 20 Strong tandem harnesses and I am not familiar with UPT Y-straps.
The Strong Y-strap is sewn to the diagonal back straps inside the back pad. Part of it goes straight down the spine, then it splits below the lower, horizontal back-strap to connect with the leg straps.
So there is a direct load path - down the center of the spine - from the shoulder snaps to the leg straps.

The UPT mod is pretty much the same. I was incorrect on that count in my previous post.

Blues,
Dave


AlRedler  (D 6021)

May 27, 2012, 11:36 PM
Post #186 of 230 (2843 views)
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The video is on the ipad version of the Times newspaper in the UK this morning. It is linked to an article about Felix's altitude record attempt rather inappropriately.


ufk22  (D 16168)

May 28, 2012, 4:17 AM
Post #187 of 230 (2758 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"
In reply to:
...
As a sidelight, it puzzles me that as an I-E, I can issue ratings but have no ability to suspend them. USPA ratings can only be suspended (temporary) by an S&TA (rating by appointment) or board member (position by election) but not by an I-E (earned rating)???
"

......................................................................

As a Strong Tandem Examiner, all I have to do is write an angry letter to the (Strong) factory, and they will lose their (Strong) TI rating.
From the USPA side of things, shouldn't the person who has the authority to issue the rating also have the ability to suspend it (pending board review) ?


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
May 28, 2012, 7:05 AM
Post #188 of 230 (2688 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

FAA investigates:

http://www.avweb.com/...7-1.html?CMP=OTC-RSS


FAA Investigates Tandem Skydiving Scare
Email this article |Print this article

By Russ Niles, Editor-in-Chief

The FAA has paid a visit to a California skydiving company after video of some unplanned excitement vaulted it to Internet stardom earlier this week. It's been more than a year since an 80-year-old grandmother identified only as Laverne took a bucket-list tandem jump with the Parachute Center in Acampo, Calif., that may have got her a little closer to her maker than she bargained for. Laverne is seen having second thoughts in the aircraft door before she is encouraged to join the fun by her tandem partner and the cameraman. Laverne somehow slips out of her harness and makes most of the journey earthward in an undignified position in the grip of her partner. At one point during the freefall the cameraman moves in to help keep hold of Laverne. They landed none the worse for wear and that was the end of the story until the video hit theChive.

The video caught the attention of the networks and the Parachute Center has fielded numerous requests for comment with a variation of the statement made to the New York Daily News, which quoted an unnamed employee. "No one got hurt," the employee said. "The equipment worked properly." The FAA decided to check that out and spent part of Saturday interviewing staff and going over records.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

May 28, 2012, 8:04 AM
Post #189 of 230 (2635 views)
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Re: [livendive] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Sorry, but I have only sewn Y-straps onto 20 Strong tandem harnesses and I am not familiar with UPT Y-straps.
The Strong Y-strap is sewn to the diagonal back straps inside the back pad. Part of it goes straight down the spine, then it splits below the lower, horizontal back-strap to connect with the leg straps.
So there is a direct load path - down the center of the spine - from the shoulder snaps to the leg straps.

The UPT mod is pretty much the same. I was incorrect on that count in my previous post.

Blues,
Dave

.....................................................................

After many of the student harnesses had been retro-fitted with Y-straps, Strong Ent. admitted that they may have panniced.
After too many students complained that Y-straps prevented them from lifting their legs for landing, Strong said "just leave the Y-straps slack."
Hint: most of the complaining students looked like they had not done a sit-up in this century!
Hah!
Hah!

UPT took a different tack, waiting longer before introducing their version of a Y-strap, and made their Y-strap slightly better. UPT added some bungee cord from dangling if the TI forgot to tighten it. UPT claims that their bungee cord removes some of the jolt when a student "bottoms out" (yes, I know it is a bad pun) on the Y-strap.

In the end, both tandem manufactures admit that Y-straps are redundant. Y-straps will only matter if a TI forgets to tighten all the other straps ... and are cheap insurance compared with the foolishness that started this thread.


Wags  (D 18288)

May 28, 2012, 1:02 PM
Post #190 of 230 (2462 views)
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Nobody could say for sure, but I wonder what would have happened if he would have done side spin recovery techniques? I never even saw him put his hands out to attempt an arch on exit.
Maybe this was discussed earlier, sorry, I didnít read the entire thread.

Iíve had two tandems that started into side spins, and I went fetal (on our backs) to get control of the student, then pulled them into the arch, and we flipped nicely in to a stable face to earth position, and I deployed the drogue into clean air.

Going on your back intentionally in a tandem is something that seems very unnatural, and counterproductive, but in a side spin, the worst thing to do is keep a hard arch as the student further separates from you. The hard arch from the instructor at this time will further add to the propeller effect, and the speed of the spin. This is what killed the people before side spins were studied and solutions were found. This TI dumped his drogue, and was lucky it didnít snag on anything, that would have made a bad situation, even worse.

I am not in any way saying I could have handled this better, but just want to know what others think.
The key to good side spin recovery is to act fast, not sure if he could have gone fetal quick enough, but it does help to get control of your student. If you are able to capture their legs, you are golden!

Here is a link to a video of one of my side spins. I am sure some will think I did the wrong thing, I am not posting here so I can be flogged, but for the added discussion on the topic. I am sure many out there have seen the side spin training videos, and I was following what they suggest to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET9jfZtcQsU

Wags


pookieland  (Student)

May 28, 2012, 1:27 PM
Post #191 of 230 (2440 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

INSANE MAN!!!


wetrock

May 28, 2012, 1:53 PM
Post #192 of 230 (2419 views)
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Re: [Wags] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wags

This would not have worked for granny as she was out of her harness before she left the plane.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

May 28, 2012, 2:28 PM
Post #193 of 230 (2398 views)
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Re: [mircan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Made the front-page headlines in the main Polish newspaper (its online edition)...:

http://deser.pl/..._Prawie_wypadla.html


Wags  (D 18288)

May 28, 2012, 4:08 PM
Post #194 of 230 (2337 views)
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In reply to:
Wags

This would not have worked for granny as she was out of her harness before she left the plane.

Agreed, she was sliding out, but just out of the plane they were not separated enough where he couldnít have captured her.

I think he could have gone on to his back, (her now in his burble) and pulled her up, capture her legs, and arch. It would have been some work, but I think it could have been done. Again, going on your back in a tandem seems like a bad position to be in, but it gives you an adavantage.

Obviously the best thing would have been to have the harness tight to start with. I have had several students tell me that I have the rig uncomfortably tight just before the jump, but they later say that it didnít feel tight in free-fall.

Wags


robinheid  (D 5533)

May 28, 2012, 5:03 PM
Post #195 of 230 (2303 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
when people are already cancelling tandems because of the video, then it was unnecessarily further damaging the sport. ... not to mention Lodi's owner saying "the TI did a good job" in a news interview.

Is there any documented case of someone canceling a tandem because of this video? Unimpressed

Two separate groups showed up today specifically _because_ of the video; they wanted to see what it really looked like. Both ended up booking, one jumped. The other would have jumped had it not been for weather.

It's demonstrable; skydiving interest increases after any incident reported in the news.

It may not be the kind of 'marketing' that is good for the sport, but it does spark awareness that often turns to more business.

+1

Kinda funny how the whuffos get it but not the skgods.

44
Cool


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 28, 2012, 6:28 PM
Post #196 of 230 (2253 views)
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Nice job of recognizing and controlling.

Sparky


NotASalmon  (D 21412)

May 30, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #197 of 230 (1803 views)
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Am I the only one who sees tandem exit flips as reckless? What ever happened to a stable exit and quick drogue deployment? Of the 5 or 600 tandems I did back in the day, I never exited in a fetal position. If memory serves, such exits are highly frowned upon by the manufacturers. Sure would like to see a replay of this jump with a stable exit, drogue side up...you know...the way we were all trained...2 cents...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 30, 2012, 3:08 PM
Post #198 of 230 (1743 views)
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Re: [NotASalmon] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

>Of the 5 or 600 tandems I did back in the day, I never exited in a fetal position.

We used to exit that way out of the King Air, mainly for snag prevention. (That was a very small door for a big tandem to fit out.) It was usually possible to get stable head-to-earth pretty quickly though, akin to a late diving exit on a bigway.


NotASalmon  (D 21412)

May 30, 2012, 4:41 PM
Post #199 of 230 (1699 views)
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Re: [billvon] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure, same as a 206 cargo door exit. Student would sit on my lap, all legs outside the door, roll out into hard arch, drogue out quick. It's the fetal roll I don't get. If Houdini were to escape from a tandem harness, five'll get you ten he'd do it in a fetal position. Never had a problem launching out of King Air's. Student squats or sits, my left foot in the door jam, roll out slow and once clear, launch with the left foot, big arch, drogue out.


bigdad510  (D 29900)

May 31, 2012, 10:08 PM
Post #200 of 230 (1439 views)
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Re: [Wags] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

WAGS,
Just posted on your youtube. I'll tell you, for as many times as I watch the side-spin videos, having a more "recent" video is even more reassuring that the technique works for getting out of them. Thanks for the post!


sky4meplease  (D 30360)

Jun 1, 2012, 5:00 AM
Post #201 of 230 (2994 views)
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When I watched this video I thought the TI was going to break granny's legs trying to force her out of the aircraft.

It seemed to me he felt rushed. Plane full of jumpers behind him, jump run being strung out, camera guy filming from outside the jump ship.

Maybe they should have taken a step back to regroup.

Most tandem students are scared to shit and will act unpredictably in the face of that fear. Knowing when that fear may affect the safety of the jump is the mark of a true instructor. Once you think you have seen it all.... it's time to find a new discipline or sport.

All students are different, there is no magically safe tandem exit and skydiving is dangerous. That's what makes being a tandem instructor so awesome!


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jun 1, 2012, 7:47 AM
Post #202 of 230 (2936 views)
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Re: [sky4meplease] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is the FULL interview with her:

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/...ess-while-skydiving/


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Jun 1, 2012, 7:47 AM)


NotASalmon  (D 21412)

Jun 1, 2012, 8:19 PM
Post #203 of 230 (2780 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow...what a grand lady...I'd be proud to take her on her 85th birthday...What'd she weigh, 90lbs?...easy exit, quick drogue release...too bad a junior TI was chosen' to do a mans job..


(This post was edited by NotASalmon on Jun 1, 2012, 8:27 PM)


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Jun 1, 2012, 8:41 PM
Post #204 of 230 (2770 views)
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Re: [NotASalmon] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow...what a grand lady...I'd be proud to take her on her 85th birthday...What'd she weigh, 90lbs?...easy exit, quick drogue release...too bad a junior TI was chosen' to do a mans job..

So, a TI with 3000 tandems to his credit is a junior TI? Crazy


NotASalmon  (D 21412)

Jun 1, 2012, 9:09 PM
Post #205 of 230 (2761 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

If he tumbles out in a fetal...Yup. Go ahead and explain it away...Ever read the manual?...Seems like we used to have rules to LIVE by...


(This post was edited by NotASalmon on Jun 1, 2012, 9:17 PM)


NotASalmon  (D 21412)

Jun 1, 2012, 9:30 PM
Post #206 of 230 (2752 views)
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Re: [NotASalmon] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Name me one discipline in skydiving where an unstable exit is acceptable for a first time jumper, and I'll be done here.

My name is Scott Jennings...D-21412


(This post was edited by NotASalmon on Jun 1, 2012, 10:16 PM)


bakerjan

Jun 3, 2012, 12:46 PM
Post #207 of 230 (2558 views)
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In reply to:
Name me one discipline in skydiving where an unstable exit is acceptable for a first time jumper, and I'll be done here.

My name is Scott Jennings...D-21412

What are you trying to say. There are no disciplines for first time jumpers just a first jump.


NotASalmon  (D 21412)

Jun 3, 2012, 6:30 PM
Post #208 of 230 (2453 views)
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Re: [bakerjan] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Static line (old days), AFF, AFP. Sorry, I guess I didn't word that correctly. First time jumps are exciting enough, no need for the somersaults and delayed drogue toss.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jun 3, 2012, 7:07 PM
Post #209 of 230 (2442 views)
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Re: [NotASalmon] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Not defending the hammerhead that tried to kill this lovely lady.....BUT.....we are taught unstable exits for a reason, no?
Surely an elderly student needs a radical exit every now and then!
Angelic


(This post was edited by normiss on Jun 3, 2012, 8:53 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Jun 3, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #210 of 230 (2434 views)
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In reply to:
Not defending the hammerhead that tried to kill this lovely lady.....BUT.....we are taught unstable exits for a reason, no?
Surely an elderly student needs a radical exit every now any then!
Angelic

Well if she is going to learn to free fly she should at least have been wearing a gopro. Everybody knows you're not a real free flier till you wear a cameraTongue


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Jun 3, 2012, 8:54 PM
Post #211 of 230 (2399 views)
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In reply to:
If he tumbles out in a fetal...Yup. Go ahead and explain it away...Ever read the manual?...Seems like we used to have rules to LIVE by...

That jump just proved that it doesn't matter how many fucking tandems you've done. If you get complacent even once, like this guy did, shit will get fucked up.

He had 3000 tandems and still fucked up. Still inexcusable, but it doesn't make him a junior TI. Hell, I've never heard of anybody being called a junior TI. Laugh New, or inexperienced, yeah.


NotASalmon  (D 21412)

Jun 4, 2012, 9:54 PM
Post #212 of 230 (2130 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If he tumbles out in a fetal...Yup. Go ahead and explain it away...Ever read the manual?...Seems like we used to have rules to LIVE by...

That jump just proved that it doesn't matter how many fucking tandems you've done. If you get complacent even once, like this guy did, shit will get fucked up.

He had 3000 tandems and still fucked up. Still inexcusable, but it doesn't make him a junior TI. Hell, I've never heard of anybody being called a junior TI. Laugh New, or inexperienced, yeah.

Complacent? What the hell is that? 3000 tandems and he's become complacent? 3000 lives saved, and he's become "complacent". Bullshit.

As long as I live, they live. Complacency doesn't factor. Professionalism does. He's a junior TI.

What's his name? Give us his USPA number. I don't believe for a minute that he had anywhere near 3000 tandems. Complacent...that's funny...Don't want to smirch his good record...In all my 100's of tandem videos I've shot, I've never witnessed that kind of...complacency.

This TI wasn't complacent. He was either poorly trained, or chose to ignore said training. That's it. If this was the first time he fucked up...I'll eat my drogue.


NotASalmon  (D 21412)

Jun 4, 2012, 10:45 PM
Post #213 of 230 (2115 views)
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Hey guys, sorry for hijacking this thread. I'm out of the business, just butting in. Blue skies folks, carry on, no offense intended. I hope the day never comes that I can't see my brothers and sisters popping canopies somewhere.
Again, Bue Skies from the heart.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Jun 24, 2012, 6:35 AM
Post #214 of 230 (1654 views)
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Re: [Wags] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nobody could say for sure, but I wonder what would have happened if he would have done side spin recovery techniques? I never even saw him put his hands out to attempt an arch on exit.
Maybe this was discussed earlier, sorry, I didnít read the entire thread.

Iíve had two tandems that started into side spins, and I went fetal (on our backs) to get control of the student, then pulled them into the arch, and we flipped nicely in to a stable face to earth position, and I deployed the drogue into clean air.

Going on your back intentionally in a tandem is something that seems very unnatural, and counterproductive, but in a side spin, the worst thing to do is keep a hard arch as the student further separates from you. The hard arch from the instructor at this time will further add to the propeller effect, and the speed of the spin. This is what killed the people before side spins were studied and solutions were found. This TI dumped his drogue, and was lucky it didnít snag on anything, that would have made a bad situation, even worse.

I am not in any way saying I could have handled this better, but just want to know what others think.
The key to good side spin recovery is to act fast, not sure if he could have gone fetal quick enough, but it does help to get control of your student. If you are able to capture their legs, you are golden!

Here is a link to a video of one of my side spins. I am sure some will think I did the wrong thing, I am not posting here so I can be flogged, but for the added discussion on the topic. I am sure many out there have seen the side spin training videos, and I was following what they suggest to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET9jfZtcQsU

Wags


That was awesome! A true expert shown in action! Hats off.


raff

Jun 26, 2012, 5:38 AM
Post #215 of 230 (1501 views)
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Re: [sky4meplease] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

.... That's what makes being a tandem instructor so awesome!The main thing "awesome" about being a TI is the responsibility. Once one loses sight of that, things can go to hell in a hurry.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jun 26, 2012, 8:39 AM
Post #216 of 230 (1467 views)
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In reply to:
.... That's what makes being a tandem instructor so awesome!
The main thing "awesome" about being a TI is the responsibility. Once one loses sight of that, things can go to hell in a hurry.
The truth.

Matt


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jun 26, 2012, 9:25 AM
Post #217 of 230 (1446 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
.... That's what makes being a tandem instructor so awesome!
The main thing "awesome" about being a TI is the responsibility. Once one loses sight of that, things can go to hell in a hurry.

The truth.

Matt
+1

Funny story on that score. The Bush twins made tandem jumps at a SoCal DZ in July 2001, and the same TI was tasked with taking them both because he was the DZ's best.

So I asked him afterward how it felt to have the lives of the President's daughters in his hands. His reply:

"I just kept saying to myself, 'Don't hurt the President's daughters or the IRS will audit you for life. Don't hurt the President's daughters or the IRS will audit you for life.'"

44
Cool


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jun 26, 2012, 9:42 AM
Post #218 of 230 (1437 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the T-I's that took their Grandfather on his Tandems told me a similar story, but his was with a CIA van and long lost lands.

Matt


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jun 26, 2012, 10:21 AM
Post #219 of 230 (1417 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One of the T-I's that took their Grandfather on his Tandems told me a similar story, but his was with a CIA van and long lost lands.

Matt

I think the word you're looking for is "Rendition".


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jun 26, 2012, 10:31 AM
Post #220 of 230 (1405 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
One of the T-I's that took their Grandfather on his Tandems told me a similar story, but his was with a CIA van and long lost lands.

Matt

I think the word you're looking for is "Rendition".

What do you mean, I'm now an enemy combatant?????

Sly


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jun 26, 2012, 10:44 AM
Post #221 of 230 (1398 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
One of the T-I's that took their Grandfather on his Tandems told me a similar story, but his was with a CIA van and long lost lands.

Matt

I think the word you're looking for is "Rendition".

Maybe, there was an IRS agent, SS Agent, and a dude from NASA too.

Matt


av8rdav  (C 24395)

Oct 9, 2012, 10:22 PM
Post #222 of 230 (1010 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

The instructor didn't, in a way, force her out the door. Search for the Today Show video and you can hear from her the story. You are all judging the instructor without knowing the full story. Video does not always reveal everything that was going on at the time.


(This post was edited by av8rdav on Oct 9, 2012, 10:23 PM)


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Oct 10, 2012, 1:47 AM
Post #223 of 230 (979 views)
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Re: [av8rdav] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The instructor didn't, in a way, force her out the door. Search for the Today Show video and you can hear from her the story. You are all judging the instructor without knowing the full story. Video does not always reveal everything that was going on at the time.

Or, she was bribed to say so. Unimpressed


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 10, 2012, 5:50 AM
Post #224 of 230 (928 views)
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Re: [av8rdav] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The instructor didn't, in a way, force her out the door. Search for the Today Show video and you can hear from her the story. You are all judging the instructor without knowing the full story. Video does not always reveal everything that was going on at the time.

The problem with listening to what she says is that's way after the fact. This jump happened sometime last year, and the video didn't go viral until one of her relatives posted it online.

So you have a woman who made a jump, was unharmed, and felt like she had a good time and was well taken care of. In her minds eye, everything went according to plan, and she held those beliefs for a year.

How many tandem students have you seen who are scared shitless in the door, and only end up jumping because they are too scared to even protest the process of moving to the door and exiting? These same jumpers will land, and then proclaim that they had a great time and that they loved every minute of it. There's something about standing safely on terra-firma that tends to 'alter' their veiw of how it all went down.

Forget about the interview on the Today show, or anything else you heard about this jump. Let's say that the woman did fall out of the harness, so all you had to go by was the video. Does it appear that she is a willing participant at the time of exit?


DougH  (D License)

Oct 10, 2012, 6:36 AM
Post #225 of 230 (907 views)
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Re: [av8rdav] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The instructor didn't, in a way, force her out the door. Search for the Today Show video and you can hear from her the story. You are all judging the instructor without knowing the full story. Video does not always reveal everything that was going on at the time.

Another one of Dause's faithful followers? We know you love Bill and his cheap jump tickets at all costs.

It doesn't matter what she says on the Today Show, I am inclined to think that the drop-zone fed her a whole line of bullshit puppies and flowers. It doesn't even matter if she ACTUALLY wanted to jump.

1st and foremost her harness was not adjusted properly. Her willingness is irrelevant here. Here tandem instructor flushed her safety down the drain before they even boarded the plane.

2nd even if she wasn't refusing to go in the door, that exit was absolute shit. The instructor should have backed up and re-evaluated the exit. Instead he barreled over grandma, effectively stripping the poorly fitted harness off of her. If he put more effort on correcting the exit in the door, instead of rushing out, we probably never would have known what a shit job he did on the harness!


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Oct 10, 2012, 7:28 AM
Post #226 of 230 (805 views)
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Re: [av8rdav] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

She actually backed off that in later interviews.

The whole incident was a fatality narrowly avoided by PURE LUCK!

The Former T-I getting fined is a good START to fixing the issues seen in this video.

Matt


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Oct 10, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #227 of 230 (768 views)
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You know, an accident is one thing. We all know they happen. But blatant disregard like in this case? If she was a family member of mine he would have gotten more than a fine.


DougH  (D License)

Oct 10, 2012, 9:28 AM
Post #228 of 230 (751 views)
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In reply to:
She actually backed off that in later interviews.

The whole incident was a fatality narrowly avoided by PURE LUCK!

The Former T-I getting fined is a good START to fixing the issues seen in this video.

Matt

I probably already mentioned this months ago, but I think their lazy ass atitude is the only thing that kept her in the harness.

If they put their students in jump suits, and maybe they sometimes do, instead of her wearing the general issue senior citizen windbreaker jacket, she would have slipped the rest of the way out.

I think that jacket bunched up enough to keep the back strap behind her neck. With a jump suit it would there would have been a smooth path and whoops there goes grandma. CrazyShocked

Rather ironic.Pirate


airtwardo  (D License)

Oct 10, 2012, 10:55 AM
Post #229 of 230 (734 views)
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Re: [DougH] Tandem jump goes to sh*t... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
She actually backed off that in later interviews.

The whole incident was a fatality narrowly avoided by PURE LUCK!

The Former T-I getting fined is a good START to fixing the issues seen in this video.

Matt

I probably already mentioned this months ago, but I think their lazy ass atitude is the only thing that kept her in the harness.

If they put their students in jump suits, and maybe they sometimes do, instead of her wearing the general issue senior citizen windbreaker jacket, she would have slipped the rest of the way out.

I think that jacket bunched up enough to keep the back strap behind her neck. With a jump suit it would there would have been a smooth path and whoops there goes grandma. CrazyShocked

Rather ironic.Pirate

I remember thinking that too...as well as the fact her general over-all 'shape' and that she wasn't very flexible no doubt added to the good luck.

Few pounds lighter...Few more degrees of flexibility and the TI would've been landing solo & she'd of beat him to the LZ on her way to reaching room temperature.

Pulled ticket & a two grand $panking is a bargain, no matter what side of the fence ya look at it from!


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 10, 2012, 1:57 PM
Post #230 of 230 (691 views)
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In reply to:

Pulled ticket & a two grand $panking is a bargain, no matter what side of the fence ya look at it from!
I'm glad to see at least that punishment. We've all come across instructors with no regard for anyone but themselves. Maybe this threat of monetary punishment will finally motivate them to do the job correctly.



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