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Cutaway

 


climber71

May 6, 2012, 6:30 PM
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Cutaway Can't Post

Some background, did a Static Line Jump, last year, when going for the risers noticed the right did not come down like the left, noticed the line over. Released the brakes all the way, then pumped twice. Am a student, so should of cutaway sooner. But I wanted to fix the issue, looked at the altimeter, thought I had time, hindsight may of been some what hesitant. Repeated the third S/L today, got knocked on my back, the lines were twisted, the slider stuck. I cutaway on instinct this time. Even I have to repeat it, the hesitation to do a cutaway is gone, so in a way the jump had some positive aspects.


(This post was edited by climber71 on May 6, 2012, 6:38 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 7, 2012, 3:15 AM
Post #2 of 38 (5590 views)
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

I would suggest doing more work on knowing your EPs.
What you've written indicates that you really don't know how to handle EPs properly as yet.

Second, I'd suggest getting away from that idea of "time" when dealing with emergencies. Altitude is what counts. You said you looked at the alto, but then mentioned time.
Time is relative, altitude is not. You probably experienced time distortion.


climber71

May 7, 2012, 3:28 AM
Post #3 of 38 (5573 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks. Had some lines twists before and was able to correct them. On that jump things looked too messed up. Felt it was better to cut away. But will work on things.


climber71

May 12, 2012, 5:07 PM
Post #4 of 38 (5211 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Would like your opinion, was in a process of a Static Line program, I could not get the arch even though I felt I was doing it. Think maybe going to a DZ that has a AFF program, which really has more hands on training, would be a better course?


nigel99  (D 1)

May 12, 2012, 8:43 PM
Post #5 of 38 (5144 views)
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would like your opinion, was in a process of a Static Line program, I could not get the arch even though I felt I was doing it. Think maybe going to a DZ that has a AFF program, which really has more hands on training, would be a better course?

So did you cutaway the line over? Just curious.

Getting the arch on static line is difficult, simply because you've got a couple of seconds at the most to get it right. With static line you leave the door and you are under canopy almost instantly, so there isn't much time to get feedback and make corrections before the jump is over. AFF gives you a whole lot more time to focus on the arch. For what my opinion is worth if you can afford AFF and you are struggling with SL it is worth switching.


potatoman  (Student)

May 14, 2012, 4:23 AM
Post #6 of 38 (4981 views)
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Couple of things, and this is just opinion.

3rd static line since your first, being last year. That is a long time stretch.

Why do you jump with alti on S/L? Isn't there a 5sec rule in place. Check your canopy, if you cannot sort out the problem then chop? Maybe sit in on another S/L course.

I would raise 1 thing here. Speak, learn more about mals. You can get to quick into just pulling a reserve, but on the other hand, you can also be too slow. Read more, learn more, talk more, and above all, know your gear, so you know when something goes wrong.

Be safe.


dthames  (B 37674)

May 15, 2012, 10:22 AM
Post #7 of 38 (4813 views)
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would like your opinion, was in a process of a Static Line program, I could not get the arch even though I felt I was doing it. Think maybe going to a DZ that has a AFF program, which really has more hands on training, would be a better course?

There have been a lot of people learn on SL. The students and the instructors will make or break any program. I did some tethers SL jumps while working on AFF and they taught me a lot about exit form and getting into an arch quickly.

Being in poor form after only 3 jumps is not a sign something is wrong (my 2 cents).

Tighten up your butt musles really hard will help that initial arch.


(This post was edited by dthames on May 15, 2012, 10:23 AM)


faulk04  (D 32457)

May 15, 2012, 11:19 AM
Post #8 of 38 (4783 views)
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Re: [potatoman] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:



Why do you jump with alti on S/L? Isn't there a 5sec rule in place. Check your canopy, if you cannot sort out the problem then chop?

Why wouldn't you jump with altimeter?? Seems important to me at least. From my experiences as a student and watching other students go through the SL program most can't count. They have so much other stuff going through the head when you tell them to count to 5, they maybe count to 2 or you say 5 and they count to 10. You give them a hard deck and without an altimeter that would be extremely challenging to a student. Sure you go XX amount of feet per sec but do you think they would be calculating that?

Just my opinion though


(This post was edited by faulk04 on May 15, 2012, 11:23 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 15, 2012, 7:58 PM
Post #9 of 38 (4669 views)
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Re: [faulk04] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Why do you jump with alti on S/L? Isn't there a 5sec rule in place. Check your canopy, if you cannot sort out the problem then chop?

Why wouldn't you jump with altimeter?? Seems important to me at least. From my experiences as a student and watching other students go through the SL program most can't count. They have so much other stuff going through the head when you tell them to count to 5, they maybe count to 2 or you say 5 and they count to 10. You give them a hard deck and without an altimeter that would be extremely challenging to a student. Sure you go XX amount of feet per sec but do you think they would be calculating that?

Just my opinion though

Your opinion is good. Students suffer time distortion and telling them to count anything is not the way to go....ever.. Yet some schools still do things that way and it works...mostly.

But, in all fairness, Potatoman may be and old timer. Back in the day, it was not uncommon for S/L students to have no altimeter.. I learned at one of those places that didn't. They had me counting 5 seconds, then ten, then 15.

On all jumps I counted alright:

1......2.......3-4-5 Arrrrrrrgh!!!!!!!!!
LaughLaugh

oh...and the EPs were:
If anything goes wrong, do this (capewells).


(This post was edited by popsjumper on May 15, 2012, 8:00 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

May 15, 2012, 11:19 PM
Post #10 of 38 (4643 views)
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Re: [potatoman] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why do you jump with alti on S/L? Isn't there a 5sec rule in place.

Back in 1987 when I switched my student mains to squares, I gave all my students an alti. They didn't really use it on FF till they were doing 10 second delays or more. They still had to count on those early FF delays.

The altimeter was more for canopy control, so they knew where to be at certain altitudes to get their landing patterns established.

Plus when it was time to read the alti in FF they were well used to where it was and what it looked like.


potatoman  (Student)

May 16, 2012, 4:02 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Old timer...hehe
I find not giving the alti is good for these reasons, specially on 1st couple of jumps:
Less distraction from what to do.
Gets an "eye" view of what height they are

They normally count faster than what they should, so 5 sec becomes 3sec. So what, as long as they know they don't have 3 min to make a decision to chop.
Also, with the gear they are jumping, with a spiral or line twists, they do have more than 30sec odd to resolve the problem.

Your views are good though, and I cannot see a definitive better way, probably the instructors way that suits im best in this case.


faulk04  (D 32457)

May 16, 2012, 7:10 AM
Post #12 of 38 (4581 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Yet some schools still do things that way and it works...mostly.
But if they are a USPA DZ, the students have to wear an altimeter correct (and it can't be waived)?


I remember on my 1st 10 second delay they told me to count to 10, and I could do it fine on the ground...when I let go of the plane, I could have sworn i counted to 10, but they said I probably didn't even make it to 5 seconds before I pulled. I guess I got scared!!!


(This post was edited by faulk04 on May 16, 2012, 7:14 AM)


dthames  (B 37674)

May 16, 2012, 10:29 AM
Post #13 of 38 (4549 views)
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Quote:
But, in all fairness, Potatoman may be and old timer. Back in the day, it was not uncommon for S/L students to have no altimeter.. I learned at one of those places that didn't. They had me counting 5 seconds, then ten, then 15.

On all jumps I counted alright:

1......2.......3-4-5 Arrrrrrrgh!!!!!!!!!

I finished my 5 and 10 second SL freefalls just 2 and 3 weeks ago, and was counting for them. I may not be able to fall worth a hoot but I can count. I told the instructor, I count pretty slow so don't get worried. He had me count for him and he said, Okay. My instructions were, "Reach on 9, Pull on 10. This is where a lot of students go back to the tether, if you can't pull on time." On my first 10 second I was trying to figure out what my legs were doing and why I was wobbling around. For whatever reason on 8, I reached. Then though, too early...wait....pull. He said he saw fabic right on 10. Yea, I can count!

If you think about it, a student with 5 or 6 jumps may not have his wits yet in free fall. If you keep that student on a 5 second free fall until he/she can be stable AND count to 5 with some accuracy, then this method could be very useful to get the student to calm down and relax.


climber71

May 19, 2012, 7:40 AM
Post #14 of 38 (4370 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Nigel, yes cutaway the line over. Am switching from a static line course to a AFF. Taking a calmer, relax approach to learning skydiving this time. The S?l felt rushed.


climber71

May 19, 2012, 7:45 AM
Post #15 of 38 (4368 views)
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Re: [potatoman] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the advice potatoman, am taking a more relaed approach, what to learn, get comfortable with the equipment. The DZ uses the lti on every jump, to make sure become used to looking at it and for the flight pattern.


climber71

May 19, 2012, 7:47 AM
Post #16 of 38 (4366 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Popsjumper, am just starting out so your opinion and advice are helpful.


dthames  (B 37674)

May 19, 2012, 8:04 AM
Post #17 of 38 (4352 views)
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Nigel, yes cutaway the line over. Am switching from a static line course to a AFF. Taking a calmer, relax approach to learning skydiving this time. The S?l felt rushed.

If you want to jump, never give up!


climber71

May 19, 2012, 3:21 PM
Post #18 of 38 (4284 views)
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Re: [dthames] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Dthames, thanks did a tandem from 10,000 feet today, it went better, arched, watched the altimi pulled at 5500 feet. Am going to switch to the AFF program.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 20, 2012, 5:26 AM
Post #19 of 38 (4206 views)
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Dthames, thanks did a tandem from 10,000 feet today, it went better, arched, watched the altimi pulled at 5500 feet. Am going to switch to the AFF program.

Good luck and HAVE FUN!

Keep us posted on how it goes, eh?


climber71

May 20, 2012, 7:43 AM
Post #20 of 38 (4185 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Will do popsjumper. Relaxing, taking a clearer approach, with an understanding about safety. Think this AFF program will be better for me.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

May 21, 2012, 9:07 AM
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Once again, pay close attention during emergency procedures. When you have line twists, the slider will be "hung up" every time because the line twists block it from coming all the way down. Once you kick out of the line twists, the slider should come down normally, or maybe with a few pumps of the steering toggles.

For the type of canopies you jump as a student, line twists are not malfunctions.


climber71

Jul 21, 2012, 6:23 PM
Post #22 of 38 (3569 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

To Popsjumper and the others, switched over to an AFF program as some suggested. Another DZ was suggested, have gone there. Completed a successful Cat B AFF Skydive from 13,500 feet AGL on 07/21/2012. The videos help so I can make adjustments. Much more relaxed, more comfortable in my jumps. As always the jump would not of been successful with the Great Skydiving Instructors. Just a guy going for his A License, maybe someday can call myself a skydiver. Blue Skies


(This post was edited by climber71 on Jul 21, 2012, 6:25 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 21, 2012, 7:10 PM
Post #23 of 38 (3550 views)
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To Popsjumper and the others, switched over to an AFF program as some suggested. Another DZ was suggested, have gone there. Completed a successful Cat B AFF Skydive from 13,500 feet AGL on 07/21/2012. The videos help so I can make adjustments. Much more relaxed, more comfortable in my jumps. As always the jump would not of been successful with the Great Skydiving Instructors. Just a guy going for his A License, maybe someday can call myself a skydiver. Blue Skies

Congratulations. You are going to have fun when you get to do your hop and pop under AFF. All the other AFF students are going to freak about how low it is!


climber71

Jul 21, 2012, 11:59 PM
Post #24 of 38 (3526 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Nigel,
Have done some S/L jumps from 3,500 feet so will keep it in mind. Altitude awareness is key to everything.


climber71

Aug 5, 2012, 4:51 AM
Post #25 of 38 (3246 views)
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Had a bad weather day at the DZ no jumps, just practice for next though. Guess not everyday will be good for skydiving.


climber71

Oct 15, 2012, 7:32 PM
Post #26 of 38 (1052 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

John, Am on D1 now things are going great. Got some wind tunnel time, which helped. The Instructor said he noticed a marked improvement.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 15, 2012, 8:19 PM
Post #27 of 38 (1035 views)
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In reply to:
John, Am on D1 now things are going great. Got some wind tunnel time, which helped. The Instructor said he noticed a marked improvement.
Good to hear. Cool

Skydiving's a lot of fun when you get the hang of it. Smile


danielskydiver  (B License)

Nov 6, 2012, 7:46 AM
Post #28 of 38 (782 views)
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey man,

good to hear you did go on with the most awesome sport in the worldTongue
I have a little tip regarding your EP's; we teach students a decision altitude, 2.000ft. When they don't have a 'land-able' parachute at 2k, chop it. It's quite simple but it's a very useful tool to know whether or not you have time to deal with a mal.
Why 2.000ft? Because you have plenty of time to execute your ep's and land your reserve at a proper locationSmile

blue skies!


climber71

Nov 6, 2012, 4:23 PM
Post #29 of 38 (682 views)
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Re: [danielskydiver] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

danielskydiver, the DZ where I go uses the decision point on EP's at 2,500 feet AGL.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Nov 6, 2012, 4:45 PM
Post #30 of 38 (668 views)
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Go with what you were trained with. Don't take EP advice from someone with 150 jumps! 2000ft is a bit low to train students at. If a student waits till 2k and then decides to chop they're probably going to be cutaway low.


milehigheric  (C License)

Nov 6, 2012, 7:03 PM
Post #31 of 38 (640 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Who the hell is packing that student gear? I guess shit happens but 2 cutaways before even getting licensed seems crazy to me


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 6, 2012, 7:43 PM
Post #32 of 38 (626 views)
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
danielskydiver, the DZ where I go uses the decision point on EP's at 2,500 feet AGL.

Good stuff.

From the SIM 5-1 E,4:

You should decide upon and take the appropriate actions by a predetermined altitude:

a. Students and A-license holders: 2,500 feet.

b. B-D license holders: 1,800 feet.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 6, 2012, 7:51 PM
Post #33 of 38 (621 views)
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Re: [faulk04] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But if they are a USPA DZ, the students have to wear an altimeter correct (and it can't be waived)?

And you would be absolutely correct. From the SIM 2-1 k,2,C

2. All students are to be equipped with the following equipment until they have obtained a USPA A license:

a. a rigid helmet (except tandem students) [NW]

b. a piggyback harness and container system that includes a single-pointriser release and a reserve static line, except: [FB]

(1) A student who has been cleared for freefall self-supervision may jump without a reserve static line upon endorsement from his or her supervising instructor.

(2) Such endorsement may be for one jump or a series of jumps.

c. a visually accessible altimeter (except tandem students) [NW]

d. a functional automatic activation device that meets the manufacturer'srecommended service schedule [FB]

e. a ram-air main canopy suitable for student use [FB]

f. a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student's weight[FB]

g. for freefall, a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute [FB]


danielskydiver  (B License)

Nov 7, 2012, 11:09 AM
Post #34 of 38 (555 views)
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Re: [climber71] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
danielskydiver, the DZ where I go uses the decision point on EP's at 2,500 feet AGL.

Go with 2.5 indeed, follow what was teached you. I assumed they didn't teach an altitude at all, so that's why I mentioned 2k.

Quote:

Don't take EP advice from someone with 150 jumps! 2000ft is a bit low to train students at. If a student waits till 2k and then decides to chop they're probably going to be cutaway low.

Yeah I know I don't have tons of jumps and i'm certainly not a skygodTongue but it's just the way we teach the students to do. Whether it's high enough or not is a second discussion. But I agree, extra altitude is never a bad thing.


(This post was edited by danielskydiver on Nov 7, 2012, 11:13 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 7, 2012, 1:57 PM
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Re: [danielskydiver] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah I know I don't have tons of jumps and i'm certainly not a skygodTongue but it's just the way we teach the students to do. Whether it's high enough or not is a second discussion. But I agree, extra altitude is never a bad thing.

So you guys choose to disregard USPA recommendations for that? It just may happen that you will be explaining why you didn't follow industry standard training recommendations in front of judge/jury.

I just don't understand taking that 500ft cushion away from students.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Nov 7, 2012, 7:33 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

Danielskydiver didn't even fill in his location in his profile, which can be annoying, so I don't know where he's located.
But given that he wrote "2.000" rather than "2,000", it is a clue that maybe he isn't under USPA control...
Smile


(This post was edited by pchapman on Nov 7, 2012, 7:33 PM)


danielskydiver  (B License)

Nov 8, 2012, 1:59 AM
Post #37 of 38 (457 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But given that he wrote "2.000" rather than "2,000", it is a clue that maybe he isn't under USPA control...
Smile
Changed it in my profile to avoid miscommunucationSmile
Haha very sharp of you! Since i'm from the Netherlands, indeed we're not under USPA regulations, but the dutch equivalent.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 8, 2012, 6:09 PM
Post #38 of 38 (335 views)
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Re: [danielskydiver] Cutaway [In reply to] Can't Post

I done been had!

Set me up didn't you?
LaughLaughLaughTongue



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