Apr 29, 2012, 2:08 AM
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NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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I hate having to do this here, but I'm running out of options. A month ago, I bought a stock Icarus Saphire 2 canopy from NZ Aerosports. I paid for it and, on April 9, I got a FedEx delivery confirmation message saying it had been delivered at an address in Atlanta, US. I live in frickin' Spain!!!
First because they were at the Skydive Expo, then because one of them is on his honeymoon, then because another one of them is at a training camp for her 4-way team, a month later I have only received a couple of Facebook (WHAT???) messages saying they are sorry and will look into it. Of course, nothing is said about the €1,400 they already received.
Apr 29, 2012, 2:13 AM
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Re: [javiaven] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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If you paid for the canopy by creditcard, you may have some options there to file a claim with the cc company, you may even have insurance for goods paid for with your cc.
Apr 29, 2012, 2:18 AM
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Re: [javiaven] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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I hate having to do this here, but I'm running out of options. A month ago, I bought a stock Icarus Saphire 2 canopy from NZ Aerosports. I paid for it and, on April 9, I got a FedEx delivery confirmation message saying it had been delivered at an address in Atlanta, US. I live in frickin' Spain!!!
First because they were at the Skydive Expo, then because one of them is on his honeymoon, then because another one of them is at a training camp for her 4-way team, a month later I have only received a couple of Facebook (WHAT???) messages saying they are sorry and will look into it. Of course, nothing is said about the €1,400 they already received.
Any ideas, anyone?
Shannon IS on a training Camp in the US, (Eloy), Im sure when she returns she will get it sorted for you. (i know it doesn't help you right now). But there is truth in what they have told you. The Skydive Expo and training camp happen back to back. So some of them would understandably be out of service for a short while,.
ETA, i have no affiliation with NZ Aero. I just know that some of them are out of their country for a while.
(This post was edited by Squeak on Apr 29, 2012, 2:19 AM)
Apr 29, 2012, 2:29 AM
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Re: [Squeak] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Yeah, I do know they are away. But they should have known and, either NOT agreed to sell during this time, or fix the problem once it happened, regardless of any events. It's not like I spent $5...
Apr 29, 2012, 3:02 AM
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Re: [javiaven] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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I talked to NZA yesterday and only the canopy developer was in. Attila is on holiday and was married about a week ago, Shannon has been in the US for some time and will be returning very soon.
I am sure they will do everything they can to assist you once they get back.
Have you contacted FedEx to see if they can assist?
(This post was edited by rhystoo on Apr 29, 2012, 3:04 AM)
Apr 29, 2012, 3:13 AM
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Re: [rhystoo] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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I talked to NZA yesterday and only the canopy developer was in. Attila is on holiday and was married about a week ago, Shannon has been in the US for some time and will be returning very soon.
I am sure they will do everything they can to assist you once they get back.
Have you contacted the courier company to see if they can assist?
Yeah, again: I know Attila is getting married (that is why, when the automated email reply says to call him on his cell I'm really loath to doing it), and I know Shannon is at the camp. I know they had the Expo, and I understand all that. But the same way I don't have my patients asleep on my OR table if I have to go on vacation, but rather postpone the surgeries in such cases, if they knew they had such a busy and unproductive time ahead, then they should not have taken my money in the first place. No big issue!
I seriously hate doing this... I'm a friendly, patient, and reasonable guy, I swear. I've had nothing but great experiences since I started skydiving, and now I probably seem like an asshole for having this discussion in public. But this situation is not acceptable, by any means.
And of course, FedEx is not taking care of this, since they actually delivered the package, on time, to the (wrong) address they were given. I did speak to them and, though they actually were sorry this happened to me, they are not the ones to blame. They actually offered to pick up the package and take it to the correct address in Atlanta... Of course, when I told them the correct address was not even in the US, they said they couldn't do it. Understandable.
Apr 29, 2012, 4:25 AM
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Re: [javiaven] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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What I don't understand: Why didn't FedEx offer to pick up the parcel and charge you for delivery to Spain? You could then sort it out with NZA who surely would pay the shipping fees back to you.
I had an issue with shipments from Australia twice in the past. Both shipments were directed to the USA instead of Germany, but both were redirected to Germany when it was found out that they were labelled wrong. This shouldn't be a big deal for any major shipping company.
Apr 29, 2012, 5:15 AM
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Re: [Squeak] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Seems to me, if you have a business like this, you arrange to run it, or have someone run it, when you're away. If that's impossible, then suspend operations during your away-time so this kind of screw-up doesn't happen. It doesn't sound malicious; it's more a question of necessary diligence. Excuse modality doesn't negate that.
(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Apr 29, 2012, 5:17 AM)
Apr 29, 2012, 5:54 AM
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Re: [Andy9o8] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Quote:
Seems to me, if you have a business like this, you arrange to run it, or have someone run it, when you're away.
Away? I must have missed the part where one (or all) of them are in jail. What I did see is that one of them is at a 4-way camp in Eloy.
Last time I checked there was cell service and wi-fi up the yin-yang at Eloy. I'll go out on a limb and figure if your business can afford to go halfway around the world to the Skydive Expo, and you can afford to then do a 4-way camp in Eloy, you or your business can afford a laptop and/or a smart phone. There's no excuse for not taking a few min and making some calls/sending some emails and getting this cleared up.
Case in point, the last time I was in Z-hills I rented one of the trailers from Judy. Actually, I split it with a buddy, so when my phone started ringing at 6AM with work calls (like it does every day), I got my ass out of bed and spent an hour or two walking around the trailer park taking care of my business. Just becasue you're on vacation doesn't mean your business is too.
(This post was edited by davelepka on Apr 29, 2012, 6:00 AM)
Apr 29, 2012, 7:16 AM
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Re: [normiss] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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So you're saying this is a FedEx issue,
The OP was saying - not in the very first post of the thread - that FedEx was supposedly given the wrong address, and delivered to what they were given. Hence the claim that it is a NZA issue.
Apr 29, 2012, 7:33 AM
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Re: [normiss] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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So given their line of business...what are the odds the address delivered to is someone in the industry?
Pretty good, I'd think, but unless someone from NZA gets on the horn and makes some calls, I doubt anything will come of it.
Think about it, let's say you got a canopy in the mail that you didn't order. Then you get a call from a guy in Spain claiming that the manufacturer sent it to the wrong address, and that it's really his canopy. If it was me, I'd be surprised the guy calling wasn't from Nigeria, because it sounds like some sort of scam.
Now if the manufacturer called, and explained the problem, I'd be happy to help them out and correct the error, but again, it all comes down to someone from the company doing their job.
Apr 29, 2012, 7:37 AM
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Re: [normiss] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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what are the odds the address delivered to is someone in the industry?
Certainly possible! Perhaps someone copied the address off the adjacent row of a sales database or spreadsheet...
The OP should try to find out who does live at the address the canopy was sent. And someone at NZA needs to have access to their database even on the road to figure out what happened.
Apr 29, 2012, 7:53 AM
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Re: [davelepka] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Pretty good, I'd think, but unless someone from NZA gets on the horn and makes some calls, I doubt anything will come of it.
In Germany, you as the addressee are not entitled to have anything that was delivered to a wrong address to be sent to you. The only one who can do this is the (original) sender. Though this is a nuisance for the person who want to get hold of their (paid) goods it is sort of sensible to prevent Mr attorney on behalf of the late Mr NigeriaScam from fiddling with deliveries. So, long way put short: Only NZA can get it fixed and I also can't really understand why this isn't possible in the modern days of smartphones and WiFi-able laptops...
Apr 29, 2012, 8:28 AM
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Re: [Abedy] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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I also can't really understand why this isn't possible in the modern days of smartphones and WiFi-able laptops...
I would say the same thing, if this was over the course of a weekend or so, but according to the OP this issue has been going on long enough that the first excuse was that everyone was at the Skydive Expo in Deland, which ended April 8th, about three weeks ago.
All jokes aside, in that time they could have found a hard wired desk top, a land line, or they could have even mailed a letter to the recipient in Atlanta and it would have gotten there by now.
Apr 29, 2012, 8:35 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Don´t NZA have a factory in Spain....somewhere north of Barcelona?. I`m sure I heard that somewhere....
No. It's another company. They sell the same canopies with the same specs, also under the name of Icarus, but are otherwise no longer affiliated. it seems to be an unusual but amiable agreement between former partners.
Apr 29, 2012, 9:39 AM
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Don´t NZA have a factory in Spain
That would be Icarus, who are unfortunately not the same company as NZA, although they manufacture a lot of the same canopy designs under license (plus at least one more).
I know a few people who prefer to buy their Icarus-ish canopies from NZ Aero rather than Icarus Spain, for one reason and another. Obviously this has gotten expensive lately, but it's still common!
Apr 29, 2012, 10:38 AM
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Re: [javiaven] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Sorry to hear about your bad luck. It should have taken 5 minutes to fix. All they needed/need to do is request fed-ex to pick up the package and re-deliver it to the correct address. They would have spent more time figuring out to just say "agent" over and over to by pass the automation and get to a human then it would have taken to fix I.
Apr 29, 2012, 11:29 AM
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Re: [pchapman] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Hi Peter,
Quote:
The OP should try to find out who does live at the address the canopy was sent.
I could not disagree more. It is NOT the responsibility of the OP.
This is the ongoing problem everywhere. The people who made the mistake want to put the responsibility/problem onto the customer. What a great business plan.
I sold my very first piece of parachute equipment back in 1965 & have been selling off/on ever since.
The thing that works and that people can live with is communication. If it is going to be late: Let the customer know. If there is a color no longer available: Let the customer know.
Some of my dealers think I am nuts with all of my emails about every little detail; but it prevents mistakes ( mostly ), and saves both of us time & money ( hopefully ).
Apr 29, 2012, 1:00 PM
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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It is NOT the responsibility of the OP.
I'll agree with you there. But with the blinding speed with which the company has taken care of the problem -- it now being 20 days since the misdelivery -- one does start to wonder about trying to find out who might actually have the canopy in their possession now...
Apr 29, 2012, 1:59 PM
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Re: [javiaven] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Sounds like a very Mickey Mouse company. "Sorry we're all away right now, we'll get back to you when we have finished having our jollies around the world".
Can you imagine PD or L&B or Sunpath behaving like this? I don't think so.
Apr 29, 2012, 3:20 PM
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Hi Peter,
Quote:
The OP should try to find out who does live at the address the canopy was sent.
I could not disagree more. It is NOT the responsibility of the OP.
This is the ongoing problem everywhere. The people who made the mistake want to put the responsibility/problem onto the customer. What a great business plan.
I sold my very first piece of parachute equipment back in 1965 & have been selling off/on ever since.
The thing that works and that people can live with is communication. If it is going to be late: Let the customer know. If there is a color no longer available: Let the customer know.
Some of my dealers think I am nuts with all of my emails about every little detail; but it prevents mistakes ( mostly ), and saves both of us time & money ( hopefully ).
Communicate - communicate - communicate.
Just my $0.02, for what it is worth.
JerryBaumchen
Thanks Jerry, precisely. Had I known they would not be available, I wouldn't have minded waiting. Hell, I still have my own canopy, I don't mind waiting for another month. And once all this happened, I actually did not get mad at them: I understand these things may happen. The one thing that just bothers me to no end has been the absolute lack of information.
After having posted this here today, and on my Facebook, their Facebook, Twitter, and more emails, I did get an email from the girl at Eloy saying she is very sorry BUT she is at her 4-way camp, so I should call the factory in New Zealand to figure out what is going on, since they are now underhanded (bear with me: in order to reach them during NZ working hours, I have to call at 3am local time). And, of course, the international call is on me!
Again, I feel like shit for posting this here, and I'm sure they are awesome people once you get to know them. But I definitely won't be doing any more business with them.
Apr 29, 2012, 7:32 PM
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Re: [javiaven] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Don't feel sorry. As someone that ships hundreds of packages a month I can assure you it takes 1 phone call to fix soemthing like this but it should have happened immediatly. I am surprised the people that received your package haven't sent it back to fed-ex. Usually if an address is in your system it is a previous customer.
Apr 30, 2012, 2:21 AM
Post #28 of 52
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Re: [javiaven] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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I should call the factory in New Zealand to figure out what is going on, since they are now underhanded (bear with me: in order to reach them during NZ working hours, I have to call at 3am local time). And, of course, the international call is on me!
No question you have received shit service, but complaining because its an international call and in a different time zone - really??? Where was NZA located when you decided to give them the business? Also you don't have to ring at 3am? Usually either the end of your day or first thing in the morning will work with business hours in New Zealand.
Hopefully someone from NZA will sort this out for you soon. The people from NZA are all great people, apparently they are just poorly organised and crap at business !!
Apr 30, 2012, 4:30 PM
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Re: [Joellercoaster] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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That would be Icarus, who are unfortunately not the same company as NZA, although they manufacture a lot of the same canopy designs under license (plus at least one more).
Not exactly True!
Paul Martin, AKA Jyro, started NZ Aerosports in NZ.
Jyro developed some pretty good canopies and later wanted to market them worldwide by using exsisting factories to manufacture them.
"Icarus" was/is the design's brand name and was/is manufactured by NZ Aeosports in NZ, Precision in the USA, and CIMSA in Spain.
Precision later fell out of producing the Icarus brand and started producing a somewhat similar line of canopies like the Kaos, etc....
If you buy a Icarus canopy (with the exception of the Neos), you are buying a Paul Martin designed canopy. The only difference is just where it was manufactured!
The Neos was developed by CIMSA (which just happens to be the largest parachute manufacturer in the world...mostly military though) and was labeled under the Icarus name.
Rumor has it, that by doing so, it caused some friction amongst the ranks that was later resolved.
Apr 30, 2012, 6:53 PM
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Re: [masterrigger1] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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I used to be an Icarus (NZ) fanatic. Loved the JVX. However, I switched to PD simply because the customer service at NZ Aerosports is horrible. Sucks because the JVX suits me better than the Velo. But the customer service aspect is a pretty big deal.
Apr 30, 2012, 9:08 PM
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Re: [EppyNephrine] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Interesting. Now we have a second person saying the customer service sucks. The skydiving community is extremely small. Businesses cannot afford to get a bad rep.
Apr 30, 2012, 9:16 PM
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Re: [airdvr] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Interesting. Now we have a second person saying the customer service sucks. The skydiving community is extremely small. Businesses cannot afford to get a bad rep.
May 1, 2012, 1:49 AM
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Not exactly True!
Thanks for the correction... I was on the right track but not precisely there
In reply to:
If you buy a Icarus canopy (with the exception of the Neos), you are buying a Paul Martin designed canopy. The only difference is just where it was manufactured!
And the difference in manufacturing locations is enough for some people to want to buy the Kiwi versions, even though they cost more.
Included in this list is a guy I know with a Crossfire in each of his rigs, one from each factory, both bought new, and he seems pretty vocal about his preference.
(Obviously this is second-hand, I'm not an Icarus owner, though I am very likely to be at some point. They're great canopies.)
May 1, 2012, 7:27 AM
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Interesting. Now we have a second person saying the customer service sucks. The skydiving community is extremely small. Businesses cannot afford to get a bad rep.
The OP has not had good service that is clear from what they relate.
I am on my 7th and 8th canopies from NZ Aerosports and their customer service in relation to me has been nothing less than exemplary.
May 1, 2012, 8:38 AM
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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In reply to:
Quote:
The OP should try to find out who does live at the address the canopy was sent.
I could not disagree more. It is NOT the responsibility of the OP.
This is the ongoing problem everywhere. The people who made the mistake want to put the responsibility/problem onto the customer. What a great business plan.
+10000
Unbelievable. Even if what the OP has said isn't accurate -- which I have no reason to suspect is the case -- then "sorry, we're off playing so we can't help you" is the worst excuse I've ever heard for not helping a customer.
In any case, I'm not sure how things work in Europe but in the USA protecting customers from these types of biz practices is one of the key services the credit card companies provide. I had a similar problem to this once from a furniture manufacturer. As I had paid for the items with my American Express card I called up Amex and they credited my account on the spot. Amex then refused to pay the vendor until I was satisfied with the result.
This is a good reason to always use a credit card -- not a debit card -- for on-line or remote purchases.
May 1, 2012, 8:20 PM
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Hi Peter,
Quote:
The OP should try to find out who does live at the address the canopy was sent.
I could not disagree more. It is NOT the responsibility of the OP.
This is the ongoing problem everywhere. The people who made the mistake want to put the responsibility/problem onto the customer. What a great business plan.
I sold my very first piece of parachute equipment back in 1965 & have been selling off/on ever since.
The thing that works and that people can live with is communication. If it is going to be late: Let the customer know. If there is a color no longer available: Let the customer know.
Some of my dealers think I am nuts with all of my emails about every little detail; but it prevents mistakes ( mostly ), and saves both of us time & money ( hopefully ).
Communicate - communicate - communicate.
Just my $0.02, for what it is worth.
JerryBaumchen
Jerry nailed it in regards to customer service and communication.
You can buy skydiving stuff from hundreds of sources but your best bet is to stick with those that have a proven track record of good customer service. I'm a faithful customer of places like Rigging Innovations, PD, Square1 and Chuting Star because they deliver, stay in touch and care about the customer.
"I'm on vacation but will get back with you in a few weeks" is not a satisfactory response in today's business environment, especially given the widespread availability of high-speed internet,cellular comms, etc....
May 2, 2012, 12:57 AM
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Re: [masterrigger1] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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If you buy a Icarus canopy (with the exception of the Neos), you are buying a Paul Martin designed canopy. The only difference is just where it was manufactured!
May 2, 2012, 6:26 AM
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Re: [javiaven] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Any progress?
DSE (D 29060)
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May 2, 2012, 7:46 AM
Post #41 of 52
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Isn't Icarus Reserve also designed by CIMSA?
Not Really.
It is basically an exact copy of a PD reserve with the exception of the stabilizers the much needed, coated 725lb Spectra line.
It is BTW, only manufactured at the CIMSA plant as they already had a QA program in place there.
MEL
Hey MEL, you raised my eyebrow with this one. Both in private conversation and at PIA, it seems most everyone feels that coated Spectra is much more prone to tension knots and that's why (PD, for example) builds reserves with uncoated microline. Is there some data or information that would support the 'much needed coating' preference?
Second, are you suggesting that NZAerosports doesn't have a QC/QA program? I don't jump their canopies, but I have spent quite a bit of time in their booths at PIA and other events interviewing them, and it seems they've got a very solid process.
May 3, 2012, 12:25 AM
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Re: [DSE] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Second, are you suggesting that NZAerosports doesn't have a QC/QA program?
A friend got a JVX where they had forgot to cut the crossports on one chamber, so some things are lacking in their QA program if they have one. It made the openings a bit more interesting.
May 3, 2012, 12:51 AM
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Re: [bofh] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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A friend got a JVX where they had forgot to cut the crossports on one chamber, so some things are lacking in their QA program if they have one. It made the openings a bit more interesting.
have seen gear from major manufacturers with holes+grommets missing (which makes the closing of the reserve tray interesting), inverted legstrap hardware (which would have made interesting openings too) etc etc etc... Has the JVX been inspected by the user/the person who put the canopy in service prior to use ?
May 3, 2012, 3:31 AM
Post #44 of 52
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In reply to:
Second, are you suggesting that NZAerosports doesn't have a QC/QA program?
A friend got a JVX where they had forgot to cut the crossports on one chamber, so some things are lacking in their QA program if they have one. It made the openings a bit more interesting.
Sounds like it wasn't inspected properly when it was received. All manufacturers make occasional mistakes. It pays to inspect before jumping.
May 3, 2012, 4:47 AM
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Re: [DaVinciflies] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Sounds like a very Mickey Mouse company. "Sorry we're all away right now, we'll get back to you when we have finished having our jollies around the world".
Can you imagine PD or L&B or Sunpath behaving like this? I don't think so.
I love Icarus canopies had a few myself for a while, but this is why I switch to PD anothe long while ago, now just try to get any of their canopies re-lined! I waited 6 months at one point a few years back. They got to get their shit together because they have an awesome product in my opinion
May 3, 2012, 6:13 AM
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Re: [normiss] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Any updates?????
Yes, in fact. They gave me sincere apologies, have tracked down and are express sending me the canopy, and are offering any compensation needed.
I get lots of input from many friends saying they had great experience with them, so I hope this doesn't happen again, as I'm sure it's just been a lot of little problems building upon each other.
May 3, 2012, 6:29 AM
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Thanks for giving them an honest chance, I knew Jyro would come through if he could. Good products, good people. Stupid humans make mistakes, glad they set it right.
Hey MEL, you raised my eyebrow with this one. Both in private conversation and at PIA, it seems most everyone feels that coated Spectra is much more prone to tension knots and that's why (PD, for example) builds reserves with uncoated microline. Is there some data or information that would support the 'much needed coating' preference?
DSE,
Well the data that you need can be found by asking any rigger who packs reserves with uncoated lines.
The first thing will be that the uncoated line material is very prone to damage. It is hard to find a canopy that has been packed and used a few times that does not have frayed,fuzzy, velcro picked lines on it.
Look at a canopy from the next reserve ride you see that has that type of material on it.
Line replacements are common if the rigger is really doing his/her job of inspecting the lines.
Second , the theory of uncoated tension knots is actually the other way around. Any rigger will tell you that coated lines will stow neater and cleaner than uncoated ones.
So, neater,cleaner line stows should lead to better line deployments as most people would probably think.
Also think through the process of uncoated lines getting hooked on the velcro during deployment. If just a couple are hung on the velcro and the rest are free to release! ...Well you can see the potential problem there.
The one problem with coated lines is that many years ago , an AD was issued because the lines were stiff and hard after they had been packed for a while. We had to wash the lines on the canopy and then place the canopy back in service.
The lines we use today have a synthetic coating that has not seen any issues with to date.
Of note, just about 95% of all reserve manufacturers use the coated version today
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Second, are you suggesting that NZAerosports doesn't have a QC/QA program? I don't jump their canopies, but I have spent quite a bit of time in their booths at PIA and other events interviewing them, and it seems they've got a very solid process.
Negative! I was merely stating that they do not have an FAA or EU certified QA/QC program as of yet.
They do in fact have an in-house QA program, just not one for certified, TSO canopies.
May 3, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #50 of 52
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Re: [Skybear] NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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What I don't understand: Why didn't FedEx offer to pick up the parcel and charge you for delivery to Spain?
Unless the SHIPPER requests something like that... It is not going to happen. Imagine this: I knew you were getting a new canopy, so I called claiming to be you and asked it to be shipped instead to the vacant house down the street from me.
If FedEx did that, then they would be responsible for the loss.... And that is not even taking the shipment out of the Country which requires a lot of customs paperwork (CI, SED if over 2.5k... etc).
May 9, 2012, 10:41 PM
Post #51 of 52
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NZ Aerosports lost my canopy, doesn't care about it
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Glad to hear it was sorted. My experiences with NZA have been brilliant. They have Skype so can call internationally for virtually $0. They are a small company so get pretty stretched when it comes PIA, conference, competition time. They make great canopies and have done truck loads to support skydiving in Australia. FUCK YEAH
