Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Question on Most AFF Students

 

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dirtbox  (D 31759)

May 3, 2012, 5:24 PM
Post #26 of 46 (1124 views)
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Re: [jers119] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd say so. People have been getting their A a lot longer than tunnels have been around, it isn't needed and it takes away a lot of the experience [not to say it doesn't have benifits, i just don't think they outweigh the con's]. You probably will fail a stage or two so budget for that [I failed on stage like 4 or 5 times I think Angelic].

Flipside, the other guy I work with the most who is far more experienced than I and is a tunnel coach, would tell you to go to tunnel, so read a bit more and make a decision for yourself, a lot of skydiving is like that... Better yet, talk to the instructors at YOUR dz [or the one you plan to learn at]. You'll get to know them and they will give better information than you get on here.

Worth what you paid for it.


Austintxflight

May 3, 2012, 5:30 PM
Post #27 of 46 (1121 views)
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Re: [jers119] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

If you want to be cost effective then spending a little time in the tunnel will help. It can as has been said remove some of the learning to skydive by skydiving as was said before, but if you get used to flying your body, you might actually get to look around on your jumps and enjoy them because you are not 100% focused on body-flight.

I am a proponent of using the tunnel, you are less likely to fail levels on AFF which makes you happier because you are progressing, and saves money.

Go do AFF level 1 then hit the tunnel for a few minutes before doing level 2, then you can get that first jump experience then you get the enhanced learning from the tunnel.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 3, 2012, 5:55 PM
Post #28 of 46 (1116 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am a proponent of using the tunnel, you are less likely to fail levels on AFF which makes you happier because you are progressing, and saves money.
Hmmmmm...as we all know, going to the tunnel does NOT guarantee success in AFF. Even "less likely" does not apply as you used it. It's a mistake to assume so.

Assuming that one will fail levels? No good.

Saving money? How many tunnel minutes should one need to do to "save money" on AFF?
Zero.

Just out of curiosity since you are using the pass/fail terminology....why make a negative when you could have made a positive?

"You are more likely to pass levels...."


TO the OP:
Be forewarned that some DZs will tell you to repeat jumps as a means of generating more revenue.

No, I am NOT saying the DZ you attend is one that does that. I don't know if they do or don't.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on May 3, 2012, 5:56 PM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

May 3, 2012, 5:59 PM
Post #29 of 46 (1111 views)
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Re: [dirtbox] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
hogwash! Disclaimer, anyone who knows me knows I am anti tunnel for AFF students.
It's not hogwash, it's horses for courses.
Give people as much introductory information as possible and let THEM make an informed choice.
Just because you did it a particular way does in no way mean it's the "right" way for anyone else.

BTW, did straight AFF, no tandem no tunnel.


dirtbox  (D 31759)

May 3, 2012, 6:20 PM
Post #30 of 46 (1106 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

Eh read the rest of what I wrote... I just don't lime that it is becoming almost a norma and getting rammed down students throats that they have to do tunnel (some DZs here in Canada madate you do 20minutes, no ifs of buts). The rest of what I wrote suggested a student educate themselves and make a decision for themselves while also discussing with instructors at the DZ the plan to learn at.


jers119  (A 65105)

May 3, 2012, 7:01 PM
Post #31 of 46 (1095 views)
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Re: [dirtbox] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a lot of information so fast! Yes, I have been teeter-tottering on tunnel time before AFF and/or a tandem but my honest gut feeling has been still sitting there in the depths of my gut so to speak. Which is, like my motorcycle and motocross racing and all the other "sports" that I've participated in, I just went out and did it. I was really wanting to see what most AFF students/skydivers did before they got into the sport. And which ever way they started I was hoping to see why they thought it was a good or bad way of starting their skydiving career. I see value in tandem, tunnel and straight AFF, along with static. I think for me though, I'd like to just through myself out there, see what it's like, re-evaluate and go from there? I'll update this thread once I make my first jump so we can all get a good laugh!


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 3, 2012, 7:29 PM
Post #32 of 46 (1093 views)
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Re: [dirtbox] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
(some DZs here in Canada madate you do 20minutes, no ifs of buts).

Of course some such DZO's are also co-owners of the tunnel they send students to, both serving the same metropolitan area. Very convenient both in practical terms and financially.....

(That being said, the ones I'm thinking of are extremely professional and have a well designed program.)


(This post was edited by pchapman on May 3, 2012, 7:30 PM)


Austintxflight

May 3, 2012, 8:20 PM
Post #33 of 46 (1083 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I am a proponent of using the tunnel, you are less likely to fail levels on AFF which makes you happier because you are progressing, and saves money.
Hmmmmm...as we all know, going to the tunnel does NOT guarantee success in AFF. Even "less likely" does not apply as you used it. It's a mistake to assume so.

Assuming that one will fail levels? No good.

Saving money? How many tunnel minutes should one need to do to "save money" on AFF?
Zero.

Just out of curiosity since you are using the pass/fail terminology....why make a negative when you could have made a positive?

"You are more likely to pass levels...."


TO the OP:
Be forewarned that some DZs will tell you to repeat jumps as a means of generating more revenue.

No, I am NOT saying the DZ you attend is one that does that. I don't know if they do or don't.

True I could have changed my words to not implicate a guarantee of passing AFF levels. I meant to say that the chances of success go up with more practice time and tunnel is a type of practice. Also that there is not that much downside to early tunnel time other than the cost. Most people who are skydivers did not learn in a tunnel so there is nothing wrong with that either.


nigel99  (D 1)

May 4, 2012, 3:33 AM
Post #34 of 46 (1068 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

Yip, 1 'failed' AFF level, is still much more fun than 5 minutes in the tunnel.

If you are going to do tunnel, then it needs to be a fair amount to be beneficial, not just a couple of minutes. It still doesn't teach you canopy flight either.

To the OP, my wife had quite a bit of tunnel time (was starting to freefly in the tunnel), but she still repeated an AFF level.

If you're skydiving for fun, is go with jumps over alternative training. So what if you don't progress at the fastest possible rate.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 4, 2012, 6:43 AM
Post #35 of 46 (1058 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight, et al] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
True I could have changed my words to not implicate a guarantee of passing AFF levels. I meant to say that the chances of success go up with more practice time and tunnel is a type of practice. Also that there is not that much downside to early tunnel time other than the cost. Most people who are skydivers did not learn in a tunnel so there is nothing wrong with that either.

Well, don't get me wrong. Tunnel can be a great training tool if used properly.

There were no tunnels when I did training but I did some time in one long after and just 8 years ago.

My beef with the recommendations about tunnel, and most of the proponents in this thread, is that tunnel helps with just one thing....freefall. What a student learns in the tunnel is learned in the air just as easily as history has shown us already.

But the big thing, IMO, is the idea of tunnel helping with passing AFF levels. Freefall body position? Yes. However, rock solid body position in freefall is not going to get you through AFF. Students are still going to worry about it in the air regardless of tunnel and they have so much more to accomplish than just freefall to advance through training.

If you are only focused on just freefall training, then yes pre-AFF tunnel could be beneficial. But again, it's not a guarantee of any sort.

Tunnel and air are two completely different environments. In my experience, that "deer in the headlights" shock is just as common for pre-AFF tunnel time as it is for "jump right in" AFFers.
(please excuse the play on words.)


Can new jumpers benefit from pre-AFF tunnel time? Yes, many do, many don't. From a purely financial standpoint, my opinion is, use tunnel time to hone flying skills after you learn the basics in the air.

Freefall is just a small part of skydiving teaching and learning. I know somebody is going to argue the word "small" and so be it. I tend to focus on more important things....deploying a parachute and handling EPs for a couple of examples.


The best post was Squeak's where he said put out the info and let the student decide for himself. That's pretty good stuff.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 4, 2012, 6:48 AM
Post #36 of 46 (1056 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

Talking about irony!
LaughLaugh

I'm sitting here this morning waiting for a first jump course student to show up (should have been here at 9am).

Just as I hit the send button on the previous post, she walks in and lo' and behold she has 29 minutes split between Denver and Paraclete.
LaughLaughLaugh


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 4, 2012, 7:18 AM
Post #37 of 46 (1047 views)
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Re: [jers119] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

So there is the option of just doing AFF, or doing 10-20 minutes of tunnel first.

Another thing I've seen people do is to go to the tunnel after they have done some AFF, if they are having freefall issues that aren't getting solved in a couple jumps. If they are getting stuck, and only providing amusing scenes for the AFFI's year end video, then plan for the 6 hour drive (around here) to the tunnel.

Life is like that: you can save money by not spending extra, or spend extra up front to possibly avoid spending even more extra later, or only spend extra when it becomes apparent that one is already starting to spend extra... There's no one ideal method.


lookoutbelow  (A 63826)

May 4, 2012, 7:26 AM
Post #38 of 46 (1045 views)
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Re: [jers119] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

I did 10 minutes in the tunnel after my third AFF level. Not so much because I felt I had to have it. It was just a little insurance towards passing level 4. Knowing for a fact I could start and stop my own turns with good control before having to do it for real was nice. I probably would have been fine without it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 4, 2012, 3:51 PM
Post #39 of 46 (1016 views)
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Re: [lookoutbelow] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I did 10 minutes in the tunnel after my third AFF level.
THAT is good stuff!


jers119  (A 65105)

May 4, 2012, 4:36 PM
Post #40 of 46 (1005 views)
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Re: [jers119] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

Update- moved my AFF level 1 school up to May 12 but hoping to be be able to start tomorrow! Fund a new place here in Colorado, Out of the Blue Skydiving! The owner seems way awesome and I feel more comfortable going there. Though, nothing wrong with Mile-Hi I'm sure as John had NOTHING negative to say about Mile-Hi either. Totally cool, thanks John!! Looking forward to meeting you soon!


jers119  (A 65105)

May 5, 2012, 7:31 PM
Post #41 of 46 (976 views)
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Re: [jers119] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

I just completed AFF level 1! Passed as everyone does, but wow, what a experience! Thanks to Out of Blue Skydiving here in Colorado for teaching me everything I need to the awesome atmosphere for a first time jumper! I so can't wait until my level 2 class and jump at Out of the Blue! I'm hooked!!!!!!


Austintxflight

May 6, 2012, 6:27 AM
Post #42 of 46 (954 views)
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Re: [jers119] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

Congratulations, welcome to your new addiction. We're all addicts here.


devildog  (C 40302)

May 6, 2012, 7:59 AM
Post #43 of 46 (946 views)
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Re: [jers119] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

Congrats :)


climber71

Aug 5, 2012, 6:14 AM
Post #44 of 46 (789 views)
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Re: [jers119] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

Did my first Tandem back in 1990, was in the process of getting my A license back then, but other things took over. Kept doing tandems over the years, got tired of the. Knew I could get my A license and jump by myself. Started the process over. So doing tandems does help.


sodiumazide  (Student)

Aug 16, 2012, 12:08 PM
Post #45 of 46 (651 views)
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Re: [climber71] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

My experience:

I did 7.5 minutes tunnel time after my first two AFF jumps. I feel that it helped me immensely. I improved my body position and felt way more confident on my subsequent jumps.

I don't feel that it took away the experience of the rest of my AFF jumps. In fact, I felt more aware and in control and was able to focus on building a solid foundation in freefall. Of course I still had to learn canopy flight skills and all safety procedures.

I would personally advocate for tunnel time.


(This post was edited by sodiumazide on Aug 16, 2012, 12:24 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Aug 16, 2012, 2:10 PM
Post #46 of 46 (622 views)
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Re: [sodiumazide] Question on Most AFF Students [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My experience:

I did 7.5 minutes tunnel time after my first two AFF jumps. I feel that it helped me immensely. I improved my body position and felt way more confident on my subsequent jumps.

I don't feel that it took away the experience of the rest of my AFF jumps. In fact, I felt more aware and in control and was able to focus on building a solid foundation in freefall. Of course I still had to learn canopy flight skills and all safety procedures.

I would personally advocate for tunnel time.

Did you not learn those things before your first jump???.


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