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1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier?

 

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Ron

May 3, 2012, 8:27 PM
Post #101 of 171 (931 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Gee, I was wondering when you were going to ask me that. Of course I don't. You think I'm going to give up thousands of dollars that I sweat my ass off for all summer just to call your bluff? How stupid do you think I am? Or were you wondering if I would just lie about it and not give up the money? That's not how I roll. I don't say things that I believe to be untrue. Not even on the internet to prove a point. That'd be a shit ass deal. I'm sure you wouldn't make much more than a few hundred off it in a summer. I know it's just principal to you and the money doesn't matter. I will give you that much respect.

Tell ya what... I'll make this deal. I'll STILL donate my 'fat tax' income ALL YEAR with the condition that you match it.

Or, I'll donate my 'fat tax' income and all you have to do is admit that it is impossible to truly know what something requires without having done it.

Basically admit you were wrong.


theonlyski  (D License)

May 3, 2012, 8:27 PM
Post #102 of 171 (931 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well as I said in an ideal world I wish newbies (myself, etc) would be allowed to rent / purchase gear, go to a DZ, sign whatever liability waivers, watch a comprehensive and interactive video course on skydiving and then let go at it.

Most people would kill themselves in that situation. Even AFF students forget to pull their parachute, and they've had quite a bit of training and practice doing so.


diablopilot  (D License)

May 3, 2012, 8:37 PM
Post #103 of 171 (927 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Gee, I was wondering when you were going to ask me that. Of course I don't. You think I'm going to give up thousands of dollars that I sweat my ass off for all summer just to call your bluff? How stupid do you think I am? Or were you wondering if I would just lie about it and not give up the money? That's not how I roll. I don't say things that I believe to be untrue. Not even on the internet to prove a point. That'd be a shit ass deal. I'm sure you wouldn't make much more than a few hundred off it in a summer. I know it's just principal to you and the money doesn't matter. I will give you that much respect.

And the "noise to signal" ratio just went through the roof.


The_Don  (B License)

May 3, 2012, 8:39 PM
Post #104 of 171 (926 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

^ This!


theonlyski  (D License)

May 3, 2012, 8:46 PM
Post #105 of 171 (924 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Gee, I was wondering when you were going to ask me that. Of course I don't. You think I'm going to give up thousands of dollars that I sweat my ass off for all summer just to call your bluff? How stupid do you think I am? Or were you wondering if I would just lie about it and not give up the money? That's not how I roll. I don't say things that I believe to be untrue. Not even on the internet to prove a point. That'd be a shit ass deal. I'm sure you wouldn't make much more than a few hundred off it in a summer. I know it's just principal to you and the money doesn't matter. I will give you that much respect.

And the "noise to signal" ratio just went through the roof.

Yeah, the Eb/N0 on this thread has been hovering around 5.

Back to the basics: the OP hurt his ankle on landing, shit happens, sorry bout your luck. If you try to pick up the sport, you'll either learn fast how to land safely or hurt yourself. Tandem landings are different than solo landings.

Don't dwell on the past, thinking 'what if'. If you want to pursue it, get healed up, talk to the DZ and get started. If you don't, that's perfectly acceptable.


BobMoore  (D 13136)

May 3, 2012, 9:51 PM
Post #106 of 171 (913 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well as I said in an ideal world I wish newbies (myself, etc) would be allowed to rent / purchase gear, go to a DZ, sign whatever liability waivers, watch a comprehensive and interactive video course on skydiving and then let go at it.

Oh, if it were only that simple. I would go tomorrow and rent one of those Formula 1 or Indy race cars and burn some rubber. It doesn't look too hard. I watch those guys do it every Sunday afternoon on TV. Oh, no! I know what I want to do! I want to get into one of those hotshot airplane Reno pylon racers. It can't be too difficult, you just jerk that stick back and forth to turn left and right. Piece of cake. Why do they make it so damned hard for me to just have a little bit of fun? It's a conspiracy, I'm sure. I mean, I could just watch a comprehensive and interactive video course and learn all I need to know.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 3, 2012, 10:23 PM
Post #107 of 171 (904 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Most people would kill themselves in that situation.

Actually I think 90% of the people out there would make it through the day without an injury.

>Even AFF students forget to pull their parachute . . .

. . . and either have their parachute deployed for them or have their AAD fire.


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 3, 2012, 10:41 PM
Post #108 of 171 (901 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

there is a place where you can actually do that.

but in order to survive and do it again.
Just fly couple times in tunnel and get used to freefall, and buy yourself a speedwing, and footlaunch yourself after watching youtube and search internet forums how to foot launch that will get you solid at canopy skill

oh yeah, and watch people's cutaway on youtube for emergency procedure.

and than go to this special place where you can actually rent and jump without any qualification, and no there is no waiver at this place.

I love jumping at that place and it is cheap jump ticket too.

just don't fuck up the landing pattern. people will bitch at you hard for that.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on May 3, 2012, 10:44 PM)


BobMoore  (D 13136)

May 3, 2012, 10:47 PM
Post #109 of 171 (895 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
there is a place where you can actually do that.

I love jumping at that place and it is cheap jump ticket too.

And if you ask real nicely they'll even let do some maintenance on their jump planes.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 3, 2012, 10:48 PM
Post #110 of 171 (893 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fair enough - just be aware that doing nothing but solos will get boring quickly. As for not fitting in, give it a chance! Skydivers come from all walks of life - rich, poor, atheists, ultra-religious, shy, outgoing etc.
And just FYI, if you are ever in Memphis TN come out to West Tennessee Skydiving - Mike Mullins (our DZO/pilot) does a parabolic at the top of every jump run to help us stand up. Of course it lasts nowhere as long as the Vomit Comet but you do get to go weightless for a couple of seconds. Pretty cool....


dragon2  (D 101989)

May 4, 2012, 2:03 AM
Post #111 of 171 (870 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not a "sport" type of person at all, don't really work well in groups, no tattoos, don't drink, don't curse, don't smoke or do drugs, etc... and I definitely wouldn't "fit it" with the skydiving culture and said generalized archetypes.

Me neither, although I do drink -sometimes-. I did manage to do 2300+ jumps though, so al of the above is no excuse Cool


nigel99  (D 1)

May 4, 2012, 3:06 AM
Post #112 of 171 (863 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Before you start skydiving I really hope you reconsider your attitude. You've displayed a lot of preconceived notions and misconceptions, along with an apparent unwillingness to learn. That will get you killed or injured sooner or later, or worse still someone else.

Skydiving is NOT something you can learn from YouTube!! Training is nothing to do with dz's making money. I'm pretty sure that if they could replace all those expensive tempermental AFF instructors with a couple of video's they would. Imagine that, they could fill a super otter with first jump students and not waste a cent on some unnecessary instructor.

It simply begars belief that having done a tandem you can hold that view.


(This post was edited by nigel99 on May 4, 2012, 3:10 AM)


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 4, 2012, 3:47 AM
Post #113 of 171 (857 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Gee, I was wondering when you were going to ask me that. Of course I don't. You think I'm going to give up thousands of dollars that I sweat my ass off for all summer just to call your bluff? How stupid do you think I am? Or were you wondering if I would just lie about it and not give up the money? That's not how I roll. I don't say things that I believe to be untrue. Not even on the internet to prove a point. That'd be a shit ass deal. I'm sure you wouldn't make much more than a few hundred off it in a summer. I know it's just principal to you and the money doesn't matter. I will give you that much respect.

And the "noise to signal" ratio just went through the roof.


Why? Because I don't pack anymore? Because I agreed to a "deal" being offered even though I seem to have know a little more about what is going on with that deal? Or because I wouldn't be prepared to give away half my salary for a year (summer) just to be able to call out Ron's alleged moral behavior?

Yeah.. Ok bud.. What did that guy so a page or two back? Boom! You win Crazy

Ron, I will absolutely not admit that it is impossible to understand what it takes to do something without having done it. Like I said before, I know that it is pretty hard to cook up a full on turkey dinner because I have present for the whole damn thing a bunch of times. And its not hard to see that it isn't easy. I know it isn't easy to work on an oil rig. I know it isn't easy to be a TI and it is not the same to do a big one. You are trying to argue a point I made that I never made. I feel like you just caught a sniff of what you thought was a non TI saying that it isn't easy to do tandems and that offended you and you feel that it was necessary to drop the "I've done it and you haven't hammer"

You show me where I said that doing tandems is easy, or that doing tandems with heavy people isn't a whole lot harder than light people and I will show you where I went wrong. I never said that. I never disputed that at all. I think once I said that TI's should suck it up and do their job. If they get paid the tax that's fine. If they don't and are bitching about doing heavy people they should STFU and do the job they signed up for!

My issue is with charging the customer the fee not the TI's getting one. I think I might have said something along the lines of "If an employee is valuable to your business, you should pay them incentive or bonus or more" or something. If being able to take the heavy people means you can make the dz a buck when others can't by all means you should get an incentive. But the customer is buying a tandem skydive, just like the next guy. NOT a jump with Ron.

my definition of a skygod:

Someone who crams their shit down your throat by simply stating "I have more jumps than you, so therefore you know shit and I know everything" But really does not. And comes off like a complete f'ing asshole while doing it.

You my friend are a skygod. Only problem I know of in skydiving is that there are WAY too many people like you in it.

Edited to add:

I would gladly match your donation to charity from your fat tax, but that would mean you are still charging it. And that would defeat the whole purpose. I challenge you to get your entire dz and the TI's to make the donation. If you can do that and show me the tax receipt. I will match your portion of it. And that is straight up. I would match the entire thing, but I don't have a whole lot of money to begin with and I can't commit to that because I really have no idea what I would be getting in to.

As a matter of fact you should go ahead and tell the large people that the extra you are charging them is going to the childhood obesity foundation. Wonder how well that would go over?

Thanks to all those that have sent me PM's of support and I understand why you didn't really want to get involved in this gong show.


This time I am letting it go because I am just really getting bored of it. I said my piece, you said yours. Let the people decide.

Peace out.


(This post was edited by packerboy on May 4, 2012, 4:23 AM)


DougH  (D License)

May 4, 2012, 4:26 AM
Post #114 of 171 (847 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Waaaaaaa waaaaaaaa, a true internet crusader!

You want to cry about some alleged wrong with no skin in the game. Put up or shut up. Go get a rating and then you can personally right a wrong and give your fat tax back to the big ones.

Do you boycott comercial air travel because they charge obese people more at times?

This was a whole bunch of bs from some one that isn't even in the industry any more! The bullshit got chin high when you started comparing charging heavier people (an often voluntary infliction, or just reality) an extra fee to go skydiving (a completely frivolous optional activity) to racism. Give me a break what a joke!

Can you move on to calling the tandem instructors Nazi's so we can put this to bed.


(This post was edited by DougH on May 4, 2012, 5:01 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 4, 2012, 4:59 AM
Post #115 of 171 (837 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Moral of the story is that you are offering a product. You offer to person A for a different price than you offer it to person B because person B is well, lets just go ahead and call them fat.

Are you ready to have the rug pulled out from under your 'discrimination' argument?

It's not discrimination because it has nothing to do with being fat. A 250 lb body builder with 3% bodyfat still has to pay extra. A 6' 7" guy with a normal BMI still has to pay extra.

Get it through your skull, it has nothing to do with being fat, it's a weight issue, plain and simple.

If you were 5' 1", and weighed 180 lbs with zero muscle tone, how do you think people would describe you? Most would say fat, the medical community would say 'morbidly obese', but you wouldn't pay a dime more than the 87 lb Japanese lady that jumped before you. It's got nothing to do with being fat.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 4, 2012, 5:54 AM
Post #116 of 171 (818 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka,

Great point! Far more productive than "You have zero experience, so your opinion means shit" or "I have x number of tandem, so what I know is correct and you don't know shit" or "go get a rating and do a thousand tandems and then you have the right to discuss how pricing structures work"

Definitely has got me thinking. I'm not 100% sure I feel that the customers should be charged more because of the shape or condition of their body. I still feel that if weight or body condition is a safety issue than it should be a no go. If not, you should be treated as an equal. Regardless of what you call it i still do not think it is right to charge person A more than person B. I'm not the one who coined to term "fat tax" I was just the first person to use it in this thread. I will from now on refer to it as a weight tax or body shape tax.

I'm glad someone has brought an argument to the table without their ego. Where were you with this 110 posts ago? I knew there were nice guys out there that disagree with me. I respect that. The whole bs part of this thread as far as I'm concerned was more about ego than the actual point I was trying to make. I have always been open to logical rational discussion. I just refused to get bullied.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 4, 2012, 6:14 AM
Post #117 of 171 (813 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Where were you with this 110 posts ago?

Doesn't matter, you were wrong then too.

The fact is that it's a physical reality that it's more work to take a heavy tandem. Not a fat tandem, a heavy tandem.

TIs have no insurance, no workmans comp, no benefits, no profit sharing, and they make no money when it rains or when the wind blows too hard. They show up each day with a limited amount of energy and strength, and if a tandem is going to require more of that than average, then the TI deserves to compensated for that.

Nobody is being charged extra for being old, or ugly, or because of their race or religion, there's a physical reality at play and if you exceed a certain weight, you have to pay extra.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

May 4, 2012, 7:34 AM
Post #118 of 171 (797 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

To me, some tandem students would be less work than average, some more work than average, so the fee should represent the average knowing that it all works out in the end. That is how almost every industry works...some of my patients are more work than others, some of my AFF students are more work than others, for varying reasons, but they all get charged the same.

I can understand the surcharge and the logic behind it. I don't agree with it, but I don't own a DZ, so it doesn't matter what I think, it's not my call to make. I'm not a TI (but I sleep with one) and his thoughts on this are the reason I believe this way.

The Ron/Packerboy pissing match was fun to watch, but really went nowhere... that's what tends to happens when two type As talk at each other instead of having a meaningful discourse.


linebckr83  (D 30571)

May 4, 2012, 8:09 AM
Post #119 of 171 (788 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To me, the best part about skydiving is the free-fall experience. I could personally care less about the dingy little airplane with no seats and the parachute almost choking me alive on opening... or the bad landing and broken ankle for that matter... or the whole sub-"culture" that revolves around the sport. It is the activity itself that I love, not the regulation, the FAA, the USPA, the DZs, the other jumpers or the so called camaraderie.

Like others have said, skydivers come from all walks of life. I tend to be the party time that is up at 4am during boogies drinking and causing trouble. Others drive to their hotel at 8pm and relax and go to bed early. Luckily there are so many types of people that you are bound to find someone you really connect with.

From my experience, the "just wanna freefall, no parachute ride, no skydiving friends or memories, just freefall" guys are the ones who usually don't make it past student status, or soon quit after getting their license. Solo jumps get boring really fast. Theres a saying: "People come to experience a skydive, but stay for the people".

I cringe when people talk about the "parachute ride" as a boring, unnecessary time-wasting activity just to get to the ground. The #1 cause of fatalities is human error under a fully functional parachute, generally from this mentality which leads to having no desire to learn to properly fly and land a canopy.

If you really dislike people that much, this might not be an activity best suited for you. It is a conversation-heavy activity, where your personal space will often be intruded.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

May 4, 2012, 8:22 AM
Post #120 of 171 (781 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
To me, the best part about skydiving is the free-fall experience. I could personally care less about the dingy little airplane with no seats and the parachute almost choking me alive on opening... or the bad landing and broken ankle for that matter... or the whole sub-"culture" that revolves around the sport. It is the activity itself that I love, not the regulation, the FAA, the USPA, the DZs, the other jumpers or the so called camaraderie.

You are missing the forest for the trees. Freefall is not 'the activity itself'... it is one tree in the forest. Skydiving IS the canopy ride, the culture, the people, the planes, the regulations that we follow, the organizations that represent us, even the pissing matches on DZ.com.

What are you looking to gain out of this sport? From your words it appears that your perception of skydiving and what it actually is may not be compatible.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 4, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #121 of 171 (744 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure it was fun to watch.. Probably why the mods didn't lock it a long time ago. Laugh

My birthday is tomorrow. It was 12 yrs ago tomorrow that myself and 12 of my friends first got up, drove to Dundas, ON. to a small skydive centre on a farm out in the middle of nowhere called Swoop. There I met a guy named Gary. Gary was to become my tandem instructor. We went through all the waivers and go to the weigh in. They only had to weigh one guy. My friend Dave was a pretty big guy. After weighing him (and before it) you could see a little apprehension in the eyes of the staff. I don't remember the exact details about what they did with Dave, but it was basically explained that his weight was an issue and that the decision as to whether or not to jump would have to based on his fitness level. He was made to demonstrate that he had the ability to jump off a picnic table and do a PLF (in hindsight I don't really see how that ability made much sense), but perhaps it was to test his agility. He also made to lift his legs up into a chair type position and hold them there for a period of time. It was decided that while he was pretty heavy it would still be ok for him to jump. We go outside and go through the motions of the all the training involved with doing a tandem. They actually put a harness on each of us and got into a mockup behind us and got us to do some practice exits. I'm not sure if this was common practice or if it was just to kill some time because it was pretty windy and perhaps they were waiting for it to calm down. Finally it came to jump time and because it was my birthday and my buddy Paolo's birthday as well it was decided that we were going to be the first to go. We got all harnessed up, met the pilot and did that very slow motion walk to the plane for the video guy.

It was at that point (taxi, plane ride, lame jokes, spotting problems aside) that I strapped Gary to my back like a parachute and I jumped out of the plane. It was one of the most invigorating moments of my life. A true highlight. I will never forget it. Never.

You see what I did there? I (ME) strapped Gary to my back and jumped out of the airplane. I say that because that is how I remember it. That is how Gary made me feel. Not like he was strapping me to his chest, like I was the one strapping him to my back. I was the man that day, not Gary. He was simply along for the ride and to take care of the details so I didn't have to worry about it.

Tandem instructors that can do this.. that can realize that to them it is just another ordinary day, but to their passenger it is truly a highlight of their life. That can step outside their ego and let someone else be the man (or women) and let them bask in the moment. These tandem instructors I have MAD respect for. They are the true heroes of the sport. The rest are doing the sport a disservice IMO.

Dave was pretty embarrassed that out of this group of 12 people that he was singled out of his group of friends as being a possible safety issue, but he got over it. Even if he was charged extra he probably would have gotten over it, but it probably wouldn't have helped. But that isn't what I remember the most of the day. What I remember the best was that I was not only treated as an equal I was treated better. This was my day to shine, and they were only there to facilitate. What a day! I know what kind of business that I like to give my money to.

Now maybe this great treatment was because there was a lot of time to kill because it was windy, or because we were such a large group, or because it was a small club. But I will hold Swoop on a pedestal as a dropzone to do a first jump even though it didn't end up being my home dropzone. I did go back and do one more there before taking off out west for a while and eventually coming back to the sport 3 yrs later.

It was that day 12 yrs ago that I feel I became entitled to an opinion on how tandem students are treated. Because I WAS one.

Now when I step back and mull over this thread and what has happened I realize this:

I had an opinion about the weight tax. I felt it was wrong, immoral and greedy and I fully expected an argument. A good one. You can't get away with ANYTHING on this website without a real good serious debate. And I was prepared for one.

What I got was an argument on how I was not titled to an opinion on the matter. It took a little while to figure out, but I finally realized the irony, Ron, is that while I began an argument on equality (whether my opinion was right or wrong), you argued that I am not equally entitled to an opinion. I feel that your take on why I was not entitled to an opinion was ludicrous so I fell into the trap of trying to argue that. Do you realize the irony in this?

Ron and Diablo... Trying to tell me that my argument is wrong by telling me that they I have no right to an opinion (for whatever reason) has therefore led me to the conclusion that:

Quote:
Then your comments on the matter mean exactly shit.

Wow, can something be double ironic?

Davelepka while you may have been tempted to do the same as Ron and Diablo (You are clearly in disagreement with me) you didn't. You waited until you had something productive to say about the issue I brought forth. Mad props for that. Speaks volumes of your character.

So here it is... My offer of peace. The olive branch so to speak. You can have it.

Go ahead take it. I know you want to.

Just... can't... resist....


So...... shiny.


Ahhhh, there it is. You clicked on it didn't you? Well now you have it. Use it well.
Attachments: Rondiablo.jpg (5.78 KB)


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #122 of 171 (741 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Where were you with this 110 posts ago?

Doesn't matter, you were wrong then too.

The fact is that it's a physical reality that it's more work to take a heavy tandem. Not a fat tandem, a heavy tandem.

TIs have no insurance, no workmans comp, no benefits, no profit sharing, and they make no money when it rains or when the wind blows too hard. They show up each day with a limited amount of energy and strength, and if a tandem is going to require more of that than average, then the TI deserves to compensated for that.

Nobody is being charged extra for being old, or ugly, or because of their race or religion, there's a physical reality at play and if you exceed a certain weight, you have to pay extra.

How much does the average TI get paid? I didn't know they don't have insurance.. is it because being in this industry insurance would be crazy expensive? or simply that DZ business strategy being structured in a way that does not afford them any coverage at all?

I don't think anyone really thinks charging a weight surcharge (aka "fat" tax) is bona fide discrimination. Otherwise this practice would have been removed one way or another a long time ago.

In my perspective it comes down to charging a tax for over a certain weight limit (regardless of whether or not it is fat or muscle or water) **vs** having a fixed hard limit and not going over it no matter what, and thus not charging a tax at all... (basically no tiered pricing)...

One thing is clear, in BOTH cases there is still a "hard" hard limit. No tandem instructor is going to take a dude that weighs 500lbs (for extreme example) skydiving for ANY amount of money.

So there are physical (as in laws of physicals) hard limits that dictate maximum weight (and still be reasonably safe) regardless of DZ practices, business strategy, attitude on the subject, perspective...

If the DZ's currently charging the tiered pricing were somehow FORCED to revert to one price scheme they would simply artificially lower the max weight limit and not service the heaviest segment of the population at all (which yields them the least return on investment)... after all, the heaviest people give them the lowest margins, so if the DZ has a lot of customers they can very well afford to turn away the heaviest passengers and give priority attention to the skinny 90lb females in bathing suits. It is human nature to go for the lowest hanging fruit first.

They don't give skinny girls a cheaper price because there are certain fix costs, like gear rental, paying the instructors, electric bills, maintence costs, etc that is not weight dependent... but skydiving is a very weight orientated sport in certain other aspects (including the airplane ride up to altitude, weight affecting the wear and tear of the chute, gear, and faster fall rate thus correlating to risk of injury on landing, general fatigue of the TI/TM, etc) so the business is structured around that. Airlines, and even UPS/USPS/Fedex are doing the same thing.

I think it really comes down to DZ are discouraging (but not in a bona fide "discriminatory" way) heavier (regardless of whether it is fat, muscle, water, poop, etc) people from skydiving BECAUSE the skinner/smaller people are where the highest profit margins are, and all else being equal, they would rather spend time doing as many light weight pax as possible and as few "heavy" wide bodied pax as possible... This is human nature, basic business sense... No one can fault them for that... work smarter not harder right? After all, who doesn't want to get most bang for buck and pursue after highest ROI ?

So it comes down to the "tax" being the "difference" that makes it equitable and worthwhile for the DZ to take a heavy person vs a light person. So instead of the DZ telling heavier people, "NO.. we'd rather take a lighter person instead.." they name an extra amount that would make it financially and psychologically "worth it" to them to take a heavier person up in the air... The tiered pricing simultaneously serves as a deterrent for heavier people to go skydiving (unless skydiving is a very price inelastic activity? but I don't know) and at the same time recuperates their margin loses from the ROI hit they take from taking a bigger dude. The DZs that offer one flat rate (while it may seem more equitable and fair at first glance) are actually and effectively simply pricing everything in.... so that effectively the skinner people are (even more) subsidizing part of the ride for heavier people.... After all there ain't no free lunch and monies don't grow on trees so that has to come from somewhere...

A more cynical view could be that skydiving is a very price inelastic activity (especially first time tandem jumps) less than 1% (approx?) of the population have jumped, so those that DO make up their minds to do it certainty won't hesitate to pay the extra $20 ... so on top of and in addition to the aforementioned reasons, weight could be just a convinent "differentiator" that gives the DZ an excuse to make another quick buck while they are at all....

Either way, ultimately everything has to balance out... so the pricing scheme is simply a difference of ideology of the allocation of revenue. Which passengers should pay more. And I think in a sport that is so weight sensitive, mass is the biggest differentiation of pricing.

I think DZs that don't get enough business would not implement a fat tax, because they would rather have that person's business than nothing at all if the heavy dude was turned away by the extra fee. But being that skydiving is not a commodity and the general public do not consume this activity, it is probably price inelastic enough that even THOSE DZs can get away with a marginal tax. (again, I would think that most people who make up their minds about skydiving do not get deterred by a mere $20 extra fee) and to be honest I don't think the heavier people would really mind it that much anyway. They pay more for food, they pay more for more aviation fuel consumed, etc.

So this makes me think the primary reason the DZ's that charge a flat rate are psychological. They want to appear to others and themselves to be more "equitable"... but in fact are inadvertently disadvantaging the lighter segment of the population by making them subsidize a part of the heavier population...

So I do think a more atomic and granular approach to billing and allocation is more appropriate all things considered.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 4, 2012, 12:57 PM
Post #123 of 171 (737 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

If someone is too fat to skydive and we risk exploding a reserve canopy...I have zero desire to jump with you.
Lose weight or go bowling.
My life isn't worth risking for your simple pleasure.


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 1:02 PM
Post #124 of 171 (734 views)
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Re: [normiss] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If someone is too fat to skydive and we risk exploding a reserve canopy...I have zero desire to jump with you.
Lose weight or go bowling.
My life isn't worth risking for your simple pleasure.

You shouldn't be in the skydiving "business" if that is your attitude. Hard weight limits are there for a reason. For protection of both the pax and the TI/TM. In any case I did not surpass any soft nor hard weight limits and was not charged a "fax tax", so I don't see where your lose weight comment fits in to any of this. I too agree a life is not worth risking if you have so much to lose. Skydiving is an inherently risking sport regardless of tandem or solo, taking heavier pax or light pax. It would seem that the DZ's that charge a tier pricing structure have simply "priced in" that risk factor, and they seem to think that a heavier person risk (on your life) is worth the extra 20 bucks. Hey, it is a business, you aren't doing it as a charity or for fun or for the sake of giving your pax "pleasure" either... that is the nature of the industry and it is a double-edge sword. Why do you always make reference and mention to bowling? Do you like that a lot? Why don't you go become a bowling instructor?


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 4, 2012, 1:11 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 4, 2012, 1:47 PM
Post #125 of 171 (704 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why do you always make reference and mention to bowling?

FYI:
It's a standard skydiving expression, looking down on non-skydivers. If skydivers feel someone is unsuited to our sport, we joke that they should be told to TUB - take up bowling. That's nothing against bowling, just that bowling is safer. Bowlers don't end up as limp, crunchy bags of meat and bone fragments if they are stupid or incompetent.


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