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1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier?

 


bochen280

Apr 27, 2012, 8:23 AM
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1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? Can't Post

I'm from the TX area and earlier this week was my first time skydiving. I wanted to do my first jump solo but unfortunately was told by the DZ that that was only offered on the weekends. So I went with a tandem jump instead.

When I got there, winds were calm, clear skies all around, absolutely beautiful weather and temperatures.

The tandem instructor I was paired with happened to be one of the more experienced, with I think 5,000+ jumps.

He briefed me on the basics, put me in a blue jumpsuit, and I had to put on that silly looking hat... basically it was pretty fast paced in less than half an hour after I got to the DZ we were already up in the air (not a lot of other tandem jumpers that day, so loading went quick)

The jump itself went perfect. I arched when I was supposed to... everything was stabilized. The instructor didn't forget to deploy the drogue chute or miss a strap or d-link.

Freefall was by far the best part... but I honestly felt it was way too short. I understand for safety reasons (in case he had to cutaway) tandem pulls happen at 5,500ft... but I don't think our airplane ever reached the max of 13,500 ft when we jumped out... barely even 13,000ft... I would have liked longer freefall experience. But oh well.

Even though I had those goggles on and was wearing them correctly, I lost a contact lenses on the way down during free fall shortly after we reached terminal velocity. I have no idea how that could have happened but I guess the wind must have went in on the sides.

During the glide down to earth the straps felt way too tight for comfort... The instructor said that was to prevent me from falling out... I didn't believe him until I got home and researched this and found out there were passengers that have fallen out of their tandem suits/harness before..

Landing didn't seem a big deal at all until I hit the ground and broken/sprained/fractured my ankle really badly...

I've been basically resting the last couple of days and had some time to think about how this incident might have happened and how it could be or could have been avoided or mitigated.

At only 5'11" I'm actually at least three if not four inches TALLER than my tandem instructor. I didn't weight him but they DID weight me, and I was at 199lbs (just under the 200 limit were I would be fined extra for the jump, and 11+ more lbs I wouldn't have been able to jump at all) I'm not fat or rotund, just heavy.

I mean it doesn't help matters that I was both taller and heavier than my instructor by a significant amount... not only does that tilt the center of gravity, it also means a faster fall rate (harder landing) and who knows I have a big head (no kidding, they had to get me the largest hat and even then it barely fit) and I might have blocked some of his visibility...

Between the tight straps, the jump suit and just the overall position of being suspended in the air during the glide to final approach I really had a very hard time of "bringing my knees up", or "bringing my legs up" and then "pointing my toes towards the ground"...

During the brief classroom instruction I was told to keep both my feet and knees together, bring legs up during landing, and keep toes pointing forward... That was easy to do under normal circumstances, but in that suit and with those death grip straps it was nearly impossible to do...

I told the instructor this prior to final approach and he told me to use my hands and grab onto those funky looking green tube-like things on the sides of my leg/thigh on the blue suit itself to basically "pull myself/my legs Up" ... I did this during his flare and I thought everything would go smoothly...

Then he surprised me by saying that we are doing a sit down, at the very last moment.... next thing I know my butt slams the ground, and seemingly at the same moment my right foot/ankle got hurt really bad.

On our way down I chatted with him a bit about the accuracy of his landing ability... he told me he had a stadium rating or something like that and could land within meters of where he intended to land.... I took that to mean he could also provide the softest landing possible... I was less concerned about accuracy and more about gentleness on impact with ground. During classroom he briefed me on the procedure for a standup landing, but not a PLC (I didn't even know what that term was until much later when I read the SIM about types of landing techniques) ... so went he told me we were during a sit down at the very last possible moment, I had no time to react, and even if I did have time, I wouldn't have know what exactly to do....

I think all that coupled with the fact that I've never been a very flexible person (in terms of legs, stretching, arms, etc) meant that under those tight straps it was not possible for me to keep my feet closely together, and I could only bring up my legs with the help of my arms, and when pulling up by the side of my jumpsuit on each side of the thigh, this caused my feet to orient outwards/split.... (as opposed to ideally be straight and pointed directly forward) and on impact that was what strained/fractured my ankle/foot....

The instructor was so concerned about a possible "face plant" (that was what he called it) if my feet hit the ground first and we toppled over, that he obsessed about getting my feet up to the point where I forgot the actual landing/impact and the position/angle of my feet upon impact.

There was a girl beside me doing tandem with another instructor and she had a stand up landing and I felt really bad about myself.

I never intend on doing tandem again (in fact I never wanted to do tandem in the first place, but it was the only option under those circumstances)

Is solo landing any easier? I see others doing perfect running landings, stand up landings at the DZ all the time that morning when I first drove in..... it doesn't seem that difficult at all....

Ironically, is tandem landings more dangerous than solo landings if the passenger is both taller and heavier than the instructor? I see videos on the net all the time when this petite lady just rests on top of her bigger, taller male tandem instructor and she just lands as light as a feather..... in my case it was lopsided and I was larger than my instructor, and believe me it was NOT a soft landing by any means.

Would landing have been easier had I done this on my own instead of worrying about making sure my instructors feet landed first before I was allowed to make contact with the ground?


(This post was edited by bochen280 on Apr 27, 2012, 9:30 AM)


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Apr 27, 2012, 8:39 AM
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all... are you an engineer? Just a hunch Angelic

Do you have video of your landing? That would be helpful given that you don't know what your leg position actually was on landing. My best guess is that you may have reached for the ground or didn't have them up enough. Your height difference has little to do with it. There are some good pics on here somewhere of a female TI, a tiny little girl, with a tandem 'student' that is well over 6' tall. There's a female TI at a DZ I frequent that often takes guys a foot taller than she is, doesn't seem to affect her landings at all.

About sit vs. stand landings... imagine coordinating 4 legs on two different people precicely so that you aren't tripping each other on landing. Not always feasable or practical, so sliding landings are often used. Pros and cons to both, that I'm sure the TIs will pipe up with (I'm not a TI but I did sleep with one last night Smile)

'Difficulty' of landing tandem vs solo is a meaningless term. They are different, that's all. If you want to learn to skydive, heal up and go back and do that solo, either AFF or IAD.


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 27, 2012, 8:39 AM
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like your legs went to sleep...and therefore you didn't get them up as required.
I hate when a tandem student gets broken!
I tend to be very firm with some (especially the larger ones that are also NOT in decent physical shape).
I tell them bluntly: "If you don't lift your legs we have a very good chance of breaking your leg. Then you get a very expensive ride to the hospital, but you will get good drugs!"

Then I show them to simply grab the jumpsuit at the knees and lift your legs up using the suit.

And yes, solo landing is significantly safer and generally easier...once you understand the timing of it.

I'm sorry you got hurt, yet that IS a risk.

As I sit here with my right foot in an air cast.
My shoe edge caught the ground on a tandem landing and folded my foot under me. I'm glad I cleared my leg before we finished landing as it could have been much worse than just a Jones Fracture.

Heal up fast, then go get back in the sky!

Cool


bochen280

Apr 27, 2012, 8:57 AM
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Re: [peregrinerose] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

peregrinerose, no I'm not an engineer. I work in IT but definitely not a geek.

This is going to sound weird, but even though I purchased the packaged that included everything, I specifically told them to put away the cameras and that I didn't want the camera man. I didn't go there to make "memories", and I don't think the "first time" is any different than the nth time... I just wanted a jump experience. I've always been camera shy and didn't want the annoying camera jumper to be distracting me from the already short free fall time that I did have. So no, nothing was captured on video or photo. The reason I purchased the highest level package is because I didn't want to get stuck in "classroom" for long periods or wait after everyone else (this was a last moment thing where I scheduled the day before, so I would have been LAST on the list to jump)... in actuality had I known Monday's would be so light in terms of tandem passengers then a standard jump would be just the same.

Yeah I didn't even think about the tripping over each other's leg component of that... if we were both doing running landings at the same time, that very well might have happened.

Tandem is definitely not a passive roller coaster ride. It just seems if there are pros and cons and risks with both methods involved I'd rather do solo on my own.


bochen280

Apr 27, 2012, 8:57 AM
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Re: [normiss] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss, my legs didn't really go to sleep. I could get them up, just not up enough to the point that my instructor would have liked. I felt and saw them pulling up, but he kept telling me he couldn't "see them"... I know the sensation of legs going to sleep, but this was not the case. I think the tight straps and the fact that I was suspended in the air with those straps that were seperating my legs made it very hard to keep them together... and pulling my legs up to that extend and with that duration required stronger abdominal muscles than I had.

For solo landings, how does one "know" the timing of the flare, how much to brake, and when to start "running"? I guess it all comes with real life practice and runs a risk no matter what?

Are there any water landing DZ for AFF? There is nothing safer than a soft water landing right? Though, being in Texas that is probably not practical... we dont' have any oceans around here...


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 27, 2012, 9:00 AM
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Water??? No thanks - I don't wanna drown!

Think about all that gear wet and how much that could weigh you down.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Apr 27, 2012, 9:13 AM
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

'soft' water landing? Hardly. There's nothing soft about water, and gives a whole list of complicating factors, not the least of which is drowning.

Sounds like you just weren't flexible enough to get the legs up high enough. I'd definitely recommend lots of stretching, as that helps quite a bit with skydiving.

It wasn't 'geeky' that I was going for, it was the extreme analyticalness of your post. Engineering types are always that way. I'm an optometrist, and have a love/hate relationship with my engineer type patients due to their excessive overthinking Smile


dthames  (B 37674)

Apr 27, 2012, 9:24 AM
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
For solo landings, how does one "know" the timing of the flare, how much to brake, and when to start "running"? I guess it all comes with real life practice and runs a risk no matter what?

You pretend/practice in the first jump course. Then you do it. Sometimes it is better than others. After a while you learn to be more precise. A beginneer (me) running out a landing is not advised.

PFL Parachute Landing Fall, unless you are perfectly sat down on your feet.


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 27, 2012, 9:46 AM
Post #9 of 171 (6403 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm an optometrist, and have a love/hate relationship with my engineer type patients due to their excessive overthinking Smile

haha, engineer here and thats me in a nutshell.


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 27, 2012, 9:57 AM
Post #10 of 171 (6390 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For solo landings, how does one "know" the timing of the flare, how much to brake, and when to start "running"? I guess it all comes with real life practice and runs a risk no matter what?

as a student jumper the landing is definitely the part of the skydive i am worried about the most.

as far as how to know when to flare, you have a radio and they tell you when to flare as you are approaching to land.

on my first solo i landed skidding, standing up. but it was not a good landing. i landed a bit hard on my right foot because my leg was stiff, it hurt a bit. I also pulled on both toggles slightly before fully flaring.

landing on water is not going to teach you how to land properly.

Next time you are at the DZ you should spend some time and just watch people land before your jump, that's what im gonna do.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Apr 27, 2012, 11:48 AM
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a quick reply on a few of the topics:

Getting the legs up for landing can be difficult for even a fit student IF the harness is not adjusted well. It is something that instructors are not always perfectly aware of because they are rarely ever on front.

Using the grippers on the side of the jumpsuit is a good way to help get the legs up.

Legs straps normally stay pretty tight but a couple others can be loosened off after the canopy opens to avoid discomfort for the student. Only 1 able bodied person has ever fallen out of a tandem harness and that's due to gross misadjustment. Still, everyone in the industry likes to have straps good and snug -- even if we'd leave everything just a little looser and more comfortable on our personal gear.

Students aren't always ready to use leg muscles to avoid slamming their butt on the ground, and it is something instructors could talk more about. We're used to being ready to apply some muscle tension, but students often are not.

Usually tandem landings go OK but maybe in 1 in 1000 a student gets injured. (That's a pretty rough guess.) Not every tandem landing is perfectly soft and feet do sometimes get twisted, especially because newbies don't have a good sense yet of the timing of the landing and body position.

Plenty of tandems happen with students heavier or also taller than the instructor. That's pretty common. It all comes down to getting a good flare, which is a bit harder the heavier the pair of people is, but not a whole lot.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Apr 27, 2012, 12:40 PM
Post #12 of 171 (6307 views)
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Re: [dontlikemustard] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
as far as how to know when to flare, you have a radio and they tell you when to flare as you are approaching to land.

Not every dz puts radios on their students. Even if they do, radios can fail. Don't count on getting any help with flare timing on any jump.

In reply to:
Next time you are at the DZ you should spend some time and just watch people land before your jump

Excellent advice! Pay particular attention to those jumping student canopies. If possible, find an instructor or coach and ask questions about what you are seeing.


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 27, 2012, 2:13 PM
Post #13 of 171 (6252 views)
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Re: [skybytch] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
as far as how to know when to flare, you have a radio and they tell you when to flare as you are approaching to land.

Not every dz puts radios on their students. Even if they do, radios can fail. Don't count on getting any help with flare timing on any jump.


hmm, wasnt aware of that. if it wasn't for that radio i definitely would have flared too early. the ground seemed much closer than it was once i was at around 25 feet from landing.


packerboy  (C 34282)

Apr 30, 2012, 5:25 PM
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big. If you are not too big to jump you should be treated just like everyone else, even if it takes a little more effort to do so. I can't get over the greediness of that... Do skinny chicks pay less than mediocre sized people because it takes less gas to get them to altitude and causes less fatigue on the instructor? Doubt it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 30, 2012, 7:42 PM
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Re: [dontlikemustard] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
as far as how to know when to flare, you have a radio and they tell you when to flare as you are approaching to land.

Not every dz puts radios on their students. Even if they do, radios can fail. Don't count on getting any help with flare timing on any jump.


hmm, wasnt aware of that. if it wasn't for that radio i definitely would have flared too early. the ground seemed much closer than it was once i was at around 25 feet from landing.

No offense to you but this is a good example of why we kind of cringe when students offer advice on the internet. You will hear the saying, "You don't know what you don't know."


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 30, 2012, 7:43 PM)


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Apr 30, 2012, 8:43 PM
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

you don't know what you don't know, come back with a tandem rating and a couple thousand tandems.

In reply to:
I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big. If you are not too big to jump you should be treated just like everyone else, even if it takes a little more effort to do so. I can't get over the greediness of that... Do skinny chicks pay less than mediocre sized people because it takes less gas to get them to altitude and causes less fatigue on the instructor? Doubt it.


spootch  (C License)

Apr 30, 2012, 10:53 PM
Post #17 of 171 (5922 views)
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Re: [jsaxton] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you don't know what you don't know, come back with a tandem rating and a couple thousand tandems.

In reply to:
I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big. If you are not too big to jump you should be treated just like everyone else, even if it takes a little more effort to do so. I can't get over the greediness of that... Do skinny chicks pay less than mediocre sized people because it takes less gas to get them to altitude and causes less fatigue on the instructor? Doubt it.


And then what? I've taken everyone from 90 lbs to 210 and they all pay the same and get the same treatment.


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 30, 2012, 11:41 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No offense to you but this is a good example of why we kind of cringe when students offer advice on the internet. You will hear the saying, "You don't know what you don't know."

Point taken and understood, didn't take offense.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 1, 2012, 4:01 AM
Post #19 of 171 (5863 views)
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Re: [spootch] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
you don't know what you don't know, come back with a tandem rating and a couple thousand tandems.

In reply to:
I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big. If you are not too big to jump you should be treated just like everyone else, even if it takes a little more effort to do so. I can't get over the greediness of that... Do skinny chicks pay less than mediocre sized people because it takes less gas to get them to altitude and causes less fatigue on the instructor? Doubt it.


And then what? I've taken everyone from 90 lbs to 210 and they all pay the same and get the same treatment.

Except I do know that sometimes it takes a little more work to give a customer the same treatment as others. Just because it is in another business shouldn't matter. I know plenty of tandem instructors who think it is wrong. Would you charge extra to take a disabled person because it is more work? It's greedy. Suck it up and do the job yOu get paid for.


linebckr83  (D 30571)

May 1, 2012, 7:42 AM
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't expect anything extra for taking a big 220lb guy. But after you try crawling around a 182 with someone of that size, you'll understand why I definitely don't turn down the extra money.

And generally, a mediocre sized female is a little cuter than a big dude so I don't expect extra Wink

To the OP, I'd put money down that if you did another tandem jump, your landing would be considerably nicer. Sometimes this kind of thing happens, but usually not. Tandem landings are a very dynamic process, and sometimes an error in judgement occurs. In all honesty, even if you couldn't pick your feet up enough, he should have the experience and knowledge to deal with it. You'd be surprised how often a tandem student doesn't raise their feet as much as I'd like.

It's not really fair to compare it to the "soft tiptoe landings" of experienced jumpers, which IMO are much easier. Spend some time and watch the solo students landing, and you'll see it is a little harder to do correctly when you're first learning.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 1, 2012, 8:18 AM
Post #21 of 171 (5799 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not fat or rotund, just heavy...

...that coupled with the fact that I've never been a very flexible person (in terms of legs, stretching, arms, etc).

In reply to:

So...you're overweight & out of shape.

...but then again,~

The harness was too tight, the helmet too small, the goggles too loose, the TM too short, the altitude to little -Shocked

~Lucky ya survived at all! WinkSly


DougH  (D License)

May 1, 2012, 8:52 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Better to high than too low... better to tight than tooooooo loose. TongueCool

I am glad I don't get a phat boy fee but I can totally support the TM's that do get one. It is more work, and it is more wear and tear on the body.

Instead we have a relatively low weight limit and no option for people to "pay up" into the next weight bracket.

It gives me way more flexibility as the instructor because I get to choose to take people that are over the weight "limit" and I can make a judgement call based on fitness and body shape. It is much easier and safer to take some one who is heavier because they are big and fit, than to take some one who lacks fitness and is shaped like a bowling ball.

We will see if I still like the flexibility and lack of extra compensation in a few hundred tandem jumps!Sly


normiss  (D 28356)

May 1, 2012, 8:56 AM
Post #23 of 171 (5776 views)
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Re: [DougH] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

While I do also use fitness and body shape as a consideration, it's of a much greater significance to consider the maximum weight limits....I would REALLY hate to blow thru a reserve.....
Unsure


bochen280

May 1, 2012, 1:12 PM
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Re: [linebckr83] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the DZ in my area has a weight surcharge, it is just like how Fedex/UPS has fuel surcharge these days. With gas prices so high aviation fuel isn't cheap either so I understand why they have that in place. Plus when the government puts in place the 100 dollar per flight tax all skydiving is suddenly going to get a heck of a lot more expensive.

In my logbook I think the equipment used was a 366. Maybe they didn't have a 400? It would have given me a slower fall rate for sure... but then again my feet were still not positioned correctly...

I think towards the last few seconds before impact the TM had stressed so much about getting my feet up in the air to avoid faceplants that all I was thinking about and preoccupied about was using my arms to grab on to the leg grabbers on the side and pull up as much and for as long as possible... mentally I just "froze" (not as in panic, more like idling) in that state... On retrospect, I don't know what I was thinking would happen, that he'd do a stand up landing and hold a 200 lb person in his front kangaroo pouch? Of course not... it is obvious that laws of physics dictate we (at the very least ME) would either topple over hard or butt hit the ground the last few feet... I'm lucky I didn't break any back bones...

The thing is I was not briefed what to do in the above situation... all I was told is to wait for his signal to "standup"... but that call never came, and by the time he told me we were doing sit down, already splat... and I had no time to even think about getting my feet in a better position to absorb forces on impact.

Being a guy that is the reason I don't want to do tandem in the first place. I wouldn't mind doing it if I was a small petite girl... but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do... and it is not even a real skydiving... I know control is an illusion, but if I'm going to get hurt I want to be responsible for hurting myself... not put my fate in some TM - no matter his level of experience.

I've seen some very soft tiptoe landings on Youtube... it almost seems like they were literally stepping off an escalator... that is a real ideal landing.


sebcat  (D 22826)

May 1, 2012, 1:30 PM
Post #25 of 171 (5710 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

You jumped, you lived, good job! We can't pad all the floors and walls, now can we?


bochen280

May 1, 2012, 1:38 PM
Post #26 of 171 (1654 views)
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Re: [sebcat] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

That is why I was asking if solo landings would be any better. I live in TX but if I ever traveled to California, Hawaii, Florida or any of them non landlocked states I really love to do a water landing by myself.

I understand that at higher altitudes water is not "soft" and the impact is same as hitting concrete... but in this case had I landed in water there is no way I would have broken my ankle...

It seems many here don't recommend water landings. But are there any DZ anywhere in the US that offers that? Ever since watching Point Break as a kid that's something I always wanted to do. (yes, I know the skydiving portrayed in that movie is not realistic) I have no problem swimming and would not drown.


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 1, 2012, 1:50 PM)


Southern_Man  (C License)

May 1, 2012, 2:06 PM
Post #27 of 171 (1628 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It seems many here don't recommend water landings. But are there any DZ anywhere in the US that offers that? Ever since watching Point Break as a kid that's something I always wanted to do. (yes, I know the skydiving portrayed in that movie is not realistic) I have no problem swimming and would not drown.

You must hold an A license to do an intentional water landing, so there is nowhere that will allow you to do that as a student.

Solo landings could be harder or could be easier than your tandem landing. It is possible you will break your ankle if you jump.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 1, 2012, 2:08 PM
Post #28 of 171 (1627 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no problem swimming and would not drown.



In reply to:


If ya couldn't pull your legs into landing position on the tandem, how well do you think you could swim with a harness on, dragging a wet parachute? Sly

That and letting everything dry out and getting the reserve re-packed each time can get rather time consuming & expensive.

Water landings add a degree of complexity to the Skydive that as a beginner one would NOT want to go out of their way to experience.


Ron

May 1, 2012, 2:31 PM
Post #29 of 171 (1617 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no safer way for a student to make a jump than tandem... There is no more dangerous way for an instructor to make a jump.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 1, 2012, 2:43 PM
Post #30 of 171 (1611 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Last time I checked, TX had plenty of coastline - has something happened I am not aware of?? Tongue
Also you are going to have to get over being camera shy if you want to skydive - you probably won't find another sport that has as many people wanting to get video of their participation. I can hardly remember the last freefall jump I did that didnt have at least one person wearing a camera.
Video is also an excellent tool to be able to see what you are doing in the air.


Ron

May 1, 2012, 2:44 PM
Post #31 of 171 (1609 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big.

Then do not ever become a TI.

I guess you get paid the same for packing a Tandem or a sport rig? Do you give a discount to the guy with a small velo?


linebckr83  (D 30571)

May 1, 2012, 2:44 PM
Post #32 of 171 (1609 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do... and it is not even a real skydiving...

Care to explain? I think anytime someone leaves an aircraft, deploys a parachute, and flies it to the ground to prevent death, it's called a skydive.

I did 2 tandems before any solo jumps, and a couple more while getting my tandem rating. I never felt like it was gay. And it doesn't cross my mind as a TI either (unless my male student is gay, but they are always super professional about it).

In reply to:
I've seen some very soft tiptoe landings on Youtube... it almost seems like they were literally stepping off an escalator... that is a real ideal landing.

Like I said, that is usually the case. I haven't botched a tandem landing or hurt anyone yet (although there were cases on gusty days I was sure it was gonna happen), but I bet that day is coming if I stick with it. And I also bet that everyone in those YouTube videos has landed hard more than a few times. It happens. Unfortunately, if you jumped a different day, with a different instructor, or simply sooner or later in the day than you did, this injury probably wouldn't have happened and none of this would be a concern to you.

If you jump solo the landings will most likely be pretty rough until you learn the sight picture and timing to correctly flare. To compensate for this you'll learn to PLF to help prevent injury until you get better at it. Then, once you're really good at it, you might take up swooping and a whole new world of botched landings and faceplants will be open to you Blush


spootch  (C License)

May 1, 2012, 2:45 PM
Post #33 of 171 (1607 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

quit whineing, and quit tryin to blame everything else. You didn't have enough strength to lift your legs up and you broke your ankle. It happens.Unimpressed

Now your askin about solo landings? guess what you can die from those as well.

Water landings? give your head a shake.Pirate

I'm sorry you paid a BS fat tax.
I'm sorry you couldn't do the things you needed to avoid a broken ankle.
And i'm sorry no one "briefed" you on how jumping can be dangerous.

Like Twardo said your lucky to be alive! So here's your briefing for the next time you wish to take up anything more dangerous than sport knitting...

http://youtu.be/unkIVvjZc9Y


bochen280

May 1, 2012, 6:30 PM
Post #34 of 171 (1577 views)
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Re: [linebckr83] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do... and it is not even a real skydiving...

Care to explain? I think anytime someone leaves an aircraft, deploys a parachute, and flies it to the ground to prevent death, it's called a skydive.

I did 2 tandems before any solo jumps, and a couple more while getting my tandem rating. I never felt like it was gay. And it doesn't cross my mind as a TI either (unless my male student is gay, but they are always super professional about it).

In reply to:
I've seen some very soft tiptoe landings on Youtube... it almost seems like they were literally stepping off an escalator... that is a real ideal landing.

Like I said, that is usually the case. I haven't botched a tandem landing or hurt anyone yet (although there were cases on gusty days I was sure it was gonna happen), but I bet that day is coming if I stick with it. And I also bet that everyone in those YouTube videos has landed hard more than a few times. It happens. Unfortunately, if you jumped a different day, with a different instructor, or simply sooner or later in the day than you did, this injury probably wouldn't have happened and none of this would be a concern to you.

If you jump solo the landings will most likely be pretty rough until you learn the sight picture and timing to correctly flare. To compensate for this you'll learn to PLF to help prevent injury until you get better at it. Then, once you're really good at it, you might take up swooping and a whole new world of botched landings and faceplants will be open to you Blush

I just meant it is an awkward position and generally seems weird to do a tandem when both the instructor and the passenger are of the same gender, especially if both are males. It is just my personal preference but I don't feel comfortable getting that close to someone, especially if it is another dude. In fact had the DZ allowed solo on weekdays there is no way I would have settled for a tandem. He did the jumping out, the stabilization, he deployed the drogue chute, pulled the ripcord, glided the parachute down for landing, and his legs impacted first... I know technically tandem counts as skydiving, but in actuality it felt like I didn't really have to do anything, just a passenger.


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 1, 2012, 6:33 PM)


BobMoore  (D 13136)

May 1, 2012, 7:00 PM
Post #35 of 171 (1567 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... Do skinny chicks pay less than mediocre sized people because it takes less gas to get them to altitude and causes less fatigue on the instructor? Doubt it.

How big are mediocre sized people? I'm dyin' to know.


ruleofpull  (Student)

May 1, 2012, 7:43 PM
Post #36 of 171 (1545 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It is just my personal preference but I don't feel comfortable getting that close to someone, especially if it is another dude.

Then, even when you are jumping solo, you might have a problem sitting in a plane full of (gaseous) boys (okay, some are men). But even from the female newbie-perspective, most loads I've been consisted of males. Skydiving, from what I've observed, is not a female dominated sport. You need to be comfy with who you are, and with being in close proximity to both sexes, especially as the ride to altitude can be really cozy at times. Not to be harsh, but get used to it. And...
Sorry about the broken ankle-heal fast!


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 1, 2012, 8:17 PM
Post #37 of 171 (1536 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I read that big long post and by the end all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big.

Then do not ever become a TI.

I guess you get paid the same for packing a Tandem or a sport rig? Do you give a discount to the guy with a small velo?

I'm not interested in becoming a tandem instructor. If I did, I would not work at a dropzone that promotes discrimination. It's simple. You are either too big to jump safely or you are not.

I got paid a different amount for sport rig and tandem because they are two different things which contributed to very different revenue streams for the DZ. I did not however get paid extra to pack a new tandem canopy as opposed to an "experienced" one just because it was harder work, or a Sigma rig vs. an older Vector rig.

I do a job where my customers can be WILDLY different. One can be a major pain in my ass while the next can be an awesome pleasant experience. They all get the same job done for the same amount because the cost of technical support is not relative to the IQ of the person buying it from me.

There is no reason why the DZ can't switch it up with the big ones to prevent one instructor from getting overworked with them. If it isn't workable, then maybe the allowable safe limit should be reduced.

The "You have never been a tandem instructor, you don't know what it is like" argument just doesn't work for me. Packing 40 tandem rigs in a day is sure as hell harder work than doing 15 tandem jumps. And I've done a hell of a lot harder work than packing tandem rigs before.

If you can't do the job you signed up for then don't do it. But to go to your boss and say "You know what.. I feel like I worked a little harder than usual this afternoon because the people I had to work with were fat and not as helpful. I think you should give me a few bucks more an hour just when I work with fat people." is downright ludicrous. IMO

You know what Jackie Robinson? If we had you on our baseball team it may just be a little bit harder to deal with the press, you know, what with you being black and all. And it might be a little bit harder to sell tickets because, you know, people really aren't that used to a black person around here. So we are just going to go ahead and take a little off your salary to compensate for the harder work that we are going to have to do... I mean.. it is going to be a little tougher for us.. Because, well, you just aint the same.


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 1, 2012, 8:56 PM
Post #38 of 171 (1528 views)
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Re: 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

The DZ I'm at finally started charging a little extra and paying a little extra for big tandems -- those over 250 lbs. There were only a few TI's like myself who were willing enough or trusted enough by the DZO to take up the big guys, not to mention being low enough weight in a couple cases. The appreciation of others and the satisfaction of a job well done are nice, but I don't always want to be the one to have to take up (at standard pay) the guy who is 265, 280, or even 300 lbs, mostly out of widebody C-182's in earlier years.

I'm not saying there's only one way of doing things, but at the extremes I'm not going to say no to extra pay as a TI.


(This post was edited by pchapman on May 1, 2012, 8:57 PM)


jonathan.newman  (D 30644)

May 1, 2012, 10:25 PM
Post #39 of 171 (1517 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

When you say "get your feet up", is it lifting your knees and curling into a ball or is it extending both legs in front like a pike position?


Abedy  (D 10153)

May 1, 2012, 11:13 PM
Post #40 of 171 (1511 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...The thing is I was not briefed what to do in the above situation...

Sorry mate, but even reading your first article I had a voice yelling "Collecting stuff for my ambulance chaser, please help me" in my mind. As Twardo put it, according to all the factors you're complaining about from too little altitude to loose goggles it's a great miracle you survived at all.

I dunno what you were expecting, but if you're out of shape and not really fit, you shouldn't make a tandem jump. If ya do, get yer bloody legs up when landing.

Your TI did instruct you. Even if he didn't mention a sliding landing before boarding - which I highly doubt! - he told you in the air under canopy and practised with you several times. So how come you're ranting about not being briefed?

Just a last thought: A 360 tandem canopy is sufficient in size.


(This post was edited by Abedy on May 1, 2012, 11:14 PM)


prada

May 2, 2012, 1:09 AM
Post #41 of 171 (1499 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In my logbook I think the equipment used was a 366. Maybe they didn't have a 400? It would have given me a slower fall rate for sure...

Quote:
Just a last thought: A 360 tandem canopy is sufficient in size.


I am only a beginner, but what I think is, there is no relevant connection between fall rate and landing/flaring.
Except may be that the faster you come down the better the flaring actually works.

But from the physics you have to understand that flaring is not the same as 'air-braking' like it worked with vintage round canopies.

In fact, what you do when flaring is you change the shape of your wing and create a course change from 'going down' to 'going up' - exactly like when a pilot of an airplane changes the shape of the wings to create upstream or downstream.

Landing a modern canopy is timing the moment of the course change to the right distance above ground in order to relatively to the earth decrease the speed. But the speed change does not come from air braking - only from the directional change. (bit difficult to explain in English / not my mother tongue)

Therefore the before reached velocity has no influence on the quality of the "brake", except for the fact that if you are not fast enough, the flare will not function and thus no directional change can happen...

my five cents
Prada


(This post was edited by prada on May 2, 2012, 1:10 AM)


nigel99  (D 1)

May 2, 2012, 2:27 AM
Post #42 of 171 (1492 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Jumping is a very intimate and dangerous sport. In the end it isn't for everyone.

Water adds complexity in lots of ways and doesn't stop you getting killed.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 2, 2012, 3:51 AM
Post #43 of 171 (1480 views)
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Re: [pchapman] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The DZ I'm at finally started charging a little extra and paying a little extra for big tandems -- those over 250 lbs. There were only a few TI's like myself who were willing enough or trusted enough by the DZO to take up the big guys, not to mention being low enough weight in a couple cases. The appreciation of others and the satisfaction of a job well done are nice, but I don't always want to be the one to have to take up (at standard pay) the guy who is 265, 280, or even 300 lbs, mostly out of widebody C-182's in earlier years.

I'm not saying there's only one way of doing things, but at the extremes I'm not going to say no to extra pay as a TI.

Maybe if a TI is willing to go the distance to make a buck for his/her dz and has superior skills, knowledge, and experience they should get paid a bit more for EVERY jump. You know, kinda how the rest of the business world works. You have a more valuable employee, you pay them more.

The only remote possible way that I can see this not being discrimination is to call it a fuel surcharge tax because it costs more in fuel to carry more weight. However, if that were the case then fun jumpers over 200lbs should have to pay more.

Depending on conditions I seem to remember Ti's wanting to do the big guys at our DZ. Perhaps it was speed they were looking for... There was obviously no shortage of TI's willing to take the ladies for obvious reasons, but I seem to remember our smaller TI's not wanting to take the really small students.

I think what needs to be remembered is that this is not UPS. UPS hauls parcels, inanimate objects. These are human beings going out to experience the thrill of a lifetime. They won't think twice to pay an extra $20 because they are there and have already tossed down a couple hundred. It's because of that they are being taken advantage of.

"I'm not saying there's only one way of doing things, but at the extremes I'm not going to say no to extra pay as a TI."

- You should IMO. You are still getting a ride to altitude at someone elses expense. Take a stand against discrimination. It's not exactly throwing an "n" bomb at someone, but it is the same principle IMO.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 2, 2012, 3:56 AM
Post #44 of 171 (1476 views)
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Re: [prada] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
In my logbook I think the equipment used was a 366. Maybe they didn't have a 400? It would have given me a slower fall rate for sure...

Quote:
Just a last thought: A 360 tandem canopy is sufficient in size.


I am only a beginner, but what I think is, there is no relevant connection between fall rate and landing/flaring.
Except may be that the faster you come down the better the flaring actually works.

But from the physics you have to understand that flaring is not the same as 'air-braking' like it worked with vintage round canopies.

In fact, what you do when flaring is you change the shape of your wing and create a course change from 'going down' to 'going up' - exactly like when a pilot of an airplane changes the shape of the wings to create upstream or downstream.

Landing a modern canopy is timing the moment of the course change to the right distance above ground in order to relatively to the earth decrease the speed. But the speed change does not come from air braking - only from the directional change. (bit difficult to explain in English / not my mother tongue)

Therefore the before reached velocity has no influence on the quality of the "brake", except for the fact that if you are not fast enough, the flare will not function and thus no directional change can happen...

my five cents
Prada

Someone should tell the swoopers that they are killing themselves diving at the ground for no reason! Wink


diablopilot  (D License)

May 2, 2012, 5:28 AM
Post #45 of 171 (1465 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not interested in becoming a tandem instructor.

Then your comments on the matter mean exactly shit.


Ron

May 2, 2012, 5:34 AM
Post #46 of 171 (1463 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm not interested in becoming a tandem instructor.

Good, but this just shows you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to how much work is involved with bigger people.

Quote:
It's simple. You are either too big to jump safely or you are not.

Again, this just shows you have no idea what you are talking about. It is also clear that you have no interest in learning anything about it.

Quote:
I got paid a different amount for sport rig and tandem because they are two different things

Nonsense, they are simply folding material into a bag.

Quote:
There is no reason why the DZ can't switch it up with the big ones to prevent one instructor from getting overworked with them.

Again, you have no idea of what you are saying. There is a max weight for a tandem system. If the PAX is heavier, then the TI has to be lighter.

Quote:
Packing 40 tandem rigs in a day is sure as hell harder work than doing 15 tandem jumps.

Having never benn a TI... You have no clue what you are talking about,

Quote:
If you can't do the job you signed up for then don't do it.

Like you not doing tandems at all?

Quote:
But to go to your boss and say "You know what.. I feel like I worked a little harder than usual this afternoon because the people I had to work with were fat and not as helpful. I think you should give me a few bucks more an hour just when I work with fat people." is downright ludicrous. IMO

Well:
1. The TI's do not make those rules.
2. You having never been a TI shows you have no idea how much work it is, or how much extra a bigger person is.

You thinking you know it all about something you have never done is what is ludicrous.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 2, 2012, 5:55 AM
Post #47 of 171 (1454 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been present for the operations of thousands of tandem jumps. I've been very close friends with TI's for years who have collectively done tens of thousands of tandem jumps. I've been in a Cessna 182 hundreds of times with tandem pairs. I worked for and spent hours and hours talking to a DZO who has owned the oldest drop zone in Canada since its inception and has been in the sport for 50+ yrs. I have packed probably close to a thousand tandem rigs and probably as many sport rigs. I've done 5 tandem jumps as a passenger.

You are absolutely correct, I have absolutely NO CLUE because I have never ridden the back of a tandem passenger and have no right to an opinion that has absolutely NOTHING to do with how much more work a tandem jump with a heavier passenger is. I have never once said it isn't more work. I merely stated that charging someone more money for the exact same product based on their physical attributes is discrimination, and it stinks to high heaven. Feel free to continue discriminating because you make more money doing so. It's your right.


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 2, 2012, 6:00 AM
Post #48 of 171 (1450 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

you know how is it is much enjoyable it is to pack velo 90 vs saber 190???

it is same thing. so therefore we charge one little more.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 2, 2012, 6:15 AM
Post #49 of 171 (1441 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
charging someone more money for the exact same product based on their physical attributes is discrimination

It's not the exact same product. A bigger tandem pax equates to a higher usage of finite resources, such as drouges, canopies, line sets, and instructor strength/energy.

Fall rates between tandems can be drasitcally different based on the weight of the pax. Wear and tear on the gear is higher in those cases, and that needs to be accounted for.

The amount of physical effort it takes to manuver a larger pax in the plane, and fly/flare the canopy is significantly higher, and needs to be accoutned for.

There's no 'discrimination' at play. This is an 'at will' recreational activity, and the participants to do of their own accord with the terms clearly laid out beforehand. This isn't health care or public transportation, if a passenger doesn't like the terms, they don't have to jump.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 2, 2012, 6:33 AM
Post #50 of 171 (1432 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

So why does someone who weighs 90lbs pay less?

And who has calculated the actuall difference of the cost of wear and tear on the gear? And how many thousands of percent of markup ate you making on that wear and tear per jump?

Sure. It costs a different amount to treat people equal. Not debating that. It should be absorbed is what I'm saying. I've seen it absorbed by a small market Cessna drop one without putting them under. And the TI's didn't bitch about it either. Only time I've seen a TI bitch about taking a certain size passenger is a 140lb girl taking a 100lb passenger in winds. Or a 225lb instructor coming into the rotation with a 200lb passenger. Legitimate reasons for concern.

Charge what you want. IMO TI's and DZO's should put of their big girl panties. Many agree with me. Although no one here seems to want to.


diablopilot  (D License)

May 2, 2012, 6:41 AM
Post #51 of 171 (1863 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've been present for the operations of thousands of tandem jumps.

I've DONE thousands, er 7,000.


In reply to:
I've been in a Cessna 182 hundreds of times with tandem pairs.

Yeah, me too.

In reply to:
I have packed probably close to a thousand tandem rigs and probably as many sport rigs.

Yeah, 2,000+


In reply to:
I've done 5 tandem jumps as a passenger.

Yeah, 57.

In reply to:
You are absolutely correct, I have absolutely NO CLUE because I have never ridden the back of a tandem passenger and have no right to an opinion that has absolutely NOTHING to do with how much more work a tandem jump with a heavier passenger is. I have never once said it isn't more work. I merely stated that charging someone more money for the exact same product based on their physical attributes is discrimination, and it stinks to high heaven. Feel free to continue discriminating because you make more money doing so. It's your right.

Point 1. You're welcome to your opinion.

Point 2. I'm welcome to mine.

Point 3. You invite me to express my opinion when you imply that people are dirtbags for charging more for more work.

Point 4. If you find a measuring tape for me, we can finish this dick measuring competition.


linebckr83  (D 30571)

May 2, 2012, 6:57 AM
Post #52 of 171 (1858 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Packing 40 tandem rigs in a day is sure as hell harder work than doing 15 tandem jumps.

You said you have a thousand tandem pack jobs right? I have close to 3 times that, all before I became a TI. I know what its like to pack tandem rigs all day. I also know what its like to jump with tandem students all day.

The most I've done is 10 tandems in a day, and I can assure you that on a hot humid day like it usually is here, that is considerably more work than packing parachutes. 15 would be even worse. Try not to make comparisons when you haven't experienced both sides.


Premier Remster  (C License)

May 2, 2012, 7:39 AM
Post #53 of 171 (1848 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Point 4. If you find a measuring tape for me, we can finish this dick measuring competition.

I have just the right tool for you JP!
http://tinyurl.com/7buokph


normiss  (D 28356)

May 2, 2012, 7:56 AM
Post #54 of 171 (1841 views)
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Re: [Remster] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

No pinch?


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 2, 2012, 8:04 AM
Post #55 of 171 (1838 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dick measuring contests are about ego. I'm really not sure where my ego came into it. I just threw a few numbers out there to try and point out that my experience is not completely baseless.

Alas, I digress. I know fuck all. I bow down to you sky gods. Enjoy your extra $10 or whatever.

I almost forgot that every thread on this fucking website is a dick measuring contest.

I hold my ground that charging someone who is 195lbs and someone who is 225lbs a different price for a tandem jump is tasteless.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

May 2, 2012, 8:06 AM
Post #56 of 171 (1838 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is no safer way for a student to make a jump than tandem... There is no more dangerous way for an instructor to make a jump.
Not sure that is true Ron. If I am not doing a tandem I am likely going big on my landing; probably more dangerous than my next tandem.


Ron

May 2, 2012, 8:24 AM
Post #57 of 171 (1828 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not sure that is true Ron. If I am not doing a tandem I am likely going big on my landing; probably more dangerous than my next tandem.

OK, it should of read:

There is no safer way for a student to make a jump than tandem... There is no more dangerous way for an instructor to make an *instructional* jump.


Ron

May 2, 2012, 8:39 AM
Post #58 of 171 (1824 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

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I'm really not sure where my ego came into it.

It came into it because you refuse to admit you do not have the relevant experience related to this subject.

Quote:
I just threw a few numbers out there to try and point out that my experience is not completely baseless.

How many jumps do you have as a TI?
How many jumps do you have as a TI with 200#+ students?

If the answer to both is ZERO, then you have no experience that is relevant.

The same goes with you claiming that 15 TI jumps is easier than packing 40 rigs. Since you have ZERO TI jumps, you just do not have the basis to make that call.

Quote:
I almost forgot that every thread on this fucking website is a dick measuring contest.

It most often becomes that when a person has strong opinions but no relevant data to back them up but still thinks they should be considered the final word anyway.

Quote:
I hold my ground that charging someone who is 195lbs and someone who is 225lbs a different price for a tandem jump is tasteless.

You have the right to that opinion, but you need to admit that you don't have the first clue how much more difficult a 225 pounder is than a 100 pound student.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 2, 2012, 9:27 AM
Post #59 of 171 (1817 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

^This.


theonlyski  (D License)

May 2, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #60 of 171 (1813 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have the right to that opinion, but you need to admit that you don't have the first clue how much more difficult a 225 pounder is than a 100 pound student.

At least they're less likely to try to kill you and they're stable!


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 2, 2012, 10:42 AM
Post #61 of 171 (1790 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I will admit that I do not know how much harder to do a tandem with a 100lber than it is a 225lber. This much I give you. I have zero experience doing tandems. I do however get knowledge and opinions about skydiving related things from people who do. Real people, not just ones on the Internet. I have had this discussion with tandem instructors before in the flesh. It was mulled over at the drop zone and dismissed almost unanimously.

However. Once again. I NEVER said it wasn't harder. Not once. I said I felt it was wrong to charge extra. Seems like those who do not share my opinion (which is fine) are the ones who feel their ego as a sky god TI is in question. It is not. I test your morals not your ego, if you cannot discuss one without the other than that's your issue. Not mine.

I did say that it is harder to pack 40 tandems than it is to do 15 tandems. That comes from second hand information I got at 10:00pm with tandem instructors who have been packers standing around in the hangar on their 3rd beer while I finished up the half dozen or so pack jobs left after the last load.


(This post was edited by packerboy on May 2, 2012, 10:58 AM)


Ron

May 2, 2012, 11:34 AM
Post #62 of 171 (1778 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Seems like those who do not share my opinion (which is fine) are the ones who feel their ego as a sky god TI is in question. It is not. I test your morals not your ego, if you cannot discuss one without the other than that's your issue. Not mine.

Comments like that is why it becomes a dick measuring contest. You admit you have no idea how hard it is, yet you insult anyone that dares not agree with you.

Quote:
I NEVER said it wasn't harder. Not once. I said I felt it was wrong to charge extra.

And if I admitted that it might be harder to pack a tandem than a sport rig, but that you were morally wrong for charging more for a tandem just because you are robbing money from the tandem passengers and penalizing them for not being able to jump by themselves.... How much credibility would you give me?

Your morals are bankrupt.... You charge more for a tandem packjob knowing that it is the only way most people will ever get to jump... It is simple highway robbery. You should only charge what you would charge a solo jumper to pack the parachute.... Degree of difficulty and time it takes does not matter, all that matters is your selfish desire to make more money at the expense of tandem students who are not able to jump by themselves.

This sound foolish? Well, it is the SAME type of logic you are trying to use on TI's that do not agree with you.

Like it or not... More work should get more pay. It is more work to pack a tandem, you should get paid more. It is more work to jump with a big guy and the TI should get paid for that as well. Also, bigger people DO put more wear on gear and the owners of that gear should be compensated for it.

I know the DZ in question. I asked them why they charge more and the answers they gave me were:

1. They are more work for the TI
2. They put more wear on the gear
3. They have a higher risk of injury.

In fact they had data that showed that almost every tandem that was hurt out there was over a certain weight (I don't recall that weight). And due to that, they stopped taking people over that weight. Incidents dropped after that choice. Now, you may bash them for being insensitive for not taking big people.... But that is their RIGHT as a business owner.

But to make this all fair.... You start only charging normal solo rates for packing tandems and I will not take the fatty tax. In fact, you pick the time period and during that entire time we will BOTH send the difference to the charity of YOUR choice... Deal?


(This post was edited by Ron on May 2, 2012, 11:48 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

May 2, 2012, 12:07 PM
Post #63 of 171 (1768 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Boom!


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 2, 2012, 12:34 PM
Post #64 of 171 (1755 views)
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Re: [linebckr83] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've done both, doing tandems all day and packing all day.

and doing tandem all day is much easier than packing all day.

If doing tandem all day is harder on your body vs packing all day, you are doing it wrong.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 2, 2012, 12:44 PM
Post #65 of 171 (1750 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

or just the wrong rig?
Angelic


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 2, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #66 of 171 (1744 views)
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Re: [normiss] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

with tandems, max you can do is 3 in an hour, given that it goes up to 12.5.

with packing, max you can pack is 12 to 15 sport rig and 8-10 tandems.

at max pace all day long, unpacking tandem parachute is much easier than packing tandem parachute. IMO. You just sit there for 20 min and get out,throw drouge, pull drogue release, flair land, drop your gear and done.

while when the ti's get down from 20 min of sitting, your packer have just finished packing 3rd tandem rig.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on May 2, 2012, 12:54 PM)


dorbie

May 2, 2012, 1:04 PM
Post #67 of 171 (1732 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not fat or rotund, just heavy...

...that coupled with the fact that I've never been a very flexible person (in terms of legs, stretching, arms, etc).

In reply to:

So...you're overweight & out of shape.

...but then again,~

The harness was too tight, the helmet too small, the goggles too loose, the TM too short, the altitude to little -Shocked

~Lucky ya survived at all! WinkSly
For a student injured on his first tandem his attitude is pretty good I'd say.


(This post was edited by dorbie on May 2, 2012, 1:06 PM)


normiss  (D 28356)

May 2, 2012, 1:07 PM
Post #68 of 171 (1726 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Then I need to stop doing 4 an hour and find this magical DZ with 20 minute sit down cycles.
I spend mine with paperwork from previous jump and gearing up / training next tandem.

I also cannot slow down my pace at the end of the day and finish up after the aircraft shuts down.

Not to say packers aren't hard workers, I realize they are.
Back to back tandems all day is no day in the park either.


Austintxflight

May 2, 2012, 1:34 PM
Post #69 of 171 (1722 views)
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Re: [normiss] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

So going back to the OP, one thing to think about, if you're a little bigger and had some dexterity problems, landing solo in perfect conditions might be easier, but since you have some physical limitations that may decrease your ability to run out a landing or recover. So bottom line, the better shape and health you are in, will only be a positive for skydiving.

Secondly, you don't want to land in water, its really not that great. Being over water its tough to gauge height because the water is so uniform, (also the same over alot of sand like in a desert.) Once you get in the water, you either have to disconnect your rig, or swim out of it, not getting caught on lines or coming up for air under the fabric, then either leave your thousands of dollars worth of gear behind as you swim to safety or attempt to pull it ashore, and now your nice 220 SQ ft canopy is completely filled with water and weighs 5 times as much.

Once you get out of the water, you have possible electronics, or altimeters that could be water damaged, and you probably are not going to get another jump in that day on your gear. Or you can work to learn how to land better so you can land on terra firma and be on the next load with your friends.


Mickochet  (D 26656)

May 2, 2012, 2:09 PM
Post #70 of 171 (1709 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

You obviously have no business experience. If you don't want to work at a dropzone that charges more money for a tandem based on weight then by all means don't. You are trying to say that it is discrimination when it is not that at all. Tandem gear is very expensive. Think about it this way. If you have a tandem rig that is only used for petite students and another tandem rig that is only used for the larger customers. Which one do you honestly think will need replacing sooner? At our dropzone the extra fee that the overweight customer is charged is divided equally between the T/I and the gear fund.


(This post was edited by Mickochet on May 2, 2012, 2:11 PM)


linebckr83  (D 30571)

May 2, 2012, 2:35 PM
Post #71 of 171 (1693 views)
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Re: [normiss] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Then I need to stop doing 4 an hour and find this magical DZ with 20 minute sit down cycles.
I spend mine with paperwork from previous jump and gearing up / training next tandem.

I also cannot slow down my pace at the end of the day and finish up after the aircraft shuts down.

Not to say packers aren't hard workers, I realize they are.
Back to back tandems all day is no day in the park either.

Same way out here. Land, nice long walk back to the hangar due to airport construction preventing a close landing, drop the rig and immediately start on the next groups paperwork/training, go edit videos, finish up with the prior group, head to the plane. The only time I do sit is in the plane, but being a 182 and being 6'2'' and Martin at 6'7" and 2 students its never a really comfortable ride up.

I remember the days packing tandems all day. It sucked too I remember. But besides my fingertips I never really hurt anywhere and had enough energy to go out on the town later. Maybe I'm just getting older Pirate but after a day of tandem jumps I am hurting all over, especially the legs, and want nothing more than to go to bed. Blush

The pay is definitely better upacking tandem rigs as opposed to packing them though! In all seriousness, I'm sure it has a lot to do with someone's physical level and experience doing either job. I doubt the OP wanted to read a debate on who works harder though.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 2, 2012, 2:51 PM
Post #72 of 171 (1681 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

:
Quote
Seems like those who do not share my opinion (which is fine) are the ones who feel their ego as a sky god TI is in question. It is not. I test your morals not your ego, if you cannot discuss one without the other than that's your issue. Not mine.

Comments like that is why it becomes a dick measuring contest. You admit you have no idea how hard it is, yet you insult anyone that dares not agree with you.

I probably didn't word that right. What I meant is that the certain people who are the ones who have chosen to argue my point in this here forum seem to be the same ones who have been swinging their inflated sky god ego around here for as long as I can remember. I certainly did not mean that they are egotistical BECAUSE they disagree with my theory.


Actually, the dick measuring contest began when I was told that I have zero experience and I have no idea what I am talking about therefore my opinion holds no weight.

It isn't my comment that made it a dick measuring contest It was this one from diablpilot:


In Reply To
I'm not interested in becoming a tandem instructor.

Then your comments on the matter mean exactly shit.


I can't even really think of a more condescending remark. When I replied to this by stating that while I haven't personally done tandems, I didn't just start going to the dropzone last week. I've been around the dropzone for a little while and have eyes and ears. I don't need to whack down 7000 trees to understand that logging is hard work. And for the umpteenth time, I never said that doing heavy tandems isn't harder. My post about my experience was met by a post by someone who says well I'VE done this, and I'VE done this, and I'VE done this.. so your experience is shit and doesn't matter.

I didn't start the dick swinging contest. I just have the intelligence to see through the subtle ad hominem attack and chose to reply with a blunt, in your face "skygod" attack back. I admit that my response had nothing to do with the actual argument. But if some douchebag is going to try and refuse my argument by shoving his big internet dick down my throat, I certainly retain the right to spit it out as opposed to crawling into a corner and sucking on it.

I'll take the few positive responses I got for little support from those who smartly chose not to get involved in the whole trolling incident that I have regretfully been a part of and move on. But for what it's worth, when it comes to me and how much I do actually know ->ron, diablo, you don't know what you don't know.. right? I have never done tandems so I guess you know that I'm deaf and blind. I surprised your heads fit in the same room as the keyboard you spew your egotistical shit onto.

I will let it go now. There's really no point in trying to argue equality to someone who thinks the little box on the side which has bigger numbers on it makes him genetically superior.

I will take home some arguments from others who I believe have softened my opinion on the matter by throwing out some logical argument instead of their dick. Still haven't been pushed over the fence though.

Sorry for the poor formatting, most of these posts were from my phone.


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 2, 2012, 3:14 PM
Post #73 of 171 (1671 views)
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Re: [normiss] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

you sit while you go up the alititude, and you sit in the harness.

even back to back how do you manage to do 4 in an hour???
unless you've got king air.
I would love to do back to back all day.

so typical 10 hour work day in summer you make 40 jumps??


(This post was edited by stayhigh on May 2, 2012, 3:18 PM)


Ron

May 2, 2012, 3:15 PM
Post #74 of 171 (1670 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I probably didn't word that right. What I meant is that the certain people who are the ones who have chosen to argue my point in this here forum seem to be the same ones who have been swinging their inflated sky god ego around here for as long as I can remember. I certainly did not mean that they are egotistical BECAUSE they disagree with my theory.

And I did word mine correctly... It is comments like yours above which make it a dick measuring contest. You have ZERO knowledge about the topic yet expect to be taken as the lord almighty when you speak your opinion?

Quote:
I can't even really think of a more condescending remark.

Really? How about his one?
"swinging their inflated sky god ego around here for as long as I can remember"

Quote:
And for the umpteenth time, I never said that doing heavy tandems isn't harder.

Yet you have tried to claim that packing is harder.... Seeing that you have no relevant experience in one of the two.... Your opinion is not backed by data other than second hand.

So, if I said: "Packing a tandem is simple, even though I have never done it myself, hell I have seen children do it" You would be 100% correct to call me out on that.

Quote:
I didn't start the dick swinging contest.

Um...Yeah, ya did. I'll even show you where.
"all I could think about was the fact that some dropzones still charge a "fat tax". Disgusting. If you are too big to jump, you are too big. If you are not too big to jump you should be treated just like everyone else, even if it takes a little more effort to do so. I can't get over the greediness of that..."

This thread had NOTHING to do with the "fat tax" till you went off on your rant. You insulted anyone that does not agree with your views as "greedy" and that they "disgust" you.

So yes by the very definition, you started the dick swinging.

Quote:
I'll take the few positive responses I got for little support from those who smartly chose not to get involved in the whole trolling incident that I have regretfully been a part of and move on

Hell, you STARTED it with the above quote. This thread had NOTHING to do with the fat tax till you spewed your rant all over it.

Quote:
I have never done tandems so I guess you know that I'm deaf and blind.

No, we have said you have no idea what it takes to do a tandem and no idea how much more it takes to do a heavy tandem.... and that is true. Quit trying to make yourself an innocent victim.

Quote:
I surprised your heads fit in the same room as the keyboard you spew your egotistical shit onto.

One big difference between us..... I have not tried to call you names. I have not tried to belittle your work , claiming to know more than you. I have not said you have bad morals (Well, in sarcasm to make a point).

Quote:
There's really no point in trying to argue equality to someone who thinks the little box on the side which has bigger numbers on it makes him genetically superior.

I doubt you will let it go. You have not let a lack of knowledge about a topic stop you yet.


diablopilot  (D License)

May 2, 2012, 6:00 PM
Post #75 of 171 (1627 views)
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Re: [Remster] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Point 4. If you find a measuring tape for me, we can finish this dick measuring competition.

I have just the right tool for you JP!
http://tinyurl.com/7buokph

You know I love you.

Just like in prison.


diablopilot  (D License)

May 2, 2012, 6:08 PM
Post #76 of 171 (1418 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
with tandems, max you can do is 3 in an hour, given that it goes up to 12.5.

with packing, max you can pack is 12 to 15 sport rig and 8-10 tandems.

at max pace all day long, unpacking tandem parachute is much easier than packing tandem parachute. IMO. You just sit there for 20 min and get out,throw drouge, pull drogue release, flair land, drop your gear and done.

while when the ti's get down from 20 min of sitting, your packer have just finished packing 3rd tandem rig.

You're doing it wrong.

I land from a tandem, debrief them and fill out their log book, greet my next student, suit and harness them and train them for the jump. Then I load them on the 100 degree non air conditioned airplane, and ride up to 9,000 feet while I scarf a snack or drink a gatorade, hook them up, train them again, shelp them to the door, exit, do turns, track, good with the camera flyer, and get them to pull. I them instruct them for the next 5 to 8 minutes on canopy control, do some turns, practice landings and talk them through a landing which they assist with. I then shelp the gear in while chit chatting and upselling the skydiving program and second training tandem, drop off the gear ungear them and debrief then and fill out their log book greet my next student, suit and harness them and train them for the jump. Then I load them on the 100 degree non air condit......

Yep. Just sitting around doing nothing for 20 minutes....


diablopilot  (D License)

May 2, 2012, 6:12 PM
Post #77 of 171 (1417 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I can't even really think of a more condescending remark.

I can. It was when you implied that anyone who charged extra for a heavy tandem was morally bankrupt for doing so when you have never been in their shoes. No one ever discounted your experience in the sport, simply that you had none in the area you were commenting on.


SansSuit  (D 21554)

May 2, 2012, 7:27 PM
Post #78 of 171 (1399 views)
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Re: [BobMoore] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How big are mediocre sized people? I'm dyin' to know.
I believe they are just a bit smaller (or larger) than extra medium people. Wink


DARK  (B 31685)

May 2, 2012, 8:50 PM
Post #79 of 171 (1380 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

So everyone realises this is a troll right?

Quote:
I mean it doesn't help matters that I was both taller and heavier than my instructor by a significant amount...

Quote:
not a PLC (I didn't even know what that term was until much later when I read the SIM about types of landing techniques)
Quote:
There was a girl beside me doing tandem with another instructor and she had a stand up landing and I felt really bad about myself.

Quote:
stand up landings at the DZ all the time that morning when I first drove in..... it doesn't seem that difficult at all....

Quote:
I work in IT but definitely not a geek.

Quote:
This is going to sound weird, but even though I purchased the packaged that included everything, I specifically told them to put away the cameras and that I didn't want the camera man. I didn't go there to make "memories", and I don't think the "first time" is any different than the nth time

Quote:
didn't want the annoying camera jumper to be distracting me from the already short free fall time

Quote:
Are there any water landing DZ for AFF? There is nothing safer than a soft water landing right?

Quote:
I understand that at higher altitudes water is not "soft" and the impact is same as hitting concrete

Quote:
Ever since watching Point Break as a kid that's something I always wanted to do. (yes, I know the skydiving portrayed in that movie is not realistic) I have no problem swimming and would not drown.

Quote:
but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do... and it is not even a real skydiving...

Quote:
You know what Jackie Robinson? If we had you on our baseball team it may just be a little bit harder to deal with the press, you know, what with you being black and all. And it might be a little bit harder to sell tickets because, you know, people really aren't that used to a black person around here. So we are just going to go ahead and take a little off your salary to compensate for the harder work that we are going to have to do... I mean.. it is going to be a little tougher for us.. Because, well, you just aint the same.

I cant believe you are equating a fat tax to racism.

Quote:
It costs a different amount to treat people equal. Not debating that. It should be absorbed is what I'm saying. I've seen it absorbed by a small market Cessna drop one without putting them under.

the smaller the dropzone the easier it would be to absorb tbh. its the large tandem factories, doing hundreds and hundreds of jumps a week, who have to buy new gear yearly and perform 100 jump checks on gear every couple of weeks and are constantly changing kill lines and drogues and linesets, that need to pay careful attention to these things.

edit; for what its worth and so that you can just discount my opinion without further thought I believe airlines should charge a fat tax so I definitely have no problem with dropzones doing it although if I owned my own place I probably wouldnt charge one myself.


(This post was edited by DARK on May 2, 2012, 8:55 PM)


prada

May 3, 2012, 1:06 AM
Post #80 of 171 (1358 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote:
I am only a beginner, but what I think is, there is no relevant connection between fall rate and landing/flaring.
Except may be that the faster you come down the better the flaring actually works.


Prada
Quote:
Someone should tell the swoopers that they are killing themselves diving at the ground for no reason!


Lol - somehow I think you know exactly what I was trying to explain to the guy with the sprained ankle...
:-)


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 3, 2012, 3:31 AM
Post #81 of 171 (1351 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

You were right about one thing Ron, I just couldn't let it go. I was going to, but that that big internet dick kept being shoved in my face.

Quote:
I land from a tandem, debrief them and fill out their log book, greet my next student, suit and harness them and train them for the jump. Then I load them on the 100 degree non air conditioned airplane, and ride up to 9,000 feet while I scarf a snack or drink a gatorade, hook them up, train them again, shelp them to the door, exit, do turns, track, good with the camera flyer, and get them to pull. I them instruct them for the next 5 to 8 minutes on canopy control, do some turns, practice landings and talk them through a landing which they assist with. I then shelp the gear in while chit chatting and upselling the skydiving program and second training tandem, drop off the gear ungear them and debrief then and fill out their log book greet my next student, suit and harness them and train them for the jump. Then I load them on the 100 degree non air condit......

I was going to type all that out, but I didn't feel the need because diablopilot already did. I knew all that. So what is left? I don't know how heavy the tandem rig is? Actually I do, because I carried them around on the ground a lot. I don't know what it it is like to move around in the plane with a student attached to you? Well I've been in the plane while it is being done and I have eyes and ears. It's really not that hard to imagine. I don't know how hard it is to flare with a student on you? Well I do know what it takes to flare some parachutes with some weight, so i can somewhat imagine the difference. Not withstanding, my TI did let me try to flare myself a couple times to see what it was like. So I have an idea. I'll assume that diablopilot just left all the gear checking and in flight handle checks out because he didn't feel like boring us with all the details. <--- that was a little humor to lighten the mood.

I have been in a job slinging 40lbs bags of chemicals around and dumping them into bins.. 75,000lbs of them in a shift by myself.

This "you have zero knowledge" thing is bullshit. I have a pretty fucking good idea of what it takes to do tandems. It's not rocket science. I just haven't done them. Get over yourself. I've never made a turkey dinner either, but I have a pretty good idea that it's a hell of a lot of work because I've seen my mom and wife do it a bunch of times. Never once said it was easy or that doing a 100lber is the same as doing a 250lber. You guys assumed that I'm an idiot and I know nothing and I must believe this to be true. If you can't understand how I actually do have an idea of how hard it is to do something without actually having to do it, then I guess our brains operate differently and I suppose we will just continue to chase our tail here.

Quote:
One big difference between us..... I have not tried to call you names. I have not tried to belittle your work , claiming to know more than you. I have not said you have bad morals (Well, in sarcasm to make a point).

A: I have never once tried to belittle your work
B: I have never once claimed to know more than you, I have just claimed to know more than ZERO.
C: If you are the one who decided it is OK to charge the fat tax, than yes. I do challenge your morals. That was my original point.

Quote:
Yet you have tried to claim that packing is harder.... Seeing that you have no relevant experience in one of the two.... Your opinion is not backed by data other than second hand.

I actually did a poll for my tandem instructor friends on my facebook account. Call it second hand, but I consider it better data than what you tell me, because I have no idea who the hell you are.

100% of them felt that packing all day is harder than doing tandems all day. Actually most of them said that doing tandems was WAY easier. Again, I've been around the dropzone enough. Done one, seen the other one done a lot. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. I bet doing tandems is harder than working manifest...

A couple of them felt that tandem instructors should get paid a little more for the harder work, however 0% of them felt that this should be passed on to the customer. And yes, a few of them have worked at DZ's that do charge customers for it.

1 of them said the bigger the better. More swoopage.

Quote:
This thread had NOTHING to do with the "fat tax" till you went off on your rant. You insulted anyone that does not agree with your views as "greedy" and that they "disgust" you.

My bad, should I have started a new thread. Greedy was probably a little offside because it isn't exactly a tonne of money, but discrimination does disgust me.

Quote:
I can't even really think of a more condescending remark.

Really? How about his one?
"swinging their inflated sky god ego around here for as long as I can remember"

condescending/&#716;knd&#601;&#712;sendiNG/
Adjective:

Acting in a way that betrays a feeling of patronizing superiority.
(of an action) Demonstrating such an attitude.

I never said that I was better than you or anyone else. I was merely stating (by using the term sky god, we all know what it means) that that is the attitude you demonstrate when you say I have done this and you haven't so you must have ZERO knowledge. I know what it takes to be a prep cook, yet I have never done it. I just worked in a restaurant long enough to know. And I have been around dropzone.com long enough to know who is a condescending "sky god" and who is not. I'm sure that diablopilot is intelligent enough to understand the irony of his own signature.

Quote:
Your morals are bankrupt.... You charge more for a tandem packjob knowing that it is the only way most people will ever get to jump... It is simple highway robbery. You should only charge what you would charge a solo jumper to pack the parachute.... Degree of difficulty and time it takes does not matter, all that matters is your selfish desire to make more money at the expense of tandem students who are not able to jump by themselves.

This sound foolish? Well, it is the SAME type of logic you are trying to use on TI's that do not agree with you.

Umm, no.

A single user rig brings $35 into the revenue stream of the dropzone.

A tandem rig brings $350 into the revenue stream of the dropzone.

Big difference. Two different products. Similar by nature, but different.

When you are doing a 150lb tandem, you are doing a tandem. When you are doing a 225lb tandem, you are still doing a tandem. If it's harder.. sure, let the DZ pay you a little more, fuck it I don't care. What I care about is passing that on to the customer.

Quote:
I know the DZ in question. I asked them why they charge more and the answers they gave me were:

1. They are more work for the TI
2. They put more wear on the gear
3. They have a higher risk of injury.

#'s 1 and 2 I didn't dispute.

#3 WTF? There is more of a chance somebody is going to get hurt, so we are just going to go ahead but charge you more money.

Really? Maybe I am stupid because It's not really complicated, but I still don't get it.



Moral of the story is that you are offering a product. You offer to person A for a different price than you offer it to person B because person B is well, lets just go ahead and call them fat.

Do what you want with compensating the TI's... but you are discriminating against the customer if you charge them for it. If you find that offensive to yourself. Well good.

I guess that's the way I intended it to sound.

Quote:
Quote
Point 4. If you find a measuring tape for me, we can finish this dick measuring competition.

I have just the right tool for you JP!
http://tinyurl.com/7buokph


Remster

That's funny. I like that guy.


(This post was edited by packerboy on May 3, 2012, 4:08 AM)


linebckr83  (D 30571)

May 3, 2012, 8:21 AM
Post #82 of 171 (1295 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some really good points you made there.

Out of curiosity, what aircraft do you have out there? Is it a busy dropzone, or more of the 182 type?

I know the majority of my fatigue comes from crawling around a 182 with a 50lb rig and a student. And the rest comes from doing all the "staff" stuff that some TI's at bigger dropzones don't usually have to do since there are other people hired to do it.

So like the tandem packers out here, I basically don't stop moving from sunrise to sunset. Can we just call it a washout? Cool

In your defense, even though a big (read fat) person is harder to deal with in every aspect of the jump, from the climb to landing, I have always felt that it is a small price to pay to get the opportunity to take the cute 100lb blonde girl who keeps shooting me a look Laugh That makes the big ones worth it.


Abedy  (D 10153)

May 3, 2012, 8:24 AM
Post #83 of 171 (1294 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I land from a tandem, debrief them...

+1! CoolWink


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 3, 2012, 9:23 AM
Post #84 of 171 (1274 views)
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Re: [linebckr83] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Was 182/206 DZ for the most part up until they got a King Air last year...


Ron

May 3, 2012, 9:47 AM
Post #85 of 171 (1270 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Umm, no.

Uh, yeah,

Quote:
A single user rig brings $35 into the revenue stream of the dropzone.

A tandem rig brings $350 into the revenue stream of the dropzone.

Big difference. Two different products. Similar by nature, but different.

You are using ONE data point, and even that data point is flawed. So the only thing that matters is the amount of money the DZ gets? Doesn't that sound even worse since your only concern is money?

Guess what? The DZ makes more when they charge the fat tax as well... Using your own logic, then it is fine.

Quote:
This "you have zero knowledge" thing is bullshit. I have a pretty fucking good idea of what it takes to do tandems.

"Pretty fucking good" != to actual knowledge.

So if I claimed that since I have seen 20 sport packjobs in a day that I am experienced enough to know what packing 20 tandems is like... You would accept that? And if I then made the claim that packing 20 tandems is not nearly as difficult as say... cleaning a toilet, you would accept my "knowledge" of the subject?

I call BS.

Quote:
It's not rocket science. I just haven't done them. Get over yourself.

And that sentence speaks your attitude perfectly. You have not done it, but you THINK you know more than people who have, and if people do not agree with you, you insult them.

Again: One big difference between us..... I have not tried to call you names. I have not tried to belittle your work , claiming to know more than you. I have not said you have bad morals.

Quote:
I never said that I was better than you or anyone else. I was merely stating (by using the term sky god, we all know what it means) that that is the attitude you demonstrate when you say I have done this and you haven't so you must have ZERO knowledge.


Well the real definition of skygod is claiming you know more than you do.

Quote:
Moral of the story is that you are offering a product. You offer to person A for a different price than you offer it to person B because person B is well, lets just go ahead and call them fat.

And that is really simple...And the same reason you charge more for a tandem packjob. It is more work.

But again, I'll make the offer. YOU pick the time period and we BOTH will contribute to the charity of YOUR choice the difference between a tandem/sport packjob you do and a big/normal tandem jump that I do... Deal?

Wanna make it a year?


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 3, 2012, 10:23 AM
Post #86 of 171 (1257 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

We are seemingly deadlocked with semantics. You've had pretty good rebuttals to this point, but none than I can really agree with, and it's just starting to get repetitive and boring.

I'll call it discrimination, you call it what you want. I'll take your points into consideration and not really change my opinion. You can call me a moron subtly without actually calling me a moron so you can say you've never called me moron and we just go see who can jump more cars on their skateboard and call it a day? That way we won't have to show Remster that not every dick can be measured with a micrometer. He doesn't need to know what he doesn't know. :)

Insert diablopilots signature line here--><---


(This post was edited by packerboy on May 3, 2012, 10:27 AM)


Ron

May 3, 2012, 10:46 AM
Post #87 of 171 (1247 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You can call me a moron subtly without actually calling me a moron so you can say you've never called me moron

Again unlike you, I have never called you a name, nor even hinted at it. I have simply said that logic dictates that you cannot be truly knowledgeable about something you have not done or experienced. I have asked you to admit that, which you have refused to do.

For you to claim that a bigger person is not more work enough to warrant a larger compensation would be the same level of argument if I claimed that a tandem packjob is not anymore difficult and therefore not worth the extra pay.

But again, I'll make the offer. YOU pick the time period and we BOTH will contribute to the charity of YOUR choice the difference between every tandem/sport packjob you do and a big/normal tandem jump that I do... Deal?

Wanna make it a year?



packerboy  (C 34282)

May 3, 2012, 12:51 PM
Post #88 of 171 (1214 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm quite prepared to make that deal. How's this one?


http://www.childhoodobesityfoundation.ca/

Here's how you make your donations. Address to send the cheque is at the bottom.

http://www.childhoodobesityfoundation.ca/donations


(This post was edited by packerboy on May 3, 2012, 3:33 PM)


mx19  (D License)

May 3, 2012, 2:39 PM
Post #89 of 171 (1183 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

were you charged extra to do a tandem when you started? is that what all this is about?

in my eyes the customer knows that they are paying more because they are fat... if they dont like it go to another dz (no one is making them jump there) or hit the gym, its really that easy!

Fwiw i havent worked at a dz that charges extra for people over the limit but wouldnt have any morality issues doing so.


Ron

May 3, 2012, 2:47 PM
Post #90 of 171 (1179 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Perfect, so how long of a period?


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 3, 2012, 2:52 PM
Post #91 of 171 (1171 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

1 yr is fine.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 3, 2012, 3:13 PM
Post #92 of 171 (1164 views)
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Re: [mx19] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
were you charged extra to do a tandem when you started? is that what all this is about?

in my eyes the customer knows that they are paying more because they are fat... if they dont like it go to another dz (no one is making them jump there) or hit the gym, its really that easy!

Fwiw i havent worked at a dz that charges extra for people over the limit but wouldnt have any morality issues doing so.

I'll kill a few birds with this stone.

No I was not. The picture in my profile is me. I am clearly "mediocre" sized.

Black people knew they where sitting at the back of the bus because they were black too. Yes i did. I just compared it with racism again, because I feel that discrimination is discrimination.

I know when I went to do my first tandem they could've robbed me blind with extra fees, I was there and I wanted to do it bad. Thank god I didn't call Skyride. I'd still be paying off the loan.

Sometimes losing weight is really not THAT easy, although I cannot speak from experience because I'm not fat. Oh shit, I've gone and done it again.. ZERO knowledge to make that last comment. My take on losing weight means shit. My bad. Maybe if the tandem instructors can't handle the extra weight THEY should hit the gym.


(This post was edited by packerboy on May 3, 2012, 3:32 PM)


Ron

May 3, 2012, 5:07 PM
Post #93 of 171 (1128 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok so for 1 year:

I will forward any 'fat tax' payment and you will forward the difference between a sport pack and a tandem pack for every tandem pack you do?

Of course this depends on me still doing tandems (which I do) and you still packing them. Do you?


Austintxflight

May 3, 2012, 5:24 PM
Post #94 of 171 (1122 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

can we extend the fat tax argument to the tunnel. How about we weigh everyone and charge per pound multiplied by wind speed. So a fat guy flying on his belly might be the same cost per minute as a little girl doing head down.

Its obvious that people are not square pegs and each person may require more or less work than another and cause more wear and tear on equipment than others. I'm sure TI's have had tandem students who took alot more work than average students but had nothing to do with weight.

All jobs that have heavy customer service aspect have fluid amounts of work per customer. How you segment these populations and service them in terms of pricing is up to the DZ in this case to determine what makes the most financial sense while keeping customers happy. Also as with the OP there comes a safety level when someones weight or lack of mobility becomes an injury concern.

I believe an easy solution is to just hold firm to a max weight which you will not take a tandem customer and everything else is the same price.'

I do believe there is a difference in telling them they are too fat or heavy to jump vs saying they are too black or chinese or too gay to jump. Weight and fitness level have a definite effect on safety while those other things do not.


bochen280

May 3, 2012, 5:27 PM
Post #95 of 171 (1122 views)
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Re: [DARK] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So everyone realises this is a troll right?

Quote:
I mean it doesn't help matters that I was both taller and heavier than my instructor by a significant amount...

Quote:
not a PLC (I didn't even know what that term was until much later when I read the SIM about types of landing techniques)
Quote:
There was a girl beside me doing tandem with another instructor and she had a stand up landing and I felt really bad about myself.

Quote:
stand up landings at the DZ all the time that morning when I first drove in..... it doesn't seem that difficult at all....

Quote:
I work in IT but definitely not a geek.

Quote:
This is going to sound weird, but even though I purchased the packaged that included everything, I specifically told them to put away the cameras and that I didn't want the camera man. I didn't go there to make "memories", and I don't think the "first time" is any different than the nth time

Quote:
didn't want the annoying camera jumper to be distracting me from the already short free fall time

Quote:
Are there any water landing DZ for AFF? There is nothing safer than a soft water landing right?

Quote:
I understand that at higher altitudes water is not "soft" and the impact is same as hitting concrete

Quote:
Ever since watching Point Break as a kid that's something I always wanted to do. (yes, I know the skydiving portrayed in that movie is not realistic) I have no problem swimming and would not drown.

Quote:
but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do... and it is not even a real skydiving...

Quote:
You know what Jackie Robinson? If we had you on our baseball team it may just be a little bit harder to deal with the press, you know, what with you being black and all. And it might be a little bit harder to sell tickets because, you know, people really aren't that used to a black person around here. So we are just going to go ahead and take a little off your salary to compensate for the harder work that we are going to have to do... I mean.. it is going to be a little tougher for us.. Because, well, you just aint the same.

I cant believe you are equating a fat tax to racism.

Quote:
It costs a different amount to treat people equal. Not debating that. It should be absorbed is what I'm saying. I've seen it absorbed by a small market Cessna drop one without putting them under.

the smaller the dropzone the easier it would be to absorb tbh. its the large tandem factories, doing hundreds and hundreds of jumps a week, who have to buy new gear yearly and perform 100 jump checks on gear every couple of weeks and are constantly changing kill lines and drogues and linesets, that need to pay careful attention to these things.

edit; for what its worth and so that you can just discount my opinion without further thought I believe airlines should charge a fat tax so I definitely have no problem with dropzones doing it although if I owned my own place I probably wouldnt charge one myself.

I'm not sure why you think I'm a troll. All I can say is everything I have written is the truth (see att below) and if you don't believe me, well, what can I say... sometimes reality is stranger than fiction.

Also, some here have mistakenly thought I was charged a "fat tax"... this is incorrect. I stated very clearly in my original post that I was NOT charged a fat tax because I was NOT over the weight limit. I only mentioned the so-called "fat tax" in passing because this was my first experience with skydiving/tandem/etc and thought it was something novel and new to me. But my intent was not to complain about the extra fee, in any case no extra fee was incurred anyway.

I paid $409 for the tandem VIP package. I simply wanted a good skydiving experience and could care less (and thus avoided) the camera dude, the DVD disc of video and still shots, or the bottle of wine, etc... I had always wanted to go skydiving and simply never "got to it"... I realize that is my fault that I procrastinated in life, not the DZ's nor TI/TM's. This was a last minute thing and I was just thankful that they could get me up in the air at all... so I was more than happy to pay whatever cost. Ideally I would have liked a solo "real" skydiving experience, but due to the way business is ran the DZ only offers that on certain days of the weekend and even then arrangements would probably have to have been made in advance... thus, my only option was a tandem. So I settled for less than what I wanted. To me, the best part about skydiving is the free-fall experience. I could personally care less about the dingy little airplane with no seats and the parachute almost choking me alive on opening... or the bad landing and broken ankle for that matter... or the whole sub-"culture" that revolves around the sport. It is the activity itself that I love, not the regulation, the FAA, the USPA, the DZs, the other jumpers or the so called camaraderie.

The purpose of this post was to get perspective from more experienced jumpers what solo landing is like compared to tandem, not to "troll".


(images too large to attach to this site, I uploaded png pics to Amazon servers)

http://bochen280.s3.amazonaws.com/skydiving/001.PNG

http://bochen280.s3.amazonaws.com/skydiving/002.png

http://bochen280.s3.amazonaws.com/skydiving/003.png


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 3, 2012, 5:41 PM)


Ron

May 3, 2012, 6:02 PM
Post #96 of 171 (1106 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

CA Dave is a super qualified instructor.

Havi g worked at SDD for 3 years I can tell you that in all my 19 years of skydiving you would be very hard pressed to find a more professional DZ. the student program there is the best I have ever worked in short of the military.

And the simple answer to your question is: No and yes.

No, you are just as likely to get hurt on a solo jump and maybe more likey to get hurt... My wife broke her ankle with something like 70 jumps. You just do not have the depth perception and timing yet... This is why we would put you on really big canopies that are more forgiving.

But, the fact of 4 legs trying to land at once... Well, that complicates things as well.

I'd bet that if you compared the number of tandem jumps to the number of solo student jumps.... You would find less broken tandem students


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 3, 2012, 6:14 PM
Post #97 of 171 (1101 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
can we extend the fat tax argument to the tunnel. How about we weigh everyone and charge per pound multiplied by wind speed. So a fat guy flying on his belly might be the same cost per minute as a little girl doing head down.

Its obvious that people are not square pegs and each person may require more or less work than another and cause more wear and tear on equipment than others. I'm sure TI's have had tandem students who took alot more work than average students but had nothing to do with weight.

All jobs that have heavy customer service aspect have fluid amounts of work per customer. How you segment these populations and service them in terms of pricing is up to the DZ in this case to determine what makes the most financial sense while keeping customers happy. Also as with the OP there comes a safety level when someones weight or lack of mobility becomes an injury concern.

I believe an easy solution is to just hold firm to a max weight which you will not take a tandem customer and everything else is the same price.'

I do believe there is a difference in telling them they are too fat or heavy to jump vs saying they are too black or chinese or too gay to jump. Weight and fitness level have a definite effect on safety while those other things do not.

Absolutely there is a difference when safety is involved. First and foremost every tandem instructor should reserve the right to refuse should they not feel that it is in the best interest of safety to go. Whether it is a student that is too large, out of shape, small in winds, drunk, or if the instructor is just plain too tired to perform at the level necessary or any other reason that the instructor feels that it is not safe.

Telling someone that they are too fat to safely jump is one thing. Telling them that they are too fat to pay the same price as the guy standing beside them IMO is the same as telling them they are too black, chinese or gay.

To the OP, I understand you were not charged this tax and I apologize for hijacking this thread. Hopefully you pick yourself up, and if you are in good shape great, if not , get in shape and come back. Ultimately the number one focus of any business should be treating your customers with respect and equality as a human being and doing what it takes to retain their future business. Hopefully your next DZ experience won't end up with a broken something.

IMO, and my disclaimer is that I am not an instructor. However I did work for one of the pioneers of the sport who invented IAD (Instructor Assisted Deployment, allegedly) as one of the safest mainstream training method for solo first time jumpers. He trains only by doing tandems first now. Tandem is still the way to go until you get accustomed to what your mind is going to go through when you are taken out of your element and put in a position where you are exiting an aircraft in flight. Everyone's response to this sort of sensory shock is different and you honestly don't know what it is going to be until you experience it. it is best to have someone with you that really knows what the hell they are doing and has their full wits about them in case something goes wrong. Because it can, and it sometimes does. Get a couple of those out of the way and you are on your way. 2 or 3 tandems in the grand scheme of things if you are going to become a jumper and do hundreds or thousands of jumps is really going to be a drop in the bucket and you will be glad to have done them. There are other roads to go down, but I think even Ron and Diablopilot would agree with me that tandem is the best. I'm sure they would disagree that it is gay too. Maybe.. I don't know what I don't know you know?

I'm sure either one of these dudes that I have been arguing with here would be a great choice as a tandem instructor. That have tonnes of jumps, they know their shit better than most and are extremely passionate about their sport. They probably have the best lame jokes out there too. I bet they are pretty awesome guys when they aren't behind a keyboard disagreeing with you. Of course I would've bet the Patriots were going to win the Superbowl too..

Good luck. Blue Skies.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 3, 2012, 6:34 PM
Post #98 of 171 (1091 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, just curious if you are going to do AFF, and if so why? Doing solos gets boring very fast, and you state that you dont care for the culture or about jumping with other skydivers - or am I misinterpreting what you said?


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 3, 2012, 6:36 PM
Post #99 of 171 (1088 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Gee, I was wondering when you were going to ask me that. Of course I don't. You think I'm going to give up thousands of dollars that I sweat my ass off for all summer just to call your bluff? How stupid do you think I am? Or were you wondering if I would just lie about it and not give up the money? That's not how I roll. I don't say things that I believe to be untrue. Not even on the internet to prove a point. That'd be a shit ass deal. I'm sure you wouldn't make much more than a few hundred off it in a summer. I know it's just principal to you and the money doesn't matter. I will give you that much respect.


bochen280

May 3, 2012, 8:21 PM
Post #100 of 171 (1067 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well as I said in an ideal world I wish newbies (myself, etc) would be allowed to rent / purchase gear, go to a DZ, sign whatever liability waivers, watch a comprehensive and interactive video course on skydiving and then let go at it.

I understand we do not and never will live in such ideal worlds... just as DZ IS a business, and like any other venture, it has to do what it has to do to turn a profit and strive... Skydiving is a privilege not a "right" so a "fat tax" would not be discrimination because unlike the example with Rosa Parks, falling out of an airplane - unlike bus transportation - is not a "public service" or a living necessity... The DZ can charge whatever they want and do the tier pricing if they wish, ultimately it is a business and they will adjust to supply/demand...

I've always been interested in all things flight, aviation, space related... whether it is general aviation, flight simulator, spacecraft and model rockets, or skydiving. For whatever reason(s) I just never really got to skydiving until now (the one tandem) I'm not a "sport" type of person at all, don't really work well in groups, no tattoos, don't drink, don't curse, don't smoke or do drugs, etc... and I definitely wouldn't "fit it" with the skydiving culture and said generalized archetypes. And of course as individual we all view things and life from different perspectives and angles... to me skydiving is something that is closer to flight/aviation than it is to a so called extreme sport. Two other related things that I've never tried and still want to do are the wind tunnel and the zero gravity ride... so you see I view skydiving along those lines... in fact for me it is all about the freefall... the parachute part is just an afterthought (but a necessary afterthought... lol) Sure wind tunnel kinda does the same, but without the scenery of course... I'm not trying to trivialize nor negate the fact that skydivers with D licenses worked their butt off through perseverance, dedication, skill, etc to get to their positions... and it is something I would like to continue doing (once my feet gets better) and at this point in my life I'm not married, no kids, no girlfriend, etc... so it is the ideal stage in my life to do skydiving (when you got nothing you got nothing to lose) because no matter what the statistics say, fact is skydiving IS a dangerous activity and it is not something I would continue to pursue if I had better things (or rather people) in my life to spend time with.


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 3, 2012, 8:22 PM)


Ron

May 3, 2012, 8:27 PM
Post #101 of 171 (951 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Gee, I was wondering when you were going to ask me that. Of course I don't. You think I'm going to give up thousands of dollars that I sweat my ass off for all summer just to call your bluff? How stupid do you think I am? Or were you wondering if I would just lie about it and not give up the money? That's not how I roll. I don't say things that I believe to be untrue. Not even on the internet to prove a point. That'd be a shit ass deal. I'm sure you wouldn't make much more than a few hundred off it in a summer. I know it's just principal to you and the money doesn't matter. I will give you that much respect.

Tell ya what... I'll make this deal. I'll STILL donate my 'fat tax' income ALL YEAR with the condition that you match it.

Or, I'll donate my 'fat tax' income and all you have to do is admit that it is impossible to truly know what something requires without having done it.

Basically admit you were wrong.


theonlyski  (D License)

May 3, 2012, 8:27 PM
Post #102 of 171 (951 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well as I said in an ideal world I wish newbies (myself, etc) would be allowed to rent / purchase gear, go to a DZ, sign whatever liability waivers, watch a comprehensive and interactive video course on skydiving and then let go at it.

Most people would kill themselves in that situation. Even AFF students forget to pull their parachute, and they've had quite a bit of training and practice doing so.


diablopilot  (D License)

May 3, 2012, 8:37 PM
Post #103 of 171 (947 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Gee, I was wondering when you were going to ask me that. Of course I don't. You think I'm going to give up thousands of dollars that I sweat my ass off for all summer just to call your bluff? How stupid do you think I am? Or were you wondering if I would just lie about it and not give up the money? That's not how I roll. I don't say things that I believe to be untrue. Not even on the internet to prove a point. That'd be a shit ass deal. I'm sure you wouldn't make much more than a few hundred off it in a summer. I know it's just principal to you and the money doesn't matter. I will give you that much respect.

And the "noise to signal" ratio just went through the roof.


The_Don  (B License)

May 3, 2012, 8:39 PM
Post #104 of 171 (946 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

^ This!


theonlyski  (D License)

May 3, 2012, 8:46 PM
Post #105 of 171 (944 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Gee, I was wondering when you were going to ask me that. Of course I don't. You think I'm going to give up thousands of dollars that I sweat my ass off for all summer just to call your bluff? How stupid do you think I am? Or were you wondering if I would just lie about it and not give up the money? That's not how I roll. I don't say things that I believe to be untrue. Not even on the internet to prove a point. That'd be a shit ass deal. I'm sure you wouldn't make much more than a few hundred off it in a summer. I know it's just principal to you and the money doesn't matter. I will give you that much respect.

And the "noise to signal" ratio just went through the roof.

Yeah, the Eb/N0 on this thread has been hovering around 5.

Back to the basics: the OP hurt his ankle on landing, shit happens, sorry bout your luck. If you try to pick up the sport, you'll either learn fast how to land safely or hurt yourself. Tandem landings are different than solo landings.

Don't dwell on the past, thinking 'what if'. If you want to pursue it, get healed up, talk to the DZ and get started. If you don't, that's perfectly acceptable.


BobMoore  (D 13136)

May 3, 2012, 9:51 PM
Post #106 of 171 (933 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well as I said in an ideal world I wish newbies (myself, etc) would be allowed to rent / purchase gear, go to a DZ, sign whatever liability waivers, watch a comprehensive and interactive video course on skydiving and then let go at it.

Oh, if it were only that simple. I would go tomorrow and rent one of those Formula 1 or Indy race cars and burn some rubber. It doesn't look too hard. I watch those guys do it every Sunday afternoon on TV. Oh, no! I know what I want to do! I want to get into one of those hotshot airplane Reno pylon racers. It can't be too difficult, you just jerk that stick back and forth to turn left and right. Piece of cake. Why do they make it so damned hard for me to just have a little bit of fun? It's a conspiracy, I'm sure. I mean, I could just watch a comprehensive and interactive video course and learn all I need to know.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 3, 2012, 10:23 PM
Post #107 of 171 (924 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Most people would kill themselves in that situation.

Actually I think 90% of the people out there would make it through the day without an injury.

>Even AFF students forget to pull their parachute . . .

. . . and either have their parachute deployed for them or have their AAD fire.


stayhigh  (F 111)

May 3, 2012, 10:41 PM
Post #108 of 171 (921 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

there is a place where you can actually do that.

but in order to survive and do it again.
Just fly couple times in tunnel and get used to freefall, and buy yourself a speedwing, and footlaunch yourself after watching youtube and search internet forums how to foot launch that will get you solid at canopy skill

oh yeah, and watch people's cutaway on youtube for emergency procedure.

and than go to this special place where you can actually rent and jump without any qualification, and no there is no waiver at this place.

I love jumping at that place and it is cheap jump ticket too.

just don't fuck up the landing pattern. people will bitch at you hard for that.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on May 3, 2012, 10:44 PM)


BobMoore  (D 13136)

May 3, 2012, 10:47 PM
Post #109 of 171 (915 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
there is a place where you can actually do that.

I love jumping at that place and it is cheap jump ticket too.

And if you ask real nicely they'll even let do some maintenance on their jump planes.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 3, 2012, 10:48 PM
Post #110 of 171 (913 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fair enough - just be aware that doing nothing but solos will get boring quickly. As for not fitting in, give it a chance! Skydivers come from all walks of life - rich, poor, atheists, ultra-religious, shy, outgoing etc.
And just FYI, if you are ever in Memphis TN come out to West Tennessee Skydiving - Mike Mullins (our DZO/pilot) does a parabolic at the top of every jump run to help us stand up. Of course it lasts nowhere as long as the Vomit Comet but you do get to go weightless for a couple of seconds. Pretty cool....


dragon2  (D 101989)

May 4, 2012, 2:03 AM
Post #111 of 171 (890 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not a "sport" type of person at all, don't really work well in groups, no tattoos, don't drink, don't curse, don't smoke or do drugs, etc... and I definitely wouldn't "fit it" with the skydiving culture and said generalized archetypes.

Me neither, although I do drink -sometimes-. I did manage to do 2300+ jumps though, so al of the above is no excuse Cool


nigel99  (D 1)

May 4, 2012, 3:06 AM
Post #112 of 171 (883 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Before you start skydiving I really hope you reconsider your attitude. You've displayed a lot of preconceived notions and misconceptions, along with an apparent unwillingness to learn. That will get you killed or injured sooner or later, or worse still someone else.

Skydiving is NOT something you can learn from YouTube!! Training is nothing to do with dz's making money. I'm pretty sure that if they could replace all those expensive tempermental AFF instructors with a couple of video's they would. Imagine that, they could fill a super otter with first jump students and not waste a cent on some unnecessary instructor.

It simply begars belief that having done a tandem you can hold that view.


(This post was edited by nigel99 on May 4, 2012, 3:10 AM)


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 4, 2012, 3:47 AM
Post #113 of 171 (877 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Gee, I was wondering when you were going to ask me that. Of course I don't. You think I'm going to give up thousands of dollars that I sweat my ass off for all summer just to call your bluff? How stupid do you think I am? Or were you wondering if I would just lie about it and not give up the money? That's not how I roll. I don't say things that I believe to be untrue. Not even on the internet to prove a point. That'd be a shit ass deal. I'm sure you wouldn't make much more than a few hundred off it in a summer. I know it's just principal to you and the money doesn't matter. I will give you that much respect.

And the "noise to signal" ratio just went through the roof.


Why? Because I don't pack anymore? Because I agreed to a "deal" being offered even though I seem to have know a little more about what is going on with that deal? Or because I wouldn't be prepared to give away half my salary for a year (summer) just to be able to call out Ron's alleged moral behavior?

Yeah.. Ok bud.. What did that guy so a page or two back? Boom! You win Crazy

Ron, I will absolutely not admit that it is impossible to understand what it takes to do something without having done it. Like I said before, I know that it is pretty hard to cook up a full on turkey dinner because I have present for the whole damn thing a bunch of times. And its not hard to see that it isn't easy. I know it isn't easy to work on an oil rig. I know it isn't easy to be a TI and it is not the same to do a big one. You are trying to argue a point I made that I never made. I feel like you just caught a sniff of what you thought was a non TI saying that it isn't easy to do tandems and that offended you and you feel that it was necessary to drop the "I've done it and you haven't hammer"

You show me where I said that doing tandems is easy, or that doing tandems with heavy people isn't a whole lot harder than light people and I will show you where I went wrong. I never said that. I never disputed that at all. I think once I said that TI's should suck it up and do their job. If they get paid the tax that's fine. If they don't and are bitching about doing heavy people they should STFU and do the job they signed up for!

My issue is with charging the customer the fee not the TI's getting one. I think I might have said something along the lines of "If an employee is valuable to your business, you should pay them incentive or bonus or more" or something. If being able to take the heavy people means you can make the dz a buck when others can't by all means you should get an incentive. But the customer is buying a tandem skydive, just like the next guy. NOT a jump with Ron.

my definition of a skygod:

Someone who crams their shit down your throat by simply stating "I have more jumps than you, so therefore you know shit and I know everything" But really does not. And comes off like a complete f'ing asshole while doing it.

You my friend are a skygod. Only problem I know of in skydiving is that there are WAY too many people like you in it.

Edited to add:

I would gladly match your donation to charity from your fat tax, but that would mean you are still charging it. And that would defeat the whole purpose. I challenge you to get your entire dz and the TI's to make the donation. If you can do that and show me the tax receipt. I will match your portion of it. And that is straight up. I would match the entire thing, but I don't have a whole lot of money to begin with and I can't commit to that because I really have no idea what I would be getting in to.

As a matter of fact you should go ahead and tell the large people that the extra you are charging them is going to the childhood obesity foundation. Wonder how well that would go over?

Thanks to all those that have sent me PM's of support and I understand why you didn't really want to get involved in this gong show.


This time I am letting it go because I am just really getting bored of it. I said my piece, you said yours. Let the people decide.

Peace out.


(This post was edited by packerboy on May 4, 2012, 4:23 AM)


DougH  (D License)

May 4, 2012, 4:26 AM
Post #114 of 171 (867 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Waaaaaaa waaaaaaaa, a true internet crusader!

You want to cry about some alleged wrong with no skin in the game. Put up or shut up. Go get a rating and then you can personally right a wrong and give your fat tax back to the big ones.

Do you boycott comercial air travel because they charge obese people more at times?

This was a whole bunch of bs from some one that isn't even in the industry any more! The bullshit got chin high when you started comparing charging heavier people (an often voluntary infliction, or just reality) an extra fee to go skydiving (a completely frivolous optional activity) to racism. Give me a break what a joke!

Can you move on to calling the tandem instructors Nazi's so we can put this to bed.


(This post was edited by DougH on May 4, 2012, 5:01 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 4, 2012, 4:59 AM
Post #115 of 171 (857 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Moral of the story is that you are offering a product. You offer to person A for a different price than you offer it to person B because person B is well, lets just go ahead and call them fat.

Are you ready to have the rug pulled out from under your 'discrimination' argument?

It's not discrimination because it has nothing to do with being fat. A 250 lb body builder with 3% bodyfat still has to pay extra. A 6' 7" guy with a normal BMI still has to pay extra.

Get it through your skull, it has nothing to do with being fat, it's a weight issue, plain and simple.

If you were 5' 1", and weighed 180 lbs with zero muscle tone, how do you think people would describe you? Most would say fat, the medical community would say 'morbidly obese', but you wouldn't pay a dime more than the 87 lb Japanese lady that jumped before you. It's got nothing to do with being fat.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 4, 2012, 5:54 AM
Post #116 of 171 (838 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka,

Great point! Far more productive than "You have zero experience, so your opinion means shit" or "I have x number of tandem, so what I know is correct and you don't know shit" or "go get a rating and do a thousand tandems and then you have the right to discuss how pricing structures work"

Definitely has got me thinking. I'm not 100% sure I feel that the customers should be charged more because of the shape or condition of their body. I still feel that if weight or body condition is a safety issue than it should be a no go. If not, you should be treated as an equal. Regardless of what you call it i still do not think it is right to charge person A more than person B. I'm not the one who coined to term "fat tax" I was just the first person to use it in this thread. I will from now on refer to it as a weight tax or body shape tax.

I'm glad someone has brought an argument to the table without their ego. Where were you with this 110 posts ago? I knew there were nice guys out there that disagree with me. I respect that. The whole bs part of this thread as far as I'm concerned was more about ego than the actual point I was trying to make. I have always been open to logical rational discussion. I just refused to get bullied.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 4, 2012, 6:14 AM
Post #117 of 171 (833 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Where were you with this 110 posts ago?

Doesn't matter, you were wrong then too.

The fact is that it's a physical reality that it's more work to take a heavy tandem. Not a fat tandem, a heavy tandem.

TIs have no insurance, no workmans comp, no benefits, no profit sharing, and they make no money when it rains or when the wind blows too hard. They show up each day with a limited amount of energy and strength, and if a tandem is going to require more of that than average, then the TI deserves to compensated for that.

Nobody is being charged extra for being old, or ugly, or because of their race or religion, there's a physical reality at play and if you exceed a certain weight, you have to pay extra.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

May 4, 2012, 7:34 AM
Post #118 of 171 (817 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

To me, some tandem students would be less work than average, some more work than average, so the fee should represent the average knowing that it all works out in the end. That is how almost every industry works...some of my patients are more work than others, some of my AFF students are more work than others, for varying reasons, but they all get charged the same.

I can understand the surcharge and the logic behind it. I don't agree with it, but I don't own a DZ, so it doesn't matter what I think, it's not my call to make. I'm not a TI (but I sleep with one) and his thoughts on this are the reason I believe this way.

The Ron/Packerboy pissing match was fun to watch, but really went nowhere... that's what tends to happens when two type As talk at each other instead of having a meaningful discourse.


linebckr83  (D 30571)

May 4, 2012, 8:09 AM
Post #119 of 171 (808 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To me, the best part about skydiving is the free-fall experience. I could personally care less about the dingy little airplane with no seats and the parachute almost choking me alive on opening... or the bad landing and broken ankle for that matter... or the whole sub-"culture" that revolves around the sport. It is the activity itself that I love, not the regulation, the FAA, the USPA, the DZs, the other jumpers or the so called camaraderie.

Like others have said, skydivers come from all walks of life. I tend to be the party time that is up at 4am during boogies drinking and causing trouble. Others drive to their hotel at 8pm and relax and go to bed early. Luckily there are so many types of people that you are bound to find someone you really connect with.

From my experience, the "just wanna freefall, no parachute ride, no skydiving friends or memories, just freefall" guys are the ones who usually don't make it past student status, or soon quit after getting their license. Solo jumps get boring really fast. Theres a saying: "People come to experience a skydive, but stay for the people".

I cringe when people talk about the "parachute ride" as a boring, unnecessary time-wasting activity just to get to the ground. The #1 cause of fatalities is human error under a fully functional parachute, generally from this mentality which leads to having no desire to learn to properly fly and land a canopy.

If you really dislike people that much, this might not be an activity best suited for you. It is a conversation-heavy activity, where your personal space will often be intruded.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

May 4, 2012, 8:22 AM
Post #120 of 171 (801 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
To me, the best part about skydiving is the free-fall experience. I could personally care less about the dingy little airplane with no seats and the parachute almost choking me alive on opening... or the bad landing and broken ankle for that matter... or the whole sub-"culture" that revolves around the sport. It is the activity itself that I love, not the regulation, the FAA, the USPA, the DZs, the other jumpers or the so called camaraderie.

You are missing the forest for the trees. Freefall is not 'the activity itself'... it is one tree in the forest. Skydiving IS the canopy ride, the culture, the people, the planes, the regulations that we follow, the organizations that represent us, even the pissing matches on DZ.com.

What are you looking to gain out of this sport? From your words it appears that your perception of skydiving and what it actually is may not be compatible.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 4, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #121 of 171 (764 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure it was fun to watch.. Probably why the mods didn't lock it a long time ago. Laugh

My birthday is tomorrow. It was 12 yrs ago tomorrow that myself and 12 of my friends first got up, drove to Dundas, ON. to a small skydive centre on a farm out in the middle of nowhere called Swoop. There I met a guy named Gary. Gary was to become my tandem instructor. We went through all the waivers and go to the weigh in. They only had to weigh one guy. My friend Dave was a pretty big guy. After weighing him (and before it) you could see a little apprehension in the eyes of the staff. I don't remember the exact details about what they did with Dave, but it was basically explained that his weight was an issue and that the decision as to whether or not to jump would have to based on his fitness level. He was made to demonstrate that he had the ability to jump off a picnic table and do a PLF (in hindsight I don't really see how that ability made much sense), but perhaps it was to test his agility. He also made to lift his legs up into a chair type position and hold them there for a period of time. It was decided that while he was pretty heavy it would still be ok for him to jump. We go outside and go through the motions of the all the training involved with doing a tandem. They actually put a harness on each of us and got into a mockup behind us and got us to do some practice exits. I'm not sure if this was common practice or if it was just to kill some time because it was pretty windy and perhaps they were waiting for it to calm down. Finally it came to jump time and because it was my birthday and my buddy Paolo's birthday as well it was decided that we were going to be the first to go. We got all harnessed up, met the pilot and did that very slow motion walk to the plane for the video guy.

It was at that point (taxi, plane ride, lame jokes, spotting problems aside) that I strapped Gary to my back like a parachute and I jumped out of the plane. It was one of the most invigorating moments of my life. A true highlight. I will never forget it. Never.

You see what I did there? I (ME) strapped Gary to my back and jumped out of the airplane. I say that because that is how I remember it. That is how Gary made me feel. Not like he was strapping me to his chest, like I was the one strapping him to my back. I was the man that day, not Gary. He was simply along for the ride and to take care of the details so I didn't have to worry about it.

Tandem instructors that can do this.. that can realize that to them it is just another ordinary day, but to their passenger it is truly a highlight of their life. That can step outside their ego and let someone else be the man (or women) and let them bask in the moment. These tandem instructors I have MAD respect for. They are the true heroes of the sport. The rest are doing the sport a disservice IMO.

Dave was pretty embarrassed that out of this group of 12 people that he was singled out of his group of friends as being a possible safety issue, but he got over it. Even if he was charged extra he probably would have gotten over it, but it probably wouldn't have helped. But that isn't what I remember the most of the day. What I remember the best was that I was not only treated as an equal I was treated better. This was my day to shine, and they were only there to facilitate. What a day! I know what kind of business that I like to give my money to.

Now maybe this great treatment was because there was a lot of time to kill because it was windy, or because we were such a large group, or because it was a small club. But I will hold Swoop on a pedestal as a dropzone to do a first jump even though it didn't end up being my home dropzone. I did go back and do one more there before taking off out west for a while and eventually coming back to the sport 3 yrs later.

It was that day 12 yrs ago that I feel I became entitled to an opinion on how tandem students are treated. Because I WAS one.

Now when I step back and mull over this thread and what has happened I realize this:

I had an opinion about the weight tax. I felt it was wrong, immoral and greedy and I fully expected an argument. A good one. You can't get away with ANYTHING on this website without a real good serious debate. And I was prepared for one.

What I got was an argument on how I was not titled to an opinion on the matter. It took a little while to figure out, but I finally realized the irony, Ron, is that while I began an argument on equality (whether my opinion was right or wrong), you argued that I am not equally entitled to an opinion. I feel that your take on why I was not entitled to an opinion was ludicrous so I fell into the trap of trying to argue that. Do you realize the irony in this?

Ron and Diablo... Trying to tell me that my argument is wrong by telling me that they I have no right to an opinion (for whatever reason) has therefore led me to the conclusion that:

Quote:
Then your comments on the matter mean exactly shit.

Wow, can something be double ironic?

Davelepka while you may have been tempted to do the same as Ron and Diablo (You are clearly in disagreement with me) you didn't. You waited until you had something productive to say about the issue I brought forth. Mad props for that. Speaks volumes of your character.

So here it is... My offer of peace. The olive branch so to speak. You can have it.

Go ahead take it. I know you want to.

Just... can't... resist....


So...... shiny.


Ahhhh, there it is. You clicked on it didn't you? Well now you have it. Use it well.
Attachments: Rondiablo.jpg (5.78 KB)


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #122 of 171 (761 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Where were you with this 110 posts ago?

Doesn't matter, you were wrong then too.

The fact is that it's a physical reality that it's more work to take a heavy tandem. Not a fat tandem, a heavy tandem.

TIs have no insurance, no workmans comp, no benefits, no profit sharing, and they make no money when it rains or when the wind blows too hard. They show up each day with a limited amount of energy and strength, and if a tandem is going to require more of that than average, then the TI deserves to compensated for that.

Nobody is being charged extra for being old, or ugly, or because of their race or religion, there's a physical reality at play and if you exceed a certain weight, you have to pay extra.

How much does the average TI get paid? I didn't know they don't have insurance.. is it because being in this industry insurance would be crazy expensive? or simply that DZ business strategy being structured in a way that does not afford them any coverage at all?

I don't think anyone really thinks charging a weight surcharge (aka "fat" tax) is bona fide discrimination. Otherwise this practice would have been removed one way or another a long time ago.

In my perspective it comes down to charging a tax for over a certain weight limit (regardless of whether or not it is fat or muscle or water) **vs** having a fixed hard limit and not going over it no matter what, and thus not charging a tax at all... (basically no tiered pricing)...

One thing is clear, in BOTH cases there is still a "hard" hard limit. No tandem instructor is going to take a dude that weighs 500lbs (for extreme example) skydiving for ANY amount of money.

So there are physical (as in laws of physicals) hard limits that dictate maximum weight (and still be reasonably safe) regardless of DZ practices, business strategy, attitude on the subject, perspective...

If the DZ's currently charging the tiered pricing were somehow FORCED to revert to one price scheme they would simply artificially lower the max weight limit and not service the heaviest segment of the population at all (which yields them the least return on investment)... after all, the heaviest people give them the lowest margins, so if the DZ has a lot of customers they can very well afford to turn away the heaviest passengers and give priority attention to the skinny 90lb females in bathing suits. It is human nature to go for the lowest hanging fruit first.

They don't give skinny girls a cheaper price because there are certain fix costs, like gear rental, paying the instructors, electric bills, maintence costs, etc that is not weight dependent... but skydiving is a very weight orientated sport in certain other aspects (including the airplane ride up to altitude, weight affecting the wear and tear of the chute, gear, and faster fall rate thus correlating to risk of injury on landing, general fatigue of the TI/TM, etc) so the business is structured around that. Airlines, and even UPS/USPS/Fedex are doing the same thing.

I think it really comes down to DZ are discouraging (but not in a bona fide "discriminatory" way) heavier (regardless of whether it is fat, muscle, water, poop, etc) people from skydiving BECAUSE the skinner/smaller people are where the highest profit margins are, and all else being equal, they would rather spend time doing as many light weight pax as possible and as few "heavy" wide bodied pax as possible... This is human nature, basic business sense... No one can fault them for that... work smarter not harder right? After all, who doesn't want to get most bang for buck and pursue after highest ROI ?

So it comes down to the "tax" being the "difference" that makes it equitable and worthwhile for the DZ to take a heavy person vs a light person. So instead of the DZ telling heavier people, "NO.. we'd rather take a lighter person instead.." they name an extra amount that would make it financially and psychologically "worth it" to them to take a heavier person up in the air... The tiered pricing simultaneously serves as a deterrent for heavier people to go skydiving (unless skydiving is a very price inelastic activity? but I don't know) and at the same time recuperates their margin loses from the ROI hit they take from taking a bigger dude. The DZs that offer one flat rate (while it may seem more equitable and fair at first glance) are actually and effectively simply pricing everything in.... so that effectively the skinner people are (even more) subsidizing part of the ride for heavier people.... After all there ain't no free lunch and monies don't grow on trees so that has to come from somewhere...

A more cynical view could be that skydiving is a very price inelastic activity (especially first time tandem jumps) less than 1% (approx?) of the population have jumped, so those that DO make up their minds to do it certainty won't hesitate to pay the extra $20 ... so on top of and in addition to the aforementioned reasons, weight could be just a convinent "differentiator" that gives the DZ an excuse to make another quick buck while they are at all....

Either way, ultimately everything has to balance out... so the pricing scheme is simply a difference of ideology of the allocation of revenue. Which passengers should pay more. And I think in a sport that is so weight sensitive, mass is the biggest differentiation of pricing.

I think DZs that don't get enough business would not implement a fat tax, because they would rather have that person's business than nothing at all if the heavy dude was turned away by the extra fee. But being that skydiving is not a commodity and the general public do not consume this activity, it is probably price inelastic enough that even THOSE DZs can get away with a marginal tax. (again, I would think that most people who make up their minds about skydiving do not get deterred by a mere $20 extra fee) and to be honest I don't think the heavier people would really mind it that much anyway. They pay more for food, they pay more for more aviation fuel consumed, etc.

So this makes me think the primary reason the DZ's that charge a flat rate are psychological. They want to appear to others and themselves to be more "equitable"... but in fact are inadvertently disadvantaging the lighter segment of the population by making them subsidize a part of the heavier population...

So I do think a more atomic and granular approach to billing and allocation is more appropriate all things considered.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 4, 2012, 12:57 PM
Post #123 of 171 (757 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

If someone is too fat to skydive and we risk exploding a reserve canopy...I have zero desire to jump with you.
Lose weight or go bowling.
My life isn't worth risking for your simple pleasure.


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 1:02 PM
Post #124 of 171 (754 views)
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Re: [normiss] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If someone is too fat to skydive and we risk exploding a reserve canopy...I have zero desire to jump with you.
Lose weight or go bowling.
My life isn't worth risking for your simple pleasure.

You shouldn't be in the skydiving "business" if that is your attitude. Hard weight limits are there for a reason. For protection of both the pax and the TI/TM. In any case I did not surpass any soft nor hard weight limits and was not charged a "fax tax", so I don't see where your lose weight comment fits in to any of this. I too agree a life is not worth risking if you have so much to lose. Skydiving is an inherently risking sport regardless of tandem or solo, taking heavier pax or light pax. It would seem that the DZ's that charge a tier pricing structure have simply "priced in" that risk factor, and they seem to think that a heavier person risk (on your life) is worth the extra 20 bucks. Hey, it is a business, you aren't doing it as a charity or for fun or for the sake of giving your pax "pleasure" either... that is the nature of the industry and it is a double-edge sword. Why do you always make reference and mention to bowling? Do you like that a lot? Why don't you go become a bowling instructor?


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 4, 2012, 1:11 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 4, 2012, 1:47 PM
Post #125 of 171 (724 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why do you always make reference and mention to bowling?

FYI:
It's a standard skydiving expression, looking down on non-skydivers. If skydivers feel someone is unsuited to our sport, we joke that they should be told to TUB - take up bowling. That's nothing against bowling, just that bowling is safer. Bowlers don't end up as limp, crunchy bags of meat and bone fragments if they are stupid or incompetent.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 4, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #126 of 171 (1174 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's ask someone with knowledge of gas consumption in a plane and rigging knowledge.

Most of what I can see is that DZ's add the "tax" something like this..

@210 you start paying the tax ($20 extra) @ 230 you can't jump. Or something like that.

If max weight of the reserve is 500lbs, then that 20lb window is about 4% the amount of total weight on the system (at max loading)

Skydive Dallas charges $400 for a premium tandem package.

$20 is 5% of $400

Obviously the price range of tandems at different dropzones is different and the weight of the TI is variable. There are lots of variables. So much in fact that I don't know why I even started with numbers.

Start again.

Is the $20 extra that the student pays enough, not enough, or more than enough to pay for the added operational cost?Or such a pittance that it is completely arbitrary when it comes to the extra gas, wear and tear on gear, and extra wages for the TI?

For arguments sake, I'll say that the business owners value the TI that does the extra and compensates.

What percentage of students fall into the category of paying this tax? Even if it is 10%, that means 9/10 tandem passengers don't fall into that category, and slightly less than 90% of the total weight you are carrying is not paying the extra little bit of revenue.

Let's say a DZ brings in a million bucks in revenue. How much of that revenue is from the tax? How much more does it cost the DZ to carry 5lbs here and 10lbs there?

I'm willing to bet.. and I could be way off, that the majority of the revenue from this tax goes back into the pockets of the TI's, and the amount that the DZ receives is really kind of arbitrary when it comes to operating costs. Probably in the micro percentages.

That being said, if you don't have TI's that are willing to take these heavy people (it should ALWAYS be the TI's decision) you are out the $400, or $300 or whatever you are charging.

When a dz does a tandem, I bet that the profit margin is a fair bit better than $20. So if you don't charge the student and still pay the TI $10, you aren't losing money per se, just making a slimmer margin. So the dz takes a small hit while the TI gets compensated for bringing in that extra $400 in revenue.

Is it REALLY necessary for the dz to charge the student in order to be able to compensate the TI? In the grand scheme of things does it make THAT much of a difference. I'm going to guess that it is WAY less than 1 in 10 that fall into this category.

Sorry if I'm all over the map on this, I'm just curious about how necessary it really is.... can someone in the know please oblige in a rational manner? I know it isn't the original topic in the thread, but can we put all the argument crap aside and learn something interesting here? I don't even know how much extra the TI's get, but I'm thinking its $5 or $10 generally..

I know there are plenty people around here that love to crunch numbers and probably has before and knows generally what the specifics are.. especially a DZO that has either decided for or against charging the "tax".

Don't worry. If you know because you do charge it, I'm not going to go all nutty and call you a racist or anything...


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 4, 2012, 1:57 PM
Post #127 of 171 (1174 views)
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Re: [pchapman] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Why do you always make reference and mention to bowling?

FYI:
It's a standard skydiving expression, looking down on non-skydivers. If skydivers feel someone is unsuited to our sport, we joke that they should be told to TUB - take up bowling. That's nothing against bowling, just that bowling is safer. Bowlers don't end up as limp, crunchy bags of meat and bone fragments if they are stupid or incompetent.

Well we have made up some pretty silly and crazy bowling type games in the hangar on rainy days before that have near those consequences...


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 3:18 PM
Post #128 of 171 (1155 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

The standard price for a tandem jump at one of the DZ near me is about $230. At SDD they charge additional $20 for anyone over 200lbs and max out with a hard limit at 210lbs for tandem.

So you are correct. Not only is the extra fee less than 10% of the standard price, it also applies to only an extremely narrow segment of the population (those between 200 and 210 pounds) I don't see this being a substantial "money maker" for the DZ or the TI/TM. For one, not enough tandem pax would fall into that slim category, and secondly the extra fee is only marginally higher than the standard cost, and like you said, less than 5% more than the VIP tandem package... so it is minimal impact on the bottom line...

It is definitely less than weight proportional. A 90 lbs girl gets charged $230, if it was scaled then a 180lbs dude would pay double that at $460... but instead even a 209lbs guy would "only" pay $20 more at $250.

This makes me believe the primary purpose of the "tax" is NOT to deter heavy people from skydiving, otherwise the tax margin would be MUCH higher. Nor is it a marketing ploy to "make an extra quick buck" by "discriminating against the heavy" and using weight as an excuse to find any reason to charge more and prey on the price inelastic nature of the demand for tandem. (again, if that was the case, they'd charge a lot more for the fat tax)

So it seems like all else being equal, the DZ would rather have the "fat" dudes business than as opposed to not have it at all.... Would the extra $20 cover for the extra 10lbs of weight? (actually the average weight difference would only be five or so pounds in this case) Sure... but it is not a perfect gradient and not to scale... I think there is more to it than that. There is a much bigger difference (weight, fuel, fatigue, financial, etc) between a 99lbs girl and a 199lbs dude, even though both fall into the same price category, than vs compared to a 209lbs being charged merely $20 more as opposed to a 199lbs guy. Though perhaps the "last ten pounds" towards the max ceiling possess more of a risk and danger than the "first 100 pounds"...

If this was supposed to be a way to recuperate the extra costs of fuel, wear and tear, TI/TM fatigue for the DZ, I don't even think it does it fully. Almost seems like a pittance.

Probably as you suggested it seems more like a "tip" and a "little extra something" to motivate the TI/TM to take on a heavier person, otherwise the DZ might lose that pax business entirely. If anything, it now seems like it is the tandem instructors themselves (and not the pax, not the DZ) who are given the shorter end of the stick in this situation...

In any case I don't think it is unreasonable. In fact it seems more than fair. They should probably start charging more at 180lbs and make it progressive... each extra pound after that means paying an extra dollar (or two) until hitting the 210lbs maximum... especially for states that Texas full of heavy people.


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 4, 2012, 3:32 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 4, 2012, 3:23 PM
Post #129 of 171 (1152 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
To me, some tandem students would be less work than average, some more work than average, so the fee should represent the average knowing that it all works out in the end.

That would be great if price wasn't such a concern to DZs. If you want to the least amount of money the DZ, TI, pilot or packer is willing to take for a tandem, just call the office and ask the regular price of a tandem and that will be it. What they charge is the lowest everyone is willing to work for, and then a sur-charge builds off of that.

For to some sort of 'average' deal, with higher and lower prices for larger or smaller people, you would need to raise the everyday rate for 'average' people so you had room to discount the light-weights, and that's just not going to happen.

Unlike AFF or almost any other personal service provided, taking a tandem involves literally physically moving a person around. Be it in the plane, on the step, or the increased toggle pressure under canopy, more weight equals more work, and the TI should be compensated.


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 3:42 PM
Post #130 of 171 (1147 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

When a dz does a tandem, I bet that the profit margin is a fair bit better than $20. So if you don't charge the student and still pay the TI $10, you aren't losing money per se, just making a slimmer margin. So the dz takes a small hit while the TI gets compensated for bringing in that extra $400 in revenue.

Is it REALLY necessary for the dz to charge the student in order to be able to compensate the TI? In the grand scheme of things does it make THAT much of a difference. I'm going to guess that it is WAY less than 1 in 10 that fall into this category.
.

Perhaps the extra "fat tax" is not about the DZ's bottom line (at least not in any direct way)... perhaps the extra pittance is merely a "tip", a token symbolic gesture the DZ makes to the TI/TM to show appreciation of them taking on the heavier people? And like all emotional gestures, to make it count this has to be publicized and not a behind the doors allocation. This is perhaps the real reason it is not "priced in" by a flat rate. By charging heavy people more and doing it directly and in an open manner, it leaves less room for TI/TM to say "no" and emotionally pressures them into saying "YES". It gives the heavy customer more "power" because now they can say they "paid" for it. Basically, the heavy dude now can (indirectly) insinuate that the TI/TM is a "wuss" if they rejected him/her due to weight issues or concerns when they were under the hard limit. Even though the extra fee is not equitable to the extra risk. After running some simplistic numbers it now seems more like an emotional play on the TI/TM than a full and straightforward "financial" compensation of any proportional or equitable means. This tax is probably less about the DZ trying to recuperate lost margins from heavy people than appeasing and making an emotional appeal backed by a token symbolic financial gesture to the TI/TM to take them on at all, otherwise like you said the DZ is out the $300 completely. Perhaps the heavier people should be THANKING the DZ for this physiologically manipulative (just my theory) tax that compels the TI/TM to take on heavy people that they otherwise would turn down?


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 4, 2012, 4:12 PM)


toolbox  (D 18778)

May 4, 2012, 3:44 PM
Post #131 of 171 (1146 views)
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Re: [billvon] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Actually I think 90% of the people out there would make it through the day without an injury.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha........ha ha ha,you are kidding right?

>....and either have their parachute pulled for them or have their AAD fire.

If they just came out and winged it without instruction,who would pull their chute for them if there were no instructors?
Even if they had the AAD get the reserve out,they still have to land the damn thing.
Aren't most injuries and fatalities occurring under fully functional chutes?
Just cause the chute opens doesn't mean you are out of the woods.
They could do a full flare at 35ft,go down wind into a parked truck without flaring while landing out ect,ect,ect....
But hey,I guess they could still do that even with good instruction,since students have a mind of there own.


(This post was edited by toolbox on May 4, 2012, 3:46 PM)


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 4, 2012, 3:47 PM
Post #132 of 171 (1142 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
To me, some tandem students would be less work than average, some more work than average, so the fee should represent the average knowing that it all works out in the end.

That would be great if price wasn't such a concern to DZs. If you want to the least amount of money the DZ, TI, pilot or packer is willing to take for a tandem, just call the office and ask the regular price of a tandem and that will be it. What they charge is the lowest everyone is willing to work for, and then a sur-charge builds off of that.

For to some sort of 'average' deal, with higher and lower prices for larger or smaller people, you would need to raise the everyday rate for 'average' people so you had room to discount the light-weights, and that's just not going to happen.

Unlike AFF or almost any other personal service provided, taking a tandem involves literally physically moving a person around. Be it in the plane, on the step, or the increased toggle pressure under canopy, more weight equals more work, and the TI should be compensated.

As should anyone who works hard at their job. But if I get a raise or promotion because I work my ass off and get there. it is not a selective group of my customers that is chosen to pay for that raise, it comes from the operating costs of the business. A lot of my customers are way harder to deal with than others. That's just human nature. Most of why they are harder to deal with in my industry is just simply because they are pricks. Much better reason to charge them more than others than being big. I don't disagree with tandem instructors being compensated for working harder. I'm pretty sure that I have never said that. I would have a problem if someone got hired at a dropzone that does not compensate extra and then bitches about it afterwards.

Would it not be more beneficial to the dz to say charge $1 more to every customer to cover the added costs of taking the big ones (costs including, but not limited to the extra bit of pay to the TI)? I'm sure this would make even more money and would eliminate the stigma of singling out people and possibly losing a customer or two that may be offended. Just a thought...


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 3:48 PM
Post #133 of 171 (1142 views)
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Re: [toolbox] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Actually I think 90% of the people out there would make it through the day without an injury.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha........ha ha ha,you are kidding right?

>....and either have their parachute pulled for them or have their AAD fire.

If they just came out and winged it without instruction,who would pull their chute for them if there were no instructors?
Even if they had the AAD get the reserve out,they still have to land the damn thing.
Aren't most injuries and fatalities occurring under fully functional chutes?
Just cause the chute opens doesn't mean you are out of the woods.
They could do a full flare at 35ft,go down wind into a parked truck without flaring while landing out ect,ect,ect...LaughLaughLaughLaugh.
But hey,I guess they could still do that even with good instruction,since students have a mind of there own.

Not to get off subject but have you seen this tech article? http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/12/course-hero/

YouTube/Vimeo/etc is your friend. If I watch enough of the (sometimes) very good quality videos of all stages of skydiving I can get quite proficient at it just through the mirror neurons that vicariously empathetically learn through simulated stimulation. Virtual muscle memory.

The age of "holier than thou" (and I'm directing this more at the so called higher education University diploma mills than the skydiving accreditation community) is about to come to an end. Technology flattens the value of a formal education and makes knowledge available to all.


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 4, 2012, 3:49 PM)


ghost47  (D License)

May 4, 2012, 5:42 PM
Post #134 of 171 (1101 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
YouTube/Vimeo/etc is your friend. If I watch enough of the (sometimes) very good quality videos of all stages of skydiving I can get quite proficient at it just through the mirror neurons that vicariously empathetically learn through simulated stimulation. Virtual muscle memory.
I won't say it's impossible that you could learn to skydive well by watching Youtube, but I will say that the first time one jumps solo out of an airplane can very disorienting, and very different from what one expects.

To use myself as an example, in 2004, I did a tandem. I was perfectly composed the entire time, had almost no fear, and actually found the experience kind of boring.

Fast forward to 2008 when I made my first AFF jump. I was fine in the plane. Once I got out -- the scaredest I have ever been in my life. (And this was unexpected to me -- I had thought that, because I had done a tandem previously, freefall would not be so disorienting.) Had I not drilled and drilled and drilled the dive flow, I'm sure I would not have remembered what to do. As it is, I'm not sure if I was consciously thinking about stuff, or if I was just going through the routine that my instructors had drilled into me.

And this is assuming that you are able to, as you say, "watch enough of the (sometimes) very good quality videos of all stages of skydiving." Without an instructor, how will you know you've seen all stages? Will you know what to do if you have line twists, a brake-fire, a horseshoe, a pilot chute in tow, a pilot chute hesitation, or even just a slider up? How do you know how to land, where the windsocks are, how not to mess up the pattern so as not to endanger other jumpers? What do you do if your canopy is just turning slightly to the left with both toggles up, but you can correct it with a little right toggle?

When you heal, I hope you'll consider doing an AFF class. If, after that first class and jump, you still feel like you could have done all that by watching Youtube and Vimeo, I will be very surprised.


toolbox  (D 18778)

May 4, 2012, 5:43 PM
Post #135 of 171 (1100 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are going to get into skydiving,you need to know and accept that it is inherently very dangerous.
Skydiving really blows up your skirt and can be very rewarding but,even with the best gear and training,you are still rolling the dice.
I do not know what happened on your tandem, since I was not there and, all this talk of it is just talk.
I do know for certain though,that you can do everything right and still get maimed or killed for an infinite number of reasons.
You could have a double mal,you could get slammed into the ground by some funky air,or have your canopy collapse at 100ft,ect,ect.....
The point I am trying to make is, do not approach this sport with a cavalier attitude. Get the proper training from the folks with the experience(properly rated instructors).
This sport is a lot of fun but, do not kid yourself,it will kill you faster than you will no your dead if you do not respect it.
So heal up fast and strong,then find a nice USPA DZ in your area that you get good vibes from and listen to your instructors,and do not come to this sight as a substitute for instruction.
Have fun!


Austintxflight

May 4, 2012, 6:12 PM
Post #136 of 171 (1090 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Actually I think 90% of the people out there would make it through the day without an injury.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha........ha ha ha,you are kidding right?

>....and either have their parachute pulled for them or have their AAD fire.

If they just came out and winged it without instruction,who would pull their chute for them if there were no instructors?
Even if they had the AAD get the reserve out,they still have to land the damn thing.
Aren't most injuries and fatalities occurring under fully functional chutes?
Just cause the chute opens doesn't mean you are out of the woods.
They could do a full flare at 35ft,go down wind into a parked truck without flaring while landing out ect,ect,ect...LaughLaughLaughLaugh.
But hey,I guess they could still do that even with good instruction,since students have a mind of there own.

Not to get off subject but have you seen this tech article? http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/12/course-hero/

YouTube/Vimeo/etc is your friend. If I watch enough of the (sometimes) very good quality videos of all stages of skydiving I can get quite proficient at it just through the mirror neurons that vicariously empathetically learn through simulated stimulation. Virtual muscle memory.

The age of "holier than thou" (and I'm directing this more at the so called higher education University diploma mills than the skydiving accreditation community) is about to come to an end. Technology flattens the value of a formal education and makes knowledge available to all.


I'm sure its possible to learn simply by watching videos, and it does help. When I was going through AFF I watched just about every video i could find that had AFF in it. But one would have to agree that chances for failure begin to increase with less formal education.

When you are teaching someone in front of you, you can tell if they are getting it or not, you can tell they are paying attention or if they have 5 other tabs open on their browser and watching TV. Also as many people have pointed out, the first time in a new environment can be disorienting and having someone there can help.

I'm sure you were not an expert at the sex by just watching videos online. It took some practical experience as well. Not saying that porn didn't help steepen the learning curve, but you cannot cut out the part of experience solely through learning through observation.

And once again, I'm sure through learning online, one could be decent enough to survive, and make it without injury, but I would hope the goals are higher than simply survival.

And don't even think about the legal issues when someone gets hurt through a internet skydiving school that mails you a rig when you complete the online course that lets you print a certificate and take to your local DZ to allow you to jump.

I do agree, the internet is helping broaden learning, but I'm going to learn alot more about playing the guitar in a lesson than I am just listening to music.


Ron

May 4, 2012, 6:39 PM
Post #137 of 171 (1082 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
my definition of a skygod:

Someone who crams their shit down your throat by simply stating "I have more jumps than you, so therefore you know shit and I know everything" But really does not. And comes off like a complete f'ing asshole while doing it.

You my friend are a skygod. Only problem I know of in skydiving is that there are WAY too many people like you in it.

Definition of a skygod. A Person that does not Have the experience yet claims he is 'smarter' or 'better' and therfore he is the expert without the real credentials to back it up.

That is you.

Quote:
I would gladly match your donation to charity from your fat tax, but that would mean you are still charging it. And that would defeat the whole purpose. I challenge you to get your entire dz and the TI's to make the donation. If you can do that and show me the tax receipt. I will match your portion of it. And that is straight up. I would match the entire thing, but I don't have a whole lot of money to begin with and I can't commit to that because I really have no idea what I would be getting in to.

Ah, so you are unwilling to actually put your money where your mouth is..... Another charictaristic of a skygod.

Quote:
Ron and Diablo... Trying to tell me that my argument is wrong by telling me that they I have no right to an opinion

And that is PURE crap. I never said you were not entitled to have an opinion. I simply said that since you have. I relevant experience then your opinion is not worth as much as someone that has that experience.... Simple logic really.

You are entitled to an opinion, I think your opinion is not based in facts.

Simply put.... You are a guy with a strong opinion and nothing but ego and hot air to back it up. As soon as Someone dares challenge your superiority, you insult them.

The fact I offered you a deal and you negotiated in bad faith and then even backed out says all I need to know about you.


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 7:26 PM
Post #138 of 171 (1070 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

And don't even think about the legal issues when someone gets hurt through a internet skydiving school that mails you a rig when you complete the online course that lets you print a certificate and take to your local DZ to allow you to jump.

Well yes, there is ALWAYS that.

There is a lot of mystique surrounding skydiving (I don't mean for the "in" community but speaking in terms of the "general" population) and a lot of it can be disclosed.... and explained away...

I'm not attempting to trivialize the mechanics and dynamics of skydiving (there again is the epistemological dilemma of simply not knowing what one does not know) but to me, imho, skydiving is not exactly rocket science. I'm sure to be good at it the actual activity takes mental skill, coordination, timing, concentration, depth perception, muscle memory, etc and a lot more that can only be honed through real life practice... but the principles themselves are simple, borderline trivial, and not very complex.

Why is there not (maybe there is, but I've looked and found none) 3d/cg animation that shows frame by frame how skydiving really works.... (a sort of "how stuff works" but in immense 3-dimensional detail) ... basically an Avatar like quality rendering of a virtual skydiver from the moment he packs and inspects his chute, to gearing up, to getting on the airplane to riding to altitude, to jumping out, stabilizing, then opening the chute, gliding down to approach, flaring, landing, taking off his equipment... basically showing the ENTIRE schedule of the quintessentially skydiving in all its glory... in 3d, rendered in real-time, to be replayed as often as one would like, from any perspective or angle, in any rendering mode, etc...

An absolute newbie who never heard of skydiving could learn so much from something like that in just a few hours... to get a fundamental conceptual idea of "how" skydiving works, "why" it works and what role and function each part, each equipment and each stage plays in the whole process. Compare that to how it works today. Most DZ in my area don't even offer AFF unless one tandem (SDD does, but not really, they discourage it, and you have to schedule in advance and only one of the days on any given weekend)... I have to drive two hours back and forth (FOUR hours) just to do a tandem and learned almost nothing new from skydiving than I already found out on Youtube.... when had I the correct materials and the right circumstances learn more in four minutes about skydiving than I would spend an entire day at the DZ.

Imagine if there was this transparent rendering of chute opening sequence complete with wind vector forces, instantaneous g and velocity and acc information, etc and newcomers can visualize and actually "see" (or see through) moment by moment everything and finally understand mentally exactly what is going on, why everything is the way it is, and how it works in tandem to accomplish the task of slowing down the fall...

As it is, I understand nothing can substitute actual experience... but it does seems like there COULD be more efficient ways to SUPPLEMENT learning through videos.... videos alone that are not meant to replace real skydiving and of course one would still have to pass tests and get a license to jump... so I don't see any legal reason why there can't be a comprehensive online video tutorial that teaches the mechanics of skydiving... from how to pack a chute, how to clear malfunctions, how to do inspections.... everything that can be learned from "real life" instructor can be shown in HD in the comfort of one's home on video.. I mean it is not like the instructor is telepathic and feeds the students knowledge through physic powers... everything is audio/visual anyway...

In fact I would argue that as supplementary knowledge video instruction could be very effective... not only because of its potential clarity, (with today's HD resolution it is better than being there in person!) but also it has value as reference that can be replayed again and again... Not everyone (especially new people starting out) has the time or luxury of driving to the DZ whenever they feel like it to get an instructor to explain something to them in person....

I'm not suggesting that AFF can be replaced. Just like no matter what we still will always have driving tests to get a drivers license... its not like someday the govt will allow us to hook up a G27 wheel and pedals to a PS3, play the equivalent of Gran Turismo/ iracing and pass a virtual driving test, snap a pic with a webcam and ship us a drivers license...

But good supplementary video instruction through all stages of skydiving can go a long way to bring people up to speed and novices to intermediate or even expert in much shorter time.

I used to play a game called "B.A.S.E. Jumping" on the PC (no longer published?) but it was too simplistic...it never simulated many of the details and functional aspects and procedural aspects of skydiving... Too bad there isn't a game (which also serves as a simulator) out there that accurately simulates from at least a physical and systems standpoint all points of the standard skydiving experience complete wit random failures, errors, malfunctions and giving us the ability to correct for them, etc...

Just like no matter how good graphics cards get and etc no "sex" simulator is going to teach you the "real thing"... because force feedback, body part orientation, balance, coordination and rhyme cannot be taught in a video no matter how many megapixel, polygons, framerates, or whatever the resolution... a lot of the procedure, systems and functional aspects of skydiving and the mechanisms themselves can be encapsulated on video... everything else is merely practice, practice, practice, but the theories, principles and academic knowledge itself can be easily learned by anyone willing to commit themselves to the activity.


(This post was edited by bochen280 on May 4, 2012, 7:47 PM)


steveorino  (D 26782)

May 4, 2012, 8:30 PM
Post #139 of 171 (1047 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Being a guy that is the reason I don't want to do tandem in the first place. I wouldn't mind doing it if I was a small petite girl... but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do...

being a TM I think YOU are far too concerned about being strapped to a guy. that says a lot about YOU. IMHO. TongueWink

In reply to:
and it is not even a real skydiving... I know control is an illusion, but if I'm going to get hurt I want to be responsible for hurting myself... not put my fate in some TM - no matter his level of experience.

Sure, landing by yourself has got to be safer than landing with a dude who has 1000s of landings with multiple wing loading. Crazy It is always entertaining reading stuff here!


bochen280

May 4, 2012, 8:42 PM
Post #140 of 171 (1041 views)
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Re: [steveorino] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Being a guy that is the reason I don't want to do tandem in the first place. I wouldn't mind doing it if I was a small petite girl... but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do...

being a TM I think YOU are far too concerned about being strapped to a guy. that says a lot about YOU. IMHO. TongueWink

In reply to:
and it is not even a real skydiving... I know control is an illusion, but if I'm going to get hurt I want to be responsible for hurting myself... not put my fate in some TM - no matter his level of experience.

Sure, landing by yourself has got to be safer than landing with a dude who has 1000s of landings with multiple wing loading. Crazy It is always entertaining reading stuff here!


Not really. I don't even like the camera man dude getting in my face I definitely don't feel comfortable strapped to another guy. A female TI would be another matter, but even so that would be weird.

Some people have larger personal space bubbles than others.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 4, 2012, 9:13 PM
Post #141 of 171 (1022 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Personal space bubble?
I don't think you get on a jump plane with one of those.
Maybe over the desert, but I hope not.


nigel99  (D 1)

May 4, 2012, 9:25 PM
Post #142 of 171 (1021 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Being a guy that is the reason I don't want to do tandem in the first place. I wouldn't mind doing it if I was a small petite girl... but seriously tandem is kinda gay for a guy to do...

being a TM I think YOU are far too concerned about being strapped to a guy. that says a lot about YOU. IMHO. TongueWink

In reply to:
and it is not even a real skydiving... I know control is an illusion, but if I'm going to get hurt I want to be responsible for hurting myself... not put my fate in some TM - no matter his level of experience.

Sure, landing by yourself has got to be safer than landing with a dude who has 1000s of landings with multiple wing loading. Crazy It is always entertaining reading stuff here!


Not really. I don't even like the camera man dude getting in my face I definitely don't feel comfortable strapped to another guy. A female TI would be another matter, but even so that would be weird.

Some people have larger personal space bubbles than others.

Skydiving isn't a good place to have a big space bubble. Heck if a female TI knew how you felt, some would even wear a straponLaugh

I'm interested to know what you expect out of jumping? Wait till you are crammed into a small plane doing exit after a couple of nude jumpersShockedAngelic

What many people don't realise and you appear to be one of them, is skydiving is fucking dangerous. This isn't American Airlines where warnings that a bag of peanuts may contain nuts are there to prevent litigation. Without proper mentoring and instruction you could be dead before you even enter the aircraft - literally. The guys that are there to hold your hand are there to try and keep you as safe as possible. Go and hang out at a busy dz for 6 months, you'll see a few broken bodies and maybe learn that this isn't Disneyland.


ghost47  (D License)

May 4, 2012, 9:31 PM
Post #143 of 171 (1018 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is there not (maybe there is, but I've looked and found none) 3d/cg animation that shows frame by frame how skydiving really works.... (a sort of "how stuff works" but in immense 3-dimensional detail) ... basically an Avatar like quality rendering of a virtual skydiver from the moment he packs and inspects his chute, to gearing up, to getting on the airplane to riding to altitude, to jumping out, stabilizing, then opening the chute, gliding down to approach, flaring, landing, taking off his equipment... basically showing the ENTIRE schedule of the quintessentially skydiving in all its glory... in 3d, rendered in real-time, to be replayed as often as one would like, from any perspective or angle, in any rendering mode, etc...
What's the market?

Say you do all of that, and you go to a dropzone. No one is going to let you jump unless you sit through AFF-1 anyway (or whatever student program they use). Why not? A) They have no way of knowing how much you actually absorbed in watching all that, how much you practiced at home, how much you actually understood. They need to have their instructors make a judgment, and they can only do that by observing you in class for a while.

B) Liability. No dropzone is going to risk going out of business to save you the $300 of going through AFF-1.

So what's the incentive for someone to create such an all-encompassing simulation for civilian use?

As technology progresses and virtual-reality simulators get better and cheaper, maybe what you're looking for will eventually be created.

But for now I don't think anyone will spend the money and time it takes to build something that is even close to as effective as AFF-1. And I don't think you'll learn enough from watching Youtube.


BobMoore  (D 13136)

May 4, 2012, 10:24 PM
Post #144 of 171 (1001 views)
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Re: [ghost47] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But for now I don't think anyone will spend the money and time it takes to build something that is even close to as effective as AFF-1. And I don't think you'll learn enough from watching Youtube.

He thinks he will, and that's all that is important to him.


toolbox  (D 18778)

May 4, 2012, 10:28 PM
Post #145 of 171 (997 views)
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Re: [steveorino] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm starting to think this guy is an up jumper who is just pranking are asses.
I must say it is getting very entertaining whether it's for real or not.
I'm laughing so hard I think I might be sore in the morning.
Do you think you could use a space bubble for a mini submarine or diving bell or something?


(This post was edited by toolbox on May 4, 2012, 10:32 PM)


Austintxflight

May 5, 2012, 7:30 AM
Post #146 of 171 (947 views)
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Re: [toolbox] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well he goes from saying he wishes he could just be given a video and a packed rig and allowed to figure it out on his own, to hedging and saying well internet learning can supplement.

Still there are no nobel prize winners who went to Devry.

Where the world is today in 2012 face to face instruction still trumps internet learning for a variety of reasons.

Also the whole video game thing, the cost to develop it would be too high, would not justify the possible income.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 5, 2012, 7:41 AM
Post #147 of 171 (944 views)
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Re: [toolbox] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

If this is Funks, this is right up there with his "girl" posts.
SlySlySly


jclalor  (B 33202)

May 5, 2012, 10:17 AM
Post #148 of 171 (923 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't sell yourself short, tandem skydives are serious business, and not everyone has the requisite aptitude needed to excell in this sport.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roXURlkRzhU

Pay close attention to his "impact".


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 5, 2012, 2:05 PM
Post #149 of 171 (906 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

When a dz does a tandem, I bet that the profit margin is a fair bit better than $20. So if you don't charge the student and still pay the TI $10, you aren't losing money per se, just making a slimmer margin. So the dz takes a small hit while the TI gets compensated for bringing in that extra $400 in revenue.

Is it REALLY necessary for the dz to charge the student in order to be able to compensate the TI? In the grand scheme of things does it make THAT much of a difference. I'm going to guess that it is WAY less than 1 in 10 that fall into this category.
.

Perhaps the extra "fat tax" is not about the DZ's bottom line (at least not in any direct way)... perhaps the extra pittance is merely a "tip", a token symbolic gesture the DZ makes to the TI/TM to show appreciation of them taking on the heavier people? And like all emotional gestures, to make it count this has to be publicized and not a behind the doors allocation. This is perhaps the real reason it is not "priced in" by a flat rate. By charging heavy people more and doing it directly and in an open manner, it leaves less room for TI/TM to say "no" and emotionally pressures them into saying "YES". It gives the heavy customer more "power" because now they can say they "paid" for it. Basically, the heavy dude now can (indirectly) insinuate that the TI/TM is a "wuss" if they rejected him/her due to weight issues or concerns when they were under the hard limit. Even though the extra fee is not equitable to the extra risk. After running some simplistic numbers it now seems more like an emotional play on the TI/TM than a full and straightforward "financial" compensation of any proportional or equitable means. This tax is probably less about the DZ trying to recuperate lost margins from heavy people than appeasing and making an emotional appeal backed by a token symbolic financial gesture to the TI/TM to take them on at all, otherwise like you said the DZ is out the $300 completely. Perhaps the heavier people should be THANKING the DZ for this physiologically manipulative (just my theory) tax that compels the TI/TM to take on heavy people that they otherwise would turn down?


If $20 is going to convince a TI to take someone that they would normally turn down for safety reasons, this is NOT the TI that you want to be jumping with IMO.. But my opinion on the matter, how do I put it? "Means shit" I think it was. Only way to know for sure is to ask someone with 5K+ tandem jumps.. :)


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 5, 2012, 4:09 PM
Post #150 of 171 (888 views)
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Re: [Ron] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't reply to much of your last post because I gave you the last word.. but inside I am LMFAO because you simply don't understand how much the experience in the field that you have more of than me (doing tandems) has really no bearing on what my opinion was about (pricing structures). I really don't think many dzo's give a shit what people have to go through to get the job done. What they care about is how much money they can get out of the finished product. It's just business after all. (To most of them anyway).

Like I said.. as far as I'm concerned, your opinion on the matter means exactly shit to me, mostly because you are arguing about something totally different because somehow you felt your awesomeness was being challenged by me saying that doing tandems isn't hard. Which in fact I never said.

But I do have to say this piece, because you did just laid down a personal attack on my character.

In reply to:
Quote:

The fact I offered you a deal and you negotiated in bad faith and then even backed out says all I need to know about you.

You offered me a deal 3 times with having a clue what you were getting in to because you have NO CLUE who you are talking to and you weren't expecting me to actually take it. I didn't "negotiate" anything. You did ALL the negotiating. It was actually only when you found out that my total sum of tandem pack jobs to sport pack jobs was going to be $0 that YOU backed out on the deal that YOU were offering. That was just YOU being stupid. I passed on the deal a couple times, but you kept on shoving it down my throat to prove a point.

I've got a bridge I can sell you...

And you also have said all that I need to know about you. So piss off. Really.. just piss off.

Sorry.. I went and gave you that present... and you took it. And then I went and took it back. I guess I negotiated the last word thing in bad faith. My bad. Wink

Here, now you can have it for real.... go ahead. It's ok. Take it. Here, I'll throw it on the floor in front of you and I won't look. It's ok boy.... *looking away*

pffft


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 5, 2012, 6:54 PM
Post #151 of 171 (1544 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

It was funny at first, and had some good points on both sides - now it is just distraction Unsure


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 5, 2012, 7:22 PM
Post #152 of 171 (1534 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It was funny at first, and had some good points on both sides - now it is just distraction Unsure

Best point made in this thread so far.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 5, 2012, 8:25 PM
Post #153 of 171 (1523 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

I like beer.
Cool


toolbox  (D 18778)

May 5, 2012, 9:05 PM
Post #154 of 171 (1518 views)
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Re: [normiss] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I like beer.
Cool


Now thats the best point I've heard in this thread.LaughLaughLaugh


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 5, 2012, 9:26 PM
Post #155 of 171 (1513 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is there not (maybe there is, but I've looked and found none) 3d/cg animation that shows frame by frame how skydiving really works.

I guess it largely comes down to money. Someone could put hundreds of hours (and/or lots of money) into a making a professional video but where's the return for them?

There have been the occasional commercial skydiving videos over the years on how to fly one's body for relative work (formations), or how to sitfly, etc. And a very few well organized, big DZ's may have little videos on aspects of their student jumps. For example, Skydive Elsinore has little computer graphics / cartoon videos of each of the AFF levels, that anyone can watch on their web site. Most DZ's will just have printed procedures taped to the DZ wall or in a booklet. Another example is packing: There are paid videos out there, and free videos too (eg, from gear company PD) on packing. Yes it is hard to find things like that on one's own and know whether a source is any good for you, if you are new to all this.

Not to say that some further consolidation or standardization can't happen.

In a way it is like other learning: You can learn physics by picking up books and self teaching. But for most people (other than the top 5%) it sure helps to pay for classes, and have a professor and teaching assistants to help you through the process. When you have the framework provided by interaction with experienced humans, then it is really beneficial to also 'hit the books' and do some self learning.

And where physical skills are involved, whether skydiving or learning to machine metal, then it is even more important to learn from other people and practice and be critiqued, as such things just can't be learned from a book.

If you want to see if you can learn about skydiving from a book, try reading the USPA SIM (available for download free). Lots and lots of info there, but trying to process all that without interacting with instructors may be tough.

Another point is that a lot of programs are designed for some 'average' person and adjusted from there. Some DZ's may want everyone to do a tandem first, to avoid those really nasty level 1 AFF's where a student just can't cope with it. Maybe you aren't in that bottom 5%, and it is a waste of time for you personally, but there's no way the instructors can know ahead of time that you are in the top 95% or indeed the top 10%. Over multiple jumps, if you have great skills, then sure you'll progress quicker and spend less money than someone having problems. So you'll still come out ahead, even if that one tandem did nothing for you.

If one does a tandem, with the intention of continuing on, one should tell the DZ & instructor, so they can add in some extra learning -- for example, you can get some good coaching on how to fly the canopy to evaluate winds, approach the DZ, and fly the circuit.


(This post was edited by pchapman on May 5, 2012, 9:27 PM)


Abedy  (D 10153)

May 6, 2012, 1:23 AM
Post #156 of 171 (1490 views)
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Re: [jclalor] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roXURlkRzhU

Pay close attention to his "impact".

Nice video, thanks for posting. This man is great and so is his TI.

BTW: They seem to have sort of toggles on the pax's jumpsuit so the pax can lift their legs more easily by pulling them high? Nice idea, especially if someone is a little older or weaker.
They have something similar at Skycentre Spa, IIRC.


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 6, 2012, 4:26 AM
Post #157 of 171 (1485 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

If they just let students watch a video and go skydiving without any formal instruction from an experienced instructor they would literally have to hire a paramedic crew and coroner on staff. Most people wouldn't just get it like you think you would. I don't think I'm really exaggerating. It would put others in the air at risk as well.



You can go skydiving without having to take any sort of course. All you need is a rig, a plane, and a pilot. Smile

Actually, if you could figure out how to take off in a plane from a video, and you don't care about doing a second skydive, I guess all you need is a plane.

Even Johnny needed in air instruction on how to use his legs...


sparkie  (D License)

May 7, 2012, 5:37 AM
Post #158 of 171 (1413 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If they just let students watch a video and go skydiving without any formal instruction from an experienced instructor they would literally have to hire a paramedic crew and coroner on staff.

maybe if they watched it several times they would be fine. I've heard of packers that could practically be TI's just by watching certified TI's at work!

Some people are just gifted i guess ;)


(This post was edited by sparkie on May 7, 2012, 5:39 AM)


packerboy  (C 34282)

May 7, 2012, 8:34 AM
Post #159 of 171 (1380 views)
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Re: [sparkie] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Meh, I'll giver a go!


For enough money anything is possible... ;)

Edited to add:

PS: No fatties please. That actually looks hard.


(This post was edited by packerboy on May 7, 2012, 9:06 AM)


theonlyski  (D License)

May 7, 2012, 3:12 PM
Post #160 of 171 (1337 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
PS: No fatties please. That actually looks hard.

They're actually pretty stable, gravity works in your favor.


Austintxflight

May 7, 2012, 8:41 PM
Post #161 of 171 (1307 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2cOe83IRjk&list=FLtYOt_cTEsmXOvgkj19YX5A&feature=mh_lolz


thats whats happening


normiss  (D 28356)

May 8, 2012, 5:28 AM
Post #162 of 171 (1270 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Awesome free flying.
The music makes me want to stab my ears.Unsure


ruanjjoubert  (B 2813)

May 13, 2012, 1:09 AM
Post #163 of 171 (1185 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For solo landings, how does one "know" the timing of the flare,

For students the flaring usually starts at about your body length from the ground.
Don't know if it's different with tandem progression though. We don't have that in SA.
With AFF and Static Line Progression an instructor is on the ground showing the student when to turn and flare with batons. It works pretty well.. IF the student is watching the baton man. They sometimes forget.. and then they end up in a tree somewhere in town. :)
In the end, if you're skydiving you're gonna get hurt some time, just sucks that it happend on your first jump. Now rest the foot and get back in the air!


shibu  (C 42074)

Jul 16, 2012, 5:12 PM
Post #164 of 171 (1018 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not fat or rotund, just heavy...

...that coupled with the fact that I've never been a very flexible person (in terms of legs, stretching, arms, etc).

In reply to:

So...you're overweight & out of shape.

...but then again,~

The harness was too tight, the helmet too small, the goggles too loose, the TM too short, the altitude to little -Shocked

~Lucky ya survived at all! WinkSly

lmfao


shibu  (C 42074)

Jul 16, 2012, 5:25 PM
Post #165 of 171 (1011 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If they just let students watch a video and go skydiving without any formal instruction from an experienced instructor they would literally have to hire a paramedic crew and coroner on staff. Most people wouldn't just get it like you think you would. I don't think I'm really exaggerating. It would put others in the air at risk as well.

I agree. I can't believe no body posted this sooner. Landings were the hardest part of the course for me... probably bc I realized what could go wrong.

The same way you don't realize how fast the freefall time goes you may not be as good at timing your landings as you think.

If it doesn't look that hard, it is only bc you are not the one doing it.


shibu  (C 42074)

Jul 17, 2012, 6:24 AM
Post #166 of 171 (935 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
....Landing didn't seem a big deal at all until I hit the ground and broken/sprained/fractured my ankle really badly...

I hope your ankle is better now, but just out of curiosity, was your ankle sprained or fractured? They are not the same thing. I am guessing it was not so bad that you had to seek medical attention.

Also, did you ever jump again?


excaza  (C License)

Jul 17, 2012, 7:48 AM
Post #167 of 171 (905 views)
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Re: [shibu] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

His last login (and the last post in this thread until you bumped it) was in May, I don't think he's going to be responding any time soon.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 17, 2012, 5:06 PM
Post #168 of 171 (852 views)
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Re: [excaza] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
His last login (and the last post in this thread until you bumped it) was in May, I don't think he's going to be responding any time soon.

I'm also pretty sure it was an experienced jumper and poster having some fun.Sly


matt3sa  (D 29266)

Jul 17, 2012, 5:54 PM
Post #169 of 171 (838 views)
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Re: [bochen280] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

Im a Tandem Instructor and there are a lot of factors to consider here. The positioning of the harness (in your waste area) can either help or make it more difficult to lift your legs. Most of the time, position the hip sections of the harness closer to the front of the passenger. This puts them in a naturally seated position and makes lifting the legs much easier. There are however downfalls to this approach with people that have thicker legs or for lack of a better description a big ass. If you have thick legs or a larger sized rear end I typically slide the hip sections further towards the sides of the passenger. This makes for a better fit for these types of passengers, but certainly does make it difficult and sometimes impossible for passengers to lift their legs. Without seeing a video or photo of how the harness was positioned it would be difficult to tell.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 17, 2012, 10:15 PM
Post #170 of 171 (804 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Was 182/206 DZ for the most part up until they got a King Air last year...

......................................................................

When did Abbotsford get a King Air?

The last time I jumped in Abby, their runway was barely long enough for a Porter????


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jul 17, 2012, 10:26 PM
Post #171 of 171 (804 views)
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Re: [packerboy] 1st time tandem landing, broken ankle, would solo landing be easier? [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... IMO, and my disclaimer is that I am not an instructor. However I did work for one of the pioneers of the sport who invented IAD (Instructor Assisted Deployment ...
"

..................................................................

IAD was invented in one of the Southern States (Georgia?), about a week after Bill Booth invented the throw-out pilot-chute.
"Parachutist" magazine published an article about IAD, circa 1977.
Gananoque started doing IAD in 1979, then they sold some IAD student rigs to Waterville, Nova Scotia circa 1984 and by then Claresholm, Alberta was doing IAD.
The last major "bug" of IAD was perfected in Beiseker, Alberta around 1990.



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