Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
How to get over a bad jump?

 


cheese1178

Apr 23, 2012, 9:20 PM
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How to get over a bad jump? Can't Post

I'm an AFF student with 12 jumps (3 tandems and 9 AFF jumps). I started the program in March and have been going almost every weekend to the drop zone and supplementing with wind tunnel time (just some basic stability/belly flying work).

Ever since my C level, I have really fallen in love with the sport. I was no longer feeling the nerves when I took my feet off the plane threshold and stepped into the air. I loved achieving stability, building my skills and just seeing everything up there

Well, I went in last Sat to do my E-1 level. I had been practicing my barrel rolls on the ground, watching videos and reading my SIM. I felt confident and so excited to try it and be closer to graduating AFF.

I exited out of the plane and achieved stability. I pulled one arm to the side and my roll felt very very messy. I felt myself spin, spin and then spin harder. I didn't realize how fast I was spinning until I tried to pull my arm up to look at my altimeter and realized it was pinned to my side. My instructor flew by me in an attempt to help but I was spinning way too fast for her to get to. I punched out my hips into an arch and when I felt myself slow down, I put an arm over the chest and flipped over. I was at 6k, waved off and pulled. I navigated back to the landing area, landed on my feet next to my target.

I didn't panic in the moment and I am so grateful that I was able to arch and recover. However, after seeing the video footage of my dive I feel sick. I was literally spinning and doing 360's at around 80 mph (at least 50 360's). Yes, I am so grateful to be alive. I am so grateful I didn't panic during moment. Everyone at the drop zone keeps telling me that I did the right thing and most people would panic or pass out. Everyone keeps telling me that I had an awesome recovery. But I wouldn't have had to have an awesome recovery if I just did the barrel roll right in the first place. I wouldn't have endangered my life and my instructor's life if I had just done the dive flow right. It really didn't hit me until the next day that the situation could have gone VERY ugly and I keep hearing "what if" scenarios in my head.

I love the sport. I really want to develop my skills and become good at it. But I'm also scared now and all of the fears I didn't have before are startint to appear. How do you get over the stress from a bad jump? Any advice on moving forward?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 23, 2012, 9:31 PM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I love the sport. I really want to develop my skills and become good at it

Good attitude.

Now read between the lines. What it says it that you want to become good at it, but that implies that you are not currently good at it, and with 12 jumps, that's about right.

Nobody, except for yourself, expects you to be good at it at this stage. Ease up on yourself, and realize that you will make mistakes, then make the best of it and learn something.

The good news (really good) is that all you did was screw up a useless freefall skill. You will never need to do a barrell roll to save your life, and in reality the only reason they teach them (and front/back loops) is so you get the experience of leaving the arch, and then recovering the arch when you're done. In that sense, you achieved the goal, you went unstable and then got stable again.

Beyond that, you pulled, on time, and with stability. You backed that up with good accuracy and a good landing. Call it a success, and make another jump.


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 23, 2012, 9:35 PM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like you had a great jump!

You had a stability issue.
You identified it.
You corrected it.
You realized you were outta time and also again responded appropriately.

Maybe pay closer attention to altitude awareness?
The stability and control and movement can take years.
You'll keep learning and improving and learning and improving and oh shit! i funneled that jump! BEER!!!

Sounds like you're progressing quite normally.
I've been told some of the best skydivers are those that struggled the most to start with.

Unless you have mad skillz of course.

Relax more. Jump more. Celebrate life more.
Enjoy your jumps.
Cool


BobMoore  (D 13136)

Apr 23, 2012, 9:37 PM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Everyone keeps telling me that I had an awesome recovery. But I wouldn't have had to have an awesome recovery if I just did the barrel roll right in the first place. I wouldn't have endangered my life and my instructor's life if I had just done the dive flow right. It really didn't hit me until the next day that the situation could have gone VERY ugly and I keep hearing "what if" scenarios in my head.

I love the sport. I really want to develop my skills and become good at it. But I'm also scared now and all of the fears I didn't have before are startint to appear. How do you get over the stress from a bad jump? Any advice on moving forward?

I have thousands of jumps and decades in the sport. There are still occasionally jumps where something doesn't go as I planned. Don't stress yourself out. If everybody tells you that you had an awesome recovery (and your instructors are saying that too) believe them and move on.

I'll tell you a little secret. A barrel roll has no purpose whatsoever in the sport of skydiving. It is used during training for you to learrn that you can go unstable and then recover by yourself.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Apr 23, 2012, 10:12 PM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like a good jump to me. Sure, you made a couple of mistakes in freefall, but you recognized them, and corrected them. Sounds like you had a good canopy flight, pattern and landing - what's really to complain or feel bad about?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2012, 2:59 AM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

You done good. Simple as that.

I don't know what else your dive flow was to include other than a barrel roll but regardless....you accomplished the main goal of the jump.

Stable-unstable-stable-pull at your assigned altitude-good landing.

What instructor wouldn't be happy with that?

Nobody expects perfection. Not even the big boys are perfect...even though some of them my try to convince you that they are.
LaughLaugh

Question: Were you really spinning or was your instructor orbiting around you?
LaughLaughLaugh


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 24, 2012, 3:00 AM)


dthames  (B 37674)

Apr 24, 2012, 4:02 AM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would guess that if the same thing happens on the next jump that you would recover sooner. If you agree this is the case, use that to bolster your confidence.

There is an article in one of the recent Parachutist magazines about the mental battle to deal with experiences like this. Reading it and practicing what is suggested might also help.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 24, 2012, 4:09 AM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you in the UK by any chance???.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Apr 24, 2012, 6:32 AM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe it's not bad to find something a little scary in skydiving, if everything has been going well. Smile

Student spins do have a small bit of risk of something bad happening, and a spin on the back somewhat more so. (Nobody wants a student to not pull and have an AAD reserve fire very low, with line twists, and maybe a hard, bruising opening if on their back, stuff like that, where the margins before something really bad happens get smaller and smaller.)

Your confidence should be able to go back up because:

You were able to recover before the proper pull time.
You should now be able to recognize any spin sooner -- like right after it starts -- and recover earlier, which is also easier when the spin isn't going as fast.

If one can't get out of a spin, there are options other than doing nothing. Talk to your instructors again about what to do if one gets to normal pull altitude while unstable, or one totally loses track of altitude while unstable. The general rule in skydiving is to deploy a canopy at one's planned minimum pull altitude whatever one's stability. But again the details are for your instructors to teach.

You can be reassured that a spin starting from going on one's back during a failed barrel roll can be fixed pretty easily and quickly by standard recovery techniques like arching or also bringing an arm in to flip over.

Plenty of students have had spin problems when learning to do turns or to recover from a maneuver, but the problems are all easily fixable with basic freefall skills (even if it takes some people longer than others to do so). It is easy for a student to spin if they end up on their back, forget to arch, and twist their body.

Notice that nobody yet has even bothered to coach you on how to do the barrel roll right. Learning to recover from instability is a more important lesson than the perfect barrel roll.

Overcoming fears is a pretty common issue when starting skydiving, and there are plenty of threads scattered about on dz.com about doing so. Knowing that you know what to do, to fix or avoid a problem, is a part of overcoming fear.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Apr 24, 2012, 6:34 AM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

First off, remember that in spite of things going wrong, you kept your wits about you, recovered, and deployed high enough. In that way, the dive was a success.
As to what went wrong, a couple of things. You did your barrol roll using a technique that is very commonly taught, even though it's wrong. I see this all the time, especially with those that are trained AFF. The "just pull one arm in" method is a way of getting off your back onto your belly, but is NOT the proper way to do a barrel roll. A barrel roll should involve you turning your body symetricly around a line going from your head down your spine. To do this, you need to bring in one arm while at the same time bringing in your leg, bringing both out again about the time you get a little over 90 degrees through. If this is all you do, you will end up on your back, as you did. To complete the manuver, you need to then bring in your opposing arm and leg about the time you end up 180 (back to earth) through the roll, going back to neutral position just past 270 degrees through. This is a barrel roll. Think symetry.
The "pull one arm in" method will actually put you kind of head down rolling on to your back, which is what happened to you. You started wpinning because you weren't symetrical on your back.
That all being said, you acomplished the goal of the dive. You got unstable and recovered.


beowulf  (C License)

Apr 24, 2012, 6:44 AM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is always something to learn from on every jump. It helps to acknowledge the things you did right. You didn't panic. You were able to recover from the spin by yourself with out any help.

Just remember if you aren't making any mistakes then you are not trying hard enough. Making mistakes is part of learning. As you learn from your mistakes you will make fewer and fewer mistakes and will need to push yourself harder to learn more. Just relax and keep working at it.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 24, 2012, 6:59 AM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My instructor flew by me in an attempt to help but I was spinning way too fast for her to get to.

Just a side note, if you are in the US, or training at a USPA DZ, there's a chance that you are jumping with a Coach, and not an Instructor at this stage.

The two ratings have different levels of responsibility, and different levels of training to earn each one. A jumper with a Coach rating would not have been trained to stop a spin or deploy a parachute for a student, where an Instructor is trained to do both of those.

On a coach-level jump, the inteded role of the coach is to observe and report, and the jumper is expected to complete the skydive on their own. There are times when an Instructor is tapped to do a coach-level jump, and in those cases it's up to the instructor's discretion to intervene and act as an Instructor and not a Coach, but in the case that a Coach is tapped for a coach level jump, they are not trained, expected, nor advised to interveve.

Stopping a spin or pulling for a student can present a significant risk for both jumpers if done improperly. moving forward, make sure you are clear on who you are jumping with, and what they may, or may not, be able to do for you.

I'm not suggesting that you were waiting for, or expecting, any sort of help, it sounds like you took care of yourself. Often time the shift from working with Instructrors to working with Coaches is not explained to students, and I think it's something you should be aware of.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 24, 2012, 7:12 AM
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Re: [davelepka] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just a side note, if you are in the US, or training at a USPA DZ, there's a chance that you are jumping with a Coach, and not an Instructor at this stage.

I sincerely hope not. It seems to me from what he wrote that they are following the ISP in the SIM. An E-1 jump is an instructor jump. He has to pass that before being cleared for self supervision in freefall and moving on to coached jumps.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Apr 24, 2012, 7:31 AM
Post #14 of 41 (3186 views)
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But I wouldn't have had to have an awesome recovery if I just did the barrel roll right in the first place.

Last Saturday I did two jumps. There were over 10k jumps experience, 70 years in sport, two AFF ratings and multiple world records on the three way that we took off a Cessna 182

We funneled the exit on the "practice" jump. Flipped it over without an issue, but still. We should be better than that!

And then.... we funneled the exit on the important skydive - our wedding jump.

No big deal. We were still smiling. Smile

Moral of the story? Any skydive you all walk back to the packing area from was a good one. Did you learn something? Then it was even more of a success.


5.samadhi

Apr 24, 2012, 8:24 AM
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Re: [BobMoore] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'll tell you a little secret. A barrel roll has no purpose whatsoever in the sport of skydiving. It is used during training for you to learrn that you can go unstable and then recover by yourself.
actually its a great move to get into a backtrack while tracking (half barrel roll).


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 24, 2012, 8:46 AM
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Re: [5.samadhi] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

and they're off!!!

Unimpressed


PiLFy  (A License)

Apr 24, 2012, 1:59 PM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

This post needs the video. Cool

Veni, Vidi, Vici... So, what's the problem?

Get back on the horse.


(This post was edited by PiLFy on Apr 24, 2012, 2:00 PM)


devildog  (C 40302)

Apr 24, 2012, 2:56 PM
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Re: [PiLFy] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Get back on the horse.
Not that this was a bad jump, but for any bad jump, I find this works the best :)


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Apr 24, 2012, 4:07 PM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

How?? debrief it then log it. Unsure pack the parachute. Unimpressed get back on the manifest.Shocked get in the plane.Smile make a skydive.Cool do your best.Laugh just like That !!Wink jmy a 3914 d 12122


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2012, 5:49 PM
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Re: [normiss] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
and they're off!!!

Unimpressed
LaughLaughLaugh
Are you gonna tell him or should I?
LaughLaughLaugh


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 24, 2012, 8:32 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

They're not gonna like our advice.
They have mad skillz.
How else do you check on top of yourself before opening???
LaughLaughLaugh

Hey! Young up-jumpers! YES YOU!!!
No barrel rolls to check your airspace.
Wait till you have thousands of jumps.
And mad skillz.

Seriously.

[/thread drift / soapbox rant]


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 25, 2012, 2:43 AM
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Re: [normiss] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
and they're off!!!


D'uhhhh!!!. (as in Moose, from the Archie comics).

But seriously, where is this crap coming from??.


(This post was edited by obelixtim on Apr 25, 2012, 2:44 AM)


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 25, 2012, 11:22 AM
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Re: [PiLFy] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This post needs the video. Cool

This.

For educational purposes, I would love to see the vid.


firstime  (B 28972)

Apr 26, 2012, 6:28 PM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am going to put this into the bowling thingy. I have been bowling my whole life and in order to practice I would have the bowling alley shut down the pin setter and just throw the ball for hours until I got it right. Yes I could practice 3 or 4 hrs . This sport you have 1 minute of practice per jump (freefall) it takes time and try to get videos from your jump buddies. you are going to screw alot of jumps up, learn and enjoy (laugh at yourself). Just be safe


ixlr82  (C 33491)

Apr 26, 2012, 9:20 PM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

As someone overly qualified in beating myself up...these words to live by:

Thanks for the jump. I had fun. I learned a lot.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Apr 27, 2012, 12:51 AM
Post #26 of 41 (1205 views)
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's not a bad jump.

A bad jump involves an ambulance or worse.


cheese1178

Apr 27, 2012, 9:21 AM
Post #27 of 41 (1171 views)
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi All: Thank you all for the wise words, support and motiviation to get back up there. I'm getting back on the horse...err, back on the plane tomorrow and will start off with just a relaxed dive with a solo float exit (no tricks, barrel rolls, etc). I just want to feel the wind and just enjoy the experience. If there is time, I'll attempt E-1 again. Hopefully, my AFF instructor from last week will be working tomorrow and I can get a copy of the video from last week.

Arch, arch, arch :-)


cheese1178

Apr 28, 2012, 11:07 PM
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Re: [dontlikemustard] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, I got back in the plane today and did a relaxed solo dive with my AFF instructor. It was great! That was definitely the medicine I needed to calm the nerves from last week's jump. For curious minds, below is the link to last week's failed E-1 level. Definitely learned a lot from that experience.

http://youtu.be/RyPUcHqqa8w


cheese1178

Apr 28, 2012, 11:10 PM
Post #29 of 41 (1133 views)
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Btw, just wanted to add a disclaimer that I am not promoting that anyone should try to spin out like this on purpose. It totally and utterly sucks. But I am definitely promoting that one should arch during any point of instability :-) For my fellow AFF students, yes, our instructors are right. Arching works :-)


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 29, 2012, 12:20 AM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, I got back in the plane today and did a relaxed solo dive with my AFF instructor. It was great! That was definitely the medicine I needed to calm the nerves from last week's jump. For curious minds, below is the link to last week's failed E-1 level. Definitely learned a lot from that experience.

http://youtu.be/RyPUcHqqa8w

thanks. its scary how quick you went into that spin! did you try to arch right away, or did you lose control for a bit and then started arching?


(This post was edited by dontlikemustard on Apr 29, 2012, 12:20 AM)


dthames  (B 37674)

Apr 29, 2012, 4:11 AM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for sharing the video.


cheese1178

Apr 29, 2012, 7:12 AM
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Re: [dontlikemustard] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

No prob. Glad I could share the footage. In my head during the moment, I thought I became unstable, did a few spins and arched right away but after watching the video, obviously I didn't as I was spinning for around 30 seconds.

After watching the video footage for the first time, I wanted to crap in my pants and the doubts started to happen (I suck. That could have been ugly. I should have arched way sooner). But I've decided to take the POV that someone mentioned upthread "Thanks for the jump. I learned alot". At least this experience has taught me to recognize what a spin feels like and when it (or any other instability happens), I'll remember to arch ASAP. :-)


ixlr82  (C 33491)

Apr 29, 2012, 10:08 PM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Holy crap! After seeing the video I just about shit 'my' pants. But you know what, it changes nothing. You recovered with plenty of altitude, you realized and learned through actual experience the value of arching, and now you have this crazy video to share in years to come. But please, don't do that again! And reread your own last post and think about how important altitude awareness is and how, under stress, how easy it is to lose that awareness.


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 30, 2012, 8:16 AM
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Re: [ixlr82] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

is it more difficult to physically do the arch in those situations? or is it just a matter of not panicking and doing it?

what im trying to say is, did you not arch right away because you panicked or because you were not able to?


cheese1178

Apr 30, 2012, 8:39 AM
Post #35 of 41 (1026 views)
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Re: [dontlikemustard] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm fortunate that I didn't feel panic in the moment. I think I didn't arch instantaneously as I was thrown off by not doing my barrel roll correctly and not recognizing right away that I was in a spin. Instead of keeping my body loose and relaxed, I ended up tensing (big no no per my instructors), which caused me to spin faster. It took a little more work to get my hips into a strong arch at that speed but (as I was able to stabilize myself) it's doable.


(This post was edited by cheese1178 on Apr 30, 2012, 8:39 AM)


dthames  (B 37674)

May 18, 2012, 8:05 PM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

This can't compete with Cheese, but I tried.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s61DBgD3JG4


skypagan  (D 15493)

Jun 10, 2012, 4:37 PM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

You have just entered the realm of being a skydiver and not a student. You did not perform what you attempted and had it go sideways. you resolved the issue and performed what every AFFI like myself loves to see BACK TO THE BASICS!!!!! Good job. Now it is decision time, are you willing to go there again and put yourself there again pushing your personal flight envelope and learning. FEAR IS YOUR FRIEND, use it to learn. TERROR is the ENEMY. Terror is fear sublimated and you freeze. That is NOT what happened here. Make this most personal decision by yourself. If you choose to continue, give it 100%. Blue Skies


FreefallSnoopy

Jun 14, 2012, 1:13 PM
Post #38 of 41 (682 views)
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, the video really makes it quite clear how bad that was doesn't it ha. Glad you made it outta that one. But for future reference, maybe you can learn to do that on purpose, would be a pretty cool move haha


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Jun 15, 2012, 11:44 AM
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I've never seen a spin that severe - my heart was in my mouth. But nor have I ever seen a recovery like that on a student video. Seriously awesome recovery - although you're probably fed up of hearing that.

Can see your instructor fighting to stay up with you. A body spinning like that seems to create a 'helicopter' effect, which makes it all the harder to get to you.

Anyway, I'd say your barrel roll achieved its purpose, and then some. That's probably the worst freefall trouble you'll ever be in, and although sooner might have been better, once you'd made up your mind you banged right out of it. Good job! Cool


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jun 17, 2012, 11:28 AM
Post #40 of 41 (546 views)
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Re: [cheese1178] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm fortunate that I didn't feel panic in the moment. I think I didn't arch instantaneously as I was thrown off by not doing my barrel roll correctly and not recognizing right away that I was in a spin. Instead of keeping my body loose and relaxed, I ended up tensing (big no no per my instructors), which caused me to spin faster. It took a little more work to get my hips into a strong arch at that speed but (as I was able to stabilize myself) it's doable.
While staying relaxed is very good advice when in stable freefall, it's not always the right answer.
You went over on your back on exit. A "strong, harder arch" is sometimes best. A more aggressive arch with arms and legs more rigidly in position would have kept you more stable on exit, and would have gotten you out of your spin and belly to earth much faster.


grasshoppergirl  (A 255824)

Jun 18, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #41 of 41 (484 views)
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Re: [ufk22] How to get over a bad jump? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for posting the video cheese... I'm a current AFF student so find this stuff helpful. ufk22 thanks also for the info on the previous page re: tweaking body position going into barrel roll.



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