Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea.

 


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 11, 2012, 4:20 PM
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Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. Can't Post

I do. I'm tired of this go fast without consideration or training making the environment I play in more dangerous. I'm now more fearful of the parachute decent than the freefall or deployment.

I put my money where my mouth is this year. Went up in size, 88 to a 120, and selected a type that lets me float more so to place my self in the safest airspace for landing.


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 11, 2012, 4:28 PM
Post #2 of 87 (2551 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the last 5 years I went from a 170 to a 190 to a 210...

The 210 is loaded 1.2:1, I have my fun, I never get dirty and I figured that was the best way to hopefully get ANOTHER 30 some years in the sport!Wink


DaVinciflies

Apr 11, 2012, 4:30 PM
Post #3 of 87 (2545 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the last 5 years I went from a 170 to a 190 to a 210...

The 210 is loaded 1.2:1, I have my fun, I never get dirty and I figured that was the best way to hopefully get ANOTHER 30 some years in the sport!Wink

Until someone under a small canopy runs into the back of you...


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Apr 11, 2012, 4:30 PM
Post #4 of 87 (2542 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I upsized from 135 to a 150 about a year ago. Now alternating between 150 and a 170, depending on what is available on my school rack.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 11, 2012, 4:33 PM
Post #5 of 87 (2535 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

 Just go the whole hog and go bigger again, and you might get another 50 years...


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 11, 2012, 4:45 PM
Post #6 of 87 (2520 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In the last 5 years I went from a 170 to a 190 to a 210...

The 210 is loaded 1.2:1, I have my fun, I never get dirty and I figured that was the best way to hopefully get ANOTHER 30 some years in the sport!Wink

Until someone under a small canopy runs into the back of you...


It's a 210...came with a tail gunner! Cool


DaVinciflies

Apr 11, 2012, 4:48 PM
Post #7 of 87 (2509 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In the last 5 years I went from a 170 to a 190 to a 210...

The 210 is loaded 1.2:1, I have my fun, I never get dirty and I figured that was the best way to hopefully get ANOTHER 30 some years in the sport!Wink

Until someone under a small canopy runs into the back of you...


It's a 210...came with a tail gunner! Cool

I stand corrected!


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Apr 11, 2012, 5:08 PM
Post #8 of 87 (2469 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

my hand is raised...
i went from a Spectre 210 to a Spectre 230...about a year ago...
H P canopy swooping has only appealed to me, as a spectator sport....

I'm absolutely well fearful of the solid ground. Unsure and of contacting it at too high a rate of speed...or too incorrect an angle of approach...
But, to each his own. UnimpressedWink

The Main that i'm using now, has more square feet than my first apartment.....Cool
... upsize?? downsize?? why not just FIND, and stick with, the right size???

jmy
Attachments: spectre 230 007~1.jpg (145 KB)


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
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Apr 11, 2012, 5:08 PM
Post #9 of 87 (2468 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I didn't upsize, I just didn't downsize. I've had the same 170 for 11 years now (I could handle a 150 easily at my current weight). What I found interesting was the comment from a rig manufacturere at the Expo. I was looking at his rig and mentioned that it would never fit my canopy. He said, "well, someday you too will be able to use this size rig", indicating that maybe I was new to the sport. My reply; "I don't want to!". He seemed a little stunned.


(This post was edited by skymama on Apr 11, 2012, 5:09 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 11, 2012, 5:12 PM
Post #10 of 87 (2457 views)
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Re: [skymama] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I've had the same 170 for 11 years now.

"I don't want to!". He seemed a little stunned.

Good policy...If it ain't broke.....


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 11, 2012, 5:15 PM
Post #11 of 87 (2446 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In the last 5 years I went from a 170 to a 190 to a 210...

The 210 is loaded 1.2:1, I have my fun, I never get dirty and I figured that was the best way to hopefully get ANOTHER 30 some years in the sport!Wink

Until someone under a small canopy runs into the back of you...


It's a 210...came with a tail gunner! Cool

Heh!!.

But careful what you say. "Tail gunner" has another, very different meaning where I come from...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 11, 2012, 5:16 PM
Post #12 of 87 (2447 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just bought a second rig to replace my aging second Reflex. It's the first rig I've ever bought new that I bought specifically so it could hold a bigger main than I am planning on using with it, so I can upsize when this canopy wears out.


nigel99  (D 1)

Apr 11, 2012, 5:24 PM
Post #13 of 87 (2434 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the last 5 years I went from a 170 to a 190 to a 210...

The 210 is loaded 1.2:1, I have my fun, I never get dirty and I figured that was the best way to hopefully get ANOTHER 30 some years in the sport!Wink

But the 170 was loaded at 1:1 back then Tongue

I am fighting the downsizing bug but finding it hard.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Apr 11, 2012, 5:39 PM
Post #14 of 87 (2406 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

here is what's hard, my friend...
the Ground. Crazy

the ground is HARD and sometimes even Water is hard.ShockedUnimpressed.. but many times, the hardEST thing ( or things ) may be the HEADS of those who can become possessed with..... "the need for speed".... UnsureUnimpressedUnsure

safety first , and what the hell !! safety second too...!

jt


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Apr 11, 2012, 5:44 PM
Post #15 of 87 (2399 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've one from jumping a 75 to mainly jumping 120s. Iprer my 135 and 150 on no wind days!!


monkycndo  (D License)

Apr 11, 2012, 5:54 PM
Post #16 of 87 (2382 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I upsized my reserve and seldom put my 135 in the container. Slow canopies just mean yu get more airtime.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Apr 11, 2012, 5:56 PM
Post #17 of 87 (2379 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel like this thread would be more accurate if you guys all posted your wing loadings.

JP, if you were loading your 88 @ 2.5, you'd still be loading your 120 @ 1.8, that's still a pretty feisty canopy.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 11, 2012, 5:57 PM
Post #18 of 87 (2374 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
H P canopy swooping has only appealed to me, as a spectator sport....

I won medals in it, but have grown to see it as a sport that needs to be separate from the whole of skydiving.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 11, 2012, 5:59 PM
Post #19 of 87 (2372 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I feel like this thread would be more accurate if you guys all posted your wing loadings.

JP, if you were loading your 88 @ 2.5, you'd still be loading your 120 @ 1.8, that's still a pretty feisty canopy.

True, but 1.8 is closer to the 1.2ish that I find is the common wing loading among low(er) experienced skydivers then 2.5 is. It stresses me out a lot less to be flying in that smaller wing loading gap.

PS I think the next new rig is going to be 150's.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Apr 11, 2012, 6:01 PM)


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Apr 11, 2012, 6:12 PM
Post #20 of 87 (2344 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In all fairness, its a lot easier to upsize once you have had you fill of fun (or broken yourself) under a small super fast canopy. There are many many jumpers out there that want to experience that speed and responsive handling. Unfortunately it seems many of them are not willing to wait until they have the experience to handle them in every situation.
Hell, thinking of the Intentional Cutaway thread, I would love to do an intentional cutaway provided I could deploy and fly a sub-100 main just to see what it is like - I have NO interest in trying to land one (nor do I have the skills to do so), and I really dont care about doing an intentional cutaway (I already have 3 "for real" cutaways) - but I would do one just to see what the fuss is about with the small HP canopies (on an altitude hop and pop only, last out so I had time to fly and play and wasnt a danger to anyone else).
My point is, its easy to call for upsizing when you have already been on the small canopies and know what its all about.
Edit to add I have 20ish jumps on a Vengeance 170 loaded at 1.4, and I still have the canopy but it was fast enough to scare me (and I was smart enough to swap it out until I have more experience) - and I still want to know what the difference is between that and a canopy like a Velo loaded at 2.0+...


(This post was edited by crotalus01 on Apr 11, 2012, 6:18 PM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Apr 11, 2012, 6:31 PM
Post #21 of 87 (2318 views)
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Re: [skymama] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, I didn't upsize, I just didn't downsize.

This. Well, I went from a 230 7-cell to a 210 9-cell, but haven't budged since (and have no plans to). Reserves have always been 218s, and I just put together a 2nd rig with exactly the same 210/218 configuration. I'm happy where I am and have no plans to change.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 11, 2012, 6:43 PM
Post #22 of 87 (2298 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My point is, its easy to call for upsizing when you have already been on the small canopies and know what its all about.

I know. But setting the example is the best way I know how to use that experience I have to slow things down. We've been learning as we go this past few years, and I think that it's safe to say that there is a point at which the wing loading spread gets too big for everyone's safety.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Apr 11, 2012, 6:51 PM
Post #23 of 87 (2288 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

All true, but the genie is out of the lamp on this one. Despite your good example, many jumpers are going to want "that" experience of flying a 2.0+/and/or/sub-100 canopy.
Seems to me that the w/l spread is already too big for everyone's safety...


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Apr 11, 2012, 7:03 PM
Post #24 of 87 (2272 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just go the whole hog and go bigger again, and you might get another 50 years...

God! That'd make Twardo like... 160 years old? I'm sorry. Did I type that out loud? Wink

I've been looking for two larger canopies for both my rigs. I now jump a 135 Sabre and a 135 Stiletto. I'm looking for a couple 150 Stiletto's. I figure I'm old enough to get the senior discount, so, I'm old enough to upsize. Cool

... and, thanks for starting this thread.


flipper  (D 11524)

Apr 11, 2012, 7:20 PM
Post #25 of 87 (2255 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gone from Velo 84 to pulse 150 .... Will still jump the Velo but only when it suits


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Apr 11, 2012, 7:32 PM
Post #26 of 87 (1243 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Good post, JP.

I just downsized from a Velo 111 to a Velo 103. I must admit that at 51-years old I was considering a move in the other direction.

I won't pull punches. I like to swoop. I don't knock out 720's like my swoop comp kid, or even 540's, but I do typically make 180-270 degree turns to final down the beer line.

For the record I think it's important to understand the risks from both sides of the coin....

On one side, I took more than 20 years, 5,000+ jumps, and 6 high performance canopy changes to get where I am today in canopy choice at 2.1:1. I credit my conservative progression to the fact that I have never come close to a biff, let alone an injury.

On the other side, I recognize that my injury or death is always one jump away. Whether because I fuck up or because I smack a chunk of turbulent air while in a steep dive at 200 feet, there is always the possibility that I may put a dent in the ground on any skydive.

JP, you have my ear. Up-size? Maybe, but let's also talk about set-ups. It doesn't do us any good to increase square footage if it will only result in radical performance set-ups closer to the ground to accommodate hot swoops.

Much respect for opening the dialog.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Apr 11, 2012, 7:55 PM
Post #27 of 87 (1228 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I went from a 135 Stiletto to a 150 Stiletto 10 years ago. It's loaded 1.3 and I don't mind no wind days.

I hope to jump even longer than Twardo. Tongue


theplummeter  (C License)

Apr 11, 2012, 8:08 PM
Post #28 of 87 (1220 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been on the same canopy for a couple years now, and plan to stay on it indefinitely. The only thing I would like to do is upsize my reserve with an Optimum or Speed 2000.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 11, 2012, 8:13 PM
Post #29 of 87 (1217 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I went from a 135 Stiletto to a 150 Stiletto 10 years ago. It's loaded 1.3 and I don't mind no wind days.

I hope to jump even longer than Twardo. Tongue
I've been on my 135 Stiletto for 6 years and 800 jumps, no plan on moving smaller. But if i change canopies (no time soon) i might get off the Stiletto.


nigel99  (D 1)

Apr 11, 2012, 10:54 PM
Post #30 of 87 (1182 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
here is what's hard, my friend...
the Ground. Crazy

the ground is HARD and sometimes even Water is hard.ShockedUnimpressed.. but many times, the hardEST thing ( or things ) may be the HEADS of those who can become possessed with..... "the need for speed".... UnsureUnimpressedUnsure

safety first , and what the hell !! safety second too...!

jt

Very true. I went from jumping Sabre 2 rental gear, to a Sabre 1 of my own. It is really surprising how much difference in flight characteristics there are. The 1 turns very slowly in comparison. But I'll stick with 170's loaded at just over 1:1.


adamqbishop  (D 31570)

Apr 12, 2012, 12:04 AM
Post #31 of 87 (1163 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I up sized once from my Stiletto 89 to a Velo 98. No thanks, liked the shorter recovery arc on the Stiletto.




popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 12, 2012, 5:18 AM
Post #33 of 87 (1104 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
setting the example is the best way I know how to use that experience I have to slow things down. .
My hat is off to you, sir.
On behalf of the youngsters out here, your concern is appreciated.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 12, 2012, 5:27 AM
Post #34 of 87 (1094 views)
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Re: [skymama] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
W I was looking at his rig and mentioned that it would never fit my canopy. He said, "well, someday you too will be able to use this size rig", indicating that maybe I was new to the sport. My reply; "I don't want to!". He seemed a little stunned.

See one of the things we're fighting against with downsizing?
Even the manufacturers are telling people that downsizing is what they will be doing without having any knowledge of jumpers' skills, experience or abilities.

It's almost like it's a requirement or something to fly a hot rod.

Young jumpers can get in trouble all by themselves without others trying to speed up the process.
Unsure


Jalien  (A License)

Apr 12, 2012, 7:41 AM
Post #35 of 87 (1059 views)
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Re: [flipper] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Gone from Velo 84 to pulse 150 .... Will still jump the Velo but only when it suits"

Isn't this in some ways more dangerous than just continuing to jump the velo? Depending on your jump numbers etc, you will become less current on the smaller canopy, and less familiar with its characteristics. I understand that currency is almost as significant as jump numbers in this sport? [usual newbie disclaimer etc]


flipper  (D 11524)

Apr 12, 2012, 8:38 AM
Post #36 of 87 (1008 views)
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Re: [Jalien] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Could be seen that way - when I have my Velo head on - I re fresh and get current - I dont just throw it on and go big


Rick  (D 28557)

Apr 12, 2012, 8:47 AM
Post #37 of 87 (998 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Well, I didn't upsize, I just didn't downsize.

This. Well, I went from a 230 7-cell to a 210 9-cell, but haven't budged since (and have no plans to). Reserves have always been 218s, and I just put together a 2nd rig with exactly the same 210/218 configuration. I'm happy where I am and have no plans to change.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I am in this camp. Been jumping my Spectre 170 for a loooooong time and have no plans to downsize.

edited to add:I am loading it just under 1.3:1


(This post was edited by Rick on Apr 12, 2012, 8:50 AM)


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Apr 12, 2012, 8:56 AM
Post #38 of 87 (986 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do. I'm tired of this go fast without consideration or training making the environment I play in more dangerous. I'm now more fearful of the parachute decent than the freefall or deployment.

I put my money where my mouth is this year. Went up in size, 88 to a 120, and selected a type that lets me float more so to place my self in the safest airspace for landing.

I am getting ready to go back up above 100 sq ft mark myself

D


Amazon  (D License)

Apr 12, 2012, 9:02 AM
Post #39 of 87 (979 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do. I'm tired of this go fast without consideration or training making the environment I play in more dangerous. I'm now more fearful of the parachute decent than the freefall or deployment.

I put my money where my mouth is this year. Went up in size, 88 to a 120, and selected a type that lets me float more so to place my self in the safest airspace for landing.

I already did.. the new rig has a canopy I can live with.

I took off the last few years due to a shoulder dislocation injury that has not healedsince it was torn out of its socket on a jump in 2008 thathas knocked me out of the sky.
There is no way in hell I wanted to get back tosky jumping on a canopy loaded at 1.9:1 when I jump again later this year.Unsure


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 12, 2012, 9:03 AM
Post #40 of 87 (977 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Even the manufacturers are telling people that downsizing is what they will be doing...

In reply to:

Not ALL of 'em. Wink

I was jumping with Ted Strong a while back, he saw my 190 was getting ragged out so he sent me a 210 to demo...with a note, lands softer, opens better, just as fast.

He was right, it does what I want it to do. Cool


Krip  (Student)

Apr 12, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #41 of 87 (961 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Mr T

I had a simalar experience with John Lebanc from PD a long time ago. I was jumpimg a sabre (one) 170 and I asked him about possibly down sizeing to a 150.

John's response was why?

Of Course he was right on. Why? Becuse I'm a short person and wanted a smaller canopy to fit into smaller container.

All I needed to do was Lose the pounds Crazy to maintain the same w/L.Wink

The sales rep that made the remark about down sizeing in the future is part of the the current fad and wants to continue to sell new gear (smaller)to the same people.

R


dontlikemustard  (B License)

Apr 12, 2012, 10:15 AM
Post #42 of 87 (939 views)
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Re: [Krip] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

new AFF jumper here. can somebody explain to me what the advantages of a larger canopy are? If you are careful with a smaller canopy, how is it more dangerous?

wouldn't a larger canopy actually be more affected by wind gusts due to the larger relative size compared to the weight of the skydiver?

also, if a smaller canopy is quicker to steer, is it not more capable to save you in situations where you need to avoid canopy collisions, or when you are having trouble finding a place to land.

Not trying to go against the conventional wisdom here, I just want to be as safe as possible in this sport... so I like to understand the reasoning behind everything I'm taught.


(This post was edited by dontlikemustard on Apr 12, 2012, 10:38 AM)


Abedy

Apr 12, 2012, 10:25 AM
Post #43 of 87 (927 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Took me eight years to downsize to a CF2 129, loaded at about 1.6
I do not intend to downsize any further. As I do a lot of tandems now it's always sort of "wow" when I'm under my little toy.
Only do 180's if the landing area is free (means when I'm last or something), took me couple canopy classes to learn how to do it hm... not too dangerously. ("Safe" and "Hook" don't go well with each other, huh?)
A well-planned 90 will usually do or I just frontriser it for a nice turf surf.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 12, 2012, 10:42 AM
Post #44 of 87 (914 views)
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Re: [dontlikemustard] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
new AFF jumper here. can somebody explain to me what the advantages of a larger canopy are? If you are careful with a smaller canopy, how is it more dangerous?

wouldn't a larger canopy actually be more affected by wind gusts due to the larger relative size compared to the weight of the skydiver?

also, if a smaller canopy is quicker to steer, is it not more capable to save you in situations where you need to avoid canopy collisions, or when you are having trouble finding a place to land.

Not trying to go against the conventional wisdom here, I just want to be as safe as possible in this sport... so I like the understand the reasoning behind everything I'm taught.

Larger canopies give you a much, much greater margin of error. Flare a little high or a little low? On a large lightly loaded canopy you will be OK if you PLF or maybe you will sprain your ankle. Small highly loaded canopy--tib-fib and welcome to the titanium club.

Larger canopies are easier to land accurately, so that off landing into somebody's back yard is a lot more likely to have a positive ending.

One advantage of small canopies are that they are able to penetrate more in winds and may be less susceptible to turbulence. Jumping in higher and more turbulent winds is not an unmitigated good, however, it brings problems of its own.

The faster turning speed is true, however it is counterbalanced by the fact that everything happens much, much faster on a smaller canopy--so, yes, you can turn quicker but you have to turn much quicker to avoid a canopy collision because you are closing with the other canopy (or obstacle) at a much higher rate of speed.


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 12, 2012, 10:42 AM
Post #45 of 87 (909 views)
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Re: [dontlikemustard] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
new AFF jumper here. can somebody explain to me what the advantages of a larger canopy are? If you are careful with a smaller canopy, how is it more dangerous?

wouldn't a larger canopy actually be more affected by wind gusts due to the larger relative size compared to the weight of the skydiver?

also, if a smaller canopy is quicker to steer, is it not more capable to save you in situations where you need to avoid canopy collisions, or when you are having trouble finding a place to land.

Not trying to go against the conventional wisdom here, I just want to be as safe as possible in this sport... so I like the understand the reasoning behind everything I'm taught.

Good question, you bring up a couple of valuable points to consider.

Keep in mind that a larger canopy gives you more time in most cases to see a situation developing and take the appropriate action to avoid it. It also is considerably more forgiving should you not make the right decision.

I'm an 'old school' jumper, I tend to believe one should be able to land their canopy anywhere, at any time, under any circumstances they may find themselves in.

It's much harder to do that on a small fast canopy, that detracts from the safety margin plain & simple.

There were very few canopy collisions 'back in the day' because everyone was on big ole barges and you had slower closing speeds, plenty of time to react & avoid.

If ya missed a landing and hit a barn ya dusted off and bought beer, now it's an ambulance ride...at least!

'These days' though another jumper may be coming at me faster than days gone by, with me being on a slower canopy there is still more margin than if we both were in hyper-drive.

In this sport a fraction of a second can make a big difference, I try to give myself every advantage possible.

I'm just an old frail guy that's never been injured Skydiving, and wants to keep it that way. Cool

I have nothing against a fast canopy in the right hands, but make no mistake in the 'wrong' hands they are considerably more dangerous than a 'slow' canopy to just about everyone in the sky. Wink


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 12, 2012, 10:45 AM
Post #46 of 87 (910 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

One advantage of small canopies are that they are able to penetrate more in winds and may be less susceptible to turbulence.

In reply to:

I disagree about the turbulence thing, ever take a small canopy into a stadium? Wink


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Apr 12, 2012, 11:01 AM
Post #47 of 87 (891 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I jump a L160 at ~1.4 or a L176 at ~1.3 for CREW, but when I put on my FS-cap, I still jump a Storm 190 at ~1.1.
No need for a smaller canopy / higher WL then.

Additionally, I'm saving up to get myself a nice Optimum 176 Reserve instead of the PD160R I'm currently (not) jumping. Angelic


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Apr 12, 2012, 11:06 AM
Post #48 of 87 (883 views)
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Re: [dontlikemustard] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
wouldn't a larger canopy actually be more affected by wind gusts due to the larger relative size compared to the weight of the skydiver?

Last Saturday, the winds were on the strong side and somewhat variable, with some gusts as high as 30. There were quite a few people jumping, but I knew from past experience that I get tossed around like a ragdoll on my 1:1 ratio on my 170, so I sat out. It was a bummer too because I was at the Expo and my friend came out to do a tandem and I was hoping to chase it.

Did I really miss out on much? I don't think so; jumping in variable winds isn't all that great and I live in Florida, so I can most likely jump the next day (which I did). On one of the next day jumps, my group opened on a really long spot. I'd been jumping at that airport for 11 years and had never been in that area! Did I worry about getting back? Nah, not really, because I knew I could hold myself in brakes and glide for a looong time with my big 'ol canopy. Cool My arms did hurt quite a bit the next day though!


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 12, 2012, 11:14 AM
Post #49 of 87 (878 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One advantage of small canopies are that they are able to penetrate more in winds and may be less susceptible to turbulence.

In reply to:

I disagree about the turbulence thing, ever take a small canopy into a stadium? Wink

No, I haven't. I jump a 210 and have relatively low jump numbers. I'ver heard the turbulence thing a lot, though. I choose the phrase "may be" intentionally because I am not fully convinced one way or another. Particular models also seem to come into play.

FWIW, I am on my first canopy and am in no hurry to downsize simply because I don't see much gain to it.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Apr 12, 2012, 11:17 AM
Post #50 of 87 (875 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been jumping the same size canopies for the last 5 years, and am about 15lbs lighter than I was back then.

does that count ?


fossg  (C 16560)

Apr 12, 2012, 11:40 AM
Post #51 of 87 (1360 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I like big canopys. I have dropped some weight and my wingload is about .86 on my 328..... The problem is the tail gunner drinks more beer than I do. and the sparrow air to air missle is a bitch to pack.....


(This post was edited by fossg on Apr 12, 2012, 11:41 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 12, 2012, 12:06 PM
Post #52 of 87 (1341 views)
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Re: [fossg] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I like big canopys. I have dropped some weight and my wingload is about .86 on my 328..... The problem is the tail gunner drinks more beer than I do. and the sparrow air to air missle is a bitch to pack.....

'Front toward enemy' Wink


robinheid  (D 5533)

Apr 12, 2012, 3:34 PM
Post #53 of 87 (1288 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One advantage of small canopies are that they are able to penetrate more in winds and may be less susceptible to turbulence.

In reply to:

I disagree about the turbulence thing, ever take a small canopy into a stadium? Wink

Indeed... and when you lose a few cells for a moment or longer to that turbulence, the more square footage you have left in the remaining cells will probably determine whether the ambulance-in-residence peeps will have to go to work.

44
Cool


robinheid  (D 5533)

Apr 12, 2012, 3:49 PM
Post #54 of 87 (1275 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have been jumping the same size canopies for the last 5 years, and am about 15lbs lighter than I was back then.

does that count ?

Yes!

Of course, how much it counts depends on how much you weighed to start with. If you were 150 pounds, you've reduced your weight by ten percent and your wing loading by n percent after counting the rig weight.

If you were 250 to start, then not so big a difference, but at the sizes common these days, even a five percent decrease in wing loading can pay dividends on that day you need it.

44
Cool


guppykf  (B 33607)

Apr 13, 2012, 7:35 AM
Post #55 of 87 (1186 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay so here's my question. For the most part many people off student status base their main on being 1:1 WL minus of course smaller people that going below 150 is riskier due to being under HP canopies.

Now once I was off student status I wanted to be VERY conservative, so I purchased a Pilot 188, with my gear on that puts me at a WL of .93. (with gear I am approx flux between 170-175 depending on how much junk food or beer I consume).

However, I have been really working on my canopy skills and notice I can do absolutely nothing with my front risers due to the pressure, even attempting to place both hands in one loop and pulling diagonally across my body is near impossible, it about gives me a hernia in the attempt.

I jumped a friend's Pilot 168 and found that while it is still a little difficult (need to get to the gym and work on those muscle groups) I have greater success, so I am contemplating downsizing to the 168 which would bring me to 1.04 WL. If I downsize I confident that unless I lost a lot of weight I don't see me going any lower.

Background: I've jumped just a hair less than 200 jumps under my current 188 with decent landings most of the time; I slide on occasion, but for the past year or so I've had controlled landings and have take 2 canopy courses; 1 each year the past couple years.

So long story long, would any of you ever recommending "downsizing" in order to gain additional control factors for the canopy?


gravitysurfer  (D 16281)

Apr 13, 2012, 8:59 AM
Post #56 of 87 (1142 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Love. This. Thread.

(raises hand)
Thanks - JP


gato_fly  (A License)

Apr 13, 2012, 9:13 AM
Post #57 of 87 (1132 views)
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Re: [dontlikemustard] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
new AFF jumper here. can somebody explain to me what the advantages of a larger canopy are? If you are careful with a smaller canopy, how is it more dangerous?

wouldn't a larger canopy actually be more affected by wind gusts due to the larger relative size compared to the weight of the skydiver?

also, if a smaller canopy is quicker to steer, is it not more capable to save you in situations where you need to avoid canopy collisions, or when you are having trouble finding a place to land.

Not trying to go against the conventional wisdom here, I just want to be as safe as possible in this sport... so I like to understand the reasoning behind everything I'm taught.


same boat here. i've been a sponge on dizzy since i started and alot of the times i want a good understanding of the reasoning behind some of the topics discussed.

quick background
i'm a fresh jumper with 10 jumps most of the time someone asks a question of this type the common answer is ask your dzo. unfortunatly, i'm in japan and have very little japanese skills and vise versa at the dz's here. not to say they can't explain it, just not as well as someone naturally speaking english.


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Apr 13, 2012, 9:15 AM
Post #58 of 87 (1127 views)
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Re: [guppykf] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Read this article by Billvon to help you with your question. Smile


guppykf  (B 33607)

Apr 13, 2012, 10:37 AM
Post #59 of 87 (1083 views)
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Re: [skymama] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes I keep a copy of this in my gear bag. I dont even attempt #5 due to I cant do fronts at altitude so no way I'm going to attempt it close to the hard earth. #7 is hard as well, but I have been practicing flying with rears from long spots, but haven't attempted landing with them; its a little intimidating.

Appreciate the feedback.


gato_fly  (A License)

Apr 13, 2012, 10:38 AM
Post #60 of 87 (1080 views)
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Re: [skymama] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Read this article by Billvon to help you with your question. Smile

great article. funny thing, read it right after my post i found it very informative.


gato_fly  (A License)

Apr 13, 2012, 11:20 AM
Post #61 of 87 (1061 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

i know this is off topic but, i am sure the audience in this room seems alot more knowledgeable or informative then the "thinking about downsizing" thread.

how much diffrence does .1 wingload make?


thanks again


bwilling  (C 13618)

Apr 13, 2012, 3:26 PM
Post #62 of 87 (1010 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Good thread! I've never been on the small canopy bandwagon, but I'm also doing something I thought I'd never do, jump a canopy under 200 square feet!

It took me 10 years and 1500 jump to go from 230 square feet to 190 square feet, so I doubt I'll ever go smaller than my Storm 190 loaded about 1.3, and I purposely left room in my container sizing to go back the other way!

I'm not getting any younger! Laugh


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 13, 2012, 3:28 PM
Post #63 of 87 (1007 views)
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Re: [gato_fly] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

>how much diffrence does .1 wingload make?

Depends. On a smaller jumper going from a 1.2:1 to a 1.3:1 loading? A pretty noticeable amount. On a bigger jumper going from a .8:1 to a .9:1 loading? Not as much.


VideoFly  (D 25621)

Apr 14, 2012, 6:26 PM
Post #64 of 87 (929 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I went from a 120 to a 150, which I jumped before going to a 135, 129, to the 120. I was lucky at the higher wing loading and it was fun, but thinking about safety,I returned to the 150. It was a great decision for me.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Apr 14, 2012, 7:00 PM
Post #65 of 87 (914 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've upsized canopy but only because I myself have been upsizing.BlushCrazyUnsure

Of course I never was into the little stuff. 1.5 about has high as I got.Wink

More pain in my bad leg last winter had be sitting on my ass too much. Unimpressed


Liemberg  (Student)

Apr 14, 2012, 11:40 PM
Post #66 of 87 (876 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
More pain in my bad leg last winter had be sitting on my ass too much.
After reading through the complete thread I feel as if I have been listening to ongoing conversation in a retirement home for elderly skydivers; I'm waiting for someone to mention their prostate, amnesia, reading glasses (where did I leave them?) reduced sex-drive and old war wounds.

I like that! Cool *raizes hand*

"Hey kids - upsizing may be for old farts but you better start with it soon enough if you are planning on joining their ranks in your skydiving future!" Wink


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 15, 2012, 12:05 AM
Post #67 of 87 (870 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are old skydivers and there are bold skydivers, but there are precious few old, bold skydivers.


Amyr  (C License)

Apr 15, 2012, 1:08 AM
Post #68 of 87 (862 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Very helpful. Not looking to upsize or downsize but buy my first rig I was asking today at my DZ the upside to staying in a larger canopy. Even at a wing loading of .76 I enjoy the ride not the speed of the canopy.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 15, 2012, 4:09 AM
Post #69 of 87 (845 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There are old skydivers and there are bold skydivers, but there are precious few old, bold skydivers.

Plagiarism!!!.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Apr 15, 2012, 5:57 AM
Post #70 of 87 (823 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
There are old skydivers and there are bold skydivers, but there are precious few old, bold skydivers.

Plagiarism!!!.

Maybe, maybe not. Some are old enough to have been the original author.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 15, 2012, 6:00 AM
Post #71 of 87 (820 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

And as long as Scotty Carbone is around, we can't say there aren't any old, bold skydivers

Wendy P.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Apr 15, 2012, 6:20 AM
Post #72 of 87 (811 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

That's pretty bold of you to say.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Apr 15, 2012, 1:51 PM
Post #73 of 87 (754 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do. I'm tired of this go fast without consideration or training making the environment I play in more dangerous. I'm now more fearful of the parachute decent than the freefall or deployment.

I put my money where my mouth is this year. Went up in size, 88 to a 120, and selected a type that lets me float more so to place my self in the safest airspace for landing.

Yeah i went through this two years ago. 99 up to a 107, up to a 130 and floaty-er with great glide. I might have been landing last on the load (aside from the Solo Students) but I was safe.

Matt


Airman1270  (A 9459)

Apr 16, 2012, 5:41 AM
Post #74 of 87 (699 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

...upsize?? downsize?? why not just FIND, and stick with, the right size???
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Yes! After riding a Star Trac 290 for a few hundred jumps I downsized eight years ago to a Triathalon 220. Plenty fast enough. If I lose a toggle on the flare I might break an ankle, but I won't die. Cool

Cheers,
Jon S.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 16, 2012, 5:34 PM
Post #75 of 87 (625 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I dunno, Diablo.

I got brave AND bold and bought a 175 after >1000 jumps on my trusty old 190 sweetheart. I only used him for those times when I had to do back-to-backs and my girl wasn't packed....there you have it. I'm a confessed downsizer.

HI! My name is Andy and I was a downsizer!
Unsure

Maybe at my age, you're right. I should hang up and retire the 175 and stick to the 190 only. She has been awfully good to me.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Apr 16, 2012, 9:11 PM
Post #76 of 87 (731 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure upsizing is a good idea. But when have skydivers, in general, ever fit the mold of a good idea? We fall out of airplanes for fun.

Fast canopies are fun too. Dangerous, but fun as hell.

Fly safe, have fun, and don't hurt anyone else.


huge

Apr 16, 2012, 9:54 PM
Post #77 of 87 (723 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I got brave AND bold and bought a 175 after >1000 jumps on my trusty old 190 sweetheart.
This is interesting. Why did you decide to get 175 instead of another 190?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 17, 2012, 2:38 AM
Post #78 of 87 (694 views)
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Re: [huge] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I got brave AND bold and bought a 175 after >1000 jumps on my trusty old 190 sweetheart.
This is interesting. Why did you decide to get 175 instead of another 190?

$850 brand new.


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Apr 17, 2012, 1:51 PM
Post #79 of 87 (649 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sure upsizing is a good idea. But when have skydivers, in general, ever fit the mold of a good idea? We fall out of airplanes for fun.

Fast canopies are fun too. Dangerous, but fun as hell.

Fly safe, have fun, and don't hurt anyone else.

Congratulations! That's gotta be one of the worst sophisms I've ever read. LaughLaugh


Bip  (D 573)

Apr 17, 2012, 11:01 PM
Post #80 of 87 (594 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

My brother started jumping last year after a 25 year break. He bought a brand new Pilot 168. Although he could fly it will and land without problems it was a bitch to pack. Cool so This winter we swapped it for a Pulse 190 from a kid who was keen to downsize. (last we heard he was unable to pack the pilot Wink ).

Seems there are so many larger canopies going cheap from the "I must downsize" crowd I might just trade in my old Pulse 170 for a newish 190. Smile

To be fair, we are both in our mid 50's and want to carry on for some years.


(This post was edited by Bip on Apr 17, 2012, 11:02 PM)


Unstable  (D 28930)

Apr 18, 2012, 7:12 AM
Post #81 of 87 (561 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

 I would love to have a 220-260 barge - I used to jump a Parafoil 282 for ful (loaded well below 1:1) but it was a junker, got rid of it and the 'big' rig.

Boogies in the midwest are a special concern ~ think about it, you have jumpers that year round jump either 4 or 6 at a time, and never have to think about canopy traffic. Then, once a year at their favorite boogie, they jump from Turbines carrying 20-30.

I am looking at purchasing a Flight Concepts Demo canopy (Startac I) just to hang above the crowd and set it down or for sinking into tight spots.


dthames  (B 37674)

Apr 18, 2012, 10:34 AM
Post #82 of 87 (531 views)
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Re: [Bip] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
<snip>
Seems there are so many larger canopies going cheap from the "I must downsize" crowd I might just trade in my old Pulse 170 for a newish 190. Smile

To be fair, we are both in our mid 50's and want to carry on for some years.

I have been looking for a first rig and I think the upsizing craze started by this thread has largely depleted the available rigs of normal size. Only tiny stuff out there or everyone is clammering over the few for sale. No less than 6 people said they wanted a 210 rig that came up for sale yesterday.


Premier RickH  (D 18955)

Apr 18, 2012, 10:46 AM
Post #83 of 87 (522 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just recently sold my Velocity 96 and trying to sell my Katana 107. I have flown these canopies for years and love the speed and adrenaline that it provided.
But, having opened up a DZ in another country where we perform tandems only where I am not flying those canopies as often as I should in order to say current, I realized that I am endangering the lives of myself and friends in the air.
I am in no way saying we should stop those who choose to fly them, but until the USPA and manufacturers does something to implement proper training requirements, i will remain in brakes flying my new Spectre 120.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Apr 18, 2012, 11:00 AM
Post #84 of 87 (512 views)
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Re: [dthames] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
<snip>
Seems there are so many larger canopies going cheap from the "I must downsize" crowd I might just trade in my old Pulse 170 for a newish 190. Smile

To be fair, we are both in our mid 50's and want to carry on for some years.

I have been looking for a first rig and I think the upsizing craze started by this thread has largely depleted the available rigs of normal size. Only tiny stuff out there or everyone is clammering over the few for sale. No less than 6 people said they wanted a 210 rig that came up for sale yesterday.

No, that's pretty typical, especially this time of year (beginning of the season in many parts of the world). There's a smaller pool of available gear in the 210/230 range and if it's in good shape and well-priced, it'll go quickly for those who want gear in that range.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 18, 2012, 4:12 PM
Post #85 of 87 (446 views)
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Re: [Unstable] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would love to have a 220-260 barge -
It might be beneficial to the youngsters for us to stop referring to larger canopies with derogatory terms such as barge, boat, floatie, etc.

It promotes the mindset of, "I can't be one of the cool kids if I fly a boat."


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 18, 2012, 9:03 PM
Post #86 of 87 (405 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"I can't be one of the cool kids if I fly a boat."
the truth sometimes hurtsSly


blkhwk91b

Apr 19, 2012, 9:59 PM
Post #87 of 87 (342 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Raise your hand if you think upsizing is a good idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do. I'm tired of this go fast without consideration or training making the environment I play in more dangerous. I'm now more fearful of the parachute decent than the freefall or deployment.

I put my money where my mouth is this year. Went up in size, 88 to a 120, and selected a type that lets me float more so to place my self in the safest airspace for landing.

Brother I will sit under a 220 all daaaayyy long and watch the world go by. You sir, are in it for the long haul. See you on the beach ;)



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