Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request)

 


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 8:32 AM
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Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) Can't Post

I've hashed the argument out more than once, and in attendance with the full USPA BOD, by request, feel free to discuss, perhaps it will lead to change.

In reply to:
It is absolutely insane that the USPA and the gear manufacturers are giving people with only 600 skydives a tandem rating! That is just not enough jumping experience to be doing tandems, period.
In reply to:
While I agree with you, the jump numbers is not the only problem. It's somewhat about time is sport which is what really seasons a person. The USPA BOD has been asked to create some hurdles to slow the progress of skydivers to season them a bit. They have chosen to not to put these hurdles in play.

1) require 1 year between the coach rating and ANY instructional rating irrespective of jump numbers. This would stop the money seekers who get a coach rating one weekend and a tandem rating the next.

2) Define the beginning of "time in sport" as the issuance of an "A" license. This would stop those that did a tandem, then waited a few years before starting a training program, racking up 499 jumps in a very short period (saw someone do that many in less than a year this last year) and be eligible for a tandem rating.

Some of the BOD seems to thing these rules would hurt the industry. They falsely believe there is an instructor shortage, when in fact there is simply a shortage of experience in the field right now. The shortage of experience is caused buy a glut of low time, willing to work for low pay instructors causing those with experience to get out of the industry.
Diablo - Please repost this in Safety and Training. I think it would be a very good discussion there.
(not inappropriate as a one off statement here, but the full discussion should happen and that's a better place for it...)
JW


Scrumpot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 8:41 AM
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Which side of this is your opinion, JP?

That "it is insane to give people with only 600 total skydives a tandem rating"? - Or that this is not the main factor, and that instead - overall "seasoning" of said jumper (and how you get that seasoning) rather, is?

It is difficult to discern your position on this, based upon this being chopped out of its previous total (in incidents) discussion thread.


rifleman  (Student)

Apr 3, 2012, 9:44 AM
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In the UK you need at least 800 jumps and 8 hours cumulative freefall time before you can attend the basic instructors course which allows you to do ground instruction only under supervision. After six months you then attend another course which then allows to jump with tandem students.

http://www.bpa.org.uk/...oming-an-instructor/


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Apr 3, 2012, 9:57 AM
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Lets not lose sight of the fact that there are dropzones all over the country that are single cessna dropzones, open seasonally, that employ instructors (AFF and Tandem), that don't have 1000 jumps. When all you do is cessna jumps it can take a long time to reach 1000 jumps.

The requirements have been working fine. No need to change them. Not everyone is fortunate enough to jump at multiple turbine DZ's.

I'm becoming more and more concerned about the entitled "experienced" instructors who don't need to change or learn proper patterns, or listen to anyone because they "know". Look at the numbers...its not the 600 jump tandem instructor dieing or taking people out.


cloudtramp  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
When all you do is cessna jumps it can take a long time to reach 1000 jumps.

I did 700 jumps at a seasonal cessna dropzone in one summer last year. Just sayin...


angle228  (B License)

Apr 3, 2012, 10:41 AM
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Was that DZ open 7 days a week? Becauase at my seasonal DZ, even in the summers we are only open Sat, Sun, and some Wed after 5pm.... no way you could get 700 jumps at those hours

On the best day where we have 2 planes going as fast as we can get them going you could normally get 5-6 jumps. So if your life allowed you to be out there every Sat/Sun you would get 10-12 jumps a weekend X 6months open=240-288 jumos.... thats with no wind/weather holds the whole summer (in nebraska yeah right)...


Ron

Apr 3, 2012, 11:04 AM
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Here is what I would have:

1. One year between coach and TI or AFFI
2. 500 jumps.
3. 3 years in the sport from license.
4. Cutaway
5. Ditch the 3rd class medical. 7 years of 'sport pilot' has shown that not ONE accident could be attributed to a medical issue. In fact, the EAA and AOPA have petitioned the FAA to allow planes <180 HP to fall under the same self certification requirements.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 3, 2012, 11:19 AM
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TK posted:

>If I want to fly a plane, I can pile in single engine, multi engine,
>commercial, instrument ratings in a short period of time if I have the
>money, the time and the drive. Does not mean that I do not deserve to
>have those ratings nor does it mean that I did ANY LESS than anyone else
>to achieve those ratings.

You are correct. However, it also might mean that you are now a "summer pilot" with lots of qualifications who has never flown in bad weather or in icing conditions.

Does that mean that people should think less of you? No. Does that mean you are less experienced than a commercial instrument pilot who has the same rating, but has a lot of time flying in bad weather and icing conditions? Yes.

We see that in skydiving nowadays. Is someone who has mostly tunnel time going to be able to deal with a two out as well as someone who has mostly skydives? Probably not. He is not as experienced a skydiver, even if he has the same freefall time.

Someone who makes 1000 jumps over the winter in Arizona? He's likely to be a good skydiver - but may also make very poor decisions when it comes to dealing with weather, or spotting.

In skydiving, as in many other activities, breadth of experience is very important. And often you just can't get that breadth of experience in six months at one DZ.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Apr 3, 2012, 12:56 PM
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In reply to:
Someone who makes 1000 jumps over the winter in Arizona? He's likely to be a good skydiver - but may also make very poor decisions when it comes to dealing with weather, or spotting.

Do you really think that too many people get spotting experience if the jump plane in use is a Caravan or Otter or bigger?


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 3:14 PM
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Re: [Scrumpot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm on the seasoning side of things though with as fast as people add up jumps these days the jump numbers might be revisited?


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 3:14 PM
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I'm on the seasoning side of things though with as fast as people add up jumps these days the jump numbers might be revisited?


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 3:16 PM
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Quote:
The requirements have been working fine. No need to change them. Not everyone is fortunate enough to jump at multiple turbine DZ's.

They are not working. We have the lowest possible tallent, competency, and experience level in skydiving since I started, and it's due to sub standard instruction across the board.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 3:18 PM
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Here is what I would have:

1. One year between coach and TI or AFFI
2. 500 jumps.
3. 3 years in the sport from license.
4. Cutaway
5. Ditch the 3rd class medical. 7 years of 'sport pilot' has shown that not ONE accident could be attributed to a medical issue. In fact, the EAA and AOPA have petitioned the FAA to allow planes <180 HP to fall under the same self certification requirements.

I agree except for point 5. The problem is drug use and a penalty for it.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 3, 2012, 3:21 PM
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

>Do you really think that too many people get spotting experience if the
>jump plane in use is a Caravan or Otter or bigger?

Not sure what you are asking. Are you asking whether people get experience spotting if a DZ uses Caravans and Otters? I think at some DZ's yes, at some DZ's no. Which is why someone who goes to many different DZ's will be more likely to have spotting experience than someone who goes to just one.

Nowadays I actually do a fair amount of spotting out of the Perris Otter, since I am often doing video for the more experienced teams, and they tend to get out at 10,500 - which means that I'm the first one out the door. 95% of the time it just means checking the spot and looking for traffic. The remaining 5% of the time it means a 10 second delay for a way too short spot or a talk with manifest after I land to adjust the spot a little.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Apr 3, 2012, 3:24 PM
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Then maybe we look at those who are conducting the course evaluations?

Many "home grown" TI's / AFFI's at small seasonal DZ's would have problems when you start doubling the required jump numbers for instructors.

While my experience with the smaller cessna seasonal dropzones was limited to my experience growing up as a kid, I'll tell you the passion and instruction quality would rival anything I've seen today. Under some of the language suggesting 1000 jumps....my father who was the rigger/TI/Static Line instructor would not have qualified with the 800 jumps he had/has. That was at a time when D-License holders could obtain the license at 200 jumps. I get it, things change...but I contend the jump numbers aren't the problem.


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Apr 3, 2012, 3:57 PM
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Quote:
Many "home grown" TI's / AFFI's at small seasonal DZ's would have problems when you start doubling the required jump numbers for instructors.

Are these "problems" in the best interest of the student. As instructors, we should ALWAYS have the students best interest (safety) as the #1 priority no matter what the cost.


Ron

Apr 3, 2012, 4:52 PM
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Quote:
I agree except for point 5. The problem is drug use and a penalty for it.

Hangglider tandem instructors don't need a class III
Ballon pilots don't need a medical.
Sport pilot instructors don't need a medical.

So basically it is an added expense that limits a good number of otherwise quality instructors for no real reason and that has no equal in any other aviation equivalent


justme12001  (D 29862)

Apr 3, 2012, 4:55 PM
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I have been following this in the incident thread and now this one. I have been wondering how many jumps did you have when you got your tandem rating? Me,I started my TI coarse at jump number 520.


cloudtramp  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 5:42 PM
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Re: [justme12001] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
how many jumps did you have when you got your tandem rating?

I personally took a longer road than most. I began shooting tandem videos at about 200 jumps at a small cessna DZ. When I had about 650 jumps I broke my back during a landing accident, I had over 400 "work" jumps over 600 total jumps and was a total bad-ass (at least in my head). I personally believe that the most dangerous time in a jumpers career are between 600-1200 jumps. That's when skill level has not caught up with ego.
After healing from my injury I moved on to a busy year-round DZ where I did another 7000 video jumps almost all filming Tandems. I personally witnessed two tandem fatalities, at least six other fatalities, countless broken students and bad tandem landings, side-spins, bad drogue throws, bad students, poor instructor techniques, and too many major (experiences jumper) injuries to count. I became extremely proficient at spotting and flying a parachute in every condition imaginable. I had a few close calls myself during that time and three cutaways before I personally felt ready to take someone's life in my hands.
SO the short answer is about 7600 skydives and 200 BASE jumps before I took my tandem rating course and tandems were still scary as shit in the beginning. Probably because I knew more than most what could go wrong.
I don't think it is necessary for someone to do that many jumps before getting a tandem rating but I do believe that shooting video for at least 500 jumps before taking on the responsibility of someones life is a very important prerequisite. There is ALOT of shit that can go wrong up there and somebody with 500-600 jumps who counts 3 years from the first tandem jump they did just cannot truly know and understand what they are getting into.

Just my humble opinion...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 3, 2012, 6:51 PM
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

>Sport pilot instructors don't need a medical.

All commercial pilots (i.e. pilots flying passengers for hire) require medicals.

Most tandem operations carry passengers for hire. So the same requirements would seem to apply.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 7:00 PM
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Quote:
Then maybe we look at those who are conducting the course evaluations?

Yep. That needs to be tightened up too. Worst thing we did was to take it out of the USPA HQ and make it a business.


cloudtramp  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 7:00 PM
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Ballon pilots don't need a medical.

Commercial balloon pilots who fly passengers do indeed need a medical. Ballooning is overseen by the FAA as well.


Ron

Apr 3, 2012, 7:50 PM
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Quote:
>Sport pilot instructors don't need a medical.

All commercial pilots (i.e. pilots flying passengers for hire) require medicals.

False

Quote:
(c) Operations requiring either a medical certificate or U.S. driver's license. (1) A person must hold and possess either a valid medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a current and valid U.S. driver's license when exercising the privileges of—
(i) A student pilot certificate while seeking sport pilot privileges in a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon;
(ii) A sport pilot certificate in a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon; or
(iii) A flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating while acting as pilot in command or serving as a required flight crewmember of a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon.
(2) A person using a current and valid U.S. driver’s license to meet the requirements of this paragraph must--
(i) Comply with each restriction and limitation imposed by that person’s U.S. driver’s license and any judicial or administrative order applying to the operation of a motor vehicle;
(ii) Have been found eligible for the issuance of at least a third- class airman medical certificate at the time of his or her most recent application (if the person has applied for a medical certificate);
(iii) Not have had his or her most recently issued medical certificate (if the person has held a medical certificate) suspended or revoked or most recent Authorization for a Special Issuance of a Medical Certificate withdrawn; and
(iv) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner.

http://www.faa.gov/...ication_brochure.pdf

Quote:
Under Section 111 of SFAR No. 89, the FAA proposed to require individuals exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating and acting as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon, to hold and possess a current and valid U.S. driver’s license or a current and valid airman medical certificate issued under part 67. These provisions, as revised in the final rule, are located under §§61.3 and 61.23 in the operating rules where medical certificate requirements for all flight instructors are found.

And from the EAA:
Quote:
I’m a current CFI but would like to instruct as a sport pilot instructor (under subpart K) so that I can use my drivers license in lieu of a third class medical. What do I need to do?

Assuming your most recent medical application was not denied, withdrawn, or revoked, you can “drop down” and operate as a sport pilot instructor. You will need to operate within the privileges and limitation of a CFI-SP. See §61.429 which specifically addresses this situation.


(This post was edited by Ron on Apr 3, 2012, 7:54 PM)


Ron

Apr 3, 2012, 8:07 PM
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Quote:
Commercial balloon pilots who fly passengers do indeed need a medical. Ballooning is overseen by the FAA as well.

False


Quote:
http://www.fun-flying.com/become_a_pilot.htm

Commercial Pilot Requirements:

To become a commercial pilot, you must fulfill the following minimum requirements as a private pilot:
Be at least 18 years of age
Read, speak, write and understand the English language
Hold at least a Private Pilot Certificate
No medical certificate is required but you must have no condition that would prevent you from operating the aircraft safely.
Have at least 35 hours as a pilot, including 20 hours in balloons, which must include the following:
10 flights in balloons
10 hours of flight training that includes at least 10 flights with an instructor on the Commercial Pilot areas of operation
Two flights as pilot in command
One controlled ascent to 3000 feet above the takeoff point
2 flights of 1 hour each within 60 days prior to taking the practical test
2 solo flights
Pass the written FAA Knowledge Test (or hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate for any powered aircraft).
Pass the Practical Knowledge Test (oral and flight) given by a designated FAA Flight Examiner or FAA Inspector.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2012, 8:14 PM
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a moot point as the two situations are not congruent.

A Sport Pilot CFI, or Commercial Balloon pilot had to train over weeks and weeks, invest many tens to hundreds of hours of study, pass a written knowledge test, an oral knowledge test, and a practical skills test all administered by a(n) individual(s) who had no fiduciary interest in whether the applicant passed or failed.

A Tandem Instructor Candidate has to show up for a weekend, take an open book written test, brief someone (barely) on a Cat D skydive, and do a handful of jumps with someone who has to make a living by passing people.


robinheid  (D 5533)

Apr 3, 2012, 11:03 PM
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In reply to:
A Tandem Instructor Candidate has to show up for a weekend, take an open book written test, brief someone (barely) on a Cat D skydive, and do a handful of jumps with someone who has to make a living by passing people.

C'mon, DP, lighten up. What could possibly go wrong?

Seriously, though, your "seasoning" comment a few posts up is right on. If you look at the military, "time in service" and "time in grade" are significant elements of the rank structure -- to the point that they sometimes count more than actual rank.

You learn things by being around any activity for an extended time simply because
you are, uhhh, around the activity for an extended time.

44
Cool


mx19  (D License)

Apr 4, 2012, 12:02 AM
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Re: [justme12001] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

750 odd jumps total and 550ish tandem camera jumps


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Apr 4, 2012, 1:25 AM
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Quote:
I did 700 jumps at a seasonal cessna dropzone in one summer last year. Just sayin...

And I ran a weekend Cessna dropzone for years. The most I ever managed jumping hard every day was 350 in a year. If the club did 100 tandems in a year, that was considered good. In total, the club did 4000 jumps each year.

It was even difficult for the AFF and IAD instructors/coaches to get the minimums to stay current by the rules we had then.

To impose 1000 jump 'whatevers' on dropzones such as these would be the end of them. We did just fine. We had malfunctions, we had issues, we had injuries and no one got killed.

In fact we turned out a lot of good skydivers and a lot of fun.

The argument to raise jump requirements based on a single fatality, whatever those requirements might be, is flawed.


Skyper

Apr 4, 2012, 4:50 AM
Post #29 of 58 (1070 views)
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here are some of the requirements for becoming a TM in the Netherlands:

1. at least 1000 free fall jumps
2. at least 3 years in sport
3. at least 1 EP
4. after obtaining TM-rating: at least 75 free fall jumps (including at least 35 tandem jumps) per year.

I'd like to hear a reason for setting the minimum number of jumps to 1000 instead to USPA's 500.


wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 4, 2012, 5:13 AM
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Re: [tkhayes] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe the deal is that more attention should be paid by individual DZs to the personnel they hire.

At a small DZ (particularly one with the standard-issue grizzled DZO who's seen it all), a less-experienced TM who has plenty of time to be with each student is great. His or her enthusiasm will be infectious, and the slightly lesser currency is made up for the greater amount of itme they spend with students.

At a larger commercial DZ, well, TM's often run from student to student, and do most of their working with them on the bench waiting for the plane, and in the plane. You'd want more experience there, just as the pilot at a busy multi-plane DZ probably needs more than the minimum number of commercial and/or multi-engine hours, while the single-Cessna DZ pilot really doesn't.

Just a thought. Of course, DZs will want to hire as many less-expensive TMs as they can; it's human nature to be profit-oriented.

Wendy P.


Ron

Apr 4, 2012, 5:57 AM
Post #31 of 58 (1049 views)
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Quote:
It's a moot point as the two situations are not congruent.

A Sport Pilot CFI, or Commercial Balloon pilot had to train over weeks and weeks, invest many tens to hundreds of hours of study, pass a written knowledge test, an oral knowledge test, and a practical skills test all administered by a(n) individual(s) who had no fiduciary interest in whether the applicant passed or failed.

A Tandem Instructor Candidate has to show up for a weekend, take an open book written test, brief someone (barely) on a Cat D skydive, and do a handful of jumps with someone who has to make a living by passing people.

Then you change 'A', not require 'B'.

If you don't like what you view as limited training, then you increase the training, not require a medical.

The fact is the FAA has set a precedent and we just ignore it.

But just for fun, back to your non congruent point:

To be a commercial ballon pilot:
Quote:
Have at least 35 hours as a pilot, including 20 hours in balloons, which must include the following: (I'll bet a guy with 500 jumps has spent more than 35 hours on a DZ participating in skydiving... Let's see, 500 jumps = to about 8 hrs freefall and if we assume 3 min each jump under canopy that adds ~24 hours... And this is not including flight time).
10 flights in balloons (500 jumps)
10 hours of flight training that includes at least 10 flights with an instructor on the Commercial Pilot areas of operation (what is it, 5 jumps in the class and then another 5 with an experienced person then 20 provisional jumps?)
Two flights as pilot in command
One controlled ascent to 3000 feet above the takeoff point
2 flights of 1 hour each within 60 days prior to taking the practical test
2 solo flights
Pass the written FAA Knowledge Test (or hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate for any powered aircraft).
Pass the Practical Knowledge Test (oral and flight) given by a designated FAA Flight Examiner or FAA Inspector.

And as for your claim about the people that pass them having a financial incentive... You know they get paid even if a person fails right?

But what would you propose? We get the FAA involved? I'd be against that, but would be interested in your solution. And do you see the same problem with AFF and coach?

But back to MY point:
Balloonists don't need a medical
Sport pilot instructors don't need a medical
Hangglider tandem instructors don't need a medical
Paragliding tandem instructors don't need a medical

It makes little sense to make skydiving TI's do it.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 4, 2012, 6:03 AM
Post #32 of 58 (1046 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

So far you've come up with a bunch of non comparative comparisons, but I have not seen a solid reason to remove a requirement that has been in place since the inventors of Tandem skydiving put it there more than 20 years ago.

How is having the medical requirement in place hurting tandem skydiving?


fcajump  (D 15598)

Apr 4, 2012, 6:39 AM
Post #33 of 58 (1038 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Here is what I would have:

1. One year between coach and TI or AFFI
2. 500 jumps.
3. 3 years in the sport from license.
4. Cutaway
5. Ditch the 3rd class medical. 7 years of 'sport pilot' has shown that not ONE accident could be attributed to a medical issue. In fact, the EAA and AOPA have petitioned the FAA to allow planes <180 HP to fall under the same self certification requirements.

I guess when its all said and done, I would agree with this list.

The only concern with #4 is one tandem candidate that I knew that happened to have a cutaway (his first) the on the last load of the weekend, the day before going to the TI course and a rig that happened to need a repack the next week... And for his first "emergency" he was much more interested in talking about the feeling of the release and reserve flight... never did say much about what was wrong with his main...

So, maybe I would add one requirement that is a bit hard to quantify (much less enforce)... proven good mature judgement.

Just sayin'... Tongue
JW


stratostar  (Student)

Apr 4, 2012, 6:56 AM
Post #34 of 58 (1035 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How is having the medical requirement in place hurting tandem skydiving?

It's not hurting "tandem skydiving" it is how ever hurting some instructors for various reasons, some are stupid medical issues, like a med once taken, others it might be the additional fees to pay out.

I happen to agree with Ron on this, it is totally stupid to keep this requirement for us to hold a medical for one, but most of all forcing a class 3 FAA medical is even more stupid when there are other less expensive medicals out there. My class 3 is due in May, my DOT medical is still valid for another year.... The class 3 is min: 100 bucks and an hour drive away, unless I want to pay 140.00 bucks. The DOT medical is 40.00 to renew.

I would like to not pay anything more for any medical, it's not required by the FAA for me to have one, the enjoyment of rating ownership, use and maintaining them is starting to out weight the usefulness of the ratings.


Ron

Apr 4, 2012, 8:53 AM
Post #35 of 58 (1013 views)
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Quote:
So far you've come up with a bunch of non comparative comparisons

A hang glider TANDEM INSTRUCTOR is 'non-comparative'?
A paragliding TANDEM INSTRUCTOR is 'non-comparative'?

Really????

And pointing out that Balloon Commercial pilots and light sport flight instructors is 'non-comparative'?

How EXACTLY is any of that non-comparative?

Quote:
How is having the medical requirement in place hurting tandem skydiving?

I know plenty of damn good instructors that can't do tandems because of some stupid rule like being color blind. A buddy was turned down because he needed to provide the serial number of the stint put in one of his veins 10 years ago and a surgical diagram showing its placement.... This Dr has long since retired and the FAA gave him THREE DAYS to get that information before he was rejected.

I personally may quit doing them since the way the rules are written I could risk never being able to fly my plane again if I fail a medical.... Just not worth it.

The FAA just did a SEVEN year study on light sport pilots (more of those than tandem instructors in the US) and found NOT A SINGLE CASE where a medical issue that could have been caught by a medical would have had ANY influence on ANY accident that occurred.

Now, show me where having an FAA 3rd class medical has done any good.

Quote:
a requirement that has been in place since the inventors of Tandem skydiving put it there more than 20 years ago.

Tandems 20 years ago were also under a special exemption.... Should we go back to that since it was in place 20 years ago?


Ron

Apr 4, 2012, 8:57 AM
Post #36 of 58 (1013 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
it's not required by the FAA for me to have one

And that's the kicker.... Diablo is trying to say it makes tandems 'safer'... I'd like to see how. And if having a class III FAA medical makes tandems safer, then requiring a class III FAA medical for EVERY jumper wold surely make skydiving safer right?

So Diablo... You going to request that EVERY jumper have to get a third class medical to make skydiving safer?


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 4, 2012, 9:11 AM
Post #37 of 58 (1004 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

How does point 5 address drug use?
Legal or illegal for that matter.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Apr 4, 2012, 10:29 AM
Post #38 of 58 (993 views)
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Re: [normiss] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

My last flight physical included a urine test (for what I did not ask), vision test and color blind test.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Apr 4, 2012, 11:07 AM
Post #39 of 58 (985 views)
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In reply to:
I'd like to hear a reason for setting the minimum number of jumps to 1000 instead to USPA's 500.

We used to have the minimum set at 500. We had a fair number of incidents involving new TMs. We changed the minimum to 1000 jumps. We now have very few incidents involving new TMs.


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 4, 2012, 11:18 AM
Post #40 of 58 (979 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Kidney function.

Snipped from the FAA guidelines for the Class III:

"perform urine testing for albumin and glucose"


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 4, 2012, 11:49 AM
Post #41 of 58 (962 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

>And if having a class III FAA medical makes tandems safer, then requiring
>a class III FAA medical for EVERY jumper wold surely make skydiving safer
>right?

Yes. But while you have a right to take substantial risks with your own life, you do not have the right to take substantial risks with a paying customer. Which is why it's harder to get an AFF rating than an A license.


Ron

Apr 4, 2012, 12:02 PM
Post #42 of 58 (956 views)
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Re: [billvon] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
>And if having a class III FAA medical makes tandems safer, then requiring
>a class III FAA medical for EVERY jumper wold surely make skydiving safer
>right?

Yes. But while you have a right to take substantial risks with your own life, you do not have the right to take substantial risks with a paying customer.

But since a medical is not required for:
Commercial Balloon flights
Sport pilot Instructors
Handgliding Tandem Instructors
Paragliding Tandem Instructors

And they all take paying passengers.

Quote:
Which is why it's harder to get an AFF rating than an A license.

And yet an AFF rating has no medical requirement.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 4, 2012, 1:21 PM
Post #43 of 58 (937 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you understand the moment there is a actionable incident after the requirement for a 3rd class is revoked the lawyers are going to be so far up the ass of whichever organization abolishes the requirement that they will need flashlights and caving gear?


Ron

Apr 4, 2012, 1:54 PM
Post #44 of 58 (926 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you understand the moment there is a actionable incident after the requirement for a 3rd class is revoked the lawyers are going to be so far up the ass of whichever organization abolishes the requirement that they will need flashlights and caving gear?

Got it, you have nothing but to play but the fear card. The fact is the FAA does not require it.

I am still waiting for you to answer the questions I asked.


Skyper

Apr 4, 2012, 2:09 PM
Post #45 of 58 (917 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'd like to hear a reason for setting the minimum number of jumps to 1000 instead to USPA's 500.

We used to have the minimum set at 500. We had a fair number of incidents involving new TMs. We changed the minimum to 1000 jumps. We now have very few incidents involving new TMs.

ty Dragon.


jimjumper  (D 11137)

Apr 4, 2012, 2:12 PM
Post #46 of 58 (912 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

I too think that the Class 3 requirement is foolish and was going to post about the same points you have but your doing a great job without me.
+1!


stratostar  (Student)

Apr 4, 2012, 3:59 PM
Post #47 of 58 (888 views)
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Re: [jimjumper] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I hope all you guys bitching about the stupid fucking class 3 medical requirement, have been or are planing to voice your concerns and thoughts to the full USPA BOD before the next meeting, because maybe we can get a change or something like the DOT medical cards approved, speak up or shut up already.WinkTongue


(This post was edited by stratostar on Apr 4, 2012, 3:59 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 4, 2012, 10:50 PM
Post #48 of 58 (835 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

>And yet an AFF rating has no medical requirement.

True. And in a program where a tandem student is trained to the level of an AFF student, and has the same level of control (toggle extensions, chicken handles etc) then I'd agree that you would not need a medical to do tandems.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Apr 5, 2012, 1:58 AM
Post #49 of 58 (826 views)
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Re: [billvon] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Do you really think that too many people get spotting experience if the
>jump plane in use is a Caravan or Otter or bigger?

Not sure what you are asking. Are you asking whether people get experience spotting if a DZ uses Caravans and Otters? I think at some DZ's yes, at some DZ's no. Which is why someone who goes to many different DZ's will be more likely to have spotting experience than someone who goes to just one.

Nowadays I actually do a fair amount of spotting out of the Perris Otter, since I am often doing video for the more experienced teams, and they tend to get out at 10,500 - which means that I'm the first one out the door. 95% of the time it just means checking the spot and looking for traffic. The remaining 5% of the time it means a 10 second delay for a way too short spot or a talk with manifest after I land to adjust the spot a little.

That is what I meant. Most of us don't have a chance to spot with bigger planes, specially jumping as guest on some DZ.


Premier RickH  (D 18955)

Apr 5, 2012, 4:22 AM
Post #50 of 58 (815 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
I agree except for point 5. The problem is drug use and a penalty for it. [/
The Class 3 Phyisical requirement in my opinion is simply over the top...not sure why UPT and USPA are currently still requiring this, we are no longer "experimental test jumpers", we are highly qualified instructors who have earned our ratings. We as AFF Instructors aren't required a Class3, and in my experience, I have had to save numerous students for multiple reasons.
The "time in sport", is certainly a concern. But, I agree with others in the term "quality" above "quantity". I have trained numerous individuals with 1000's of jumps under their belt, and were horrible "candidates", Attitude and the willingness to learn is a huge factor. Some are great skydivers, but can't teach, therefore are horrible instructors. Some are solid skydivers and are great teachers..jump numbers are not a factor in attitude.It starts with the Coach course, the question should be, " Are you a candidate to teach".quote]

As for the "Drug use" statement..the urine that you have to submit to your flight surgeon is not an effort to test for a schedule 3 narcotic or any other "social drug", Cannabis (THC)..etc.

Hangglider tandem instructors don't need a class III
Ballon pilots don't need a medical.
Sport pilot instructors don't need a medical.

So basically it is an added expense that limits a good number of otherwise quality instructors for no real reason and that has no equal in any other aviation equivalent


Ron

Apr 5, 2012, 5:16 AM
Post #51 of 58 (641 views)
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Re: [billvon] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
>And yet an AFF rating has no medical requirement.

True. And in a program where a tandem student is trained to the level of an AFF student, and has the same level of control (toggle extensions, chicken handles etc) then I'd agree that you would not need a medical to do tandems.

And yet to do hang gliding tandems, paragliding tandems, light sport flight training and commercial balloon flights no medical is required either.


Ron

Apr 5, 2012, 5:34 AM
Post #52 of 58 (634 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well I hope all you guys bitching about the stupid fucking class 3 medical requirement, have been or are planing to voice your concerns and thoughts to the full USPA BOD before the next meeting, because maybe we can get a change or something like the DOT medical cards approved, speak up or shut up already.WinkTongue

Well I will, but expect to be ignored. It has been proven time after time that the USPA BOD will side with the PIA, DZO, or manufactor over the general membership.

UPT and Strong basically begged the USPA to take over tandem certifications, the one major sticking point was that they wanted the USPA to continue to require a 3rd class medical.

So your chance of getting the USPA to change that? Zero. I would however be interested in seeing if a lawsuit against the USPA if they fail to act would work.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Apr 5, 2012, 10:50 AM
Post #53 of 58 (609 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

You will also need the Manufacturers on your side for this to happen, and they just pushed USPA to act on the age thing.

It is simple, do like Mike Mullins, he doesn't follow the US Manufacturers rules since he doesn't use their gear.

He doesn't follow the USPA GM Policies, as he is not a USPA GM DZ.

Matt


ufk22  (D 16168)

Apr 8, 2012, 8:31 AM
Post #54 of 58 (541 views)
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Re: [billvon] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>And yet an AFF rating has no medical requirement.

True. And in a program where a tandem student is trained to the level of an AFF student, and has the same level of control (toggle extensions, chicken handles etc) then I'd agree that you would not need a medical to do tandems.
And this is the heart of the issue.
If tandems were truly about training rather than generating revenue, I would also agree about not needing a medical.


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Apr 9, 2012, 10:23 AM
Post #55 of 58 (467 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So far you've come up with a bunch of non comparative comparisons, but I have not seen a solid reason to remove a requirement that has been in place since the inventors of Tandem skydiving put it there more than 20 years ago.

How is having the medical requirement in place hurting tandem skydiving?

The USPA wants to keep the medical requirement in order to keep those who have lost their medical for alcohol, or drugs to not be allowed to do tandems. Obviously, this does not keep many instructors from drinking and smoking pot, ect, only those who've had enforcement action by a law enforcement agency. That shit is really more well placed on the DZO's back. I as DZO can and will keep my instructors from being "dirty" and jumping. They don't have to be saints, but damn sure better not show up to work hung over, etc.


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Apr 9, 2012, 10:41 AM
Post #56 of 58 (461 views)
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Re: Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Not in reply to anyone specific, and I didn't read through every post (half maybe).

I've been a Tandem IE for a couple of years now. A bit of a paradox I ran into is when I certify someone who I wouldn't personally allow to work at my DZ. I know, many of you have an immediate reaction that I'm remiss in signing them off in the first place. The training is pretty specific, the candidates are required to have specific experience, and the ability to complete specific tasks. There's no blank for me to sign off that I know this person well enough to say that I trust his judgement, etc. And judgement and/or attitude is generally my primary issue, not jump numbers or skill level.

For instance, I had a TI pass through the area who I allowed to do tandems on a few weekday evenings. I noticed that he was deploying below 5,000', I'd estimate more like 4,000'. I told him matter of fact that I wanted him to deploy at 5,500 for consistency among TIs on my DZ. I didn't need to argue beyond that, my house, my rules. He didn't have issue with it at all, said "Ok, no problem.". On the next jump I exited after him and was under a main canopy at 5,000' with him once again way below me. That was the last tandem he ever did, or ever will do on my DZ. I'd have had more respect for him if he'd have refused to my face to abide by my request, the outcome would have been the same, other than he'd have one less jump at ACDZ.


Ron

Apr 10, 2012, 7:48 AM
Post #57 of 58 (396 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And this is the heart of the issue.
If tandems were truly about training rather than generating revenue, I would also agree about not needing a medical.

And yet hang gliding tandems, paragliding tandems, and commercial balloon flights no medical is required either.

Fact is the FAA does not require a medical for the above or skydiving tandems. It is simply the USPA following the orders of their masters... The PIA and the manufacturers. The USPA has long ago stopped being the organization representing jumpers.


cloudtramp  (D License)

Apr 10, 2012, 12:16 PM
Post #58 of 58 (374 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request) [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And judgement and/or attitude is generally my primary issue, not jump numbers or skill level.

No Doubt. The problem is that a lot of I/E's teaching people from other DZ's have no sense of who people are and when they r done with the course they are done with the student.



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