Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach?

 

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5.samadhi

Apr 2, 2012, 9:28 AM
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90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? Can't Post

I've been experimenting with adding speed with front risers pretty much since the beginning of my skydiving (well around 50-60 jumps doing double fronts). I have begun last 75 jumps to add a front riser carve very conservative sometimes just 45 degrees...lately I have been doing 90-180 degree turn and then going onto double fronts to finish the dive before letting the canopy start the recovery process and flare for landing.

I notice that if I time the 90 to double front transition correctly then I get more speed than if I just did double fronts (but actually not a tremendous amount more). If I mistime the transition (say I delay between the carve and the double fronts), then I lose a lot of the carving turn speed and just end up going as fast as my double fronts let me go (which is faster than normal but not as fast as a slow carving 90-180 gets me going).

I think what is happening is the canopy is recovering from the carving turn and then I am forcing it back into a dive again with the double fronts (which would explain why riser pressure builds during this transition). Does this make sense and am I understanding whats going on correctly???

So if I want to maintain speed of the front riser carve while still giving myself a good margin of error by using double fronts down low then I have to smoothly transition to doubles from the left front riser turn so to not allow the canopy to begin the recovery arc before I want it to???

I'm not ready to give up finishing the landing approach on double fronts because this gives me a really great margin of error for the setup for the carving turn...if I set a bit too low then I just do doubles for 1-2 seconds instead of 3-4 seconds if I set up correctly.

My question is am I holding back my progression with my landing approach by always going into double fronts to finish or can I progress with my approaches (in terms of getting a further plane-out during the flare) and stick with my conservative approach of going to double fronts after the carve to land???


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 2, 2012, 9:48 AM
Post #2 of 68 (3153 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My question is am I holding back my progression with my landing approach by always going into double fronts to finish or can I progress with my approaches (in terms of getting a further plane-out during the flare) and stick with my conservative approach of going to double fronts after the carve to land???

Regardless of your question, the only answer I'm going to give you is that you need to seek some professional coaching. Swooping is not an activity that tolerates guessing and 'figuring' by the uninformed, becasue the consequences of being wrong are dire.

You're on the wrong track in more ways than one. If you have half-a-brain. and vaule your health and welfare, you'll seek out some coaching and put a hold on tyring to figure it out on your own.


freeflyn  (D License)

Apr 2, 2012, 11:13 AM
Post #3 of 68 (3126 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

At no time is using high performance landing techniques "conservative"


matt002

Apr 2, 2012, 12:16 PM
Post #4 of 68 (3105 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

double fronts after the turn is a sign that you are not doing it right, its a bad 'fix' to bad technique that is based in a lack of understanding.
At the stage you are at you really need good coaching, both theory and practical, it will pay dividends and doesn't have to cost the earth.
You need more information that it would be possible to give here, as you are on the steepest part of the learning curve right now.


5.samadhi

Apr 2, 2012, 12:36 PM
Post #5 of 68 (3093 views)
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Re: [matt002] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is safer going to double fronts to burn off the last bit of altitude after the 90 having initiated it higher than? (Is my question of the thread btw)...however I dont want to ingrain bad habits...I'd rather be high after the 90 than low though (hence the need for double fronts after the turn to conserve the speed gained during the turn and use it for lift in the landing).

My reasoning is that I can gain more and more awareness by doing it this way and then when the time comes to progress to a canopy that has a longer recovery arc than the safire 2 I currently fly I can slowly become accustomed to bringing the 90-180 lower to the ground so that double fronts won't be needed.

I probably dont get as much speed out of the landing as with a 90...However it is safer highballing the turn and doing doubles to get me down that last bit...

I always have an 'out' so I can abort the turn early (less than 90) and do a crosswind landing (no problem for me on my current canopy).

Am going to get some coaching when time money permits.

thanks for the responses!Tongue


hokierower  (B 36150)

Apr 2, 2012, 12:40 PM
Post #6 of 68 (3087 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a newer jumper to HP turns and I learned more last week in 10 jumps at CPTS Event 3 with Greg Windmiller than if I had spent 75 jumps trying to figure stuff out.

Advanced canopy course geared towards HP = good.
Learning on my own = bad.


5.samadhi

Apr 2, 2012, 12:49 PM
Post #7 of 68 (3081 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

My basic pattern is the same as when I was on a MANTA student canopy - I am basically initiating my turn to final around 250-300 feet with a 90 degree turn (performed with a front riser and harness input instead of a toggle) and then smoothly holding both front risers to maintain some speed from the turn to provide lift for the canopy to plane out.

For the 180s I have done I have initiated it at 500 and held double fronts to finish the landing.

Before I 'mated' the front riser turn with the double fronts I was flying my pattern with front risers but allowing canopy to recover naturally before double fronts are applied.

progression:
student canopy jumps 1-20
monarch 175
sabre 150
sabre 120 (jumps 80-150) double fronts for first 30 jumps then 45 degree front riser turn to final + double fronts
sabre2 150 jumps 150-170 double fronts for a few jumps then 90 degree turn + double fronts
safire2 139 WL 1.25 jumps 170-210 90+double fronts

I imagine the next logical step in the progression is to get more comfortable and aware during the 90+double front and slowly decrease the amount of time spent on double front risers before allowing canopy to plane out before flaring. Eventually it will just be the front riser turn that generates the speed for lift at the end. But I am giving myself plenty of time (many jumps) before I would feel like venturing into shortening that double front leg of the final approach.

Eventually I could see how a 270 front riser turn would be possible after hundreds of jumps.

I'm landing within 2-5m of target most every jump on my current canopy.

I dont have mad skillz so I am making up with that by being slow about this progression.


5.samadhi

Apr 2, 2012, 12:52 PM
Post #8 of 68 (3078 views)
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Re: [hokierower] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm a newer jumper to HP turns and I learned more last week in 10 jumps at CPTS Event 3 with Greg Windmiller than if I had spent 75 jumps trying to figure stuff out.

Advanced canopy course geared towards HP = good.
Learning on my own = bad.
what was bad about learning on your own? Did you feel in danger on landings? Or do you mean that your learning was much slower than if you had advice from a mentor with experience?


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Apr 2, 2012, 1:00 PM
Post #9 of 68 (3074 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It is safer going to double fronts to burn off the last bit of altitude after the 90 having initiated it higher than? (Is my question of the thread btw)...however I dont want to ingrain bad habits...I'd rather be high after the 90 than low though (hence the need for double fronts after the turn to conserve the speed gained during the turn and use it for lift in the landing).

My reasoning is that I can gain more and more awareness by doing it this way and then when the time comes to progress to a canopy that has a longer recovery arc than the safire 2 I currently fly I can slowly become accustomed to bringing the 90-180 lower to the ground so that double fronts won't be needed.

I probably dont get as much speed out of the landing as with a 90...However it is safer highballing the turn and doing doubles to get me down that last bit...

I always have an 'out' so I can abort the turn early (less than 90) and do a crosswind landing (no problem for me on my current canopy).

Am going to get some coaching when time money permits.

thanks for the responses!Tongue

I tell even students they can practice for swooping on the next jump. Not pulling any risers, but fly a good, preplanned pattern and work on landing accuracy. Those are the essentials.

None is teaching basic canopy course online, find a course for yourself!


matt002

Apr 2, 2012, 1:26 PM
Post #10 of 68 (3063 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

its impossible to 'know what you do not know' and that can be dangerous no matter how slow you try to take things, I know that 'get a coach' was not the answer you were looking for but it is the answer you need right now.

A good coach can provide you with the basic knowledge, technique and structure to your progression, you can then take this foundation to 'self coach' and build larger rotations and manage you canopy progression. It doesn't have to be continuous expensive coaching, its the structure that is important. Don't cheat yourself out of this.


DaVinciflies

Apr 2, 2012, 1:56 PM
Post #11 of 68 (3042 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...I am basically initiating my turn to final around 250-300 feet with a 90 degree turn ....

For the 180s I have done I have initiated it at 500 and held double fronts to finish the landing.

.

How did you arrive at these altitudes?
Are you using a digital altimeter?


hokierower  (B 36150)

Apr 2, 2012, 2:00 PM
Post #12 of 68 (3039 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a tad shy of 150 jumps and don't have any idea about what I don't know. I can read "Canopy and it's Pilot" front to back a dozen times, but for me, actually performing the manuever while being observed and then critiqued makes the idea stick in my brain even more.

Why teach myself and pick up bad habits? Makes much more sense to learn from those who have been there and done that. I learned MUCH more than just HP landings at the course.


5.samadhi

Apr 2, 2012, 2:08 PM
Post #13 of 68 (3030 views)
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Re: [matt002] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
its impossible to 'know what you do not know' and that can be dangerous no matter how slow you try to take things, I know that 'get a coach' was not the answer you were looking for but it is the answer you need right now.

A good coach can provide you with the basic knowledge, technique and structure to your progression, you can then take this foundation to 'self coach' and build larger rotations and manage you canopy progression. It doesn't have to be continuous expensive coaching, its the structure that is important. Don't cheat yourself out of this.

well yes of course. its not an either or thing though (talk about it online or get coaching).

i'll get coaching this summer hopefully if I can take the time off and have money for it (already an expensive sport). I jumped 13 times this weekend though and learned a shit-ton on my own.

its not rocket science landing a parachute...it must be respected but to think you can't learn on your own is ridiculous.

respect to everybody that answered - hope you had some great skydives this weekend Cool


AggieDave  (D License)

Apr 2, 2012, 2:17 PM
Post #14 of 68 (3026 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
its not rocket science landing a parachute...it must be respected but to think you can't learn on your own is ridiculous.

Actually, it is more complicated than you think. I spent hundreds of jumps perfecting a single type of turn to make it more efficient and to get more out of it. I spent many jumps just working on harness control on the roll out. I spent even more jumps working on the right movement to start the turn.

That's after I spent a lot of time dialing in my "window of opportunity" and what my "golden turn altitude" was.

I started off trying to learn on my own, then I met Scott Miller and I took every piece of coaching and classes that he offered. Then I got others to help me and I realized how foolish I was at the beginning (and how lucky I had been to survive).

A few years ago I broke down every single piece of a proper swoop, created out a decision tree and figured that there were a bit over 200 individual pieces of a swoop that had to occur correctly to start the turn. That didn't include the turn its self, roll out or the transition at the bottom.

Learning on the internet will get you hurt/killed.
Learning from a book will get you hurt/killed.
Learning from videos will get you hurt/killed.
Learning from a live-in-person high performance canopy pilot who is also a good coach, will lessen your chances of getting hurt or killed.

Just because you learn the ideas of how it all works by watching videos, talking on the internet and reading a book, it doesn't mean that your apply them correctly or that you are ready to apply a certain technique. Only someone who is actively watching your pattern, approach to turn, turn, roll out and landing can actually help you safely make the right progression.


beowulf  (C License)

Apr 2, 2012, 2:40 PM
Post #15 of 68 (3015 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
its not rocket science landing a parachute...it must be respected but to think you can't learn on your own is ridiculous.

You are referring to the trial and error method of learning. The problem with that is far too often the error part stops you from ever doing anything anymore. Swooping is NOT something that can be learned online or from reading a book.


5.samadhi

Apr 2, 2012, 3:14 PM
Post #16 of 68 (3000 views)
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Re: [beowulf] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

aggie and beowulf and others:

absolute respect to what you're saying. I think there is a miscommunication...nothing I have said was intended to contradict advice about coaching. I have received coaching (nothing beyond the adept swoopers at the dz i learned at giving me) and will get professional swooping advice.

lets get that straight! I was just discussing what I was doing with my current progression not saying I knew it all or anything like that.

fuckin internet man its a waste of time to talk about your passions with other likeminded people I think Laugh


rem

Apr 3, 2012, 3:19 AM
Post #17 of 68 (2908 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

first thing, change your canopy, sabre and safire suck's, go to crossbrace.
second, downsize VERY much! you can't learn at 1.25.
2.25 was a minimum...
third, 90 was way not enough, 630 is, again, a minimum.
four, forget your risers, use only toggle.
five, don't spend money and time with this stupid coach's, LOOK, they have surely already broken all their bodies with their habits...

mouarf.


5.samadhi

Apr 3, 2012, 7:11 AM
Post #18 of 68 (2869 views)
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Re: [rem] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

^ just pile on man with all of your shitty jokes. lets make the forum as uninteresting as possible with as dumbed down humor as we can. lets not actually discuss "swooping and canopy control" here.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 3, 2012, 7:43 AM
Post #19 of 68 (2858 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
^ just pile on man with all of your shitty jokes. lets make the forum as uninteresting as possible with as dumbed down humor as we can. lets not actually discuss "swooping and canopy control" here.

You believe that your post made any more of a contribution?

Aside from letting people know how NOT to proceed, and having some resopnses that reinforce the idea of seeking professional coaching, your post is just as useless as the one you commented on.

Oh, I forgot the other thing your post did, it comfirmed that you're going to pass on the good advice you were given because is wasn't what you wanted to hear.

Pot, kettle, you get the gist.


5.samadhi

Apr 3, 2012, 7:55 AM
Post #20 of 68 (2852 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

ah, well I'm done here, dave, but you must have missed the multiple posts I made saying I agree with the idea of professional coaching and I am going to pursue that this summer (in fact already had my mind made up about that one but thanks for pointing out to me that its a good idea).

Well its been worth it based on AggieDave's post - as usual his writing is very insightful.

peace out guys and gals! Cool


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 3, 2012, 8:05 AM
Post #21 of 68 (2847 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
dave, but you must have missed the multiple posts I made saying I agree with the idea of professional coaching

Nope, saw that, also saw the following, and also read between the lines -
Quote:
I jumped 13 times this weekend though and learned a shit-ton on my own.

its not rocket science landing a parachute...it must be respected but to think you can't learn on your own is ridiculous.

I imagine the next logical step in the progression is

I think what is happening is

My reasoning is that I

i'll get coaching this summer hopefully if I can take the time off and have money for it

If you think those are the words of someone who took the advice given by multiple people to heart, you are sadly mistaken.

Those are the words of someone who wants to sweep that advice to the side, for some possible later date, and continue down the advised-against path they are already on. It clearly displays your attitude, and my error for taking the time to provide an honest reply to your post. Mea culpa, won't happen again.


5.samadhi

Apr 3, 2012, 10:15 AM
Post #22 of 68 (2822 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

thats a fair assessment and hence my earlier voicing of frustration with the process of online discussion (because I don't think what you're seeing is an accurate portrayal of me as a jumper or a discusser). I'd imagine if we talked in person the discussion would go differently.

I blame myself not taking the time to clearly articulate my thoughts!

peace dude Smile


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 3, 2012, 10:24 AM
Post #23 of 68 (2818 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'd imagine if we talked in person the discussion would go differently.

Yeah, because it wouldn't be over the internet, which is the point everyone is trying to make. This is not a venture to undertake on your own. You're right, flying some parachutes in some ways is not rocket science. Flying a HP parachute, or any parachute in a HP fashion, on the other hand, is close to rocket science, except that most rocket scientists don't have to ride in the rocket. You, on the other hand, do have to ride the rocket and personally suffer the consequnces of any mistakes you make in your 'calculations'.

From reading the OP, as previsouly stated, you're already making mistakes. The solution is to stop what you're doing and seek out some training, not look online for advice to continue down that path.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 3, 2012, 10:28 AM
Post #24 of 68 (2817 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Were you around for that Sangi kid, and all his bullshit. Same story as you, thought he could do it on his own, thought he knew what he was doing, did all sorts of 'figuring' on his own, and ultimately drilled himself into the LZ somewhere.

He used to post daily, but as of late he's been quiet. I'm sure learing to walk again takes time, so maybe that's where he is. Do a search for his name and look up the incident thread. He even posted a copy of his Gopro video of his incident.

Same shit, different day? No, same shit, different jumper.


craigbey  (C 31991)

Apr 3, 2012, 2:03 PM
Post #25 of 68 (2777 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] 90 degree front riser carve to double fronts for landing - conservative/safe approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sangi goes big...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF578oSkrKk


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