Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Increase # of returning students

 


burd0352  (D License)

Mar 26, 2012, 10:18 AM
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I want to see what some dropzones or instructors are doing to get their students to keep jumping. Whether it's after tandem or First Jump Course, what do you do? Handouts, discounts, mentor progam, promotional material, etc. What have you found to work the best/worst?

Thanks


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 26, 2012, 4:53 PM
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In reply to:
I want to see what some dropzones or instructors are doing to get their students to keep jumping. Whether it's after tandem or First Jump Course, what do you do? Handouts, discounts, mentor progam, promotional material, etc. What have you found to work the best/worst?

Thanks

I ran a DZ for a few years and we had an unusually high rate of students return.

It was easy. We had full-tilt badass parties every Saturday night and invited, encouraged, coerced, and arm-twisted our students to stay for the festivities. Those who did almost always came back and most became licensed jumpers.

Nothing brings a student back like being asked to party with the coolest people on the planet while they are still high on their experience.


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 26, 2012, 5:20 PM
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On the contrary A Victorian drop zone I REGULARLY WENT TO drove me away from jumping cause they did not like new jumpers researching equipment.

NO one ever asked me to stay around after jumping I think they were glad to see me go.

I am sure their is a brotherhood AND SISTERHOOD (NOTE KGB AND GOLDEN BROWN) but I never experienced it.. in fact the reverse


(This post was edited by gregpso on Mar 26, 2012, 5:47 PM)


demoknite  (D License)

Mar 26, 2012, 5:27 PM
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Those things actually dont make people come back, though the do help. If your DZ has a cool vibe and the locals make an effort to genuinely engage the students and, as mentioned, get to see some after hour activities, thats what gets people back.


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 26, 2012, 5:33 PM
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Yeah I briefly went to another Victorian Drop zone (Bridgewater) and noticed a big difference. FOR THE BETTER


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Mar 26, 2012, 8:57 PM
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i often suggested an idea, which was roundly dismissed by just about EVERYone,,,,,!!!ShockedUnsure
but which i STILL believe WOULD encourage repeat tandems.....

basically, do NOT offer video to First Time Tandem studentsShockedCrazyAngelicTongue
..... If they want to be the U Tube Star , of their own skydiving video,,,, encourage them to make a SECOND jump.... and then,, At THAT point, give them the absolute BEST TAndem Video possible... Cool
WHY would a person wanna spend 200 bucks AGAIn,,,?? to do something that may have scared the hell outta them, the first time...? When all they need to do is sit in front of their TV and Re-Experience jump # 1 over and over again....???? see that big smile again,, literally enjoy the adrenaline rush over and over... at No cost whatsoever??

Call the Fist jump a 'training skydive' and then entice them BACK with the lure of a video on # 2....
hell I , and many of my pals had 1,000s of jumps before EVER seeing even a simple snapshot of ourselves in freefall....and WE came back..... yeah yeah yeah.. I've heard it all.... "some people Only jump the FIRST time because of video..." " you need the videos so that people will Share the excitement, with their friends and encourage THEM to make a jump.."... well SURE.. But those videos Will do the same job,, IF they are given on jumps # 2, 3 or 4... I'm all for giving a student an Ice cream Sundae on jump # 1... but IF we saved the Cherry and Hot fudge, and required a 2nd jump for That... i bet the response WOULD be there.... AND a DZ could GET that advertisement just as effectively....AND increase the retention rate at the same time...

If someone ONLY jumps , Because of said video... my response is,,, They can stay on the ground......
Of course the dropzone, needs to be set Up to accommodate all that extra business, a big plane sure helps , as does adequate gear and staff... But if a place HAS that, then all those 2nd and 3rd jump folks, would not only increase the up and coming jumpers it would put extra revenue into the cash register without having to find NEW folks to fill the manifest.. I'm not a TM but but it seems sensible to me that a person who has ALREADY experienced one tandem jump is a way easier person to take on a 2nd or third.......than Another raw rookie would be, on a first jump.
imho


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 27, 2012, 1:12 AM
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$200 bucks ??? try $399 in Australia I conceed some DZs will give you a second on the same day ONLY for $210 (which they say is below cost price)

I doubt if the cost structures are $200 per jump difference in both countries.

The word profiteering comes to mind.. not much competition either.

First jump AFF course $570


(This post was edited by gregpso on Mar 27, 2012, 2:30 AM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Mar 27, 2012, 2:54 AM
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Quote:
The word profiteering comes to mind.. not much competition either.

First jump AFF course $570

The word "ripoff" comes to my mind....


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Mar 27, 2012, 6:36 AM
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jump tickets are $45 at some dzs here.

oh good Greg found another forum to complain on. thought your account was blocked on SS?

this is going to be fun.


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 27, 2012, 6:43 AM
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Yeah cannot get rid of me that easy !! Convince me the $200 diference in dooms is justified and I will shutup.. for a couple of days. PS do not take me too seriously like the folk on SS did.. this is only cyber space after all. However I like to ask questions I have an inquiring mind.. but it ruined me on SS


(This post was edited by gregpso on Mar 27, 2012, 6:52 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 27, 2012, 8:01 AM
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Sounds like he has a legitimate complaint on the face of it.

The part we don't know about is DZ operating costs.


UliToo  (Student)

Mar 27, 2012, 2:58 PM
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In reply to:
I want to see what some dropzones or instructors are doing to get their students to keep jumping. Whether it's after tandem or First Jump Course, what do you do? Handouts, discounts, mentor progam, promotional material, etc. What have you found to work the best/worst?

Thanks

Why would a student not continue with the sport after spending a lot of money on the training? I've noticed that a lot of posters have few jumps and haven't written for a long time, which makes me believe they don't jump anymore. Maybe it's because I'm pre-AFF Tongue and everything looks exciting from this angle, but I'd think that getting better and learning new things would just make people WANT to come back more. I had no idea DZ's had a problem keeping students.

I guess I'm not contributing to answering your question, but it struck me as odd so I had to pipe in.Tongue


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 27, 2012, 6:07 PM
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Pops here in Australia its a bit strange one is not allowed to question anything. You just have to pay the $399 and dare not ask for the cost breakdown.

Also as a student I dared to raise why skyhooks are not on student gear response " sit down and shut up" !!! (paraphrasing) I am actually banned from AFF at a drop zone because I ask too much stuff.

Trouble is there is only 3000 licence jumpers with only around 1 or two turbine Dzs in each state and some states do not even have that. Not much competition like in the good old USA.

Of course all the DZs are very well run with very good instruction but we pay (over the odds) I think.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Mar 27, 2012, 7:38 PM
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or maybe things are just more expensive here? min wage is around $20/hr right?
tandem here cost around 400 and sport jumps around 40. its about half that much in the states.
it must be a conspiracy by all the evil dzos who just want to steal your money. if so why are some of the member run club dzs here more expensive?

you've been banned from 2 dzs in Australia... one of which i find to be the frendliest I've ever been to. they even put up with me. so if your not welcome there i think its safe to say that your the problem.


jayrech

Mar 27, 2012, 9:42 PM
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If tbey put up with Vader they must be a patient and understanding!


dirtbox  (D 31759)

Mar 27, 2012, 9:56 PM
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Aus is a far more expensive country but so is the level of income ... while the whole gap seems a bit irreconcilable but a lot of it is understandable. You have had your bit in one forum and are only representing one small part of your story... even in the US, where things are much cheaper, people will not give some one a free AFF course and bend over backwards to help you.. I will probably get a warning for this from a mod but you are contributing nothing to this topic (which is an issue of interest at a DZ I now work at) and whining with no valid reason to.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Mar 27, 2012, 11:23 PM
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its ok we can still call him names in the camel paddock. :-)


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 28, 2012, 12:04 AM
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Get your facts right mate I am not banned at Bridgewater Ralph said I can come back whenever I want.

A great friendly place. ps self imposed ban on SS I asked for the account to be suspended remember ?

where in any post have I said anything but eternal gratitude to Ralph and bridgy for the 2 free AFFS ??

For you USA folk this is what happens when you dare ask questions.

Sit down shut up go away !! Pour scorn !!

Good to see all my fans from Aus are following me here

You all take life too seriously. Australian skydiving for what I can see is in great shape and long may it continue. Bit pricey however All drop zones I have been too are well run professional places.... now about skyhooks (LOL)

OK I am leaving here as well. (I am getting stalked half way around the world) LOL

Good luck Good jumping thanks to those who helped me in Aus. For those that hate me good luck to you to. Stay safe

I am very grateful for the experiences I had. Now that I am gone you can all lighten up a bit.

gregdemon/gregpso over and out... Roger that !!


(This post was edited by gregpso on Mar 28, 2012, 12:38 AM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 28, 2012, 7:30 AM
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I always thought that in addition to giving a first time jumper a video of their tandem skydive, DZs should also give them a promotional DVD showing all the cool things that skydivers do AFTER completing training, like bigways, vRW, CRW, wingsuiting, etc.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Mar 28, 2012, 10:45 AM
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In reply to:
... DZs should also give them a promotional DVD showing all the cool things that skydivers do AFTER completing training, like bigways, vRW, CRW, wingsuiting, etc.

I put my old all-disciplines skydive promo movie on the staticline course DVD whenever I am asked to do one Cool


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 28, 2012, 2:54 PM
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Ok one more if your Dz really wants repeat business

1. make students feel welcome (not just customers)

2. invite them to stay afterwards

3. Some times Engage in conversations about other stuff besides jumping. (take personal interest)

4 Do not ignore them when they just turn up to watch !! (ie hello greg ,, jumping today ? " no just watching " back turned walk off ignore rest of day !!

5 "Would you like to see how a canopy is packed come with me !! etc

ps hcvader with the free 2 jumps I got at bridgy I paid for my AFP membership paid full price for a dvd on the second jump and put $50 on the bar. So yes I was still well ahead. THANKS Ralph.


(This post was edited by gregpso on Mar 28, 2012, 5:12 PM)


Rogersmoke

Mar 28, 2012, 6:10 PM
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Anyone wanting to bash greg needs to read what he said.

As a student ANY DZ that did those 5 things would have me for life
All seem to take pride in doing the exact opposite we

are cool you are the nerd now watch my greatness and all the sky gods running around with their nose in the air can kiss my ass
Your ability impresses me but Your attitude stinks

If I want to pay a bunch of money to have a great experience and get treated like shit I have no loyalty for your drop zone


dthames  (B 37674)

Mar 28, 2012, 7:06 PM
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My response might not apply exactly to the original question, but it might be noteworthy. I am a student with some difficulties. Several times I have struggled with the decision to continue or not. My last ditch plan was to start over and do static line training. Still I continue to consider if I really want to continue training or not. I did two jumps last Saturday and the instructor was kind enough to give me raw video footage of my exits. Those have been very helpful to study. By reviewing them over and over, I keep thinking about what I did and what I can do better. I am spending more time considering what I will do in my next jump. It is fresh on my mind (refreshed and relived by the video) and I am eager for my next chance to jump. Would I continue even without the videomost likely. But the video does have some value, at least with me, that will help bring me back.


Rogersmoke

Mar 28, 2012, 7:30 PM
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BUT will it make you come back to skydiving or did that extra effort make you feel like you wanted to go back to that dropzone because you felt like they gave the extra effort
WHAT has a dropzone done for you to make you want to come back outside of risking their life's for your money cause it sure was not for you You are a dollar sign no matter what they tell you unless you hang around long enough and pay them enough

It was not for DAN it was for BEN FRANKLIN LOTS OF THEM
Loving the Fuck up students that they make bets on and laugh behind their back at
How stupid they are. And how much money they will make off the ones who they know have no chance of making it but sure as hell take every fucking penny from them .
Making bets on how many jumps they will last

Hey lets be nice for a second cause they still got a little money left and might go somewhere that actually teaches skydiving instead of taking money just for letting someone jump out of their plane and with me the great sky god.
Treating the ones like my self who breeze through training with no problem also like a dollar

want to help me get a parachute yeah here.s a catalog and order form their eyes light up thinking about that commision and i bet not one mother fucker there knows my name or ever asked me to stay for a beer,
So what makes you want to go back to a dropzone?
Cause I sure would like to find some that act anything like the people that post on these forums

At what point do you bring them in to your private little group OR some just TOURIST i believe you call them forever or until their money is gone?


(This post was edited by Rogersmoke on Mar 28, 2012, 7:33 PM)


dthames  (B 37674)

Mar 28, 2012, 8:32 PM
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In reply to:
BUT will it make you come back to skydiving or did that extra effort make you feel like you wanted to go back to that dropzone because you felt like they gave the extra effort
WHAT has a dropzone done for you to make you want to come back outside of risking their life's for your money cause it sure was not for you....<snip>

Well, for starters they took me as a student after another DZ told me to hit the road after they had passed me on AFF A and B jumps, because I got motion sick.

The owner, staff, and all involved function more like a bunch of friends than a business and customers.

Going for the 5 items......
Yes someone showed me about packing without me asking.

Those that know I have a problem with motion sickness often ask me how I am doing. Maybe it is concern for their car or hair but they seem to care.

It don't matter if you are jumping or not, everyone is right in the middle of everything.

Great concern about safety and following the FAA rules to the letter.

Just Saturday all students were pulled from a load (after we were on the plane) because the winds were 7 gusting to 14 and the DZO thought "better not".

People drive pass one DZ and three hours down the road to get there.

If I said more you would,
1. think I was lying
2. think I owned a share of the business
3. flock to the place and fill up the loads


Rogersmoke

Mar 28, 2012, 9:00 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
BUT will it make you come back to skydiving or did that extra effort make you feel like you wanted to go back to that dropzone because you felt like they gave the extra effort
WHAT has a dropzone done for you to make you want to come back outside of risking their life's for your money cause it sure was not for you....<snip>

Well, for starters they took me as a student after another DZ told me to hit the road after they had passed me on AFF A and B jumps, because I got motion sick.

The owner, staff, and all involved function more like a bunch of friends than a business and customers.

Going for the 5 items......
Yes someone showed me about packing without me asking.

Those that know I have a problem with motion sickness often ask me how I am doing. Maybe it is concern for their car or hair but they seem to care.

It don't matter if you are jumping or not, everyone is right in the middle of everything.

Great concern about safety and following the FAA rules to the letter.

Just Saturday all students were pulled from a load (after we were on the plane) because the winds were 7 gusting to 14 and the DZO thought "better not".

People drive pass one DZ and three hours down the road to get there.

If I said more you would,
1. think I was lying
2. think I owned a share of the business
3. flock to the place and fill up the loads


Rogersmoke

Mar 28, 2012, 9:08 PM
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3. flock to the place and fill up the loads

Dan sounds like you found your home DZ. A place like that I would flock to.
Asked if I could just watch a parachute being packed said that will come later.
How do you get your a license when you never packed a chute?

Answer pay 85 bucks for your next level
ask again when your signed off?
Most people pay packers anyway


(This post was edited by Rogersmoke on Mar 28, 2012, 9:24 PM)


Krip  (Student)

Mar 28, 2012, 10:49 PM
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Roger

Listen up.

Stop your whineing and start traveling.

A DZ isn't going to change to make you happy they don't have to, You have to change DZ's. Lots of fun jumpers do it.Smile

Start traveling and see what the skydive scene is really like. If you can't find something you like quit.

R.


Rogersmoke

Mar 28, 2012, 11:29 PM
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 lost my cool just reality bites , No more whining on here


shropshire  (C License)

Mar 29, 2012, 2:54 AM
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In reply to:
$200 bucks ??? try $399 in Australia I conceed some DZs will give you a second on the same day ONLY for $210 (which they say is below cost price)

Am I missing something 400$-Aus. is about $250 US isn't it? ... so about the same or did I miss something?


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 29, 2012, 3:09 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
$200 bucks ??? try $399 in Australia I conceed some DZs will give you a second on the same day ONLY for $210 (which they say is below cost price)

Am I missing something 400$-Aus. is about $250 US isn't it? ... so about the same or did I miss something?
yes the exchange rate is reversed now, the US dollar sucks donkey dick.
We are getting $1.05USD for $1AUD CoolCoolCoolCoolCool so $400AUD is about $415USD


(This post was edited by Squeak on Mar 29, 2012, 3:11 AM)


shropshire  (C License)

Mar 29, 2012, 3:12 AM
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whoops

Hey how y'doing lad?


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 29, 2012, 3:16 AM
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Some one supporting me thats one in a row!!

Look 2 former drop zones (one turbine and another cessna dz) I jumped at had quite a few friendlies.. very safety conscious no doubt. But there was the attitude that Rogersmoke said as well. I stand by the 5 things I said if DZs want return business.

re skyhooks that as a student I asked about.. one bloke of SS (who had a quite a few jumps) said " greg what possible benefit would a skyhook be to a student.

I mean your kidding.. 1 quicker reserve deployment if student fucks up and pulls cutaway at 700 feet 2 Eliminates reserve pilot chute hesitation 3 No time to go unstable after cutaway is pulled/ APART FROM THAT I CANNOT THINK OF ANYTHING !!!

BRIDGEWATER was more like a club than a business with a lot more friendlies. (way to go RALPH and crew)

Now to the British bloke NO $400 australian is not worth US $250.. it may surprise you but our convict dollar (the mighty Aussie) dollar is $1.04 for every USA dollar thats $416 US and it has been $1.09 this year. I notice the British economy is kicking ass NOT !! (only joking)

I am not leaving now you would missh me too much


(This post was edited by gregpso on Mar 29, 2012, 3:59 AM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 29, 2012, 4:25 AM
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In reply to:
omy is kicking ass NOT !! (only joking)

I am not leaving now you would missh me too much
So you piss all over Skysurfer then ask for yourself to be "Banned"
Now you are going to start up over here, well at least you'll have company like Shah.


Out of curiosity Greg D, why are you hanging around a Skydiving forum when you dont sky dive and never really made a go of doing so?


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Mar 29, 2012, 5:08 AM
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at least shah mans up and jumps


shropshire  (C License)

Mar 29, 2012, 5:26 AM
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In reply to:
at least shah mans up and jumps

and is jolly funny .... not always intentionally - but still.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Mar 29, 2012, 6:04 AM
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when looking for a dropzone to jump at or do aff in Australian its a good idea to keep in mind that there is a very strong tourism industry here and dropzones and their staff can make alto of money doing nothing but tandem jumps. there are some dropzones that do nothing but tandem and offer no aff. there are some dropzones that would allow sport jumpers and offer aff but its not the major money maker. you can get thru your aff at these dzs and have fun as a sport jumper. as a student you may feel cast aside, having to book your student jumps and attend packing class on a Tuesday night in the city.
then there are smaller dzs and clubs. in Victoria euroa and command

os would be an example of both. Euroa is a smaller dz about a half hour past nagambie. few tandem and students. if you go there to learn your going to have the full attention of a couple of instructors who are dedicated to you throughout your training. they will teach you to pack, drink beer with you and answer your stupid student questions
do you know why? because you and maybe 2 other people there are the only students. but you want to jump at the big dz with the shiney plane.
commandos is a club dz in Victoria that really focuses on its students. I've heard they limit the number of tandems so they can keep slots open for students and fun jumpers.

your the one that spent $5000 doing multiple tandems believing what you've been told. you know a fool and his money are soon parted.

for the other students reading this, if you want to get full on attention and have alot of fun learning to jump find he small cessna dz that no one recommends. it will be worth it. when you have people who make their living as skydiving instructors they only get paid for getting on the plane. find the people doing it with their free time on the weekends who actually care if your having fun.


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Mar 29, 2012, 7:53 AM
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In reply to:
if you want to get full on attention and have alot of fun learning to jump find he small cessna dz that no one recommends.

This is, amazingly, pretty good advice!


SivaGanesha  (A 65419)

Mar 29, 2012, 1:28 PM
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In reply to:
A DZ isn't going to change to make you happy they don't have to, You have to change DZ's. Lots of fun jumpers do it.Smile

Just to remind everyone of the context here:

The original question in this thread was how can DZ's change to increase the number of students who stick with the sport after completing various stages of their training.

Rogersmoke made some suggestions based on his own experiences. His experiences may not be everyone's experiences but based on what I've read on here from others, I don't think Rogersmoke is the first young skydiver to ever have an experience like this where he has trouble fitting in after getting off student status.

The response to Rogersmoke was that it is totally unrealistic for the DZ to change and he is the one who has to change.

Can't anyone else see what I can see--that if the goal truly is to increase the number of students who stick with the sport, then neither the DZ (if Rogersmoke's story is true which I cannot verify) nor the community on here are being especially helpful?

If the DZ's goal truly is to increase the number of returning students (the stated subject of this thread) then just possibly it is indeed the DZ that needs to change.

Now if the sport wants to treat all new skydivers (except, perhaps, the young attractive females) as tourists who aren't fully welcomed until they go through some extended rites of passage, then certainly it is the right of the sport and the DZ to act that way. The newbie is indeed new and not in a position to decide how the sport or the DZ is run. But understand that if the sport/DZ chooses to act that way, then the number of students who want to become active skydivers is likely to be small and isn't likely to increase much.

Edited to add: Actually rereading this thread I guess the original question was how to convince students to become licensed jumpers. But if students become licensed and then quit shortly thereafter because they are ignored and aren't being challenged anymore, that doesn't seem like an optimal outcome to me.


(This post was edited by SivaGanesha on Mar 29, 2012, 1:52 PM)


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 29, 2012, 2:03 PM
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Thants right I have not jumped before. hang on 66 times.


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 29, 2012, 2:06 PM
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Back to thread

How about drop zones contact thier students by mail or email asking them

1. Would you like to come back for more.. we can help.

2. Please tell us via email etc what your experience with us was like... how could we do better

A bit of market research etc . like other businesses do !!


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 29, 2012, 2:10 PM
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Hm Euroa not part of the APF bit of an outcast is the owner.. I AM SO THERE SOON !!!!!!!


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 29, 2012, 2:16 PM
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your the one that spent $5000 doing multiple tandems believing what you've been told. you know a fool and his money are soon parted.

For once I have not got an answer for that one. So I have to man up what do the woman do womanup !!

Why do I hang around skydive forums ? I enjoy it and the to and fro debates. And although not a devotee like you I actually like the sport/industry


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Mar 29, 2012, 4:13 PM
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In reply to:
Hm Euroa not part of the APF bit of an outcast is the owner.. I AM SO THERE SOON !!!!!!!

bet everyone at nagambie told you they were devil worshipers haha.


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 29, 2012, 8:34 PM
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I never heard any one mention Euroa I was quite surprised there was a large DZ there.

I contacted the owner and he said Come on down !! (or up)

Quote " greg the APF are not the only people licensed by CASSA to operate skydiving I wish the APF would stop saying they are!!! "

I am going to have a look soon. (maybe it ain "t over after all)

Would like to know why he had a falling out with the APF.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Mar 29, 2012, 9:10 PM
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go check it out dude. good people there.
no one ever said he had a falling out with the apf. the people that started the ASA were free to do so, no reason they couldn't start their own association under casa.
there are actually a few ASA dropzones in Australia and i know a couple APF dzos who have looked into joining.


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 29, 2012, 9:16 PM
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Cheers Hscvader will do


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Mar 29, 2012, 10:13 PM
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In reply to:
or maybe things are just more expensive here? min wage is around $20/hr right?
tandem here cost around 400 and sport jumps around 40.

I see you haven't been home lately.Unsure


(This post was edited by Andrewwhyte on Mar 29, 2012, 10:15 PM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 29, 2012, 11:07 PM
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In reply to:
go check it out dude. good people there.
no one ever said he had a falling out with the apf. the people that started the ASA were free to do so, no reason they couldn't start their own association under casa.
there are actually a few ASA dropzones in Australia and i know a couple APF dzos who have looked into joining.


Something to consider if you want to travel.
Is the ASA affiliated with the FAI, if not you might have issues in other FAI affiliated DZs in other countries. (except Lodi)


Hellis

Mar 30, 2012, 2:00 AM
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In reply to:
re skyhooks that as a student I asked about.. one bloke of SS (who had a quite a few jumps) said " greg what possible benefit would a skyhook be to a student.

I mean your kidding.. 1 quicker reserve deployment if student fucks up and pulls cutaway at 700 feet 2 Eliminates reserve pilot chute hesitation 3 No time to go unstable after cutaway is pulled/ APART FROM THAT I CANNOT THINK OF ANYTHING !!!


To some degree I must agree with this jumper.
If we are talking about AFF students there should not be any cases were a Skyhook is required for the save.
A AFF student should be sadled at 3500-4000 feet, and having a malfunction and riding it down to less than 1000 feet before cuting away is not ok.
Even if the case is that you cut away a low speed malfunction at 3000 feet without an RSL, you still have about 25 seconds untill the AAD fires and ~30 till impact.
And if students are trained to act slower.... Crazy

However, that was in case of AFF.
Static line students are usually sadled lower and have higher risk of beeing unstable.


But if you buy a new student rig the extra cost of ~$250 (?) for the Skyhook is in my opinion worth it as new jumpers sometimes borrow/rent student gear before they buy their own.


dthames  (B 37674)

Mar 30, 2012, 4:11 AM
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In reply to:
I want to see what some dropzones or instructors are doing to get their students to keep jumping. Whether it's after tandem or First Jump Course, what do you do? Handouts, discounts, mentor progam, promotional material, etc. What have you found to work the best/worst?

Thanks

The DZ where I started my AFF offered a discount on the next AFF jump if you booked and paid for it the day of the jump you just made. This was very attractive to me and I took full advantage of it.

If you want to turn a tandem ride into a student, maybe after the tandem ride, offer a discount on the FJC. If the person was in love with the canopy flight, a static line or IAD jump after a tandem ride and a FJC could put a person back in the air for a cost that might tip the scales to bring that person back.


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 31, 2012, 1:30 AM
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What about at the larger drop zones roster one senior skydiver to be laison Officer for the day so any tandem passengers any AFF students or anyone visiting the drop zone can go and ask any question (about skydiving) and get any info about the DZ and what it offers.

Many of the above groups feel a bit uncomfortable just asking any jumper as they feel they are interrupting.

I know when I first starting visiting DZs I was thrilled if any jumper exchanged a few sentences with me (still am)


monkycndo  (D License)

Mar 31, 2012, 5:31 AM
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What happens when the designated person is on a load or is busy teaching?

Instead, just put up signs saying "If you have questions, ask any skydiver you see. But you may have to ask them to STOP talking."Laugh


theplummeter  (C License)

Mar 31, 2012, 9:15 PM
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I think the biggest theme in getting people to return is simply treating them the way you would want to be treated. I regularly jump with people who have 5000 more jumps than I do. They have always gone out of their way to help me out without being condescending and included me in anything that falls within my limited skillset. From day one at my dropzone I never felt like an unwanted student, but more a member of the group that was working towards being capable of doing more with the experienced folks. When I am flying the jump plane I go out of my way to talk to the newer folks and try to convey that same attitude, and there have more jumpers every year than the year prior.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 31, 2012, 10:06 PM
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In reply to:

Instead, just put up signs saying "If you have questions, ask any skydiver you see. But you may have to ask them to STOP talking."Laugh
But what about the poor dears who are to timid and shy to just walk up to people and ask questions. Consider their feeling you mean and selfish skygod you.Mad



SlySlySly You know your an old fart when you can remember when people had enough confidence to jump out of a plane AND talk to people they don't know. Sometimes on the SAME day.


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Mar 31, 2012, 11:16 PM
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maybe they could text the other jumpers ]and ask them if they want to jumpSly


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Apr 11, 2012, 12:07 PM
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In reply to:
However, that was in case of AFF.
Static line students are usually sadled lower and have higher risk of beeing unstable.
Quite apart from the skyhook issue, SL students aren't saddled much lower than AFF-students.

Even jumping from a 182, SL students should be open at 3300 ft. If they are 'unstable', meh - they'll have line twists.
They know what to do about those.

I always say in the FJC that if they ride that twist down to 1000 ft before cutting away, they'll have a serious case of 'my foot up their ass' after landing.

I might just mean it too...Angelic


sebcat  (D 22826)

Apr 11, 2012, 10:11 PM
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In reply to:
Even jumping from a 182, SL students should be open at 3300 ft. If they are 'unstable', meh - they'll have line twists.
Or horse shoes... DZ jargon is one thing but complacency during student training...


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Apr 12, 2012, 10:25 AM
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With direct-bag?

Unlikely.

Nothing complacent about my attitude, Turbine Kid Tongue


(This post was edited by Baksteen on Apr 12, 2012, 10:26 AM)


Hellis

Apr 12, 2012, 11:46 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Even jumping from a 182, SL students should be open at 3300 ft. If they are 'unstable', meh - they'll have line twists.
Or horse shoes... DZ jargon is one thing but complacency during student training...

:facepalm:
I thought you knew all DZ have directbag.
Dissapointed in you
Laugh


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 12, 2012, 12:22 PM
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Re: [Baksteen] Increase # of returning students [In reply to] Can't Post

>With direct-bag? Unlikely.

We ended up with a fair number of horseshoes when we switched to direct bag out of the C206. The problem was that the cargo door was harder to get a good launch out of, and a direct bag deployment "sweeps" the lines from above the student (while the Dbag is still connected to the main) to behind the student (after it releases.) This larger 'sweep' of lines tended to catch arms and legs.

Fortunately most cleared quickly, but I remember at least 5 students who hung from their feet for about 5 seconds and one who had to chop as a result. The number of lost shoes definitely went up after transitioning to direct bag from PCA.


sebcat  (D 22826)

Apr 12, 2012, 4:17 PM
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I actually like the S/L progression, especially over here since it requires more jumps on a student canopy (24-ish vs. AFF's 10) and I also think it's good for the student to focus on the canopy from the beginning, as opposed to freefall skills. That's another discussion though. Bad body position during the deployment sequence is a problem and can regardless of deployment method used cause horse shoes and other problems. Proper training need to take place to mitigate that risk, and a proper attitude should be established early during student training. I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk, but I think it's important.

I say things like that too sometimes but I'm not an instructor and people really shouldn't listen to me :) I try to be good though.

And while I do prefer turbines I did my first S/L's from a C206. FWIW.

Back on topic; our DZ started a mentor thingy this year. I think it's a good idea. I started jumping with a friend and we kept each other motivated during our time as students. I think it's important to have someone to talk to, someone to motivate you, be it a fellow student or a mentor. The problem is, I guess, that you don't really know anyone in the beginning and if you're in an environment that doesn't feel warm and open then it is less fun. The whole social part of skydiving is very important, we all spend more time on the ground than in the air, a lot more.

But if a student really wants to be a licensed skydiver they usually become one. Is it really up to the DZ to motivate them? I don't know, but we, the sport, the club need fresh meat so I guess so. Someone has to fill the slots, right?

No, I think it's more than that. People are interesting, regardless if they're students or world record holders and everyone has nothing to lose and everything to gain if a DZ is warm, fuzzy and welcoming :)

Also, if skydiving was more affordable we'd have more skydivers. But that's controlled by the market and there really is not a lot of things we can do about that. I guess we just have to make sure people think it's worth it, and encourage students to make smart economic choices when it comes to buying stuff so they can spend more money on jumps.


skyguyscott  (D 13458)

Apr 12, 2012, 9:38 PM
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Is it me, or is it really the case that ever since Tandem really became nearly everyone's first (and usually only) jump, the number of licensed skydivers has continued to decline.

Back in the dark ages when my original DZ only offered S/L, there was a motivation to get to free fall. That and a deal they had in place where you could buy a block of 20 (or was it 25?) student jumps for $200. (yeah, that was a while back).

Anyway, back in the days before Tandem, most FJS would stick around for a few jumps, since they had already invested so much of their time in learning how to fly and land the canopy.

Just sayin.


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Apr 12, 2012, 11:57 PM
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@Sebcat; I fully agree with your attitude, but your calling me a complacent instructor based on three lines I wrote on DZ.com kinda rubbed me the wrong way.Wink

In reply to:
>With direct-bag? Unlikely.

We ended up with a fair number of horseshoes when we switched to direct bag out of the C206. The problem was that the cargo door was harder to get a good launch out of, and a direct bag deployment "sweeps" the lines from above the student (while the Dbag is still connected to the main) to behind the student (after it releases.) This larger 'sweep' of lines tended to catch arms and legs.

Fortunately most cleared quickly, but I remember at least 5 students who hung from their feet for about 5 seconds and one who had to chop as a result. The number of lost shoes definitely went up after transitioning to direct bag from PCA.

I was afraid I'd get a response such as thisSmile
Technically, you're absolutely correct, of course.

But for clarity purposes, let's distinguish between
1) a horseshoe as an f'ing scary high speed mal
2) a student getting their arm/leg caught in their lines with at least some kind of parachute above their head.

---

ETA something on topic:
If you're the instructor who's going to give the FJC it's nice to have a little extra time to prepare the classroom and rehearse the lessons you are going to teach.
However, students have been known to show up as early as one hour before the scheduled start of the FJC.

So apart from the instructor(s) who'll do the actual teaching, we also have a schedule for 'FJC hosts'.

The hosts sole responsibility is to make the students feel welcome. This person can even be a student from last weeks FJC. The host is in charge of giving the students a tour of the DZ, drinking a cup of coffee with them, asking the students about themselves, introducing the students to whomever may be present etc. They are also instructed to refer any and all skydiving related questions to the FJC.

Whether or not this helps long-term retention rates I'm not sure - and frankly, we don't even care that much. To us, the important thing is that students say that they feel welcome at our DZ, and that they are approached by a friendly face as soon as they step inside. Smile


(This post was edited by Baksteen on Apr 13, 2012, 1:49 AM)



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