Mar 20, 2012, 4:16 PM
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URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Apache suit owners,
Today in testing, we've found that the pull strength with the auxiliary handles we've shipped out recently on our Apache model wingsuit can be higher than the TSO standard.
Mar 20, 2012, 4:45 PM
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Re: [skydiverek] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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they are a thumb loop on the outside of the suit, attaches to the cables of the reserve and cutaway,
LouDiamond (D 25931)
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Mar 21, 2012, 3:35 PM
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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The following from DZO John Hamilton:
We recently had two jumpers show up at Skydive Elsinore with Tony Suits new Apache Wing. The suits came with auxiliary handles (Thumb loops) which attached to both the cutaway and reserve cables and were routed through slits made in the jumpsuit. This was designed as Tony Suits new Apache Wing-suit actually covered access to both the cutaway and reserve handles.
This obviously posed concerns as it could of been a violation of the TSO testing which each rig manufacturer has to go through with the modification and usage of the Reserve Parachute.
When we pull tested the equipment, we found that the pull test resulted in forces exceeding the TSO testing standards of 22 pounds. Upon contacting Tony Uruagallo of Tony Suits and shared this information, he immediately conducted further testing and found the same results when the thumb loop were attached and issued the following statement:
Apache suit owners,
Today in testing, we've found that the pull strength with the auxiliary handles we've shipped out recently on our Apache model wing suit can be higher than the TSO standard.
We recommend you NOT use them.
Tony
Tonysuits
Fellow DZO's, please be on the lookout for anyone jumping Apache Wing Suits with the usage of Auxiliary Handles (Thumb loops). There can be mod's done on the Apache Wing-suits from the manufacturer or qualified rigger which places the handles in their original configuration and accessible to the outside of the Wing-suit
Mar 21, 2012, 6:12 PM
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Shouldn't these kind of features be tested under different circumstances and configurations and be proven 100% reliable BEFORE the product goes on sale?
(This post was edited by Teigen on Mar 21, 2012, 6:12 PM)
Mar 21, 2012, 8:04 PM
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Re: [Teigen] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Shouldn't these kind of features be tested under different circumstances and configurations and be proven 100% reliable BEFORE the product goes on sale?
Maybe people should have tried to use the product in methods not originally intended. It was always designed as a BASE suit.
Mar 22, 2012, 9:42 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Maybe young up-jumpers need more guidance in their gear selection due to a lack of knowledge.
I firmly believe this needs to be made aware more direct to EVERY jumper. TS should notify USPA and all forms of jumper information via the industry publications and parent governing bodies worldwide.
Mar 22, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #13 of 67
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Re: [diablopilot] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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If it was designed for BASE, why the need for the handles THAT COME WITH IT TO USE FOR SKYDIVING???
cpoxon (D 11665)
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Mar 22, 2012, 10:53 AM
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Re: [normiss] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Any idea how many (factory) modified Apaches are in the field? Presumably TS has contact details for every customer with modified suits and has contacted them personally? Still, they should contact the NGBs and publicatons as you say. Nothing to stop people contacting their own NGBs as well.
The BPA has been made aware of the issue and the info should have been disseminated down to all DZs by now.
Mar 22, 2012, 12:17 PM
Post #16 of 67
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Re: [diablopilot] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Shouldn't these kind of features be tested under different circumstances and configurations and be proven 100% reliable BEFORE the product goes on sale?
Maybe people should have tried to use the product in methods not originally intended. It was alwaysoriginally designed as a BASE suit.
If Tony had stuck to his guns and kept it as a BASE only suit, this wouldn't be an issue. As soon as you start offering factory mods to let customers skydive it, you can't say it wasn't intended for skydiving.
And if you design those mods, you should probably do some testing on them before you release them.
cpoxon (D 11665)
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Mar 22, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #17 of 67
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Re: [normiss] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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If it was designed for BASE, why the need for the handles THAT COME WITH IT TO USE FOR SKYDIVING???
Whilst designed for very experienced Wingsuit pilots, surely one would still be advised to explore the flight envelope of a new suit with as much altitude as possible i.e. from a plane, rather than from a fixed object.
cpoxon (D 11665)
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Mar 22, 2012, 12:45 PM
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Re: [normiss] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Presumably? You good with that?
I give.
I don't give a shit. I don't jump those damn things anyway.
carry on.
I'll stop worrying about people surviving this sport. This damn place doesn't care anyway.
"Presumably" is a polite British way of suggesting that is one of the things that should be done.
No, I'm not good with it, which is why I forwarded the details to my NGB to ensure it was disseminated,even with the small chance there are modified suits in the UK and the people jumping them aren't intelligent enough to realise what a bad idea they are in their current configuration.
Mar 22, 2012, 12:54 PM
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Re: [jakee] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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I don't base, but would'nt it be a really bad idea to test jump a new suit in the base enviroment ? The base jumpers I've met do lots of practice jumps from planes with new suits.
Mar 22, 2012, 1:10 PM
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Re: [cpoxon] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Whilst designed for very experienced Wingsuit pilots, surely one would still be advised to explore the flight envelope of a new suit with as much altitude as possible i.e. from a plane, rather than from a fixed object.
This was exactly the reason why these two guys showed up at Skydive Elsinore.
cpoxon (D 11665)
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Mar 22, 2012, 1:35 PM
Post #22 of 67
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Re: [normiss] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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If it was designed for BASE, why the need for the handles THAT COME WITH IT TO USE FOR SKYDIVING???
Mar 23, 2012, 10:50 AM
Post #26 of 67
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Re: [splat123] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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I don't base, but would'nt it be a really bad idea to test jump a new suit in the base enviroment ? The base jumpers I've met do lots of practice jumps from planes with new suits.
You can't practice BASE exits or anything like them in skydiving (unless you're lucky enough to have a balloon) so you will always be test jumping a new suit in the BASE environment anyway. And compared to exiting, flying straight and level is a piece of piss. Especially if you have anything like the requisite experience on other huge suits before you get an Apache.
Mar 24, 2012, 11:51 AM
Post #29 of 67
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Re: [johnmatrix] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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No!!!!!!!!!!! Jumping BASE gear is totally dangerous from aircraft but is completely safe from solid objects. That's why we have laws to protect us. What are you, some kind of anarchist?
Mar 27, 2012, 6:23 AM
Post #31 of 67
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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In reply to:
Apache suit owners,
Today in testing, we've found that the pull strength with the auxiliary handles we've shipped out recently on our Apache model wingsuit can be higher than the TSO standard.
That's a bit of an understatement of the situation. The tests in the video below shows cutaway pull force exceeds 30lbs and the metal reserve cable cannot be pulled even with more than 50lbs force applied in any direction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zJFQdOs1Ic
In reply to:
We recommend you NOT use them.
Recommend? You should insist that none of these suits are used for skydiving until the problem is properly analysed, fixed and tested. This is a fatality waiting to happen. The subject of your post says 'URGENT' why is this information not on your facebook page or website?
Mar 27, 2012, 9:03 AM
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Re: [unclecharlie95] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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One look at that handle system and the first thing anyone with any mechanical aptitude is going to say is, "uh...that might massively increase pull forces".
I can understand if some subtle thing were missed in testing, but it is so ludicrously, freakingly obvious that that system might fail and needs careful testing.
At least it wasn't exactly a mass market product aimed at newbies.
Mar 27, 2012, 10:19 AM
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Re: [pchapman] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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One look at that handle system and the first thing anyone with any mechanical aptitude is going to say is, "uh...that might massively increase pull forces".
Exactly my thoughts... Pulling the steal cable at 90 degrees...
(This post was edited by skydiverek on Mar 27, 2012, 10:20 AM)
Mar 28, 2012, 1:56 PM
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Re: [jonmurrell] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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The appache add on handles in the video consisted of a french link that was placed around the reserve cable between the handle and housing that was connected to loop located outside the suit. (cutaway was the same) It showed the apache reserve side add on handle being pulled on while in a flying configuration in several different directions (according to the directions and others) with about 50 pounds of force applied and no reserve activation. it showed that without the suit in place but using the apache attachment directly that it took about forty pounds of force to activate the reserve and only because the real reserve handle was able to come out its pocket and the force was then transferred into a normal pull configuration. It also showed that it took about forty pounds of force to pull the cutaway cables using the apache add on handles.
Mar 29, 2012, 11:38 PM
Post #40 of 67
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Re: [pattersd] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Quote:
french link that was placed around the reserve cable between the handle and housing that was connected to loop located outside the suit. (cutaway was the same)
I wanted to buy an Apache for a while but I never got my hands on one for very long and I didn't get to see the cutaway system. That's a horrible design and I'm surprised that it only took 50 pounds to activate.
Is that the setup the manufacturer recommends? Do Apache pilots normally skydive with their reserve/cutaway handles out of the pockets?
Mar 29, 2012, 11:52 PM
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Re: [jonmurrell] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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That's a horrible design and I'm surprised that it only took 50 pounds to activate.
The reserve did not activate with the suit closed, even with in excess of 50lbs applied is various directions, and even with the reserve out of the pocket.
The activation at 50lbs occured with the suit open, so the handle could move away from the jumper.
DSE (D 29060)
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Mar 30, 2012, 8:12 AM
Post #42 of 67
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Re: [jonmurrell] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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And the test video is not available "due to a copywrite claim by Douglas Spotted Eagle." Uh???
Anyone who saw it want to describe it for the rest of us?
The video was made for industry/manufacturer-eyes only, and out of respect for the manufacturer and their crew, it was not public. Someone copied the footage and put it on YouTube without my authorization. I asked YouTube to remove it because I still feel the manufacturer should be the one responding to the public. To be clear for those that didn't see it; while using the thumbloops, no amount of pull force resulted in a reserve activation on multiple tests. This result may vary somewhat from rig to rig.
Apr 2, 2012, 2:50 AM
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Re: [piisfish] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Do you seriously think we care about the "respect for the manufacturer?" Why not call out a shitty solution, that's sold to the public in public, and spur some innovation? I'm uncurrent, relatively inexperienced and not even a gear manufacturer/salesperson but I could build a better solution to that problem in about 30 minutes (I bet most heads up jumpers probably already have) Hint: cantilever = bad
It's supposedly a BASE-specific suit, so who cares anyways. There's no way that anyone would market and sell a BASE-specific suit with a shoddy workaround so the rest of us can use it, right?
That said, what a person shares is up to them. Even after the video, I'd probably still want to buy an Apache (not to skydive with) if the lead time wasn't so long.
Apr 2, 2012, 5:03 AM
Post #46 of 67
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Re: [jonmurrell] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Look everyone, an armchair quarterback.
Whom ever said the problem is the 90 degree direction of pull is the problem is incorrect. Think of how an RSL works. The problem is the distance of available pull and the force available.
Study what the testing force requirements on a TSO'd ripcord re and you'll see why.
Apr 2, 2012, 6:08 AM
Post #47 of 67
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Re: [diablopilot] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Yep, that's me, and from my armchair I'd say that if it was TSO'd 50 pounds should be more than enough, regardless of direction, and if I could read I'd say that AS8015B does also.
I thought I remembered something about moments, transmitting force, and axial loading in a book too, but I'm a moron it seems. This is evidenced by the fact that when carrying steel bars, wooden beams or other relatively rigid items through doorways I prefer to hold them sidewise and push reeeeaaallly hard, sometimes I pull too.
Anyone want to join me in disavowing the principles of physics? I have another armchair somewhere.
Apr 2, 2012, 5:41 PM
Post #48 of 67
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Re: [jonmurrell] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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So if the direction of pull is the problem, riddle me why an RSL can pull the pin at 90 degrees to the cable at less then the weight of a fully packed rig?
Apr 3, 2012, 4:55 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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why an RSL can pull the pin at 90 degrees to the cable at less then the weight of a fully packed rig?
That sure depends on the rig! No problem on an older Vector II I played with, but not for a tight 24-25 lb heavy Wings I just tried. Even in an idealized zero cable drag situation, with the weight being divided along both directions along the cable which is bent out in a loop, that's only some 12 lbs pulling on the ripcord pin, well under the pull force for a tight newly packed rig.
As for the video, I was snuck a link to one of those file upload sites, depositfiles.com/files/l3harefp0
Seems to work. At least it isn't out on youtube for the general public; but sure is handy for debugging the issue without having to simulate the situation at home.
Who knows exactly where the extra drag comes from. If it might take 20 lbs to pop the pin for a tight rig, that's 40 lbs split between both ends of the cable. If 50 lbs on the scale didn't pull it, there's over 10 lbs of hidden extra drag in there somewhere. Possible sources might be: (a) pulling against the ripcord handle - true for some of the pull directions used in the video but not all of them, (b) drag of the ripcord cable around the end ferrule of the ripcord housing (less slick than an RSL guide ring), and (c) friction of the cable going through the slot in the suit - even though the slot does have some length to allow the ripcord cable to bulge out.
One would have to look at the drag of ripcord cables going around corners of fabric, ripcord housings, and as a comparison (to fit with what diablopilot was pointing out), RSL rings.
Edit:
I tried an experiment just now with an old ripcord cable, housing, and two scales. To get a 20 lb pull on a pin, by pulling the cable at 90 degrees at the far end of the housing, it took 25 or often 30 lbs of pull -- the number varied as the cable alternately caught and slipped a bit as it ground into the edge of the housing ferrule.
This was for a ripcord housing secured right up to the ferrule, as some rigs do it. Others allow the last inch or so of the ripcord housing to bend freely, creating a much larger radius, which I confirmed drastically reduces the extra drag "around the corner"
I'm sure it would go smoother if bending the cable around an RSL ring instead.
The rig in the video, a Voodoo, has the ripcord housing secured right at the end with an Oetiker clamp. Not so good for off axis pulls!
Yet there is still some flex, in that the whole lift web can bend and twist to allow the housing to curve, so the ripcord cable isn't right at 90 degrees to the housing any more. That's seen near the end of the video where they pop the reserve at 40 lbs when not pulling through the suit. There might be less twist in the air with the harness loaded, or when pulling through the suit.
So I think the 'around the corner of the housing pull' is a big factor in the problem, especially on certain rigs.
(This post was edited by pchapman on Apr 3, 2012, 5:30 PM)
DSE (D 29060)
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Apr 3, 2012, 5:40 PM
Post #51 of 67
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Re: [pchapman] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Since the video has been uploaded to YouTube three more times, I'm done playing tag with it. Apologies to Tony's crew; we tried to keep it quiet out of respect for him having the opportunity to address owners and potential buyers. http://vimeo.com/38615978 is where the original video may be seen, and downloaded.
There are other "tests" that aren't seen on the video.
Apr 4, 2012, 10:54 AM
Post #52 of 67
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Tony is working with the main US rig manufacturers on a TSO friendly system to allow BASE jumpers to practice with the Apache(and other new suits) from the plane.
The handles were obvioulsy not the solution and have rightly been discontinued.
May 11, 2012, 10:12 AM
Post #56 of 67
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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EDIT: I removed your post for the following reason, so please do not repost this.
As of right now, Tony Suits website and the statement in post #1 from the Manufacturer (Tony Suits) states to cease using this feature. Until such time as the manufacturer either rescinds or modifies this statement to the general public, it is still in effect.
(This post was edited by LouDiamond on May 11, 2012, 10:39 AM)
DSE (D 29060)
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May 13, 2012, 11:15 AM
Post #58 of 67
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Im very shocked the video of the system working was removed, I heard the rig that was tested in Elsinore tested way over the Limit on its own, I have to listen to all the crap that Ignorents like Marks COCKrans "death suit" but can't show my side.... why was it removed, how does that help people learn?
anyway with the help of Bill Booth himself we have 2 new systems to jump these suits, Don't let the haters deter you from the new way,
Quote:
I heard the rig that was tested in Elsinore tested way over the Limit on its own,
That's a flat-out lie.
[edit] to clarify based on a PM I've just received, I did not remove your link, Tony. I am not a moderator in the wingsuit forum and cannot remove/hide/delete/modify any post in this forum.
For you to say the rig in Elsinore was "way over the limits on its own" is a lie. Who told you this? There were several people in the room, they all saw exactly what the video shows. None of them would lie about it.
Can't you just admit an error was made and you're working/have worked to correct it? Seems simple enough.
(This post was edited by LouDiamond on May 13, 2012, 1:20 PM)
May 13, 2012, 11:22 AM
Post #59 of 67
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Re: [DSE] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Then I was told wrong, so who removed the video of it working correctly ?
DSE (D 29060)
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May 13, 2012, 11:33 AM
Post #60 of 67
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Then I was told wrong, so who removed the video of it working correctly ?
Who told you the rig pulled "way over the limits?" I know who was in the room (and they're all on video). I'd appreciate a name.
Only Craig, Scott, Meso or Tom can hide/delete posts. If you were to read the post above yours, it's pretty clear that Scott/LouDiamond removed the link and he explains why. Call off your dogs; it was explained, and you merely missed the explanation. You're welcome.
(This post was edited by DSE on May 13, 2012, 11:48 AM)
May 13, 2012, 12:44 PM
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Re: [DSE] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Nice Spot... Surely the suit was without issue...why else would Tony have Bill come in to fix it?
I can't understand why Tony would need his help for a suit with no issues.....
The childish name calling surely will help though. Even more so when you try to insult someone and you can't even spell the fucking words fucking properly.
Safety third. Money first.
LouDiamond (D 25931)
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May 13, 2012, 1:18 PM
Post #63 of 67
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Quote:
Im very shocked the video of the system working was removed
Tony, it was I who removed the post and for the reasons I annotated, which subsequently are in line with what is on your website and was published in the parachutist among other skydiving magazines, that being to NOT use the system. Until which time that you(Tony Urgallo/TonySuits) publicly announce in these same mediums that the system has been fixed and is safe to use and Tony Suits endorses its use, the discontinue use notice that you (Tony Urgallo/TonySuits) issued will remain in effect. Videos/statements showing otherwise will be removed as they could potentially mislead someone into believing that it is ok to use their system when it has a potentially fatal flaw and it has not been fixed. When Tony Suits issue an official statement that is contrary to the current one, these videos will be allowed but not until then.
If you wish to discuss this matter with me in further detail, please feel to PM, E-mail or call me.
DSE (D 29060)
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Jul 22, 2012, 9:43 AM
Post #65 of 67
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Re: [unclecharlie95] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles
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Tony is working with the main US rig manufacturers on a TSO friendly system to allow BASE jumpers to practice with the Apache(and other new suits) from the plane.
The handles were obvioulsy not the solution and have rightly been discontinued.
We were promised an SB on this matter; it never materialized. Your post hints at a manufacturer-designed response to this issue, is it forthcoming? There are pictures of a well-known wingsuit pilot flying this suit at Perris with no thumbloops and no handles, so it makes one wonder if there is a manufacturer-designed mod yet?
(This post was edited by DSE on Jul 22, 2012, 1:51 PM)
Jul 23, 2012, 11:18 AM
Post #67 of 67
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When we jumped in Perris in April there was a big note at the entry to office/manifest: "Apaches are grounded until a modification by manufacturer is available..." I should have taken a pic of it, but still I wonder why they seem to let jump people with Apaches right on the only one DZ I've seen having this note. We were told to wear helmets until 1K explicitly in the plane there and not having them attached to the chest strap plus a TI thought I had my Skyhook shackle attached the wrong way. So a safe DZ overall I thought...
