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Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia

 

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killler  (D License)

Mar 9, 2012, 5:15 PM
Post #26 of 54 (1737 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

     I have taught 100's of first jump classes, And put 100's of students out.... Have 100's of hours flying the jumpers.... It's really all just a blur ....

BUT.... I remember every " SPECIAL " student I have ever helped skydive... I have them all on" my highlight reel of life " Some things in life are worth the extra mile...

Killler....


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 9, 2012, 9:17 PM
Post #27 of 54 (1726 views)
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Re: [killler] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have taught 100's of first jump classes, And put 100's of students out.... Have 100's of hours flying the jumpers.... It's really all just a blur ....

BUT.... I remember every " SPECIAL " student I have ever helped skydive... I have them all on" my highlight reel of life " Some things in life are worth the extra mile...

Killler....

Oh yeah, its the unusual students that you always remember. And thanks for taking care of them. Cool


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 10, 2012, 8:20 AM
Post #28 of 54 (1717 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You want to compare deafness to uncontrolled epilepsy & mental retardation? That's just brilliant, but wholly irrelevant. As we all know. No, skydiving is not for everyone. Deafness is not one of the disqualifiers, Dan. I'm sorry (& rather surprised) you feel it should be. I don't know the guy. I'm going off info from someone who does. You seem to have a hair trigger in trying to protect your AFF friends in VA.

Try reading what I wrote. I specifically said there's nothing wrong with a deaf person skydiving. Your post implied that anyone covered by the ADA should be allowed access to skydiving instruction. That's what bristled me.


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Mar 10, 2012, 9:43 AM
Post #29 of 54 (1711 views)
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Re: [DanG] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

It just dawned on me that once we're out the door, we are ALL deaf, and use sign language to communicate with each other.......Smile


PiLFy  (A License)

Mar 10, 2012, 5:56 PM
Post #30 of 54 (1693 views)
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Re: [DanG] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

"I specifically said there's nothing wrong with a deaf person skydiving."

Yes, you did. You then strongly inferred something else must be wrong w/this guy. This, despite very indication that there isn't.

Never mind, Dan. Others are already solving the problem for this guy while you continue being pissy.


PiLFy  (A License)

Mar 10, 2012, 5:58 PM
Post #31 of 54 (1692 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

Precisely Smile. That makes freefall a level playing field.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Mar 10, 2012, 8:19 PM
Post #32 of 54 (1688 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

Does the student read lips? That is a huge variable. How much hearing, if any, is there? Is there a concurrent vision impairment? (There are a lot of deaf/blind linkages). My expertise is vision loss, and I have taught a legally blind skydiver (retinitis pigmentosa) to skydive. If the student can read lips, shoot me a PM and I"ll put the student in touch with an AFF instructor I know in VA.

Jen


LPrimavera  (A License)

Mar 11, 2012, 12:41 AM
Post #33 of 54 (1684 views)
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Re: [DanG] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Try reading what I wrote. I specifically said there's nothing wrong with a deaf person skydiving. Your post implied that anyone covered by the ADA should be allowed access to skydiving instruction. That's what bristled me.

I understand the implication made.
And the following is just a personal opinion concerning the ADA... While the ADA can help, it definitely has done some damage to the disabled community (silly Reagan!). For instance, it allows my "equally disabled by law" fat as fuck peers to take advantage of the system. As an example; I do not use the designated disabled parking anymore, but there was a time I did just that, only to be shouted at by these bitches.

As far as the topic at hand... Good luck to anyone and everyone learning AFF - I just finished myself :)


chopaka  (D 29376)

Mar 11, 2012, 11:33 AM
Post #34 of 54 (1663 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't read through the thread--just adding this in case it is of any help. The DZ isn't close to VA, but Linda at the Ranch in NY trained a deaf student from Tandem I through to his A license just last year. It would traveling to NY, probably for long weekends or a vacation, but I am sure that she would do it again.

And, for what it's worth, the guy is a killer canopy pilot because, in his words, he actually has to pay attention. After watching him nail the peas in conditions at the edge of a student's ability, Linda couldn't contain her excitement, congratulating him over and over. His reply: "What's the big deal--I'm deaf, not stupid."


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 11, 2012, 12:34 PM
Post #35 of 54 (1660 views)
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Re: [peregrinerose] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Does the student read lips? That is a huge variable. How much hearing, if any, is there? Is there a concurrent vision impairment? (There are a lot of deaf/blind linkages). My expertise is vision loss, and I have taught a legally blind skydiver (retinitis pigmentosa) to skydive. If the student can read lips, shoot me a PM and I"ll put the student in touch with an AFF instructor I know in VA.

Jen

He's taken care of by now, but thanks. It shouldn't matter if he reads lips or not as long as reasonable accommodations are made to help him understand the course material. Even a pad of paper and pen or cell phone with the notepad app on. Tongue

One of our most decorated and well-known deaf skydivers - John Woo, is totally deaf, AND blind in one eye (from having a rock thrown at him when he was a kid growing up in Hong Kong). He has a ridiculous list of big way records going back two decades, including the Pops world record, and also did classic accuracy competitions back in the day when it was popular.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Mar 12, 2012, 5:20 AM
Post #36 of 54 (1627 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

I would not want to have to teach a FJC with just pen/paper as communication. That would take freaking forever. That's why I asked about lip reading. A sign interpreter would also work, but that's not particularly helpful in the plane. I have a lot of deaf and deaf/blind patients, so it's not like I'm unfamiliar with working with folks with all kinds of sensory disorders and different compensatory skills.


mx757  (C License)

Mar 12, 2012, 11:30 AM
Post #37 of 54 (1607 views)
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Re: [DanG] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
He has already proven he's safe in the air.

No, he hasn't. The OP refered to him as a "sort of" pilot. You're assuming a lot.

In reply to:
They excluded him for a handicap he can, & has, overcome before.

Again, assuming. We don't know if they excluded him because of his hearing or not. I'd be surprised, knowing most of the people involved, if that were the case.

In reply to:
Do you wear glasses, Dan? Would you want to be excluded from this & other activities because someone felt the risk of your glasses getting knocked off was too great?

Gosh, you're right! The glasses analogy really made it click for me. The almost 500 jumps I made with a prosthetic limb didn't help me understand disabilities at all.

Like I said, skydiving is not for everyone. If a severely retarded man showed up at the DZ and wanted to do a static line, would you protest if the DZ turned him away? How about someone with uncontrolled epilepsy? Maybe there's something else going on with the guy mentioned in the OP, all we have to go on is the fact that at least 3 DZs turned him away. Do you think maybe they know something we don't?

Dan G. .. I know the guy Billy Vance is talking about, yes he IS a DEAF Private pilot like me. I've flew with him an other deaf pilots on cross country flights in St. Louis back in 2005...we (group of deaf pilots) flew several aircraft to several city's in Missouri / Illinois.

you want MY opinion why the dropzone won't train him? he is deaf & black.


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 12, 2012, 11:36 AM
Post #38 of 54 (1604 views)
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Re: [mx757] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
he is deaf & black.

Mike,

Sorry, but that's fucked up. There is absolutely no way the DZOs I know would turn this guy away because he's black. I already said I doubted they would turn him away because he's deaf. In fact, Jim Crouch, in the other thread about this in the Instructors forum, asked for Billy to put the guy in touch with him. Seems to me like he wasn't actually turned away from all the Virginia DZs in the first place, since Jim is one of the DZOs.

I think this whole situation sounds (no pun intended) like a lot of miscommunication.


PiLFy  (A License)

Mar 12, 2012, 1:54 PM
Post #39 of 54 (1588 views)
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Re: [DanG] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
he is deaf & black.

Mike,

Sorry, but that's fucked up. There is absolutely no way the DZOs I know would turn this guy away because he's black. I already said I doubted they would turn him away because he's deaf. In fact, Jim Crouch, in the other thread about this in the Instructors forum, asked for Billy to put the guy in touch with him. Seems to me like he wasn't actually turned away from all the Virginia DZs in the first place, since Jim is one of the DZOs.

I think this whole situation sounds (no pun intended) like a lot of miscommunication.

Yep, there you go again:

"He has contacted every DZ in Virginia, and every one of them turned him down!"

Billy,
Have him call us again at Virginia Skydiving Center and we will take care of him. 804-466-0215.
Jim"



DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 12, 2012, 2:06 PM
Post #40 of 54 (1587 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

Stop stalking me.


PiLFy  (A License)

Mar 12, 2012, 2:47 PM
Post #41 of 54 (1581 views)
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Re: [DanG] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Stop stalking me.

Stalking? Who is stalking? You made claims I don't agree with. I rebutted them. You then made a claim that isn't true. I answered it. That's not stalking.


mx757  (C License)

Mar 12, 2012, 4:49 PM
Post #42 of 54 (1574 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
he is deaf & black.

Mike,

Sorry, but that's fucked up. There is absolutely no way the DZOs I know would turn this guy away because he's black. I already said I doubted they would turn him away because he's deaf. In fact, Jim Crouch, in the other thread about this in the Instructors forum, asked for Billy to put the guy in touch with him. Seems to me like he wasn't actually turned away from all the Virginia DZs in the first place, since Jim is one of the DZOs.

hope is is just a bad case of miscommunication.


I think this whole situation sounds (no pun intended) like a lot of miscommunication.

Yep, there you go again:

"He has contacted every DZ in Virginia, and every one of them turned him down!"

Billy,
Have him call us again at Virginia Skydiving Center and we will take care of him. 804-466-0215.
Jim"


livendive  (D 21415)

Mar 13, 2012, 10:50 AM
Post #43 of 54 (1543 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm sorry to read this. Not Cool. This comes to mind: http://www.ada.gov/

If decency won't prompt them to do the right thing. Fear of financial penalties might.

Any prospective student who threatened me with financial repurcussions if I didn't let him jump would be gladly accepted into and promptly flunked out of first jump course, not because of physical impairments, but rather his shockingly bad judgement. I've taken some students in the past that were certainly higher risk, but I've also declined many students, mostly due to weight issues, or medical problems, but also sometimes because I just wasn't communicating well with them, or they didn't seem to understand the instructions and/or risk. When you're the instructor putting your family's home and livelihood on the line with each and every student, then you can come tell us whether you think you should be required to say yes to any student physically capable of skydiving.

Blues,
Dave


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 13, 2012, 1:05 PM
Post #44 of 54 (1539 views)
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Re: [livendive] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm sorry to read this. Not Cool. This comes to mind: http://www.ada.gov/

If decency won't prompt them to do the right thing. Fear of financial penalties might.

Any prospective student who threatened me with financial repurcussions if I didn't let him jump would be gladly accepted into and promptly flunked out of first jump course, not because of physical impairments, but rather his shockingly bad judgement. I've taken some students in the past that were certainly higher risk, but I've also declined many students, mostly due to weight issues, or medical problems, but also sometimes because I just wasn't communicating well with them, or they didn't seem to understand the instructions and/or risk. When you're the instructor putting your family's home and livelihood on the line with each and every student, then you can come tell us whether you think you should be required to say yes to any student physically capable of skydiving.

Blues,
Dave

Yeah, this is why I thought the Michigan/Ohio group handled their beef with a drop zone badly by suing them in court. They just didn't understand the ADA law and its loopholes and went all militant on the DZ. Bad move. Unsure


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 13, 2012, 1:08 PM
Post #45 of 54 (1536 views)
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Re: [mx757] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
he is deaf & black.

Mike,

Sorry, but that's fucked up. There is absolutely no way the DZOs I know would turn this guy away because he's black. I already said I doubted they would turn him away because he's deaf. In fact, Jim Crouch, in the other thread about this in the Instructors forum, asked for Billy to put the guy in touch with him. Seems to me like he wasn't actually turned away from all the Virginia DZs in the first place, since Jim is one of the DZOs.

hope is is just a bad case of miscommunication.


I think this whole situation sounds (no pun intended) like a lot of miscommunication.

Yep, there you go again:

"He has contacted every DZ in Virginia, and every one of them turned him down!"

Billy,
Have him call us again at Virginia Skydiving Center and we will take care of him. 804-466-0215.
Jim"

I am sure he just talked to the wrong person there who was just clueless. I have had communications with Jim Crouch in the past. He's always been a stand-up guy as far as I'm concerned.

I'm still waiting to see if the guy in question has made any progress.


PiLFy  (A License)

Mar 13, 2012, 1:52 PM
Post #46 of 54 (1534 views)
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Re: [livendive] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

"When you're the instructor putting your family's home and livelihood on the line with each and every student, then you can come tell us whether you think you should be required to say yes to any student physically capable of skydiving."

Hi Dave,
Nice Avatar Tongue. You're twisting words a bit. I never said anyone who is physically able to jump, should. In this case, an otherwise proven-capable gentleman was declined only because he can't hear. That is an entirely different scenario than what you suggested.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 17, 2012, 8:30 PM
Post #47 of 54 (1465 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

Update:

The guy starts AFF training the first weekend of May! Thanks to all who sent in their offers to help! Cool


BillyVance  (D 18895)

May 29, 2012, 11:46 AM
Post #48 of 54 (1182 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

Update: The student in question has completed his CAT A, at a DZ in NC. Cool He's sticking with it. Smile


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

May 30, 2012, 7:13 AM
Post #49 of 54 (1128 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Update: The student in question has completed his CAT A, at a DZ in NC. Cool He's sticking with it. Smile

Sweet!


DrizZ  (C 39369)

May 30, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #50 of 54 (1109 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Heads up to AFF-I's in Virginia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Update: The student in question has completed his CAT A, at a DZ in NC. Cool He's sticking with it. Smile

Good stuff. Just for the record (for future posters), Cat and Pinecone (her husband) are back in VA, based out of Orange. We do have a few deaf jumpers come through somewhat on the reg aside from Cat.


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