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Butt strap to prevent falling out of a harness

 


sunkenstate  (A License)

Mar 5, 2012, 11:12 PM
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Just got my A, a rig of my own, and a 50 jump package! Woo hoo!

And then I went home, put the rig on properly fastened, bent over at the waist and effortlessly slid backwards out of the harness (see: http://makeithappen.com/spsj/fallout.html).

At the risk of being slightly less fashionable or perceived as paranoid, I plan on getting a butt strap made. I just don't want to be thinking about this stuff - or putting myself at risk - as I'm learning and having fun in the air.

Because I plan on getting one, does anyone HAVE such a strap or have recommendations on proper fitting / placement of a custom-made butt strap (note: not just a bungee)?

I did some forum searches, but didn't see much beyond general discussion.


ferrarimv

Mar 6, 2012, 12:30 AM
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+1 to this.....would also LOVE to find out more..


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Mar 6, 2012, 1:20 AM
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Worry about things that actually DO happen, instead.

If you have to modify the rig, invest in belly band, which will actually make the 'hole' in the harness smaller, by bringing your rig closer to you.


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Mar 6, 2012, 2:30 AM)


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Mar 6, 2012, 1:47 AM
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In reply to:
(note: not just a bungee)?

How come not just a bungee?

The hole happens because your leg straps can travel. The bungee stops them from doing that. No travel, no hole, no falling out.

Similar idea: your chest strap doesn't physically support your weight on opening - it holds your main lift web (the hint is in the name) in place. Your weight is held by the leg straps, and supported by the MLW, risers, lines, up to the canopy.

@skydiverek, I think he is worrying about "things that actually happen". There has been at least one sport fatality that I know of, and one dz.commer has found herself hanging from her knees after opening, if I remember correctly. It's rare, but it's certainly happened.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Mar 6, 2012, 2:35 AM
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In reply to:
@skydiverek, I think he is worrying about "things that actually happen". There has been at least one sport fatality that I know of, and one dz.commer has found herself hanging from her knees after opening, if I remember correctly. It's rare, but it's certainly happened.

I am aware of one fatality (student in Namibia with waaaaay too large rig). So, the problem was somewhere else.

What the rig fitted properly, and of proper size, in the second accident that you are quoting?

Anyways, worry about things that happen more often than one in 50 million jumps Wink. (Approx 5 million jumps are made each year worldwide).




airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 4:02 AM
Post #6 of 37 (3636 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
@skydiverek, I think he is worrying about "things that actually happen". There has been at least one sport fatality that I know of, and one dz.commer has found herself hanging from her knees after opening, if I remember correctly. It's rare, but it's certainly happened.

I am aware of one fatality (student in Namibia with waaaaay too large rig). So, the problem was somewhere else.

What the rig fitted properly, and of proper size, in the second accident that you are quoting?

Anyways, worry about things that happen more often than one in 50 million jumps Wink. (Approx 5 million jumps are made each year worldwide).


The woman that had it happen posts here and yes the rig was the right size.

My Beer! jump on a brand new CUSTOM made perfectly fitted rig had my butt in the hole with the legstraps at my knees during a back-loop.

I slid them back up in free fall well before opening but skerrid me enuf to get a bungee on for the 2nd and every jump since.

It CAN happen.

Someone (MakeItHappen I think) posted a drawing regarding making a solid saddle strap that slips on over the legstraps, simple to make and use...if the OP feels more comfortable utilizing something like that who's to tell them it's a bad idea?

I know a few 'old school' jumpers that use such a set-up, 30-35 years ago ALL the harnesses came that way. Sly


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Mar 6, 2012, 5:19 AM
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In reply to:
The woman that had it happen posts here and yes the rig was the right size.

Can you provide a link to her post?

Was she using the bungee?

Were you using the bungee during your incident?


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 5:50 AM
Post #8 of 37 (3585 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The woman that had it happen posts here and yes the rig was the right size.

Can you provide a link to her post?

Was she using the bungee?

Were you using the bungee during your incident?


I don't know if she was, I did not have a bungee on my new rig, it was the 1st jump on it. My prior rig didn't have an articulated harness and was actually a bit small for me so I never needed a bungee on it.

It was quite a shock to feel the new rig slip down like that, I was plenty high enough to reach down and pull the leg straps back in place and just lay flat & stable until pull time...

10 minutes after landing I had a bungee fitted and in place, won't ever jump that rig without one.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 5:56 AM
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http://www.dropzone.com/...post=1906126#1906126

Interesting reading~

http://makeithappen.com/spsj/fallout.html


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 6, 2012, 5:57 AM
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Quote:
does anyone HAVE such a strap or have recommendations on proper fitting / placement of a custom-made butt strap (note: not just a bungee)?

Just go with the bungee. It's not a 'static' area in that you need to have some independent movement of your legstraps, and the bungees allows for that. It's a simple mod that any rigger could sew up for you in about 15 min for a not very much money.

Have them stich a small loop of binding tape to the binding tape along the legstrap pads, and then thread a length of bungee through the loops and tie it off. This way when the bungee starts to wear or fray, you can just cut it off and tie on a new one yourself.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Mar 6, 2012, 6:07 AM
Post #11 of 37 (3561 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The woman that had it happen posts here and yes the rig was the right size.

Can you provide a link to her post?

Was she using the bungee?

No and no. The incident gets mentioned occasionally when this discussion comes up.

Right now she and her husband are down in Nicaragua getting drunk and running amok.

She is a former gymnast and very flexible. She found herself hanging by her knees and armpits after opening. No "butt strap."

To the OP: If you insist on a strap, one can be made easily. Most jumpers are satisfied with a simple bungee made from shock cord. All you need is the little loops on your legstrap pads. Most new rigs have them already. If not, it's 5 minutes with a bartack machine to make and attach them.
Talk to your local rigger to see what your options are.

Edit to change from legstraps to legstrap pads. Duh. Blush


(This post was edited by wolfriverjoe on Mar 6, 2012, 6:58 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 6, 2012, 6:20 AM
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In reply to:
At the risk of being slightly less fashionable or perceived as paranoid, I plan on getting a butt strap made. I just don't want to be thinking about this stuff - or putting myself at risk - as I'm learning and having fun in the air.

I'm positively impressed that you are so much concerned with skydiving safety. Good on you and I sincerely hope that you apply that attitude to all aspects of skydiving.

Forget fashionable.

Fashionable is NOT fashionable.
(I can't believe I said that like that. Laugh)

First and foremost is safety...all else pales in comparison.

You have a good suggestion on the bungee using good reasoning for it. And, just for grins, the bungee IS fashionable!

But you do whatever YOU want that makes you comfortable as long as it is safe.
Personally, I'd rather be safe while looking like a clown than be unsafe while being skydiving's poster boy of fashion.


I'm certainly glad that 'poster boy of fashion' is not one of my career goals...I'd never achieve it.
LaughLaughUnsure


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 6:35 AM
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I'm certainly glad that 'poster boy of fashion' is not one of my career goals...I'd never achieve it.

In reply to:

A self-aware man...I Like It! WinkSly


stayhigh  (F 111)

Mar 6, 2012, 6:41 AM
Post #14 of 37 (3529 views)
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If you arch thru the opening and have your body relatively straight you won't have issue.

if you go completely limp like some tandem students, you'll have chance of jack knifing thru the leg strap.


sunkenstate  (A License)

Mar 6, 2012, 11:28 AM
Post #15 of 37 (3443 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Butt strap to prevent falling out of a harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the comments, all. It sounds like the butt strap isn't getting much use beyond the bungee mod (or when it is standard).

A belly strap would be a little more involved for my container, as the legs are not articulated. I suppose it could still be done, however.

I will probably have the bungee mod made, but maybe make it so the bungee ties back on itself on each side instead of just relying on a knot that might compress and slip through the fabric loop under force. I'll probably also get the strap made, then make the call to use it or not as time goes on. The leg straps have B12 snaps (love these things - so convenient!) so it would be super easy to take it on or off as required.

On a side note, it is crazy to look at a climbing harness, in which the legs are always connected to one another, the front, and back of the belt; OSHA fall protection body harnesses; and then a skydiving rig, which could be confused with the daypack I'm wearing in my profile pic. Only without the hip strap. Crazy Ah well. I'll report back. Blueskies.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 11:36 AM
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In reply to:
I know a few 'old school' jumpers that use such a set-up, 30-35 years ago ALL the harnesses came that way.

You know, one of these days, someone will invent a reserve that mounts on the front of your rig - you know, right where you can grab it real easy. A novel idea, I know. Then, only old farts and assholes will have their reserves on their backs, while all the really cool kids have them on front.

So sez my crystal ball.

Yeh, solid saddles and belly-bands. Cutting-edge innovation at its finest.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Mar 6, 2012, 11:37 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 11:59 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I know a few 'old school' jumpers that use such a set-up, 30-35 years ago ALL the harnesses came that way.

You know, one of these days, someone will invent a reserve that mounts on the front of your rig - you know, right where you can grab it real easy. A novel idea, I know. Then, only old farts and assholes will have their reserves on their backs, while all the really cool kids have them on front.

So sez my crystal ball.

Yeh, solid saddles and belly-bands. Cutting-edge innovation at its finest.

I wuz thinkin' the exact same thing!

No need for a big long bridle to snag yer GoPro, hell no need for a pilot-chute at all, just grab some canopy and toss it out! Wink


Divalent  (C 40494)

Mar 6, 2012, 12:24 PM
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Good thinking outside the box, but you need to go further: mains on the front too!

PC in tow? None of that "oh shit, what's going on ... can't reach ... can't see ... (should I cut away first or not?) ... arrgggghhhh!" It's all right there: look, assess, fix. Simplicity = safety.

And bonus: students wouldn't need to learn to arch!


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 12:32 PM
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In reply to:
Good thinking outside the box, but you need to go further: mains on the front too!

PC in tow? None of that "oh shit, what's going on ... can't reach ... can't see ... (should I cut away first or not?) ... arrgggghhhh!" It's all right there: look, assess, fix. Simplicity = safety.

And bonus: students wouldn't need to learn to arch!


Naaa...we can keep the main on the backside, just invent a new/safer way of deploying them!

I dunno...maybe have a handle up front...with wire on it that goes through a loop on the container. The jumper could LOOK at the handle and yank on it manually to open the whole container up, maybe design some kind of pilot-chute with a spring like thing in it that would jump out.

Heck throw some elastic straps on the main container to help pull it open even faster!

I think we're on to something here! Cool


Divalent  (C 40494)

Mar 6, 2012, 12:47 PM
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Well, you might be right, although I'm thinking more along safety lines here. Of course, injuries from canopy collisions are more prevalent than total mals, and I bet a major contributor is those sharp corners on the canopy. I wonder if they could make them with some sort of shape that doesn't have corners? (Does such a shape exist?)


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 12:53 PM
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In reply to:
Well, you might be right, although I'm thinking more along safety lines here. Of course, injuries from canopy collisions are more prevalent than total mals, and I bet a major contributor is those sharp corners on the canopy. I wonder if they could make them with some sort of shape that doesn't have corners? (Does such a shape exist?)

Interesting concept...someone should check into that! Just might be some money to be made!!Cool


BrianSGermain  (D 11154)

Mar 6, 2012, 1:55 PM
Post #22 of 37 (3322 views)
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Re: [sunkenstate] Butt strap to prevent falling out of a harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Make it high up, and elastic so you don't limit the degree to which you can harness turn your parachute. Without harness input, your turns are uncoordinated and you risk collapsing in turbulence.
See article: "Clean Up Your Turns"

The truth is, unless your rig does not fit you, the likelihood of falling out of a properly adjusted harness are almost zero. The few on record are overweight tandem students. Do not mistake the magnitude of repulsion for the probability of actualization. (In other words, when something really freaks us out, we tend to assign a higher probability to that possibility.)

Tighten your chest strap before your legstraps, and the rig should hold you in just fine.

Fearless Skies,
Brian


(This post was edited by BrianSGermain on Mar 6, 2012, 1:57 PM)


stayhigh  (F 111)

Mar 6, 2012, 9:34 PM
Post #23 of 37 (3226 views)
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Overweight tandem students, with improper fitted harness would be the right answer.

I've seen plenty of overweight tandem students jump and stay inside the harness, even without y-mod.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 10:19 PM
Post #24 of 37 (3213 views)
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The truth is, unless your rig does not fit you, the likelihood of falling out of a properly adjusted harness are almost zero. The few on record are overweight tandem students.


In reply to:
~Almost zero?! SlyWink

I dunno Brian, I'm tall, flexible and not overweight...I almost fell out, and the harness was adjusted correctly, doing a pike into a back-loop slid it up and almost off...premature opening and I'd be history.



And I'm not the only one~
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4213791#4213791


Also~
As shown in Jan's page, http://makeithappen.com/spsj/fallout.html
the pic in the mirage ad show a couple of jumpers that if they had a premature deployment would obviously go through the hole...leg straps at mid thigh, butt out and arms up.


BrianSGermain  (D 11154)

Mar 6, 2012, 10:35 PM
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If people feel safer with a butt strap, they should attach a butt strap. My point is that it doesn't actually happen all that often. We are making a big deal out of something, but on the whole, it is a non-issue for most people. If your body type, combined with your particular harness, combined with your flying style makes you more vulnerable that the average skydiver, address the issue. The point I was making is that the exception should not be made to appear to be the rule. That is how we lost our right to carry water bottles on commercial airliners.

Please do not be offended if my comments do not apply to you. I just want to be sure that new jumpers do not get overly paranoid that they are going to fall out of their rigs.

Fly Safe,
Brian


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 11:37 PM
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Please do not be offended if my comments do not apply to you. I just want to be sure that new jumpers do not get overly paranoid that they are going to fall out of their rigs.

In reply to:

No offense taken of course, and while i understand your point and agree that being overly paranoid about a seldom seen situation is counterproductive, it's no more-so than complacency.

Falling out of a parachute harness is extremely unlikely, however it IS possible, obviously several measures can be taken to lower the possibility even more.

Things don't always go to plan and equipment isn't always used as it's designed to be...if a bungee relieves the stress of concern and gives even a small degree of increased safety, that's a win/win ~ I'm all for it.

...that's all I'm saying.


BrianSGermain  (D 11154)

Mar 7, 2012, 1:31 AM
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We are both right. I love it when that happens. :-)


mchamp  (D 32129)

Mar 7, 2012, 2:11 AM
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I like your thinking! Feel free to post your leg strap/butt strap idea here http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25; There are some interesting legitimate ideas I saw there.

Any sort of idea's in one location I think is great, also allows the manufacturers to see potential improvements and get ideas from the consumers and potentially implement it within their rigs.

Actually right around the time I mentioned my leg straps loosening up while in the plane or walking to the plane with my rig a manufacturer offered a non-slip option right around the time I wrote it(already developed but with another manufacturer)! I thought that was amazing having that option!


(This post was edited by mchamp on Mar 7, 2012, 2:16 AM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 7, 2012, 6:39 AM
Post #29 of 37 (744 views)
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In reply to:
We are both right. I love it when that happens. :-)

I've known my wife for over 30 years, and I'm still waiting to hear her say that.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 7, 2012, 9:11 AM
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Let's not discourage people from making their gear safer by rationalizing likelihood.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Mar 7, 2012, 9:13 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 7, 2012, 1:53 PM
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>Let's not discourage people from making their gear safer by rationalizing likelihood.

At the same time, let's not make changes that might pose additional problems without thinking about it and evaluating the risks on both sides.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 7, 2012, 4:33 PM
Post #32 of 37 (654 views)
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"
In reply to:
... I will probably have the bungee mod made, but maybe make it so the bungee ties back on itself on each side instead of just relying on a knot that might compress and slip through the fabric loop under force. ...
"

...............................................................

If you can't tie knots, tie lots.
Hah!
Hah!
Seriously, make the largest and ugliest knot you can think of and it will never pull through the tape loop on your leg pads.
I have made a few butt bungees from old Safety-Stows. I just cut them at the end of the doubled section and tie a knot with the doubled section, then tie a larger and uglier knot in the other end.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 7, 2012, 4:40 PM
Post #33 of 37 (651 views)
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Agreed!
This problem only appeared after two changes in skydiving fashions.
First, hip rings were introduced (1991). Most of the complaints came form SECOND owners of ringed harnesses. Several of these second owners were significantly smaller than the first owners.

Secondly, sit-flying fell into fashion a few years later (1994). Now that skydivers were exposing their harnesses to winds - from unusual directions never imagined by harness designers - they started operating "outside the envelope."

Every new skydiving discipline creates new challenges for parachute designers.


MakeItHappen

Mar 7, 2012, 6:48 PM
Post #34 of 37 (631 views)
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In reply to:
If people feel safer with a butt strap, they should attach a butt strap. My point is that it doesn't actually happen all that often. We are making a big deal out of something, but on the whole, it is a non-issue for most people. If your body type, combined with your particular harness, combined with your flying style makes you more vulnerable that the average skydiver, address the issue. The point I was making is that the exception should not be made to appear to be the rule. That is how we lost our right to carry water bottles on commercial airliners.

Please do not be offended if my comments do not apply to you. I just want to be sure that new jumpers do not get overly paranoid that they are going to fall out of their rigs.

Fly Safe,
Brian

To the OP & Brian,

I am aware that the fall out issue on individual sport rigs is small.
The hazard probability of occurrence strongly depends on the jumper-gear match.
To ignore that the hazard exists is to bury your head in the sand.
The butt strap that I show in my article can be made by any rigger.
It's not complicated and only needs one or two measurements.
Steering the canopy is facilitated by the butt strap.

.


Doperope  (B 40018)

Mar 10, 2012, 10:24 AM
Post #35 of 37 (534 views)
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Interesting, you have really given me something to marinate on here. I have wondered, from time to time, why parachute harnesses did not have a slide out prevention system and climbing harnesses do.

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Climbing/Harnesses/PRD~5025-325/wild-country-syncro-ziplock-harness-unisex.jsp

(Can't make "clicky" FML)


(This post was edited by Doperope on Mar 10, 2012, 10:25 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 10, 2012, 10:28 AM
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In reply to:
Interesting, you have really given me something to marinate on here. I have wondered, from time to time, why parachute harnesses did not have a slide out prevention system and climbing harnesses do.

http://www.mec.ca/...k-harness-unisex.jsp
(Can't make "clicky" FML)


Spills  (B 36648)

Mar 12, 2012, 1:31 AM
Post #37 of 37 (461 views)
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I just got my new wings this weekend and it came with a little bungee. I had to put it on myself but it came from wings. "Handsome" Dave was jumping and I asked him what he thought about it and I got the usual "that should work, haaaahaaahaaa!".



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