Forums: Archive: 2013-2015 USPA BOD Elections:
New BSR Affects Everyone

 

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diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 8, 2012, 2:54 PM
Post #51 of 90 (1396 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

The chairperson usually does not vote unless needed to break a tie.


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 8, 2012, 3:59 PM
Post #52 of 90 (1387 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, so if 3 people voted no and none of them were Todd Spillers, how could it have passed?


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 8, 2012, 4:42 PM
Post #53 of 90 (1378 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

Again, I am not certain but I think Randy Allison may have been filling in for Mr. Mulliins. I will check into it for an exact vote. Randy is on here maybe he can ellaborate.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Mar 9, 2012, 7:34 AM
Post #54 of 90 (1342 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, I am not certain but I think Randy Allison may have been filling in for Mr. Mulliins. I will check into it for an exact vote. Randy is on here maybe he can ellaborate.

What does that mean?

Matt


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 9, 2012, 7:42 AM
Post #55 of 90 (1339 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

Mike Mullins who is on the committee was not present. Randy Allison who is an advisor to the committee may have been filling in for him for the vote regarding the age bsr.

I am not sure of the exact vote I am trying to reach out for the answer. I dont know how it will help.

I can update you a bit. The implementation has been tabled until after the next meeting to allow more deliberation. Apparently, some directors have changed their minds for whatever reason.

I also know there was some scuttlebutt about it not being officially on the agenda in a timely fashion, allowing those with comments or concerns the time to show up.

Again, I am just trying to clarify the best I can.


MakeItHappen

Mar 9, 2012, 7:47 AM
Post #56 of 90 (1337 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Again, I am not certain but I think Randy Allison may have been filling in for Mr. Mulliins. I will check into it for an exact vote. Randy is on here maybe he can ellaborate.

What does that mean?

Matt

It means that USPA is flippant on how the abide by the bylaws and parliamentary authority.

The vote of the FB was 12 ayes - 6 nays - 1 abstain

.


(This post was edited by MakeItHappen on Mar 9, 2012, 8:26 AM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Mar 9, 2012, 7:55 AM
Post #57 of 90 (1335 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Again, I am not certain but I think Randy Allison may have been filling in for Mr. Mulliins. I will check into it for an exact vote. Randy is on here maybe he can ellaborate.

What does that mean?

Matt

It means that USPA is flippant on how the abide by the bylaws and parliamentary authority.
IIRC, Jay voted for the motion. The President is an ex-officio member of all appointed committees.

The vote of the FB was 12 ayes - 6 nays - 1 abstain

.

So the BSR should never have made it out of committee?

And members of the BOD wonder why I shredded my second renewal notice and called to say don't send the third.

Matt


MakeItHappen

Mar 9, 2012, 8:14 AM
Post #58 of 90 (1331 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So the BSR should never have made it out of committee?

I do not know how you reached that conclusion.
I do not have a record of the Comm vote, but it did have a majority.


.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Mar 9, 2012, 10:10 AM
Post #59 of 90 (1312 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So the BSR should never have made it out of committee?

I do not know how you reached that conclusion.
I do not have a record of the Comm vote, but it did have a majority.


.

In reading the history of the posts it appears there is a debate on that "majority" part.

Matt


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 10, 2012, 5:07 AM
Post #60 of 90 (1276 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
....Please feel free to provide input.....

Maybe I'm being a bit simple-minded, but the BSR's already require us to follow FAR's, and the FAR's require users of equipment to follow the manufacturer's terms of use.

Doesn't that mean if a manufacturer places an age restriction on the use of its gear that we are already obligated by the BSR's to abide by it?


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Mar 10, 2012, 9:12 AM
Post #61 of 90 (1260 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

Chuck,

You ask a great question. I do not want to give the wrong answer, so let me reach out to confirm before I make myself look stupid. I am pretty sure Mike Mullins will know the ins and outs of it.

Also, it is was my understanding that the TSO of the rig has a plays an important role. In fact speaking to Ted Strong, he told me at the last meeting that he was goin gto change the TSO to include age.


sacex250

Mar 10, 2012, 1:56 PM
Post #62 of 90 (1239 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
....Please feel free to provide input.....

Maybe I'm being a bit simple-minded, but the BSR's already require us to follow FAR's, and the FAR's require users of equipment to follow the manufacturer's terms of use.

Doesn't that mean if a manufacturer places an age restriction on the use of its gear that we are already obligated by the BSR's to abide by it?

Where does it say that the manufacturer can specify the "terms of use"? The FARs only specify that tandems be "maintained" per manufacturer's instructions.

The new BSR seems to empower all manufacturers, not just tandems, to specify age limits for their gear.

Can you think of any other sport or activity in which a minimum age limit is mandated by the manufacturer?


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Mar 10, 2012, 2:04 PM
Post #63 of 90 (1238 views)
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Re: [sacex250] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
....Please feel free to provide input.....

Maybe I'm being a bit simple-minded, but the BSR's already require us to follow FAR's, and the FAR's require users of equipment to follow the manufacturer's terms of use.

Doesn't that mean if a manufacturer places an age restriction on the use of its gear that we are already obligated by the BSR's to abide by it?

Where does it say that the manufacturer can specify the "terms of use"? The FARs only specify that tandems be "maintained" per manufacturer's instructions.

The new BSR seems to empower all manufacturers, not just tandems, to specify age limits for their gear.

Can you think of any other sport or activity in which a minimum age limit is mandated by the manufacturer?

Not off hand, but I can also not think of a sport so small and sued for such high numbers. You could say what about dirt bikes, the manufacturer is huge compared to skydiving and has millions in sales quarterly.

The Manufacturers would not be in this position of they, their users and the national body had all agreed to enforce the rules they had in place. They got lazy, let things go "this one time", time, and time again. Now they have to put their foot down, and in so doing press the feet of others to the fire.

Matt


sacex250

Mar 10, 2012, 2:04 PM
Post #64 of 90 (1235 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Also, it is was my understanding that the TSO of the rig has a plays an important role. In fact speaking to Ted Strong, he told me at the last meeting that he was goin gto change the TSO to include age.

I don't think that's possible, at least, it better not be.

How would it be if aircraft manufacturers could suddenly change their Type Certificate Data Sheets to prohibit pilots under the age of consent from flying their aircraft?

This is a case of the manufacturers being worse than the lawyers.


(This post was edited by sacex250 on Mar 10, 2012, 2:05 PM)


sacex250

Mar 10, 2012, 2:25 PM
Post #65 of 90 (1235 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not off hand, but I can also not think of a sport so small and sued for such high numbers. You could say what about dirt bikes, the manufacturer is huge compared to skydiving and has millions in sales quarterly.

The Manufacturers would not be in this position of they, their users and the national body had all agreed to enforce the rules they had in place. They got lazy, let things go "this one time", time, and time again. Now they have to put their foot down, and in so doing press the feet of others to the fire.
Do you actually have any numbers to support that, or is your imagination running away with you?

Your analogy to the size of the sport is not valid. Bicycle manufacturers may sell thousands upon thousands of bicycles intended for use by children for just a few hundred dollars but their liablility is not proportional to the purchase price, however, their liability exposure grows proportionally with each bicycle sold.

Do you really want to spend $5,000 dollars, on a product your life depends on, from manufacturers who have done everything they can to limit use of the product to just the people least likely to win a lawsuit? There's something unethical, or at least fishy, about that!


(This post was edited by sacex250 on Mar 10, 2012, 2:27 PM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Mar 10, 2012, 4:41 PM
Post #66 of 90 (1216 views)
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Re: [sacex250] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Not off hand, but I can also not think of a sport so small and sued for such high numbers. You could say what about dirt bikes, the manufacturer is huge compared to skydiving and has millions in sales quarterly.

The Manufacturers would not be in this position of they, their users and the national body had all agreed to enforce the rules they had in place. They got lazy, let things go "this one time", time, and time again. Now they have to put their foot down, and in so doing press the feet of others to the fire.
Do you actually have any numbers to support that, or is your imagination running away with you?

Your analogy to the size of the sport is not valid. Bicycle manufacturers may sell thousands upon thousands of bicycles intended for use by children for just a few hundred dollars but their liablility is not proportional to the purchase price, however, their liability exposure grows proportionally with each bicycle sold.

Do you really want to spend $5,000 dollars, on a product your life depends on, from manufacturers who have done everything they can to limit use of the product to just the people least likely to win a lawsuit? There's something unethical, or at least fishy, about that!

Dirt Bikes means Motorcycle in my world, sorry if that confused you. Now in that context it should make sense.

For the last 12 years as a T-I and I/E, I have watched the whole group previously named do exactly what I said.

Now they are in a corner and have to act.

If it was not in the US, it would not be an issue, but it is what it is. The US has litigated itself through lack of personal accountability to this position and manufacturers have to take actions.

So no my imagination is not running wild. There are thread after thread and incident report after incident report full of data to back the Manufacturers decision up.

Matt

Matt


sacex250

Mar 10, 2012, 6:06 PM
Post #67 of 90 (1203 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I understood that you were talking about motorcycles, I used bicycles as a different example. Now regarding motorcycles, have the manufacturers stopped making and selling motorcycles and ATVs for kids? The answer is No!

My question about whether you had any numbers was in reference to skydiving lawsuits which you claim, "I can also not think of a sport so small and sued for such high numbers."

The truth of the matter is that skydiving lawsuits are rare, and the vast majority of them are dismissed before trial. The Parachute Center in Lodi has been sued three times since 2000, the first two were dismissed, and Parachute Center won the third one; yet, there have been 7+ fatalities there in the last ten years.

And how many equipment manufacturers have lost or settled lawsuits in the past ten years? I'm sorry but there is no crisis of litigation that is threatening the sport or the manufacturers no matter how much you want to believe it so you can hate on the United States judicial system.

The BSR before the BOD is nothing but a preemptive power grab by PIA and the manufacturers to manipulate USPA, and its members, for their own self-serving purposes. You can't blame the lawyers or the courts for this one; it's the manufacturers that are deliberately doing it to the sport.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 10, 2012, 6:22 PM
Post #68 of 90 (1201 views)
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Re: [sacex250] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

Now regarding motorcycles, have the manufacturers stopped making and selling motorcycles and ATVs for kids? The answer is No!

In reply to:

Wanna bet?
Attachments: kid.jpg (13.3 KB)


sacex250

Mar 10, 2012, 7:55 PM
Post #69 of 90 (1191 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now regarding motorcycles, have the manufacturers stopped making and selling motorcycles and ATVs for kids? The answer is No!

In reply to:

Wanna bet?

Well, they still make motorcycles and ATVs for kids.

They don't make three-wheelers in general anymore because of lawsuits and went to 4-wheelers instead.

Tried to buy a new round-canopy lately?


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 10, 2012, 8:03 PM
Post #70 of 90 (1186 views)
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Re: [sacex250] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Tried to buy a new round-canopy lately?


Yup..last year.

http://www.strongparachutes.com/...ergency/midlite.html


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 10, 2012, 8:08 PM
Post #71 of 90 (1188 views)
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Re: [sacex250] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
....Please feel free to provide input.....

Maybe I'm being a bit simple-minded, but the BSR's already require us to follow FAR's, and the FAR's require users of equipment to follow the manufacturer's terms of use.

Doesn't that mean if a manufacturer places an age restriction on the use of its gear that we are already obligated by the BSR's to abide by it?

Where does it say that the manufacturer can specify the "terms of use"? The FARs only specify that tandems be "maintained" per manufacturer's instructions.

The new BSR seems to empower all manufacturers, not just tandems, to specify age limits for their gear.

Can you think of any other sport or activity in which a minimum age limit is mandated by the manufacturer?

The BSR's do not empower the manufacturers. The manufacturers have the ultimate power over the use of their gear to begin with.

The FAA dictates that the manufacturer of any equipment - parachutes, airplanes, parts, mods, accessories, or anything else - controls the use of that product first and foremost. Regardless of what may be allowed otherwise, if the manufacturer of any given product restricts the use of that product, that restriction must be adhered to under the FAR's.

We are not on the top of the FAR food chain. Use and restrictions begin with the manufacturer, not with us or USPA's rulebook.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 10, 2012, 8:10 PM
Post #72 of 90 (1185 views)
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Re: [sacex250] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

They don't make three-wheelers in general anymore because of lawsuits...

In reply to:

Oh that's right, ...because people were putting untrained, unqualified riders on them and the kids were making bad decisions...turning them too sharply at speeds not recommended and getting hurt.

Makes perfect sense...pull them from the market and make a more idiot proof product! Cool

Is that what you're suggesting the parachute manufactures do?


sacex250

Mar 10, 2012, 8:26 PM
Post #73 of 90 (1182 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They don't make three-wheelers in general anymore because of lawsuits...

In reply to:

Oh that's right, ...because people were putting untrained, unqualified riders on them and the kids were making bad decisions...turning them too sharply at speeds not recommended and getting hurt.

Makes perfect sense...pull them from the market and make a more idiot proof product! Cool

Is that what you're suggesting the parachute manufactures do?

You mean like three-ring releases? RSLs? Skyhook? AADs? Audibles? Dual parachute containers?


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 10, 2012, 8:31 PM
Post #74 of 90 (1180 views)
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Re: [sacex250] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
They don't make three-wheelers in general anymore because of lawsuits...

In reply to:

Oh that's right, ...because people were putting untrained, unqualified riders on them and the kids were making bad decisions...turning them too sharply at speeds not recommended and getting hurt.

Makes perfect sense...pull them from the market and make a more idiot proof product! Cool

Is that what you're suggesting the parachute manufactures do?

You mean like three-ring releases? RSLs? Skyhook? AADs? Audibles? Dual parachute containers?


LaughLaughLaugh Woosh


sacex250

Mar 10, 2012, 8:35 PM
Post #75 of 90 (1184 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] New BSR Affects Everyone [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The BSR's do not empower the manufacturers.

Yes, they do! Why does there need to be a BSR? Oh yeah, because the manufacturers cannot specify age limits on their gear through the FAA. So, by using the USPA as a choke-point then they have control over what the GM dropzones do, and, ultimately, what members using the dropzones do.


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