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"Coach" pulls for a student!

 

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popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 23, 2012, 8:37 PM
Post #76 of 111 (4224 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I suspect that if we went over a bunch of specific scenarios, we'd likely overlap a lot more on what would entail consideration for catching or pulling for that student than our posts would imply.
I think you are absolutely right.
Smile


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 29, 2013, 7:30 AM
Post #77 of 111 (4075 views)
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Re: [skyrider] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My first question is how did this person clear AFF student status?, they can;t even fly stable on exit yet! (( KUDOS TO YOU FOR BEING THE FIRST TO POINT THIS OUT! ))

a brian locker like this one will transition to throw out, and be holding the pilot chute all the way to earth!

With safety day coming up, and with the increase in un-current jumpers getting "refreshers," with the start of the new season, this thread raisis an interesting point about the "chain of events" way of thinking.

Coach's are there to observe. Period.
Why was this student cleared by their AFFI? Back up in this chain of events to the source of the issue rather than engage in hypothetical issues and changing the ratings system.

If someone is that out of date then make some Cat A jumps with AFFI's.

Perehaps in this case the student was cleared for solo's way too early, I don't hear his AFFI's chiming in on this??? Perhaps the solo number should be moved to 30, or some number higher? How many days inbetween this jumpers Cat C and this... Well was this a CAT jump??? I didn'd see any turn and track, amongs other issues???

Deisel makes a valid point if this student is jumping with only a Coach and the results could have been less than optimum. But the IRM is clear on this, "Cleared...by an USPA Instructor...," Was this student cleared? The big issue here is at what point does the AFFI Instructor clear the student? Every argument after the student is cleared for self supervision, is an exercise in futility as far as Coach's are concerened.

Unless of course your trying to increase the job security and work load for AFFi"s ? Which might not be that bad of an idea?

Students are thrown to the wolves so to speak with making jumps with others right before they get their A lic., what with having to find individuals to jump with. Is the OP suggesting that students untill the A lic jump with AFFI's???

I humbly suggest that rather than turning Coach's into AFFI's we look at the students and make a more controlled assesment of their abilities and currency. As far as recurency jumps perhaps the individual returning should/could look at jumping with an
AFFI' team/indivdual vrs a Coach???

The bottom line is at some point students and others get cleared, after they get cleared,....????
cross your fingers....

Just two cents for today.
C


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jan 29, 2013, 8:08 AM)


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jan 29, 2013, 10:15 AM
Post #78 of 111 (3998 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm just gonna throw this out there:

I was running the BirdMan booth one year at the WFFC teaching FFC's and Organizing. Bill Von Novak was there as well organizing belly groups. On one of those loads he had an "experienced/ Licensed" jumper in his group who got on his back and was spinning out of control almost immediately after exit. He had to fly down, do a spin stop, and roll this person over. Was he supposed to simply let the guy ride his CYPRES in on his back? I don't think so. I guess that doesn't apply to this thread, though, seeing as how Bill is an AFFI. Still, If I were in that same situation and did not have a rating I would have still done everything I could to help that guy out.

Oddly, I had nearly the exact same thing occur on a jump I organized at my home DZ. I put together a one-point 16-ish-way skydive for a guy's 1000th jump. He blew the exit, got on his back, and was spinning out of control until I flew down, spin-stopped him, and flipped him over. I'm an AFFI, but I was far from the only guy racing down there to fix this problem; I was just the first one there.

NEVER assume that just because someone is off of AFF that they are immune from such things happening, even with 1000 jumps.

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, PFC/E, S&TA


jshiloh

Jan 29, 2013, 8:00 PM
Post #79 of 111 (3933 views)
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Re: [skyrider] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My first question is how did this person clear AFF student status?, they can;t even fly stable on exit yet!

Sadly, there are DZs out there that will pass anybody who jumps. They take the attitude that that 1 jump = 1 level of AFF, regardless of whether or not the student demonstrates the necessary skills. They think that the skills can always be worked on after the AFF through additional instruction. Nine times out of ten, they do this because their more interested in getting the traditional case of beer upon AFF completion. The rest of the time they "justify" it by saying they don't want to discourage the student by not passing them.

Not saying that's what happened with this particular student. Just saying it's a possibility & something that needs to be fixed.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 30, 2013, 1:02 PM
Post #80 of 111 (3874 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you, Chuck.

It's always surprising to hear someone say they wouldn't try to help.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 30, 2013, 1:05 PM
Post #81 of 111 (3892 views)
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Re: [jshiloh] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sadly, there are DZs out there that will ....
MadMadMad
Major pet peeve:
AFFIs who don't do, or won't do, the job well...the entire job.

Sometimes it's because they can't. They get the rating from the candy man.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 30, 2013, 1:06 PM)


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 30, 2013, 2:36 PM
Post #82 of 111 (3852 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In all fairness to this "student," they actually are Unsure somewhat better than stable. I also noticed a backflip, (one) and the up/down drill, or the start coast stop except for no "Palming," perhaps that wasen't their intent to actually dock, but the pulling sequence is a little f/u. I can't quite put my finger on it but something is amis here take a real hard look, I might be just under the influence of a few at the moment, but this students left hand is compensating very well??? More than a few of us sitting around using this open computer, noticed this non-typical student behavior???
C
M
and
chuck.


azureriders  (D 28830)

Mar 25, 2013, 8:13 PM
Post #83 of 111 (3506 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

My apologies for posting without reading the entire thread, but to the OP.

This should be a moot question. A coach should be nowhere near a student at the time he is pulling. Coach bottom end should have the coach parked (or back sliding) while observing the students break off without being reminded. If the student still has not left after one reminder then the coach leaves, achieves separation, and pulls no lower than 3500'.

In any of these events, baring a student suddenly pulling in place and prematurely, the coach should be well away from the student before pull time. This promotes several safety aspects but as a side advantage it also removes the overwhelming desire of a coach to help a student at pull time, as he is not in position to do so.

This bottom end sequence works great and is not something that needs to be changed. I am not saying that as an AFF-I I have not on occasion lurked a coach students pull, however on all normal circumstances I approach a coach jump bottom end as any other coach should. As such if the student has trouble at pull time, even though I have training to help, I am nowhere near him to do so. Yet I am teaching him what is to be expected after the A, for if I am not evaluating his ability to break off and achieve separating then I AM NOT preparing him for the things that I should be. After all, he has been cleared by an instructor to handle the situations before be passed to the coaches in the first place.

It has been argued before that a coach should not have to just stand by and give the pull signal when he should be helping. I agree that he should not; instead he should be going the other way and pulling at a safe distance. History has proven that this practice will normally cause the student to check his altitude as soon as he sees you leaving, and if not the sight of the coach pulling should get his attention. This fixes most all student bottom end issues, even if not the hard to find handle in this question, but again, the student is qualified to handle this by this time, or should be.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:36 PM
Post #84 of 111 (3490 views)
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Re: [azureriders] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Much of what you said was covered already, yes.
Much of what you and others are operating on is ideal-world where student sees your departure and acts appropriately.

The OP presented us with a not-so-ideal situation. I did notice that you said you have "lurked" the deployment. The OP asks what you, the Coach, would do to help, if anything.

Reading your post, it appears that you have done nothing, is that correct?

Just FYI...we've had a 2-fatality jump here in Florida and although the circumstances are not solidly known, prominent conjecture relates to the topic of this thread....Instructor/student jump.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Mar 25, 2013, 10:46 PM)


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:17 AM
Post #85 of 111 (3404 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

I see this has happened to others beside me. On several AFF jumps I have had the instructor place my hand on the BOC as I had difficulty finding it. Always deployed it myself but did have trouble finding it.

Strange no worries in practice but in the air at pull time I fumbled a bit.

Even stranger never had trouble finding the golf ball to deploy a tandem rig on many ocassions (keep that quiet) but struggled with BOC.

The BOC is a good invention with one problem. You cannot actually see it. That is a bit unnerving for students. I was taught on the old rounds to look for ripcard before pulling.

Obviously the BOC is here to stay. Alot more practice on first jump courses with a real rig would have to help.


FlyBear

Mar 26, 2013, 12:36 PM
Post #86 of 111 (3300 views)
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Re: [gregpso] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

May I ask a dumb question? Angelic

AFFI = AFF Instructor, right? Where exactly is the difference between Instructor and coach?

I always translated coach as Instructor/trainer and thought it had the same meaning.

Would be great if someone could help me with that. Blush Cause somehow, this doesn't let me understand the context of some comments.

Thanks in advance. Smile


Southern_Man  (C License)

Mar 26, 2013, 1:39 PM
Post #87 of 111 (3276 views)
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Re: [FlyBear] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In the USPA an AFF instructor is a higher rating and has higher training requirements. He (or she) needs to have at least 6 hours of freefall time and a C license to qualify. Skills that an instructor must display include helping students establish and maintain stability through rollovers and spin stops and pulling for a student. Instructors are with the student during the first 7 or 8 jumps (about, w/ no repeats) until the student has demonstrated consistent ability to maintain altitude awareness and pull for himself, among other tasks.

A coach is a much more introductory instructional rating available to skydivers with as few as 100 jumps and a B license. They assist "advanced" students with some of the basic skills of formation skydiving such as tracking, swooping and docking, adjusting fall rate, etc. These are students who have already demonstrated pulling for themselves, altitude awareness, ability to regain stability, etc. This is from about dive 8 to dive 25.

An instructor can perform the duties of the coach (help on later dives with more advanced students) but a coach may not perform the duties of an instructor. Coaches are not to pull for students.

That is the basic thrust of the differences but I am not a coach or instructor so I may have missed a detail or two.


FlyBear

Mar 26, 2013, 2:47 PM
Post #88 of 111 (3255 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you VERY much!!!

That helped a lot!


azureriders  (D 28830)

Mar 27, 2013, 1:08 PM
Post #89 of 111 (3179 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry for the long post

In reply to:
The OP presented us with a not-so-ideal situation. I did notice that you said you have "lurked" the deployment. The OP asks what you, the Coach, would do to help, if anything.

I do strongly agree that this is a not-so-ideal situation.

Yes I have lurked deployments on coach jumps, but only as an AFF-I rating holder. IMO, a coach only should never do this. So to answer your question "what you, the Coach, would do to help, if anything." I, the Coach, would be long gone by the time my student had trouble finding a handle.

Through my experience, which is not as much as many here, this proper coach jump bottom end has proven to work very well. Conversely, I have seen the coach sticking around cause bad results including a low student pull / two out (AAD fire) of the coach.

I should add that I only lurk coach jump deployments with reason. Without reason I am gone just like any other coach. Again IMO a student at this level is ready for that and perhaps even needs to see it when it is just he and his coach, which will allow him to pull in place and be properly debriefed on what happened.

In reply to:
Reading your post, it appears that you have done nothing, is that correct?

As a Coach, you are correct as I would not be close enough to do anything. As an AFF-I with reason to lurk yes I have stepped in to help. (Digging in my log book now for the details.)

We had a guy with 34 jumps, A license, hadn't jumped in 62 days, never been to our DZ, show up one morning and want to make a jump. He is now an un-current license holder who needs a jump supervised by an instructional rating holder which would include someone with only a coach rating. Manifest rightfully pairs him with one of our coaches. (This may not be an exact match to the OP's situation but I feel relevant none the less)

After working with the guy for a while the coach was not feeling warm and fuzzy and requested that an Instructor take the jump. During practice pulls in the air I observed the guy grabbing his hip ring (not his hacky) and placing his counter hand flat on top of his head. This is not what he demonstrated on the ground. Signaling for more practice pulls only showed me more of the same. Attempting to dock and assist with practice pulls proved fruitless as this was a former static line student and had never experienced such. Finally I decided to move on with the rest of the dive flow, but now have "Reason" to be there at pull time.

At pull time, after much effort on my part and fighting on his part to get him on the hacky, I pulled for him.

We discuss this jump in every coach course that I teach. The main lesson being how the original coach (baring any AAD or moving on to reserve discussion) may have very well saved this guys life by knowing when to request Instructor input.

so in closing my opinion:
-If an AFF-I is observing problems at pull time then he/she should do what they can to help, regardless of student level, but not regardless of other factors such as altitude, or student atempt to pull reserve.
-A coach should follow procedure and therefore not be in place to 'help'
-A student should be properly trained to find his hacky, and handle any other deployment related problems, before being cleared for self supervision and coach jumps.

Admittedly there are a lot of 'shoulds' in my above statements. IMO the current system, baring the occasional 'shit happens' situation, handles these well.

My biggest reason for posting to this thread in the first place was in reply to the OP
In reply to:
Let's discuss the proper role of coaches here, and the potential for making some much needed changes to the rating.

Don't get me wrong, I have my own ideas about coach rating improvement, but I would argue that there is not a need for as great or as many changes as most seem to insist exist.

At 300 jumps, at a DZ with no coaches or official coaching program, I was asked by the DZO to help with some coaching. Under his tutelage and a brand new coach rating I set out to do just that. At first I thought I saw holes all in this program and there were so many things I disagreed with. Now after 500+ coach jumps, 1500+ AFF jumps, a C/E rating and training 50+ coaches I feel a little different.

I think the biggest point that is overlooked is that all Coaches are to be under the supervision of Instructors. I feel that most of the griping about coaches is done by Instructors, and furthermore by Instructors who are not doing their part to properly supervise the coaches in the first place. This is in NO WAY pointed at anyone in particular. I offer this more as a food for thought for instructors, that before we complain that the system is not working, we make sure we are doing OUR part in that system.

Although I feel strongly about this, I do enjoy the academic discussion Sly


azureriders  (D 28830)

Mar 27, 2013, 1:14 PM
Post #90 of 111 (3174 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Southern_Man

A most excellent explanation of Instrutor vs Coach seeing that you hold neither rating.Wink

I would like to add one point to your Coach description:

Coaches are working under the constant supervision of an Instructor. Every Coach jump or Coach taught FJC is to have an Instructor in charge.

and one to the Instructor description:

Instructors are responsible for assureing that all Coaching under their supervision is being handled properly.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 27, 2013, 11:35 PM
Post #91 of 111 (3093 views)
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Re: [azureriders] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for you well-written reply.

"so in closing my opinion:
-If an AFF-I is observing problems at pull time then he/she should do what they can to help, regardless of student level, but not regardless of other factors such as altitude, or student attempt to pull reserve.
-A coach should follow procedure and therefore not be in place to 'help'
-A student should be properly trained to find his hacky, and handle any other deployment related problems, before being cleared for self supervision and coach jumps. "

..sums up everything nicely.

One of the reasons I brought up the AFFI doing Coach work was to highlight the differences in training...one having the skills to assist and the other not having such skills.

I was disappointed in the posts that said, in effect, "AFFI or no, do the Coach bottom-end sequence job."

For those guys, I'll repeat:
It's a sorry sight to see somebody with the opportunity and skills to save somebody's ass stand on 'procedure' and refuse to do so.


Ron

Apr 1, 2013, 11:53 AM
Post #92 of 111 (2996 views)
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Re: [FlyBear] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
AFFI = AFF Instructor, right? Where exactly is the difference between Instructor and coach?

You have already gotten a well worded reply. The short version is:

Instructor: Teaches life saving stuff and has been taught and tested on his ability to physically manhandle the student to get him stable or open and save his life.

Coach: Teaches non life saving skills to improve performance. Has to work under the supervision of an instructor.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 1, 2013, 1:48 PM
Post #93 of 111 (2961 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
AFFI = AFF Instructor, right? Where exactly is the difference between Instructor and coach?

You have already gotten a well worded reply. The short version is:

Instructor: Teaches life saving stuff and has been taught and tested on his ability to physically manhandle the student to get him stable or open and save his life.

Coach: Teaches non life saving skills to improve performance. Has to work under the supervision of an instructor.

Where does the book knowledge come into play here?


Ron

Apr 1, 2013, 3:34 PM
Post #94 of 111 (2947 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote:
Where does the book knowledge come into play here?

"You have already gotten a well worded reply. The short version is:"


(This post was edited by Ron on Apr 1, 2013, 3:35 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 2, 2013, 7:06 PM
Post #95 of 111 (2879 views)
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Re: [Ron] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Quote:
Where does the book knowledge come into play here?

"You have already gotten a well worded reply. The short version is:"

It appeared to me that you were focusing only on the air skills. Maybe I was wrong?


BigMark  (D 17505)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:36 AM
Post #96 of 111 (2709 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

A lot of adjustable lateral rigs out there don't have stows for the excess webbing, it's just flapping out there in the breeze right next the PC. How does the person taking care of the rigs overlook something so easy to fix and so dangerous?


johnkrup

Oct 7, 2013, 10:16 PM
Post #97 of 111 (2277 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

I watched the video and did not see the student reach for his reserve at all. He appeared to be still fumbling around with his BOC. I believe he was glad his coach pulled for him he may have saved his life if his AAD did not work properly


labrys  (D 29848)

Oct 9, 2013, 9:10 PM
Post #98 of 111 (1982 views)
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Re: [johnkrup] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I watched the video and did not see the student reach for his reserve at all.

He reached for his reserve just about the same time his coach deployed him


(This post was edited by labrys on Oct 9, 2013, 9:12 PM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Oct 10, 2013, 8:09 AM
Post #99 of 111 (1920 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

popsjumper wrote:
For those guys, I'll repeat:
It's a sorry sight to see somebody with the opportunity and skills to save somebody's ass stand on 'procedure' and refuse to do so.

Pissing on someone with good intentions with a different take than you is not classy. That statement is equivalent to:

It's a sorry sight to see an instructor deviate from the coaching plan, confuse his student, and put both himself and the student in danger - just so he can feel like a hero.

.
.
.
.
there's a HUGE difference between:

Pops viewpoint - "It's getting low. Screw him/her, I'm pulling now. He should do better and it's not MY JOB to pull for him."

vs

More likely alternate "It's getting low, we agreed that in this scenario I'd pull right in front of him if he doesn't see the hand signal. I don't want to confuse him by flying closer and making him think he has more time. Better give a VERY clear signal by pulling now before it's too late for him."


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Oct 10, 2013, 8:41 AM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 6, 2013, 7:37 PM
Post #100 of 111 (826 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a student loose altitude awareness this summer. I dumped out in front of him and he got the message. Plan the dive, dive the plan. Smile


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