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"Coach" pulls for a student!

 

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airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 23, 2012, 6:37 AM
Post #51 of 111 (3540 views)
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Re: [stratostar] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

modernizing into the 21st century of student operations.

In reply to:

Crazy

Roger Nelson was doing that more than 25 years ago, the USPA was hesitant and slow coming around until he showed plenty of numbers with no problems and a proved faster student progression/transition to free-fall.

I remember plenty of DZ's saying they would never do anything so 'unsafe', after seeing it was actually as safe or more-so, they switched pretty quick.

I guess that memo didn't get around to 'everyone' Wink


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 23, 2012, 6:42 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

"Why spring loaded main pilot chutes for students?"

In reply to:
So my questions stands...WHY?

[Edit: Twardo has been around so may understand the history already, even if answering this simple question in general made me launch into all the history below.]

While I don't know why that particular DZ (where ever it is) made its choices, I thought that in the US AFF program, for many many years it was mandatory to have a spring loaded pilot chute. (1980s and well into the 90s?)

For the Canadian PFF program, we accepted throw outs from the start, something which to some at the time seemed a little more dangerous and casual than the US system but acceptable in requiring less specialized gear.

The idea of having spring loaded PC's was that pulling a ripcord was simple, and it was safer in any attitude.

Throw out PC's weren't exactly brand new when AFF really got going, but I bet the whole process of groping down on your hip (no BOC then), moving your arm a certain way, and holding your hand a certain way (not to entangle with the bridle) was seen as pretty complex. Especially for a student who hadn't progressed slowly through a static line program.

And a spring loaded PC is the standard for deployment in any attitude if things go wrong, just like a reserve. (Even if it isn't perfect.) Great for students whose stability at pull time may not be great.

Using a spring loaded PC for AFF students was seen as taking an extra step to provide the safest possible gear for students!

In my 1991 ParaGear catalog for example, all the containers labelled as "Student" were double ripcord systems.

Yet NOW, people wonder what all the fuss was about. As the AFF program matured, I guess people figured out that it was possible to run a successful program with throw out pilot chutes for students, right from the start.

It had become such a standard of the US system to have spring loaded PC's that I get the impression that changing it was tough. In 2003 AggieDave wrote about Roger Nelson, who must have had a waiver to use throw-outs:

Quote:
When Roger Nelson did the research for the USPA to get a change to the BSRs to allow it, he presented documented video proof to the BOD of hundreds and hundreds of students over the course of a few years that had no different problems then what are incountered with a spring loaded PC.

I guess some DZ's kept going with the same philosophy to keep using spring loaded PC's. There's more than one acceptable way to learn to skydive after all. Yes there would be a change in procedures for a student going to different gear later on, but one can learn new things.

[edit:]
Looking some more into old posts, I see that in Australia and South Africa, it was mandatory to use spring loaded PC's for AFF through at least 2003. For a long time, globally, it seemed the "proper" way to do things. When did the US change??


(This post was edited by pchapman on Feb 23, 2012, 7:18 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 23, 2012, 9:43 AM
Post #53 of 111 (3512 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I used to disagree with a LOT of what you experienced guys thought and said - I still have my doubts about some things (like camera with less than 200 jumps), but its funny how experience makes you realize the wisdom of those you previously thought were just trying to hold you back.

The idea that experienced jumpers are trying to hold the new guys 'back' has come up before, and the question I always ask is why would I want to hold anyone back? What's in it for me?

Let's look at what's in it for me if jumpers aren't 'held back'. More action on the DZ. More loads flying, more skilled jumpers to jump with, more skilled canopy pilots to flock with and swoop with. More skilled jumpers to freefly and track with. More jumpers to come on after work and fly loads during the week. Bigger, faster planes to handle the increased business. More money for the DZ to buy the staff pizza and sandwiches. More cameras around to get my awesomeness on video. More rigs with small x-braced canopies for me to borrow if I need them, etc, etc, etc.

I have everything to gain when new jumpers stick with the sport, and develop themselves into 'experts'.

What do I have to gain by holding anyone back? An ego stroke? Mabye 5000 jumps ago, I was looking to puff my 400-jump chest out, and be a 'big man' comapred to a 100 jump wonder, but now? I think I'm past needing to prove myself to anyone, let alone a 'new guy'.

What else? Job security? Please, if anyone out there thinks they can steal my slot on the video staff out from under me, let them try. I've been at the same DZ, working for the same guy for over a decade. I show up on time, and deliver the product better then 99% of the time, and the product I deliver is consistantly 'better than average'. Do you really think I'm worried about a newbie stealing my gig?

I could go on, but the simple fact is that there's no upside for to hold anyone back, aside from trying to maintain their personal safety. Truth is, I would prefer to have more skilled, experienced jumpers around, it makes for a better, more fun, and safer DZ, but the only way you get there is by keeping people alive, healthy, and in the sport long enough to get to that level.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Feb 23, 2012, 10:19 AM
Post #54 of 111 (3502 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Well said.

Matt


Scrumpot  (D License)

Feb 23, 2012, 10:15 PM
Post #55 of 111 (3431 views)
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Re: [cbrown1311] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This would leave the student with no video at all, which, I think we all can agree, is a very important part of the dive debrief.

You think wrong then. I do not agree. I doubt very much that we all do as well (either). Don't know whatever gave you the notion that video of AFF jumps, is suchan absolute critical, crucial, absolutely "must-have". In fact, I'd be willing to bet that probably less than 30% of all AFF jumps worldwide have any video at all. And I'm being generous with that estimation.

What makes you think AFF video is so absolutely critical that:
Quote:
I think we all can agree, is a very important part of the dive debrief.

Nope. Not at all. It is just another tool, that in SOME instances may be nice to have - if it is feasible and desired. ...Critical? ...Problem if it is not available / not being used? ...Very important even? - Nope. Not at all.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Feb 23, 2012, 10:26 PM
Post #56 of 111 (3429 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So heres my question; lets imagine that this is an actual coach, and not an AFFI. Who thinks that this would have been an appropriate response for a coach in this type of situation? Why or why not?

Additional previous discussion reading material on the topic, as well here


demoknite  (D License)

Feb 26, 2012, 8:35 AM
Post #57 of 111 (3339 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think that some branch or the military trains their freefall jumpers this way. Full altitude jumps with no instructor present (of course, this is after static line training, and I'm sure weeks of ground school).

The Air Force Academy has a jump program with no instructor present. However, its from 5,000 ft AGL and with several days of ground training. So its a clear the aircraft and pull. These cadets are also considered some of the best and brightest our nation has to offer and this combined with the training has resulted in very few incidents. These cadets are not qualified to do any jumps for any real world mission scenario.

The military free fall school does one solid week of ground training with tunnel training included. You jump with an instructor who doesnt neccesarily harness hold you but will do so if needed based on what he has gathered from your disposition during ground training and on the jump itself. Some jumpers have two instructors go out with them for various reasons. These students usually come from the special ops community and are, too, some of the strongest, smartest, and capable people in the military. The syllabus is more or less the same as what a USPA "A" license is except with night,equipment, and oxygen in various combinations. Graduates of this course would be able to jump into a real mission with some added training from their unit.


jtval  (D 26340)

Feb 26, 2012, 12:15 PM
Post #58 of 111 (3310 views)
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Re: [demoknite] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The Air Force Academy has a jump program with no instructor present. However, its from 5,000 ft AGL and with several days of ground training. So its a clear the aircraft and pull.
Almost, but not exactly. 4500ft exit- not 5000k. Ten second freefall- not clear and pull. They do exit and pull on their own.

Quote:
These cadets are not qualified to do any jumps for any real world mission scenario.
true


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 26, 2012, 10:15 PM
Post #59 of 111 (3240 views)
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Re: [demoknite] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think that some branch or the military trains their freefall jumpers this way. Full altitude jumps with no instructor present (of course, this is after static line training, and I'm sure weeks of ground school).

The Air Force Academy has a jump program with no instructor present. However, its from 5,000 ft AGL and with several days of ground training. So its a clear the aircraft and pull. These cadets are also considered some of the best and brightest our nation has to offer and this combined with the training has resulted in very few incidents. These cadets are not qualified to do any jumps for any real world mission scenario.

The military free fall school does one solid week of ground training with tunnel training included. You jump with an instructor who doesnt neccesarily harness hold you but will do so if needed based on what he has gathered from your disposition during ground training and on the jump itself. Some jumpers have two instructors go out with them for various reasons. These students usually come from the special ops community and are, too, some of the strongest, smartest, and capable people in the military. The syllabus is more or less the same as what a USPA "A" license is except with night,equipment, and oxygen in various combinations. Graduates of this course would be able to jump into a real mission with some added training from their unit.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6klvGVtw-HA Cool


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 27, 2012, 7:11 AM
Post #60 of 111 (3190 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post


Once again, proving the point... Never Give Up!!! Cool


aarco  (D 20876)

Mar 14, 2012, 11:39 AM
Post #61 of 111 (2990 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

If you hold an AFFI - -but are working as a coach- you should stick with the coach planning - system-
Jumping saddle and crossing the mind set over to a lesser skill plan -- or triping on boardering the energy of the dive with a pool time issue can and has taken people out of the sky-- this sounds more like a ground issue- or rushing the skill point-- AFF is AFF - once a student is in the coaching program--there they are --if you try dumping the guy out as he or she pulls the reserve-- that could be very bad -- stay ahead of the altitude -- caoch out the pull issue only if you have time - -But hard decks are hard decks--- pull time is pull time --and a student at that level- should be able to handle pull time-


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 14, 2012, 1:31 PM
Post #62 of 111 (2962 views)
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Re: [aarco] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, aarco.
On the one hand, I agree...perform the role you have taken on.

On the other hand, if you have the training and the skills to do more, IMO, you'd be the biggest asshole on the planet if you could have used them to save that guy from getting hurt...and didn't.

YMMV


skyrider  (D 14710)

Mar 15, 2012, 8:16 AM
Post #63 of 111 (2914 views)
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Re: [dragon2] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

My first question is how did this person clear AFF student status?, they can;t even fly stable on exit yet!

and who da hell is still using rip cords for mains?

a brian locker like this one will transition to throw out, and be holding the pilot chute all the way to earth!


GoHuskers  (C 41540)

Mar 15, 2012, 10:11 PM
Post #64 of 111 (2827 views)
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Re: [Rstanley0312] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think before I tracked away and dumped I would point at them and then to the reserve with altitude on my side... then I would move to tacking off and pulling..... Scary situation.

Great answer. If I ever become a coach that is exactly what I would do.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 16, 2012, 5:13 AM
Post #65 of 111 (2813 views)
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Re: [aarco] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
--if you try dumping the guy out as he or she pulls the reserve-- that could be very bad --

How is that different for an AFFI on a coach dive or an AFF dive? The student is trained for the same pull priorities and EPs, and the chace that they will go for the reserve exists in both scenarios.

The difference is in the instructor. As a coach, not trained to pull for anyone and having no experience being docked on (or even close) to anyone at pull time, mistakes can (and will) be made. Dumping out a main as the student pulls the reserve is one of them.

An AFFI on the other hand, is trained to dump out students and be tight at pull time. More importantly, they're trained and accustomed to watching the student's actions carefully. An an experienced AFF I, you can go for the student's PC while keep an eye on their hands. If they're out in the 'boxman', they're not going for the handle. If the hands 'disappear' under the jumper, they might very well be going for the handle.

I use that trick on tandem/student videos too. If you can see everyones hands, there's a good chance that a parachute is not about to open. If an instructor or students hand(s) disappear, there's a chance they're in there pulling a handle, so act as if they are pulling a handle and be ready for a deployment.


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 16, 2012, 5:08 PM
Post #66 of 111 (2761 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
An AFFI on the other hand, is trained to dump out students and be tight at pull time. More importantly, they're trained and accustomed to watching the student's actions carefully. An an experienced AFF I, you can go for the student's PC while keep an eye on their hands. If they're out in the 'boxman', they're not going for the handle. If the hands 'disappear' under the jumper, they might very well be going for the handle.

I use that trick on tandem/student videos too. If you can see everyones hands, there's a good chance that a parachute is not about to open. If an instructor or students hand(s) disappear, there's a chance they're in there pulling a handle, so act as if they are pulling a handle and be ready for a deployment.

I use that trick as well, tandem videos to AFF students.


Lucky...  (F 1)

Mar 17, 2012, 8:35 AM
Post #67 of 111 (2719 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Nevermid that, did no one notice the student's left shoe was untied? That's a travesty!


BobMoore  (D 13136)

Mar 17, 2012, 11:04 AM
Post #68 of 111 (2712 views)
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Re: [Lucky...] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nevermid that, did no one notice the student's left shoe was untied? That's a travesty!

What brand was the shoe? What color were the shoe laces? Did the sole have tread or was it smooth? Was it the proper size for his feet?


aarco  (D 20876)

Mar 19, 2012, 11:41 AM
Post #69 of 111 (2639 views)
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Re: [BobMoore] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

A harness hold exit and dive flow is usualy a bit different then a coach jump-- flying twards a student as you see them reaching for the reserve is a movement - set by the instuctor) taking - or re-taking a grip on the harness at pull time is one thing-- seeing or riding threw the opening is another thing -- the goal is to not let the student run away with two parachute on his suposide first attemt at pulling-- A coach is a gide on -- I have drawn back on a student when their skill fell out and pulled for them before--- But I stopped allowing things like that to happen a few years back- Its better to put in the time on the ground -- and the DZO gets extra money if they are held with the AFF instructor- you should be building in the coach jump-- not searching for a limb - like comfort- awarness- mental strength- wear is my instructor he can do this skydive for me -- oh no Im low -- wait - its ok thats the reserve-- Ill be fine - oh no -- why are there two canopies out -- oh great -- they hate each other-- now I remember try and fly both canopies-if not cut away-- wear did that main come from anyway -- Remember the student mind set-- we would like to see everyone pull perfectly-


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 21, 2012, 1:00 PM
Post #70 of 111 (2537 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sorry, aarco.
On the one hand, I agree...perform the role you have taken on.

On the other hand, if you have the training and the skills to do more, IMO, you'd be the biggest asshole on the planet if you could have used them to save that guy from getting hurt...and didn't.

YMMV

If it's a "Coach" jump, then your agreement is to turn and track, and even dump - at the agreed hard deck - so the student sees that. Honestly, I think that's the best way to save that guy from getting hurt. (I could come up with exceptions to that rule, but that's my baseline)

Dive the plan. If the Coach (even AFF rated) deviates from that plan (i.e., let the dive get low enough that they feel they need to 'save' the student rather than show a turn and dump at the planned altitude) - then the Coach screwed up.

The asshole is usually the guy that changed the plan.

YMMV


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Mar 21, 2012, 1:01 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 22, 2012, 2:15 AM
Post #71 of 111 (2505 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If it's a "Coach" jump, then your agreement is to turn and track, and even dump - at the agreed hard deck - so the student sees that.
That's what is taught in the Coach Course for Cat G jumps, yes. Surely you realize there is more to Coaching than just Cat G and more involved than what is taught in the course, right?

In reply to:
(I could come up with exceptions to that rule,....)
Which was the point of my post.
If you have the training and the skills, use it if needed....don't be the biggest asshole on the planet.

A newly-minted Coach doesn't have those skills. An AFFI might.
YMMV


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Mar 22, 2012, 2:25 AM)


airbigdaddy  (D 21277)

Mar 22, 2012, 7:10 AM
Post #72 of 111 (2477 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

While I certainly agree that video is FAR from absolutely necessary on an AFF jump, and any AFF instructor worth a shit should be able to give an accurate and descriptive enough debrief from memory to be useful to the student, I don't agree that an AFF instructor should never wear a camera. I've worn a camera (not a GoPro, rather a very low-profile and small camera on the left side of my helmet that is built into my helmet) on roughly the last 700 of my 1,500 AFF jumps.

AFTER I give a student the normal debrief without the video, we review it together, and then I always give him or her a free copy to take home as well. I've gotten quite a few verbal thanks and e-mails saying just how helpful this was on top of the standard debrief.

So, not at all necessary, and any student or instructor who says that learning can't take place without video is, in my opinion, misled. But, assuming the camera setup is virtually snag-proof (obviously NOTHING is completely snag-proof) and the instructor has enough AFF jumps under his or her belt before adding a camera to the equation, I think it's extremely helpful.

And before anyone can answer back with a "But the student might be distracted" line, while that might be possible on some coach dives, I've never once had a student in an early category pause during the skydive to look over at the camera while I have my harness-hold to say hello to it. And as for whether or not it's a distraction to me, I'm pretty sure it's not. I've worn camera on about 4,000 jumps total, and while I do worry about getting a good shot while filming OUTSIDE video on jumps where I'm not acting as an instructor, I really do just turn the camera on and forget about it while flying inside as an instructor.

(And, no, I don't jump with my ring sight or still camera when working inside as an instructor, so those snag-friendly elements are not present.)

Just food for thought. You don't HAVE to have video, but if it can be included safely and by a qualified instructor, it sure is a nice perk for the student. Yes, it would be nice if they could all afford outside video on every jump since it's such a great training aid, but that just isn't feasible for most. Plus, though outside video gives a much better angle, it tends to be a distraction for some students, especially if the camera flyer is not head's up enough to get out of the student's face if the student isn't going through the dive flow according to plan.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 22, 2012, 7:35 AM
Post #73 of 111 (2470 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If it's a "Coach" jump, then your agreement is to turn and track, and even dump - at the agreed hard deck - so the student sees that.
That's what is taught in the Coach Course for Cat G jumps, yes. Surely you realize there is more to Coaching than just Cat G and more involved than what is taught in the course, right?

It's not a Cat G thing - I'd say that specific plan (turn and track as a means to show the unattentive student that the dive is over) applies to any coach jump - not just Cat G

student is knocked unconscious - sure, catch him and pull for him - coach or AFFI at that point - I agree about special cases, but that goes for any dive, IMO. Even fun jumps with newbies, I'll sometimes try to find out who has an AAD and who doesn't - just in case (yes, call me obsessive compulsive, or a good planner, either way Laugh)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 22, 2012, 6:25 PM
Post #74 of 111 (2417 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd say that specific plan (turn and track as a means to show the unattentive student that the dive is over) applies to any coach jump - not just Cat
OK. We can agree to disagree.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 23, 2012, 7:34 AM
Post #75 of 111 (2396 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'd say that specific plan (turn and track as a means to show the unattentive student that the dive is over) applies to any coach jump - not just Cat
OK. We can agree to disagree.

as always. (people can't do that over in speaker's corner - this is refreshing)

I suspect that if we went over a bunch of specific scenarios, we'd likely overlap a lot more on what would entail consideration for catching or pulling for that student than our posts would imply.


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