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SimonBones  (D 28573)

Mar 6, 2012, 8:53 PM
Post #26 of 43 (1975 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1. Sit to Head backflip and flock than track
2. Sit to Head front flip and flock than track.

Those two seems most easiest and logical.

turn 180 feet first than what??? do the twisty thing and go forward on your head?? than sounds way more chaotic, and most will find feet first very ineffective and transition to head while in that awkward forward motion will be difficult.

A lot of people now days are proficient with backflip or front flip to head from sit, thanks to tunnel.

So by your thought, we isolate the availability of head up bigways to only those who are rockstars on their heads because of the assumption that it's simply not possible people out there are that good on their feet. I disagree.

I think those two options are easiest and most logical only if you're great on your head but suck hardcore on your feet. Except not everybody out there sucks on their feet.

So yeah, turn 180 and then either front loop to head first belly down, or cartwheel to head first belly up. I don't think it's more "chaotic" at all, in fact I don't even think it's difficult and do these transitions regularly to break off from sit slots. I challenge you to spend a weekend practicing these things instead of nay saying.

I think the mentality you're presenting is that it is not possible to do anything and everything that anyone can do on their heads while on your feet, I simply reject that idea. I would agree in my experience that it is certainly more difficult to pursue that direction, but I wouldn't dismiss it. It simply requires a higher skill.

There was a time when belly flyers looked at head down flyers and warned about it being unsafe, uncontrollable, and laughed at the idea of conducting safe breakoffs while tracking on your back. The evolution of the sport has obviously laid those concerns to rest. There is a time right here and right now, where folks talk about feet first break offs as too difficult, ineffective, and too "awkward", but I have seen evidence out there in the sky from great skydivers that says otherwise. Apparently doing so is neither awkward nor ineffective for some at all.

The effectiveness and cleanliness of your transitions are not limited by an absolute physical law, but limited on how much you've practiced them. Naturally most bigwat folk have spent more time practicing head down formation break off procedures and so HD flock/track feels more natural amongst the head down bigway crowd.

I agree the development of wind tunnels across the world has allowed more people to become proficient at flip transitions to their heads, but again, if we restrict the new frontier of head up bigways to the idea that only highly experienced head down flyers can participate because *they're the only ones* who can possibly break off safely, we essentially cop out on the idea of pioneering new techniques of flight by falling back on the old school. I reject that.

I think it's awesome that "most will find feet first very ineffective and transition to head while in that awkward forward motion will be difficult", it just means that now we have a standard to separate the kids from the adults.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Mar 6, 2012, 9:27 PM
Post #27 of 43 (1971 views)
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Re: [SimonBones] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

i'm just throwing out my version of ideas out there, dude.
Not trying to argue anything.

But typically when the person is able to feet flock they tend to do better on their head.

If the skill aren't there, I'd say that the person is not going to be able to participate in a big way.

Just like head down big way requires people to do turn 180, go forward than flat out, big way sit might have to require people to be able to transition into head in place prior to breaking off.

All based off on your statement to turn 180 in sit and than feet flock forward first.

Why not than do 180 in a sit and do cartwheel and go forward??

Remember, we are on Dorkzone.com people say dumbass things and even when not trying to say dumbass things it may come across as a dumbass thing.

Words gets lost in translation. Not to piss you off or diss you anything.

I'm all for the event. 3 plane + sit jump will be sick.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on Mar 6, 2012, 9:29 PM)


SimonBones  (D 28573)

Mar 6, 2012, 10:31 PM
Post #28 of 43 (1962 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

Haha, no one's pissed off mate. Tone is tough to get through in type. I like the discussion.

I don't think it's fair to set a standard on what some people perceive to be "typical". I've met people who have struggled with head down flying for years but were ninja on their feet for thousands of jumps. In that case, should we turn them away form a head up bigway because they're not comfortable with a pressured head down transition in tight proximity to the formation? Even if we know full well that they could perform the break off just as clean if not even cleaner on their feet?

It sounds like you're of the opinion that in order to be very skilled on your feet, that you must also be already even more talented on your head. While I agree that for most bigway folks I've met that does seem to be the case, I don't think it can be made as a blanket statement. Some people just have a natural knack for doing shit on their feet and some sort of mental block with the upside down-ness.

And by all means I wouldn't tell anyone they can't head down it out if that's what they're better at doing when a record is on the line. I'm sure at that moment plenty of people nowadays would prefer it.

But I'm just not sure I agree that someone necessarily has to be great on their head in order to perform that well on their feet.

In the mean time while an official record is not on the line, I think it's a great opportunity for people out there to push themselves to plan more feet first flocking dives instead of the traditional sunset track. Spend a summer doing that and see how the feet first flocking skills develop out there. Spend a summer doing transitions from feet first flocks to head first tracks of different orientations, it will get a whole lot easier and less awkward.

I think in time with a training mentality like this, more people will let go of the security blanket of head down flying when it comes to head up bigways.

Honestly, in my personal opinion from experience, I think a lot of folks are scared of feet first flying. I think a lot of people feel they've proven themselves in the bigway community with their head down flying and are insecure about having to perform up to those standards on their feet. On your next bigway event try and get some folks to take sit slots, be last divers with you, and dive to the formation on your feet, see how many people step up to the plate.

As you can see from some events past:
http://vimeo.com/21361181
Most people would rather dive on their head and flip to feet anyway even when it's not a record, why?


piisfish

Mar 7, 2012, 3:52 AM
Post #29 of 43 (1957 views)
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Re: [SimonBones] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

If you guys need info on how to backlside, just look at me trying to stay vertical UnsureUnsureUnsure Laugh


hparrish  (D 25090)

Apr 12, 2012, 11:47 AM
Post #30 of 43 (1859 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

2. Sit to Head front flip and flock than track.

I think this is the cleanest and best option for most people, and prevents the most movement either backwards into the base or forward toward the stingers / camera flyers.

So is Cross Keys at the end of August to Official Place / Time?


hparrish  (D 25090)

Apr 12, 2012, 11:55 AM
Post #31 of 43 (1859 views)
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Re: [SimonBones] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

I think feet first flocking after a 180 rotation, isnt going to get us the separation we need for Big Ways, because a lot of people are going to suck at it.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 12, 2012, 7:56 PM
Post #32 of 43 (1826 views)
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Re: [hparrish] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
2. Sit to Head front flip and flock than track.

I think this is the cleanest and best option for most people, and prevents the most movement either backwards into the base or forward toward the stingers / camera flyers.

So is Cross Keys at the end of August to Official Place / Time?

Im obviously missing something here.

What's wrong with staged break off, and everyone just going from a sit rolling back and back tracking away??


hparrish  (D 25090)

Apr 13, 2012, 11:03 PM
Post #33 of 43 (1747 views)
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Re: [Squeak] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

You've gotta visually clear your airspace behind you, flock away first, then track. Transition to visually check for clear airspace behind you. Flock to maintiain verticle head level while simultaneously creating horizontal separation. Then when clear from other groups start the track for maximum horizontal separation.

All three steps are critical with big ways.


SimonBones  (D 28573)

May 8, 2012, 1:37 PM
Post #34 of 43 (1605 views)
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Re: HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry been behind. School finals been keeping me down. More news on the National Sitfly record in August at Crosskeys:

Brian Buckland and Leland Bendel are confirmed for shooting the historic event.

The first ever two plane shot all sitfly formation in the history of the world, and first ever official US National Sitfly formation record.

Fuck yeah.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

May 21, 2012, 10:09 AM
Post #35 of 43 (1416 views)
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HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

https://www.facebook.com/...p;type=1&theater

Nice job everyone.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

May 21, 2012, 6:53 PM
Post #36 of 43 (1379 views)
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Re: [dqpacker] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice job that I'm not allowed to see that content on facebook? Tongue

I was told that the final decision for the head up breakoff was a front flip to out facing HD and then standard HD track off? I don't get that (if it's true) why do we want to speed up the skydive on breakoff? Why did we dismiss a 360 in place to a standard sitfly breakoff? As you can see from my profile, I'm not the most experienced skydiver in the world these questions aren't meant to be rhetorical. Seems like we'd be limiting who could be on these jumps to those who can fly HD as well? I did one of these on the weekend in a group of 6 or 7 IIRC. Seems like a lot of movement when what you really want is a simple, stable and controlled exit.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

May 21, 2012, 7:40 PM
Post #37 of 43 (1375 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

13way HeadUp Feet First Texas State Record. 5way sit round base launched from an Otter. At Skydive Spaceland this past Saturday. Photo by Joseph Mire.

FEET FIRST REVOLUTION


(This post was edited by dqpacker on May 21, 2012, 7:44 PM)
Attachments: 556877_10100713855524897_29605190_51044330_867698598_n.jpg (42.6 KB)


danielcroft  (D 31103)

May 21, 2012, 8:19 PM
Post #38 of 43 (1366 views)
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Re: [dqpacker] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice. I heard they launched a 6 way base and had ninjas?


loudtom  (D 23115)

May 23, 2012, 3:07 PM
Post #39 of 43 (1279 views)
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Re: [kallend] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

 



"So it could include "knee flying"? I've seen video of Airspeed doing a 10-way sequential while knee flying.'

Me tooo...it was cool and would be considerably different than sit flying..imho.


SimonBones  (D 28573)

May 23, 2012, 5:05 PM
Post #40 of 43 (1266 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

During the warm ups we did some 6 way base launches, results were pretty inconsistent out of the side of an otter, so when it came time for record crunch time, we opted to stick with the 5 way sit base.

There is no final decision on break off, not sure where you heard this. On these record jumps there were maybe only two people who were front flipping to HD for break off. Roughly 4-5 people were turning 180 and tracking off feet first. The rest were just turning 180 in their sit, moving forward a little bit while clearing airspace above and forward, and bellying out to a track.

I'm not a big fan of the latter, but it hasn't really caused any problems yet. The video guy belly's out as soon as the first wave of folks turn their 180 to stay out of danger's way.

All in all things went pretty awesome. With practice camps and warm ups, people are getting pretty damn good at launching sit formations, diving/floating on their feet through the hill, and absorbing waves in the formation.

There's going to be some pretty cool sit stuff going on at Carolinafest and I'll be sure to get some more going at some of the other events I'm doing this year. Skydive Dallas is also starting to hold some camps of their own in the feet first arts. Glad to hear it, I always heard they suck on their feet up there. But I'm glad Texas is leading the feet first revolution. There are plans for a 20 way at Skydive Dallas later this year.

I attached a pic of one of our 5 way base launches. Enjoy Smile
Attachments: 462211_10100715000031297_29605190_51053620_1304538934_o.jpg (266 KB)


danielcroft  (D 31103)

May 23, 2012, 9:47 PM
Post #41 of 43 (1248 views)
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Re: [SimonBones] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Simon.

I was chatting with Rob from 'Crow and he mentioned that idea, not sure who exactly said that to him. What's your feeling on a 360 HU and then regular HU break off (back track away)? We've been working on 4 and 5 way HU exits, man they're hard to do!

Great work on the record guys, didn't mean to sound like I was down on it at all, just trying to get my head around some of the safety aspects.


likearock  (D 24640)

Jul 19, 2012, 4:11 AM
Post #42 of 43 (1018 views)
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Re: [SimonBones] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The breakoff logistics for doing bigways head up is going to be a tricky pickle. It will probably be the most determining factor as to who has sufficient skills to participate, since it starts putting lives at risk. We'll be faced with a pretty hairy choice. Do we simply require that anyone doing large head up formations be a bad ass head down flyer so we can ensure safe break offs? Do we mandate that everyone has to be able to flock feet first like a rockstar? Both?

In situations like this, I've always been in favor of the simplest solution that meets all the critical requirements. Here's my take on what those requirements are (and Simon, let me know if I've missed any):

- clear your airspace above, below, and around you.
- initiate forward movement away from the center of the formation in a way that does not result in changing the fall rate (so that everyone's relative levels can be maintained).
- gradually transform that forward motion into a flat track and create adequate distance between yourself and the others before deploying your canopy.

The current alternatives (front-flip to head down vs. feet first flock away) seem overly complicated and challenging enough to be prone to error - in a bigway, all it takes is for one person to screw it up and you can have a serious problem.

So why not consider the following simpler procedure which seems, on the face of it, to meet all the requirements above?

- Breakoff begins: Turn 180 degrees in the sit and while doing so, clear your airspace.
- Transition to the delta tracking position (belly down, head positioned lower than feet). The delta position, when angled correctly, will maintain the prevailing (freefly) fall rate and will also provide the initial forward motion away from the formation.
- Gradually decrease the delta angle till it becomes a flat track while adding periodic barrel rolls for extra safety.
- Having tracked away the agreed upon amount and cleared the airspace above and near you, wave off and deploy.

A number of my friends will be on the Crosskeys record attempts. It would be great if there could be agreement on a single breakoff strategy by then.

Thoughts?


likearock  (D 24640)

Aug 13, 2012, 4:44 AM
Post #43 of 43 (727 views)
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Re: [likearock] HUGE Freefly news [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So why not consider the following simpler procedure which seems, on the face of it, to meet all the requirements above?

- Breakoff begins: Turn 180 degrees in the sit and while doing so, clear your airspace.
- Transition to the delta tracking position (belly down, head positioned lower than feet). The delta position, when angled correctly, will maintain the prevailing (freefly) fall rate and will also provide the initial forward motion away from the formation.
- Gradually decrease the delta angle till it becomes a flat track while adding periodic barrel rolls for extra safety.
- Having tracked away the agreed upon amount and cleared the airspace above and near you, wave off and deploy.

A number of my friends will be on the Crosskeys record attempts. It would be great if there could be agreement on a single breakoff strategy by then.

Thoughts?

Here's something I realized during one of Francesco's angle flying camps at the Ranch: The difference between a delta tracking position and head down backwards motion is really just a few degrees of angle - they're basically the same body orientation. Once you understand that, you can see just how similar this "delta" breakoff strategy for head-up is to the widely accepted breakoff for head-down. Take a look:

Beginning
Head-down: Turn 180 degrees while clearing your airspace.
Head-up: Turn 180 degrees while clearing your airspace.

Middle
Head-down: Initiate movement away from the center of the formation by means of HD forward motion.
Head-up: Initiate movement away from the center of the formation by means of HD backwards motion.

End
Head-down: Gradually transform the HD orientation to a flat track to distance yourself from the formation.
Head-up: Gradually transform the HD orientation to a flat track to distance yourself from the formation.

BTW, congratulations to all on the new HD record!


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