Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
In what situations can you fall out of the harness?

 


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

Feb 8, 2012, 12:24 PM
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In what situations can you fall out of the harness? Can't Post

A newbie question...
I'm still new to the sport and one of the thing that still scares me is falling out of the harnesses. Its probably an irational fear, but I always hesitate in doing new things because of this fear of falling out of the harnesses (e.g: barrel rolls, flips, etc...).

In what situations can you fall out of the harnesses? How often does it happen? Would a belly-strap help like Bill Booth advised? The chest strap just seems so... primitive (irrational fear... Unsure)


Thanks for the info!
Cheers!


beowulf  (C License)

Feb 8, 2012, 12:51 PM
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Re: [ShcShc11] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

At least once a day and twice on sundays!

Just kidding!Tongue

While it's possible to fall out of your harness it doesn't happen very often. The only accounts that I have heard of were tandem students that the harnes wasn't properly fitted to.


missbrz  (B License)

Feb 8, 2012, 12:53 PM
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Re: [beowulf] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

or if you're in a wingsuit & dont put on your leg straps Crazy but I guess that doesnt count since he wasn't ever "in the harness"


dragon2  (D 101989)

Feb 8, 2012, 12:54 PM
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Re: [ShcShc11] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

AFAIK, you stand the "best" change of falling out of your harness unintentionally, if you open your canopy when in a sitting position.

The 2 tandem passengers that I know of that fell out of their harnesses, both had issues with muscle tone. Making them "fold in half" and backing out butt-first out of the harness through the gap between the leg straps and the lower back strap.

You can actually back out of your rig fairly easily on the ground, even with a custom fit harness.

This is why freeflyers have a bungee between their legstraps, to keep the legstraps together and in the right position when flying in the sitfly position. Especially a premature opening in a sitfly position can be dangerous, so taking care of your gear to avoid having a premature opening goes a really long way here.

As far as the cheststrap goes, as long as you close it correctly, it doesn't actually has to be tight to prevent you from falling out of the harness. In fact when bellyflying, provided the rig fits you reasonably well, you want the cheststrap fairly loose so you can ARCH.

Really, trust in the gear. Make sure you follow safety procedures (close the chest strap, don't freefly with non-freefly friendly gear, take care of your handles in the plane and in freefall) and you won't fall out of your harness.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 8, 2012, 12:59 PM
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It 'can' happen only if the harness isn't properly connected at all points or not fitted right, snugged up tight.

Chest strap not connected you 'could' go out the front, legstraps too loose and sit-flying and you 'could' go out the back through the 'hole', legstraps not connected and out the bottom as we've seen with wingsuiters.

Know your gear, be good with your checks and you'll be fine. Wink


theonlyski  (D License)

Feb 8, 2012, 1:03 PM
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In reply to:
It 'can' happen only if the harness isn't properly connected at all points or not fitted right, snugged up tight.

Chest strap not connected you 'could' go out the front, legstraps too loose and sit-flying and you 'could' go out the back through the 'hole', legstraps not connected and out the bottom as we've seen with wingsuiters.

Know your gear, be good with your checks and you'll be fine. Wink

Don't forget chest strap too loose while head down.Tongue


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Feb 8, 2012, 1:28 PM
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Re: [ShcShc11] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

>In what situations can you fall out of the harnesses?

Worst case is deploying in a sit after the legstraps have ridden way up your legs. To avoid this:

1) Don't deploy in a sit

2) Use a buttstrap or an elastic to keep the legstraps where they are supposed to be if you sitfly. That way a premature deployment won't cause major problems.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 8, 2012, 7:21 PM
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Re: [ShcShc11] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

Half of the problems occurred with second-hand harnesses.
... when the first owner was much larger than the (deceased) second owner.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 8, 2012, 7:28 PM
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Re: [dragon2] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... As far as the cheststrap goes, as long as you close it correctly, it doesn't actually has to be tight to prevent you from falling out of the harness. In fact when bellyflying, provided the rig fits you reasonably well, you want the cheststrap fairly loose so you can ARCH. ...
"

......................................................................

The last accident happened circa 2000, in Lodi, California. The female skydiver had a new set of boobs that hurt every time she tightened her chest strap, so she got into the habit of boarding the airplane with her chest strap undone. Most jumps, she fastened her chest strap a few minutes before exit. On her last jump, she forgot to attach her chest strap and fell of her harness half way down.

That is why most DZs will not allow you to board the airplane until all your straps are fastened and snug.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 8, 2012, 7:37 PM
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Re: [ShcShc11] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... Would a belly-strap help like Bill Booth advised? ...
"

.....................................................................

Bellybands are most helpful on large rigs ... like student rigs (250 - 300 square foot canopies), military freefall and tandem.
As solo rigs get smaller (e.g. less than 200 square foot canopies), belly-bands get less and less important.
Belly-bands do help prevent leg straps from wandering away from the crease where your thigh meets your buttock.


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

Feb 8, 2012, 8:43 PM
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Re: [riggerrob] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"
In reply to:
... Would a belly-strap help like Bill Booth advised? ...
"

.....................................................................

Bellybands are most helpful on large rigs ... like student rigs (250 - 300 square foot canopies), military freefall and tandem.
As solo rigs get smaller (e.g. less than 200 square foot canopies), belly-bands get less and less important.
Belly-bands do help prevent leg straps from wandering away from the crease where your thigh meets your buttock.

Ah if only belly bands were fashionable...


rnicks  (A License)

Feb 8, 2012, 8:48 PM
Post #12 of 29 (1722 views)
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In reply to:
Its probably an irational fear, but I always hesitate in doing new things because of this fear of falling out of the harnesses (e.g: barrel rolls, flips, etc...).

I had the exact same fear as a student and 600 jumps later that fear has not let up even a little. I have custom fitting gear however I sinch down all my straps to the point of inpeding blood flow! I am routinely told that my chest strap is too tight but I don't feel it interferes with my flying at all. (I open it all the way under canopy). I check my straps literally about 20 times.

Hopefully your fear does not get out of control like mine has. It's really annoying but it seems I can't stop the behavior. Right now as a student is the time to develop a routine of 3 checks and don't let the fear become an obsession.


spootch  (C License)

Feb 8, 2012, 10:02 PM
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Re: [rnicks] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

Theres nothing wrong with having a snug chest strap. keeping the chest strap loose to "arch" is nothing but a shitty old myth. Even without an articulating harneses a jumper can arch in it. The chest strap helps keep the webbing over your shoulders....well, over your shoulders. it also helps keep your handles where you remember themSmile as for the ass bungee jumpers use, I have a better idea. Call me up mr BoothWink


piisfish

Feb 9, 2012, 12:35 AM
Post #14 of 29 (1669 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
"
In reply to:
... Would a belly-strap help like Bill Booth advised? ...
"

.....................................................................

Bellybands are most helpful on large rigs ... like student rigs (250 - 300 square foot canopies), military freefall and tandem.
As solo rigs get smaller (e.g. less than 200 square foot canopies), belly-bands get less and less important.
Belly-bands do help prevent leg straps from wandering away from the crease where your thigh meets your buttock.

Ah if only belly bands were fashionable...
isn't there a trend coming with belly bands on VFS team rigs ?


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 9, 2012, 2:30 AM
Post #15 of 29 (1652 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ah if only belly bands were fashionable...

They are now! Check the 2:20 time:

http://www.youtube.com/...g#p/u/15/SErtpdKLsM4


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 9, 2012, 2:33 AM
Post #16 of 29 (1648 views)
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Re: [rnicks] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had the exact same fear as a student and 600 jumps later that fear has not let up even a little. I have custom fitting gear however I sinch down all my straps to the point of inpeding blood flow! I am routinely told that my chest strap is too tight but I don't feel it interferes with my flying at all. (I open it all the way under canopy). I check my straps literally about 20 times.

Hopefully your fear does not get out of control like mine has. It's really annoying but it seems I can't stop the behavior. Right now as a student is the time to develop a routine of 3 checks and don't let the fear become an obsession.

I do not want to add to your fear, but here is a good video...:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_MsYQ3GtAg





Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 9, 2012, 2:35 AM
Post #17 of 29 (1645 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you fall out of a properly fastened harness?:

http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/fallout.html


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 9, 2012, 5:55 AM
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Re: [spootch] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Theres nothing wrong with having a snug chest strap. keeping the chest strap loose to "arch" is nothing but a shitty old myth.

In defense of loose chest straps:

Huh?
We're not talking about dangling loose. Or are you?

A chest strap can be too snug to comfortably arch in. I certainly "test arch" when adjusting my chest strap so it isn't restricting me. What feels just right when standing straight is too tight when arching. So I sure as hell leave my chest strap loose.

Or does everyone else's rigs fit better than mine?

And one sees people with fully articulated rigs (including chest rings) who snug the chest strap in so much that it looks from the front like their harness is "X" shaped not "H" shaped. That's way too snug, even if the extra flex of the harness can require a little more snugness than a non-articulated harness.

And there are plenty of times I've adjusted a student's chest strap looser. They might feel safer when held in like with a straight jacket, but there's a level of looseness that keeps the lift webs straight to load the harness properly, keeps the harness on the shoulders, and still gives the student movement and the ability to arch.

So I can't agree with you unless you are talking about some behavior where leaving the chest strap loose enough to dangle down in an deep arc was the trend.

And I don't want newbies to think that yanking that chest strap TIGHT is the right way to go.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Feb 9, 2012, 5:59 AM)


spootch  (C License)

Feb 9, 2012, 8:14 AM
Post #19 of 29 (1557 views)
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Re: [pchapman] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Theres nothing wrong with having a snug chest strap. keeping the chest strap loose to "arch" is nothing but a shitty old myth.

In defense of loose chest straps:

Huh?
We're not talking about dangling loose. Or are you?


Huh?
We're not talking about fiddle string tight are you ?


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 9, 2012, 8:30 AM
Post #20 of 29 (1544 views)
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Re: [spootch] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's sounding like it is just a matter of how simple terms are interpreted. A well adjusted chest strap might simultaneously be called tight (in that it isn't dangling loose) and loose (in that it isn't constricting someone's arch and movement and could be a lot tighter).

For this thread in general, the point is that with gear that isn't totally ill-fitting, a chest strap that is slightly snug is sufficient to keep a jumper in the harness. One doesn't need (through fear) to reef it so tight that it constricts movement. We can probably agree on that.


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

Feb 9, 2012, 8:32 AM
Post #21 of 29 (1542 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Ah if only belly bands were fashionable...

They are now! Check the 2:20 time:

http://www.youtube.com/...g#p/u/15/SErtpdKLsM4

hmm! Tongue


spootch  (C License)

Feb 9, 2012, 9:07 AM
Post #22 of 29 (1520 views)
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Re: [pchapman] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's sounding like it is just a matter of how simple terms are interpreted. A well adjusted chest strap might simultaneously be called tight (in that it isn't dangling loose) and loose (in that it isn't constricting someone's arch and movement and could be a lot tighter).

For this thread in general, the point is that with gear that isn't totally ill-fitting, a chest strap that is slightly snug is sufficient to keep a jumper in the harness. One doesn't need (through fear) to reef it so tight that it constricts movement. We can probably agree on that.

Agreed ! FWIW when I gear up a student, I pull the chest strap tight enough to put tension on the MLW (with the student in a standing position). On my gear I run with a little slack in it. (sitting in the plane it has lots of droop in it ) As for the poster with 600 jumps who wears it like a bondage toy, I wouldn't wear it that tight (for comfort reasons ) but hey if it works for him......Cool


rnicks  (A License)

Feb 9, 2012, 9:16 AM
Post #23 of 29 (1514 views)
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Re: [pchapman] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And one sees people with fully articulated rigs (including chest rings) who snug the chest strap in so much that it looks from the front like their harness is "X" shaped not "H" shaped. That's way too snug, even if the extra flex of the harness can require a little more snugness than a non-articulated harness.

Just curious to know why this is too snug? I wear mine this snug and probably even tighter than what you have described. I don't feel it hinders my arch at all. I arch with my hips, not my chest. I routinely jump with people over twice my size and have no problems staying down.

In reply to:
One doesn't need (through fear) to reef it so tight that it constricts movement. We can probably agree on that.

Completely agree with you on this. However my point in replying to the OP was that I did let this become an unnecessary fear. Trying to advise her not to let it become a problem because it is a hard fear to break.


beowulf  (C License)

Feb 9, 2012, 9:34 AM
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Re: [piisfish] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
"
In reply to:
... Would a belly-strap help like Bill Booth advised? ...
"

.....................................................................

Bellybands are most helpful on large rigs ... like student rigs (250 - 300 square foot canopies), military freefall and tandem.
As solo rigs get smaller (e.g. less than 200 square foot canopies), belly-bands get less and less important.
Belly-bands do help prevent leg straps from wandering away from the crease where your thigh meets your buttock.

Ah if only belly bands were fashionable...
isn't there a trend coming with belly bands on VFS team rigs ?

I haven't noticed that, but it could be going that way more for keeping the rig from moving around rather then falling out of the harness. I know of one Freefly team in the past that had a belly band installed so that their rig didn't move around when they were doing back flying.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 9, 2012, 10:55 AM
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Re: [rnicks] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
their harness is "X" shaped not "H" shaped. That's way too snug,

Just curious to know why this is too snug? I wear mine this snug

I'm not that experienced with articulated harnesses, so it is more my impression that a few are over tightened. I don't think such designs intend to have the MLW pulled inwards at the chest, but other than loading the chest strap some more -- maybe it isn't a big deal, as long as one feels secure in the harness and can still move easily.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Feb 9, 2012, 11:03 AM
Post #26 of 29 (525 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
their harness is "X" shaped not "H" shaped. That's way too snug,

Just curious to know why this is too snug? I wear mine this snug

I'm not that experienced with articulated harnesses, so it is more my impression that a few are over tightened. I don't think such designs intend to have the MLW pulled inwards at the chest, but other than loading the chest strap some more -- maybe it isn't a big deal, as long as one feels secure in the harness and can still move easily.

I'm not sure distorting the harness is such a good idea as fas as your cutaway and reserve handles go. I've seen mlw on rigs with chest rings distorted into fairly sharp angles when over-tightened. Maybe manufacturers or riggers can coment on how this might impact reserve procedures (forces).


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 9, 2012, 11:17 AM
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In reply to:
I'm not sure distorting the harness is such a good idea as fas as your cutaway and reserve handles go. I've seen mlw on rigs with chest rings distorted into fairly sharp angles when over-tightened. Maybe manufacturers or riggers can coment on how this might impact reserve procedures (forces).

"I got saved by a backup device (RSL) on Thursday, August 28th. I
thought I'd relay the information.

My background:
5000+ jumps
107 cutaways (No, i don't need to learn how to pack, a lot of test
jumps and films.)
About 20 unplanned cutaways.
21 years jumping, AFF I/E, Static Line I/E, Full time instructor at Perris, AFF Course Director for USPA.

Equipment Background
Rig- Javelin, Articulated harness (Rings top and bottom), RSL and Cypres equipped.
Soft Reserve pillow
Main, Stiletto 135
Reserve- PD143R
I wear my leg straps and chest strap quite tight.

The jump:
A great AFF Level 4, the student did well, I watched deployment on the
student's canopy, and hung around to give a thumbs up for the camera. This put everything happening a little lower than usual, so I threw the main out at about 2100, as opposed to the usual 2500 since I've gotten older and hopefully wiser.

The main opened into a severe spin. There were no line twists, but I
don't know what caused the spin, as I could not see the left side of
the canopy. After the usual playing around with it, I decided to get
rid of it. My procedures are grab cutaway, grab reserve, pull cutaway,
pull reserve. I went for the cutaway handle, and to my surprise, it was
on the LEFT side of my chest.

I grabbed it, and reached for the reserve handle. It was somewhere under my left armpit. I could only touch it with my thumb, and not grab it. My theory is that a combination of the severe spin and the articulated harness allowed the handles to move so far. I had also practiced hooking my thumb between the reserve pillow and
the housing. I was unable to do it. I then pulled the cutaway handle, as I was not accomplishing anything in my attempt to find the reserve handle.

After pulling the cutaway, I continued to search for the reserve
pillow. I was unable to find it. I theorize that it tucked under the
main lift web as the harness slid back into position. That theory took
a couple of days to figure out. Being honest, I have my sincere doubts that I would have found the handle within the 6 seconds of working time that I had left. My RSL prevented me from knowing the answer.
I have since modified my rig to include a standard ripcord on the
reserve. This should also serve as a reminder that backup devices,
whether they be RSL or AAD can save your life, no matter what your
experience.

Please don't make this into a debate thread, there have been enough. I just wanted to share the experience, so people could make informed decisions.

Rick Horn
D-6277 AFFI/E
USPA AFF Course Director"


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 9, 2012, 11:18 AM
Post #28 of 29 (520 views)
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Re: [beowulf] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I haven't noticed that, but it could be going that way more for keeping the rig from moving around rather then falling out of the harness. I know of one Freefly team in the past that had a belly band installed so that their rig didn't move around when they were doing back flying.

Legendary skysurfer Patric de Gayardon jumbed a Vector 3 with a belly band as well.


Deyan  (D 322)

Feb 9, 2012, 11:30 AM
Post #29 of 29 (514 views)
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Re: [dragon2] In what situations can you fall out of the harness? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I'm not sure distorting the harness is such a good idea as fas as your cutaway and reserve handles go. I've seen mlw on rigs with chest rings distorted into fairly sharp angles when over-tightened. Maybe manufacturers or riggers can coment on how this might impact reserve procedures (forces).

The down side of the articulated harness is that if you don't tighten your chest strap (legstraps as well) , the whole harness can shift quite a lot and in case of a spinning mal, you might not find your handles on the place you expect them to be. That's why is really important to have a harness that fit good.



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