Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Flying a Biplane or side by side

 

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tkhayes  (D 18764)

Feb 10, 2012, 5:40 AM
Post #51 of 57 (459 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Flying a Biplane or side by side [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
'Not remembering' is a long, long way from being able to say 'EVERY TIME'.

Which is it?

I can tell you EVERY TIME is the wrong answer.

-I personally witnessed one landing on the other side of the hangar from the packing tent close to the spectator area over there.

-I personally witnessed one landing in the field across the street from the old Sun Path building.

...and that was on only two of my visits to Z-hills.

Again my point exactly. YOUR experience is land it. MY experience is not to.

Your experience nor my experience has ANY VALID STATISTICAL OR SCIENTIFIC THEORY BEHIND IT.

therefore there is no conclusion. To make one is incorrect. To publish it as 'correct' is further incorrect.

I'm talking to a barn door here and I'm done. I am NOT going to teach my student to land a bi-plane with no flare. Sorry, I am simply not going to do that given the lack of data that we have.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Feb 10, 2012, 6:19 AM
Post #52 of 57 (452 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Flying a Biplane or side by side [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, go ahead and teach what you want, while rest of us will tell em to land without flaring.

Might as well teach them to split the canopy into down plane and chop.

And how did my friend's bi-plane turn into down plane at 15-20 feet and breaking his wrist? By trying to flair the canopy in front, as soon as toggle popped out of the loop, main canopy surged forward and turn it into semi-downplane. This guy had 150 sabre2 main with 160 ish reserve. On this case he should've induced down plane 1000ft ago and landed on his reserve.

Teaching student to PLF is the best bet IMO.
I've never heard of student being in sub 200ft canopy anywhere besides Lodi.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on Feb 10, 2012, 6:28 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 10, 2012, 7:14 AM
Post #53 of 57 (435 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Flying a Biplane or side by side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm talking to a barn door here and I'm done. I am NOT going to teach my student to land a bi-plane with no flare. Sorry, I am simply not going to do that given the lack of data that we have.
Well, if you are trying to press your way doing things onto this barn door, then yes...you are talking to one.

I thought we had been discussing options and the pros/cons of it all. Some of the options discussed have been useful, some not. If it is now just an issue of flare/no flare, then OK...I don't see a big deal either way....IF the student manages to flare at an altitude that puts him down safely as opposed to too high and folds up one of the two for a crash.

The important part, IMO, was the idea of an automatic cutaway on a biplane or a side-by-side. Those are much more dangerous to the inexperienced youngster.

So far, what I've seen is that some testing is better than no testing. I'm just not one to re-invent the wheel and your reasoning for teaching differently has not convinced me to move away from USPA recommendations.

Bottom line:
You run the place. By all means teach whatever you like.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 10, 2012, 10:33 AM
Post #54 of 57 (421 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Flying a Biplane or side by side [In reply to] Can't Post

>therefore there is no conclusion. To make one is incorrect.

Well, to draw a conclusion is something we all do. You did it.

The issue is that a biplane made out of two student canopies is fairly stable and will likely land someone safely if they don't mess with it. A single reserve is even better - but getting that requires the main to either slide past the reserve, slider, bridle, bag and all, or it requires the student to force a downplane - and if he freezes after he forces the downplane he's dead.

So do you have him keep something that will likely land someone safely, or go with the option that has a better chance of landing him safely - but also a slight chance of creating a nonsurvivable problem? There are pluses and minuses on both sides of the issue. I think that keeping the biplane makes more sense, but that's just me.


Mickochet  (D 26656)

Feb 10, 2012, 11:58 AM
Post #55 of 57 (411 views)
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Re: [billvon] Flying a Biplane or side by side [In reply to] Can't Post

I have landed a side by side before (PLF) My main was a 99 FX and my reserve was a Swift Plus 145. THey actually did not do that badly. I left the toggle stowed and steared with the rear riser and did not flare. Got up and did a Tandem.


Mickochet  (D 26656)

Feb 10, 2012, 12:06 PM
Post #56 of 57 (411 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Flying a Biplane or side by side [In reply to] Can't Post

During my first few months of jumping I went to a new DZ near where my mother was living. She came out to the DZ to see me jump, she had never seen me jump before. A jumper had 2 out while she was watching and as he cut his main away it tangled with his reserve. He lived for about 1/2 hour after he landed. His wife and kids were there as well. So cutting the main away is not always the answer.


peek  (D 8884)

Feb 10, 2012, 1:15 PM
Post #57 of 57 (402 views)
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Re: [Mickochet] Flying a Biplane or side by side [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A jumper had 2 out while she was watching and as he cut his main away it tangled with his reserve.

This is some good data you are adding to the discussion, (along with your post above about successfully landing a side-by-side with canopies that were very dissimilar.) Do you know what configuration the canopies were in right before the cutaway on the guy with the entanglement?


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