Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Reserve activation on the door

 


Skyper

Feb 1, 2012, 12:34 AM
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Reserve activation on the door Can't Post

Reserve was activated on the door. The guy standing behind, pushed her out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKDhay9aYqk

'action' starts @ 0.30


(This post was edited by Skyper on Feb 1, 2012, 12:35 AM)


piisfish

Feb 1, 2012, 12:53 AM
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what kind of rig is that ? HArd to tell from the video (at work). Looks like a Parachute Shop Vectra.

Thanks for the video, teaches us to not only respect our handles, but also our pins.


ferrarimv

Feb 1, 2012, 2:53 AM
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Unimpressed Shocked wow....

deff...need to mind the ceiling of plane to make sure ur pack doesn't get caught on anything... Crazy


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 1, 2012, 3:29 AM
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Re: [ferrarimv] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

Could have been worse...:
http://www.youtube.com/...yt-sIMym0&fmt=18

Full report of the fatality:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/...air200101903_001.pdf

Would not have happened on Vector 3:
http://www.dropzone.com/...lap%20design;#542700


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Feb 1, 2012, 3:32 AM)


Abedy  (D 10153)

Feb 1, 2012, 8:45 AM
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Aero wheels (called "Rh÷nrad" here - there's also a link to an English version) are really fun, but you gotta be careful when exiting, especially when doing it 4- or even 5-way. And, a well-protected reserve flap or, much better, a pop-top reserve, always is a good idea.


Abedy  (D 10153)

Feb 1, 2012, 8:53 AM
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In reply to:

Touching video/story, haven't seen it before.

Good example to show to low-number ...well, all jumpers to always secure the door on jump run.


beowulf  (C License)

Feb 1, 2012, 9:06 AM
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Good thing she was pushed out! It could have been a major accident, as it is it was just a long canopy ride.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Feb 1, 2012, 9:10 AM
Post #8 of 50 (6368 views)
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Happened to us at Brown Field. Almost tore the tail off our King Air; it's pretty amazing there weren't any major injuries. The pilots actually managed to land the plane after breaking the shear pin that connected the elevator on the damaged horizontal stab to the other elevator.


rhopstr  (A 711219)

Feb 1, 2012, 10:10 AM
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I'm pretty sure I recognise the interior of that plane.. If I'm not mistaken thats the PH-JMP from Paracentrum Teuge in The Netherlands.

Impressive response from the guy that spotted the PC and threw her out!


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Feb 1, 2012, 11:54 AM
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Does anybody have the picture of Mike Mullins after landing with half his tail missing? It must have been 15 years ago.

Or is my memory inventing things again...?

_Am


Deyan  (D 322)

Feb 1, 2012, 11:57 AM
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In reply to:
what kind of rig is that ?

Atom


slingerapie  (B 113237)

Feb 1, 2012, 12:16 PM
Post #12 of 50 (6202 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
what kind of rig is that ?

Atom

Indeed it is an Atom, thanx Deyan :-)

Since I am the girl in the video a short reply.

The plan was to do a wagonwheel exit with my boyfriend. (who is actually the one pushing me out of the plane) I couldn't reach his suit whilst standing in the door, and shuffled a bit backward. While doing that, my reserve flap got wedged in the door opening. (kind of "peelded" off) resulting in my reserve activation.

And yes I am forever grateful for my boyfriend, if it wasn't for his reaction of pushing me, I think me and the others in that plane could have been a lot worse.
Grateful that it only cost me a long pretty long ride down (9000ft) and a new repack.

Oh and it was my 454th jump.

Hopefully others can learn from this.

Greetz
illona


Deyan  (D 322)

Feb 1, 2012, 12:45 PM
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In reply to:
Would not have happened on Vector 3 Racer


Fixed for you Wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv_NqiT7pM

I know he did not hit his reserve pin, but the title of this thread is : "reserve activation on the door' right?!

And I'm sure that someday somewhere somebody will find the way to jam his Racer poptop cap somewhere, break both loops and end up with an open reserve on the tail of the plane Crazy


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Feb 1, 2012, 12:56 PM
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Re: [slingerapie] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for posting!
Great video.
Hang on to that boyfriend. Cool


fcajump  (D 15598)

Feb 1, 2012, 12:59 PM
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VERY Glad you're (still around and) able to reply to this thread!! Smile

Also glad that its been posted for us to learn from.

When my FJC instructor briefed us on pushing someone out in such a case, and included himself in that, it really spooked me... (I'm better now Wink)

Your video shows that ANYONE can be in the position to take quick/decisive action to help save the day.

Congrats to your BF for quick action.

JW


fcajump  (D 15598)

Feb 1, 2012, 1:02 PM
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Re: [AndyMan] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

~1995ish - Hartwood Harry brought a Twin-Bo back missing the right side horizontal stab when Burt "The Beech Killer" snagged his reserve handle on the front floater handle. (Handle was modified prior to the next flight.)

JW


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 1, 2012, 1:39 PM
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"
In reply to:
... someday somewhere somebody will find the way to jam his ... poptop ...
.

....................................................................

Some one has already accidentally deployed a Pop-Top reserve.

This relates to Billvon's earlier post.

It happened during the late 1990s. Mickey Cottle told me about a skydiver who slammed his Reflex (Pop-Top) reserve pilot-chute against the top of the door frame, so many times and so hard that he cut the closing loop.

The closing loop was slammed between the aluminum door frame and a steel grommet.
This similar to the trick of cutting rope with a (smooth-faced) hammer and an anvil (smooth). Any time a cord/rope/etc. is tensioned, it is very easy to cut with blunt tools.

Just proves that any reserve container can be accidentally deployed if you slam it against the door frame hard enough and often enough.


Deyan  (D 322)

Feb 1, 2012, 1:51 PM
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I know a story for a guy who did this with his 1 pin Teardrop, that's why I said Racer poptop. My point was that unlike Reflex and Teradrop, Racer has a soft cap and 2 loops......and still they gonna find the way to f@$k it up Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Feb 1, 2012, 2:05 PM
Post #19 of 50 (6098 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

>It happened during the late 1990s. Mickey Cottle told me about a skydiver who
>slammed his Reflex (Pop-Top) reserve pilot-chute against the top of the door frame,
>so many times and so hard that he cut the closing loop. The closing loop was
>slammed between the aluminum door frame and a steel grommet.

You sure that was a Reflex? Mick was on the King Air jump where we had a canopy deploy over the tail after the student slammed his Telesis into the top of the door frame so many times that he deployed the reserve. It would seem to be quite hard to do that on a Reflex unless you caught the poptop on the door and exited, thus overloading the closing loop.

But maybe there was another incident I didn't hear about.


DvK  (B License)

Feb 1, 2012, 2:16 PM
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In reply to:
I'm pretty sure I recognise the interior of that plane.. If I'm not mistaken thats the PH-JMP from Paracentrum Teuge in The Netherlands.

Impressive response from the guy that spotted the PC and threw her out!

My tought exactly about this beingthe PH-JMP.

And indeed one hell of a quick reaction from the second para, pushing the first one out. Things could have gotten bad real quick here


virgin-burner

Feb 1, 2012, 2:22 PM
Post #21 of 50 (6075 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would not have happened on Vector 3

anyone have the link to the video with the doorhandle snagging the reserve? freak-accidents probably occur with ANY rig if you look hard enough for them..


Deyan  (D 322)

Feb 1, 2012, 2:38 PM
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Re: [virgin-burner] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

check the video from post # 13 Wink


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 1, 2012, 2:47 PM
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Re: [slingerapie] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it correct that the rig is an OLD Atom?

I thought newer Atoms have a pin cover flap that tucks into the bottom flap -- a style that became common in the mid to late 1990's (on rigs in general) to reduce the snag hazard of the reserve top flap on may rigs.

But the video, e.g. at 35 or 43 sec, seems to show an "old style" pin cover flap, where the edge of the pin cover flap is completely exposed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That style is considered quite out of date nowadays when it comes to pin protection -- a type of rig where one has to be extra careful when moving around.


Even the tuck-in style flaps can have problems I guess? I bet a hard push against the rig & upwards on such a pin cover flap can shift it upwards and take the pin with it. Anyone have examples of such rigs having pins popped??


(This post was edited by pchapman on Feb 1, 2012, 2:48 PM)


Deyan  (D 322)

Feb 1, 2012, 3:14 PM
Post #24 of 50 (6036 views)
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In reply to:
Is it correct that the rig is an OLD Atom?

Correct

In reply to:
That style is considered quite out of date nowadays when it comes to pin protection -- a type of rig where one has to be extra careful when moving around.

True! But not everyone can afford a new gear.

In reply to:
Even the tuck-in style flaps can have problems I guess? I bet a hard push against the rig & upwards on such a pin cover flap can shift it upwards and take the pin with it. Anyone have examples of such rigs having pins popped??

The same DZ, the same plane 10 months earlier.
http://www.dropzone.com/...ent%20teuge;#3990102

The rig then was a newer Atom with the pin cover tucked in.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 1, 2012, 3:41 PM
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Re: [billvon] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

My memory may be vague.

The first accident - at Brown's Field - may have included a Student Telesis (made by Rigging Innovations), but I also remember Mickey telling me about a similar incident involving a Reflex.
The Reflex accident may have occurred closer to 2000.

But the bottom line remains the same: slam any rig hard enough against a door frame and you can accidentally deploy the reserve.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 1, 2012, 3:43 PM
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Re: [Deyan] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

I certainly don't mind older gear... but it can take special attention. And, as with the link you kindly provided, newer gear isn't 'bombproof' either.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 1, 2012, 3:44 PM
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The first time I saw a tuck-in reserve flap was on a (Para-Flite) EOS container, circa 1990.
The second tuck-in flap was on a (Rigging Innovations) Flexon made in 1991.
Almost all of the other container manufacturers had adopted tuck-in reserve pin-covers by the turn of the century.


virgin-burner

Feb 1, 2012, 3:55 PM
Post #28 of 50 (2580 views)
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Re: [Deyan] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
check the video from post # 13 Wink

ups! Angelic


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 1, 2012, 5:02 PM
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Re: [slingerapie] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad everything turned out well.

Major kudos to the BF for pushing you out. He did exactly the right thing at the right time.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Feb 1, 2012, 5:08 PM
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In reply to:
~1995ish - Hartwood Harry brought a Twin-Bo back missing the right side horizontal stab when Burt "The Beech Killer" snagged his reserve handle on the front floater handle. (Handle was modified prior to the next flight.)

That sounds right.

Anybody got the picture? I know it was going around at some point, but haven't seen it in a while.

_Am


slingerapie  (B 113237)

Feb 2, 2012, 8:17 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Glad everything turned out well.

Major kudos to the BF for pushing you out. He did exactly the right thing at the right time.

Agreed!! I am certainly going to keep this one Wink

As for the gear: the Atom was if I remember correctly from '93.
Before this accident no problems, it was well maintained and updated. But, as pointed out, reserve flap not tucked in.
And, if we had taken more time to plan our exit, we might have stumbled upon the problem of me not reaching my BF's legs.

Since I never found my freebag, and the costs of a replacement would have exceeded the amount the rig was worth, I decided that it was time for newer gear :-)

(ofcourse 3 weeks after buying other gear a farmer brought the freebag in)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 2, 2012, 8:22 PM
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"
In reply to:
'... Since I never found my freebag, and the costs of a replacement would have exceeded the amount the rig was worth, I decided that it was time for newer gear :-)

(of course 3 weeks after buying other gear a farmer brought the freebag in)
"

.......................................................................

The last time some-one returned a tandem reserve pilot-chute and free-bag - that had been laying in the sun for three weeks - I cut out the spring and threw the rest in the garbage.

The DZO was "*&^%$#@!
But he was also smart enough to know that I would never put my signature on top of pilot-chute that was that badly faded.


airwolfe04  (D 13999)

Oct 2, 2012, 2:10 PM
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Date was July 14, 1991. I was on the load w/Sean Matthis. We were going to do a 2-way, and were last out. Felt the TwinBo bump on jumprun, and Harry (pilot & DZO) started yelling for everyone to get out NOW! Saw Burt unconscious under his reserve as I exited. I was a little freaked, so Sean and I just blew off our 2-way. Not so w/the 5 or 6-way in front of us who were turning points below us! Landed ~6 miles off Hartwood. NTSB report below:


NTSB Identification: BFO91LA073.
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 44161.
Accident occurred Sunday, July 14, 1991 in HARTWOOD, VA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 05/05/1993
Aircraft: BEECH H50, registration: N171S
Injuries: 1 Minor,6 Uninjured.
AS THE FIRST PARACHUTIST WAS PREPARING TO JUMP FROM THE WING AT AN ALTITUDE OF 12,000 FEET, HIS RESERVE PARACHUTE RELEASE HANDLE BECAME ATTACHED TO SOME PART OF THE AIRPLANE. BEFORE HE COULD REACT, THE PARACHUTE OPENED AND PULLED HIM FROM THE WING. THE PARTIALLY DEPLOYED CHUTE WRAPPED AROUND THE RIGHT HORIZONTAL STABILIZER, SLAMMING HIM AGAINST THE AIRCRAFT. THE RIGHT STABILIZER BROKE AWAY AND THE JUMPER DESCENDED TO A SAFE LANDING UNDER THE DEPLOYED CANOPY. THE PILOT WAS ABLE TO MAINTAIN CONTROL OF THE AIRCRAFT AND LAND WITHOUT FURTHER INCIDENT.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:

THE PARACHUTIST FAILURE TO PROPERLY MONITOR AND SECURE HIS RELEASE HANDLE TO PROTECT AGAINST ACCIDENTAL PARACHUTE DEPLOYMENT.
Index for Jul1991 | Index of months


fcajump  (D 15598)

Oct 2, 2012, 3:11 PM
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In reply to:
Date was July 14, 1991. I was on the load w/Sean Matthis....yelling for everyone to get out NOW!

I suspect that Harry's language was a bit more colorful than that Tongue

Glad everyone was OK...

JW


pontiacgtp00  (F 111)

Oct 2, 2012, 8:48 PM
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In reply to:
Could have been worse...:
http://www.youtube.com/...yt-sIMym0&fmt=18

Full report of the fatality:
http://www.atsb.gov.au/...air200101903_001.pdf

Would not have happened on Vector 3:
http://www.dropzone.com/...lap%20design;#542700


I've looked for this video forever, no wonder I couldn't ever find it with a name like "naggas"


sundevil777  (D License)

Oct 2, 2012, 9:45 PM
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Re: [pontiacgtp00] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would not have happened on Vector 3:

The design prevents the cover flap from being pulled open. but things can still get ripped open if the entire flap gets snagged on the bottom edge.


NukeVagabond  (B License)

Oct 2, 2012, 11:53 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Glad everything turned out well.

Major kudos to the BF for pushing you out. He did exactly the right thing at the right time.

I'm glad everything turned out fine, and in no way am I trying to offend/attack anyone. This is for my edification, and hopefully other jumpers.

Is the right move really to kick out the jumper? Wouldn't it be more conservative and safer to pull them in while maintaining control of their pilot chute?

It seems her riding the plane down is much safer than risk the pilot chute wrapping around the tail. While the chance may be minimal the risk seems too great.

Is it him kicker her while holding her pilot chute, then releasing after she has cleared the door what makes it safe?


(This post was edited by NukeVagabond on Oct 2, 2012, 11:59 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Oct 3, 2012, 1:26 AM
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Re: [billvon] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>It happened during the late 1990s. Mickey Cottle told me about a skydiver who
>slammed his Reflex (Pop-Top) reserve pilot-chute against the top of the door frame,
>so many times and so hard that he cut the closing loop. The closing loop was
>slammed between the aluminum door frame and a steel grommet.

You sure that was a Reflex? Mick was on the King Air jump where we had a canopy deploy over the tail after the student slammed his Telesis into the top of the door frame so many times that he deployed the reserve. It would seem to be quite hard to do that on a Reflex unless you caught the poptop on the door and exited, thus overloading the closing loop.

But maybe there was another incident I didn't hear about.

Just to point out that on a 1 pin Teardrop, you can catch the pop-top on the door and strip the quick loop - you don't have to break the loop. I know this from personal experienceBlush


shorehambeach  (C License)

Oct 3, 2012, 6:04 AM
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Re: [nigel99] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

OK... newbie piping into this thread here....so you've got your reserve wrapped around the tail of the plane. Not a nice thought.....

WTF do you do ?

Use your trusty knife to cut your lines til free and then pull your main ?

Frown






Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 4, 2012, 2:29 PM
Post #42 of 50 (1915 views)
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Re: [shorehambeach] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

>Use your trusty knife to cut your lines til free and then pull your main ?

If you are being towed behind the aircraft with the canopy completely collapsed? Do what you can to clear it using the lines and risers.

If the canopy is partially inflated and stuck and pulling the tail off the airplane? I'd get out the hookknife then use your main.

That being said I have only heard of one case, ever, where the second option was an option. Usually it is over so fast you don't know what happened.


pincheck  (C 105040)

Oct 4, 2012, 3:09 PM
Post #43 of 50 (1906 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is it correct that the rig is an OLD Atom?

I thought newer Atoms have a pin cover flap that tucks into the bottom flap -- a style that became common in the mid to late 1990's (on rigs in general) to reduce the snag hazard of the reserve top flap on may rigs.

But the video, e.g. at 35 or 43 sec, seems to show an "old style" pin cover flap, where the edge of the pin cover flap is completely exposed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That style is considered quite out of date nowadays when it comes to pin protection -- a type of rig where one has to be extra careful when moving around.


Even the tuck-in style flaps can have problems I guess? I bet a hard push against the rig & upwards on such a pin cover flap can shift it upwards and take the pin with it. Anyone have examples of such rigs having pins popped??

Yeh looks like while setting up the Jumper moved to get head out the door while then moving back and up. At 40-42 secs jumper caught the flap and probably pushed the pin out and so released the pilotchute all in one motion very lucky


shorehambeach  (C License)

Oct 5, 2012, 2:08 AM
Post #44 of 50 (1859 views)
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Re: [billvon] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Billvon...just stored that in the 'just in case' part of my brain.


jonathan.newman  (D 30644)

Oct 7, 2012, 3:58 PM
Post #45 of 50 (1788 views)
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Re: [billvon] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It would seem to be quite hard to do that on a Reflex unless you caught the poptop on the door and exited, thus overloading the closing loop.

I believe RiggerRob is saying just that here:

Quote:
The closing loop was slammed between the aluminum door frame and a steel grommet.
This similar to the trick of cutting rope with a (smooth-faced) hammer and an anvil (smooth). Any time a cord/rope/etc. is tensioned, it is very easy to cut with blunt tools.

The closing loop on a reflex runs over (half) the fiberglass poptop and then through a grommet and down into the rig. Rob's point is that if you hit this part of the loop enough times with even a blunt piece of metal, it will wear on the closing loop.


JohnnyBoulder

Nov 30, 2013, 7:44 PM
Post #46 of 50 (1439 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

sundevil777 wrote:
In reply to:
Would not have happened on Vector 3:

The design prevents the cover flap from being pulled open. but things can still get ripped open if the entire flap gets snagged on the bottom edge.

Newbie question here ... I am going to order a Javelin and curious how the Javelin compares to the Vector. Thanks.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Dec 1, 2013, 5:01 AM
Post #47 of 50 (1379 views)
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Re: [JohnnyBoulder] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnnyBoulder wrote:
Newbie question here ... I am going to order a Javelin and curious how the Javelin compares to the Vector. Thanks.

Well, this fatal accident happened on Javelin, and would not have happened on Vector 3...:

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4267089#4267089


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Dec 1, 2013, 5:02 AM)


flygirl1220  (Student)

Dec 1, 2013, 12:18 PM
Post #48 of 50 (1224 views)
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Re: [Skyper] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

http://youtu.be/64EvXDAQGHU?t=1m45s

Here is a reserve activation on the door from a Cessna.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 6, 2013, 7:32 PM
Post #49 of 50 (1025 views)
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Re: [Deyan] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

Deyan wrote:
In reply to:
Would not have happened on Vector 3 Racer


Fixed for you Wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv_NqiT7pM

I know he did not hit his reserve pin, but the title of this thread is : "reserve activation on the door' right?!

And I'm sure that someday somewhere somebody will find the way to jam his Racer poptop cap somewhere, break both loops and end up with an open reserve on the tail of the plane Crazy

......................................................................

There was a similar accident (circa 1980) when a guy snagged his Racer's reserve ripcord housing on the door handle of a Cessna. As he fell away from the airplane, he ripped the ripcord housing off his harness!
This was before it was fashionable to hide reserve ripcord housings inside the yoke.

But the moral of the story is: be careful out there, because - if you try hard enough - you can deploy any parachute by dragging it across a door-frame.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 7, 2013, 6:04 AM
Post #50 of 50 (885 views)
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Re: [billvon] Reserve activation on the door [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>It happened during the late 1990s. Mickey Cottle told me about a skydiver who
>slammed his Reflex (Pop-Top) reserve pilot-chute against the top of the door frame,
>so many times and so hard that he cut the closing loop. The closing loop was
>slammed between the aluminum door frame and a steel grommet.

You sure that was a Reflex? Mick was on the King Air jump where we had a canopy deploy over the tail after the student slammed his Telesis into the top of the door frame so many times that he deployed the reserve. It would seem to be quite hard to do that on a Reflex unless you caught the poptop on the door and exited, thus overloading the closing loop.

But maybe there was another incident I didn't hear about.

I know this is an old thread that just got necromanced, but, that guy Rob/Mick mentioned may have been me! lol

It was in the UK, in 2001 or 2002 I think. And my Reflex poptop got jammed on top of the inside handle of door of a Caravan. 5 more divers behind me, and something had to go. The reserve opening was uneventful, and before I realize exactly what had happened, I had see the plane fly away, and everyone else dive by me.

The reserve pin was a bit bent. I lost my freebag. But I remember, it was the loop that let go.



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