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Additional reasons to not jump camera

 

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hcsvader  (E 2952)

Feb 7, 2012, 5:17 AM
Post #76 of 101 (1339 views)
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Re: [DSE] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

4 different emergency procedures that may be used when jumping a camera with a cutaway system.


1- cutaway, reserve - normal EP
2- camera, cutaway, reserve - horse shoe with camera after main deployment.
3- cutaway, camera, reserve - horse shoe or entanglement with camera after cutting away from malfunction.
4- cutaway, reserve, camera- horse shoe or entanglement with reserve.

Thought this stuff was pretty obvious...


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 7, 2012, 5:21 AM
Post #77 of 101 (1338 views)
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Re: [dthames] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
With that in mind, have you approached your instructor about the possibility of clipping it on, out of the way, after the canopy opens?

No, maybe someday I will. I also have a small MP3 player that has a voice record mode on it. I think it would work in an upper shirt pocket and be somewhat effective. I would not have to use the C word then.

Dan

How about you stop mucking about and just focus on the skydiving, eh?

11 jumps listed, and you're gonna tell us what's up? You'don't know what you don't know.


devildog  (C 40302)

Feb 7, 2012, 5:34 AM
Post #78 of 101 (1326 views)
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Re: [dthames] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

I usually don't reply on these, advice wise, since my profile is accurate and with a whopping 80 jumps, not only do I not know what I don't know, sometimes I feel like I don't know that I don't know what I don't know :).

Anyway, I feel your pain about wanting something for a camera. I've always been a fast learner on things that I dive into, be it books, work, or sports, and so hearing about needing a C for the USPA recommendation was really frustrating at first. Sometimes I'm still thinking, "120 jumps to go! Weee!" But I do lurk and read the forums a lot, incidents and safety, and I can see -- as much as I can at this level -- why the numbers are there. And then I got to thinking, if I'm really going to spend a lot of time in this sport, both in jumps and years, really, what is 200 jumps when compared to what I hope will be thousands and thousands? Not a whole lot when you look at the big picture. At only 4 jumps a weekend, it'll only take a year to hit that magic number, and that's starting from 0, and I imagine it will feel like its on me before I know it. I'm already in awe I just hit my 1 year anniversary (Jan 30). So anyway, point being, after I sat back and thought, and thought, and thought, why not just enjoy the ride to 200, learn all you can, and be comfortable in the fact that maybe waiting is best, even if you are a normally "good" at things. After all, it's *only* 200 jumps, and 1 bad early jump will ensure you never fly camera.

Just my .02


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 7, 2012, 7:56 AM
Post #79 of 101 (1286 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
With that in mind, have you approached your instructor about the possibility of clipping it on, out of the way, after the canopy opens?

No, maybe someday I will. I also have a small MP3 player that has a voice record mode on it. I think it would work in an upper shirt pocket and be somewhat effective. I would not have to use the C word then.

Dan

How about you stop mucking about and just focus on the skydiving, eh?

11 jumps listed, and you're gonna tell us what's up? You'don't know what you don't know.

...and, I'm curious; If you have an emergency, are you going to grab your little camera/recorder and search it for the proper emergency procedures? I guess what Iím saying is, if you need a recording device to study what just happened in order to learn from it, maybe the bowling speech is in order? Unsure

Make more skydives! Befriend a good camera flyer to jump with you. Spend the money you saved NOT buying a camera to pay for a few of his/her jumps. My guess is, youíll still learn and youíll have just as much fun. Smile

As for the Camera EP's... Please start a new thread in Photography on this!! Cool


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Feb 7, 2012, 9:24 AM
Post #80 of 101 (1262 views)
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Re: [dthames] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

>I also have a small MP3 player that has a voice record mode on it. I think it would
>work in an upper shirt pocket and be somewhat effective. I would not have to use the
>C word then.

The problem is not that you have a camera on you. The problem is that you get distracted by it - and at 11 jumps you don't have any attention to spare. Anything that distracts you - an MP3 player, a camera, a Nintendo, a banner you want to fly - has a similar potential.

Save the more complex jumps until you have enough experience that you can spare a little attention away from your most important task (saving your own life) to deal with a gadget.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 7, 2012, 10:24 AM
Post #81 of 101 (1241 views)
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Re: [hcsvader] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
4 different emergency procedures that may be used when jumping a camera with a cutaway system.


1- cutaway, reserve - normal EP
2- camera, cutaway, reserve - horse shoe with camera after main deployment.
3- cutaway, camera, reserve - horse shoe or entanglement with camera after cutting away from malfunction.
4- cutaway, reserve, camera- horse shoe or entanglement with reserve.

Thought this stuff was pretty obvious...

Just because you were asked to list what you were trained to do shouldn't indicate that one doesn't understand the processes involved.

three of your four involve a camera cutaway. most of these cameras don't have cutaway systems (indeed, some of them involve tethering the camera to the helmet) so what does one do then?


dthames  (B 37674)

Feb 7, 2012, 10:30 AM
Post #82 of 101 (1240 views)
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Re: [billvon] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I know there is a great deal that I am not aware of. By study and asking questions, some of that is uncovered.

If I donít understand, or if I donít agree, I would invite a logical and sensible explanation. If I still donít get it, I invite a convincing argument that would allow me to see it from a perspective that would put knowledge in the bank.

At my stage in the sport I have to blindly trust those that do know better. I do that.

I am just more accustom to a different sort of conversation that want tends to happen here.

Sorry.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Feb 7, 2012, 10:41 AM
Post #83 of 101 (1231 views)
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Re: [DSE] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
three of your four involve a camera cutaway. most of these cameras don't have cutaway systems (indeed, some of them involve tethering the camera to the helmet) so what does one do then?

why does he have to provide all possible scenarios even for setups he doesn't jump?

- he practiced the procedures, under the advice and mentorship of an experienced cameraman - for the set up personally owned - do you think he missed any other scenarios for that setup?

You have a TON of experience - can you fill in the gaps for other setups? I think that's useful. Or do you have it on a website elsewhere.

(I've followed a lot of your input on camera work when I put my setup together, I'm sincerely interested in your input. I'm not just busting on you busting on him)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 7, 2012, 10:45 AM
Post #84 of 101 (1229 views)
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Re: [dthames] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes, I know there is a great deal that I am not aware of. By study and asking questions, some of that is uncovered.

If I donít understand, or if I donít agree, I would invite a logical and sensible explanation. If I still donít get it, I invite a convincing argument that would allow me to see it from a perspective that would put knowledge in the bank.

At my stage in the sport I have to blindly trust those that do know better. I do that.

I am just more accustom to a different sort of conversation that want tends to happen here.

Sorry.

Part of the problem is that we're all convinced of our abilities that we mistakenly believe go beyond the abilities of others.
The camera incidents thread is filled with people that feel the camera won't be a distraction or alter behavior.
Even highly experienced skydivers have found themselves "out of rhythm" when adding a camera to their jumps. These additional tasks, coupled with not-yet-instinctive tasks, can create situations that at best, you'll get lucky, and at worst, someone else becomes involved.
There are so many considerations...
The two guys whose video I posted a couple days ago were just going out to have fun and take some pix of each other. Aside from the premature deployment, hurt back/neck, and destroyed canopy, the end result could have been much, much worse given proximity and other factors.

We can train better to mitigate the risk, sure. However, there are some tasks best left to developed instinct before adding more responsibilities on the jump.
One example, I can think of well over a dozen instances where merely turning on a small camera has resulted in helmet buckles, chest straps, seat belts, altimeter checks have been missed due to the very small distraction.


TLob456  (C 37825)

Feb 7, 2012, 10:54 AM
Post #85 of 101 (1223 views)
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Re: [DSE] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I can think of well over a dozen instances where merely turning on a small camera has resulted in helmet buckles, chest straps, seat belts, altimeter checks have been missed due to the very small distraction.

Holy SH*% that is scary to me. If you can't remember to properly route your chest strap just because you have a camera on...you should reconsider your hobby as a skydiver. Unless your plan is to never do more than a 2 way, never downsize, never WS, never jump from a novelty craft, or really anything else that would ever introduce a new element.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 7, 2012, 10:55 AM
Post #86 of 101 (1220 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
three of your four involve a camera cutaway. most of these cameras don't have cutaway systems (indeed, some of them involve tethering the camera to the helmet) so what does one do then?

why does he have to provide all possible scenarios even for setups he doesn't jump?

- he practiced the procedures, under the advice and mentorship of an experienced cameraman - for the set up personally owned - do you think he missed any other scenarios for that setup?

You have a TON of experience - can you fill in the gaps for other setups? I think that's useful. Or do you have it on a website elsewhere.

(I've followed a lot of your input on camera work when I put my setup together, I'm sincerely interested in your input. I'm not just busting on you busting on him)

I don't know what the set up is that he has. It's great that there is someone mentoring. If you took my post as "busting him" then it was taken incorrectly. I'd like to spawn more discussion for the newbies reading this thread that haven't considered tethers, cutaways, or EP's.

Honestly, the guy that is considering most of these cameras likely doesn't feel they need one. In several instances, myself or others have had to grab even experienced skydivers tethering their camera to their helmet, and pointing out the risks.

I've been fortunate that for what ever reason, I've never had an entanglement that has caused me to need to use the cutaways that are on all three of my camera helmets, but the EP's for cutting them away are part of every jump.

Quote:
Holy SH*% that is scary to me. If you can't remember to properly route your chest strap just because you have a camera on...you should reconsider your hobby as a skydiver. Unless your plan is to never do more than a 2 way, never downsize, never WS, never jump from a novelty craft, or really anything else that would ever introduce a new element.

And THAT is the skydiver that scares me the most, the one that says "this will never happen to me because...."


(This post was edited by DSE on Feb 7, 2012, 10:56 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Feb 7, 2012, 11:44 AM
Post #87 of 101 (1199 views)
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Re: [TLob456] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

>If you can't remember to properly route your chest strap just because you have
>a camera on...you should reconsider your hobby as a skydiver.

People who DON'T have cameras on sometimes forget their chest straps. Cameras just add to the problem, because during the time that many people check their gear they are messing with their camera.

>Unless your plan is to never do more than a 2 way, never downsize, never WS,
>never jump from a novelty craft, or really anything else that would ever introduce a
>new element.

Agreed, in a way. I'd amend that to:

Never do more than a 2 way, never downsize, never wingsuit, and never jump from a novelty craft until you have the experience and training to do those things.

Never change more than 1 new element at a time, and do so only when you are 100% comfortable with the old elements.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 7, 2012, 11:50 AM
Post #88 of 101 (1194 views)
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Re: [dthames] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

At my stage in the sport I have to blindly trust those that do know better. I do that.

I am just more accustom to a different sort of conversation that want tends to happen here.

Sorry.


In reply to:

Well...Crazy

It's the SOP on the internet Dan, in their defence I'll say that the guys who are responding to you are quite talented and extremely qualified.

They are giving ya the 'average student' advice that's always given and all too often either questioned without cause or totally ignored and it gets frustrating for them.

I'd also like to say to the 'guys' ...in Dan's defence - he's most definitely NOT a 'normal student' so let's step back a moment.

Some of the comments 'dthames' made in a different thread raised an eyebrow, he seemed WAY too 'on the ball' regarding jump numbers & depth of understand.
That prompted me to make private contact thinking 'young motivated guy breezing AFF that's interested and approaching things with good logic'

I was 1/2 right ~ he's an 'old guy' like me, and not doing AFF...he IS however very intelligent, motivated, logical and if everyone understood what all has gone into his making those 11 jumps thus far...you'd agree quite persevering.

He has NO misplaced 'Madd Skillz' opinion of himself, he genuinely wants to know why something is what it is. He's also 'not average' in-that he's dealing with something in order to participate that most of us don't. Smile

So let's ALL 'lighten up' a bit. WinkAngelicCool


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 7, 2012, 11:52 AM
Post #89 of 101 (1191 views)
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Re: [dthames] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

>I am just more accustom to a different sort of conversation that want tends to happen here.

I think the way to have that conversation is to ask "what do people think of X" - that tends to get people's thoughts more than their reasons you shouldn't do it.

If you start off with "I'm planning on doing X" people are generally going to tell you their reasons that you shouldn't do it. (The ones that might otherwise reply "that might be useful" won't reply in that case, since you already said you're doing it.)

The camera thing has become something like the small canopy thing. It seems like well over 50% of the people asking if they should downsize are not looking for answers to that question - they're looking for that one guy to say "go for it." Once they have that one answer (which is the answer they want) they have all the justification they need to make a bad decision.

If you don't fall into that category you might end up (incorrectly) lumped into that group anyway due to the sheer number of people in that category. Which is too bad - and if I lumped you in there I apologize for doing that.


Olmed  (B License)

Feb 7, 2012, 12:05 PM
Post #90 of 101 (1179 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

There are so much to enjoy in skydiving besides from video making. Whats the hurry??Wink


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 7, 2012, 12:26 PM
Post #91 of 101 (1169 views)
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Re: [Olmed] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are so much to enjoy in skydiving besides from video making. Whats the hurry??Wink

I agree!

Pertaining to my prior post though, that jumper isn't asking about video making in the same sense most of the lower jump # people do.

He truly believes that some private POV reviewable input would assist him with his methodical approach.

From what he's told me, I have some doubts that he 'really' needs it ~ because he's extremely aware of what, why & how he's doing what he's doing.

I think he believes it would give him a helpful & positive edge with his learning & progression.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 7, 2012, 2:35 PM
Post #92 of 101 (1130 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
There are so much to enjoy in skydiving besides from video making. Whats the hurry??Wink

I agree!

Pertaining to my prior post though, that jumper isn't asking about video making in the same sense most of the lower jump # people do.

He truly believes that some private POV reviewable input would assist him with his methodical approach.

From what he's told me, I have some doubts that he 'really' needs it ~ because he's extremely aware of what, why & how he's doing what he's doing.

I think he believes it would give him a helpful & positive edge with his learning & progression.

If that is indeed the case, I withdraw my previous suggestion about the bowling speech. However, I still think he'd be money ahead to friend up with a good videographer. In the long run, he'd probly save money and end up with footage he could use and enjoy. Cool


Olmed  (B License)

Feb 8, 2012, 9:19 AM
Post #93 of 101 (1057 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
There are so much to enjoy in skydiving besides from video making. Whats the hurry??Wink

I agree!

Pertaining to my prior post though, that jumper isn't asking about video making in the same sense most of the lower jump # people do.

He truly believes that some private POV reviewable input would assist him with his methodical approach.

From what he's told me, I have some doubts that he 'really' needs it ~ because he's extremely aware of what, why & how he's doing what he's doing.

I think he believes it would give him a helpful & positive edge with his learning & progression.

Someone who believes a camera is going to make the difference has in my opinion missed the whole point.

Starting off by breaking "safety-rules" and do everything your own way has no place in methodically learning.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 8, 2012, 10:23 AM
Post #94 of 101 (1027 views)
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Re: [Olmed] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Starting off by breaking "safety-rules" and do everything your own way has no place in methodically learning.

In reply to:

...Unless maybe the Earth is NOT flat! ShockedWink



But seriously, I understand what you're saying, what YOU don't understand is what the guy I was refering to was saying.

If you'll review, it was not 'Im cool and screw the rules I'm jumping a camera'

It was basicly, 'How would a small camera the size of a Bic lighter cliped to the chest strap, negatively affect my decent under canopy'

~and it was a serious question, not a 'you're all idiots for thinking it will, I know more than you'

...it was a 'I know I don't understand much, tell me why I'm being told not to do this'


That's actually a pretty methodical way of going about understanding something...'Ok you say it's black, why is it black'

Unfortunately we often times seem to mis-hear the question as a statement, 'you're crazy, that's not black, I know more than you do'
... and jump all over the guy asking the question.Unimpressed


For example I could tear apart YOUR statements-
>>>Someone who believes a camera is going to make the difference has in my opinion missed the whole point.
Starting off by breaking "safety-rules" and do everything your own way has no place in methodically learning.<<<

~and twist them all up by showing 20 ways they are incorrect given certian situations of historical reference, and that YOU don't know what you don't know...etc.

~but I'm pretty sure you're not an idiot, you are making a 'general statement' that you believe to be correct, about a camera question.

However given the 'actual' context of the question asked regarding the camera and it use, in 'this' instance...a 'general' statement does little to address the question.

We all can do better than that, like BillVon said, 'it's unfortunate we sometimes lump people together' when they ask a question.

SOMETIMES it's a real question, or a 'real' misunderstanding and piling on with negative insulting responces is rather counter productive to advancing that understanding.

When ya hear hoofs don't ALWAYS think horses, there are a few Zebras in there sometimes! Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Feb 8, 2012, 10:33 AM)


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Feb 8, 2012, 10:31 AM
Post #95 of 101 (1022 views)
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Re: [dthames] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I tried to talk about this on a thread some weeks ago but the replies were not much of a conversation. It was more like no one was reading the text of the message. This thread appears to have attracted a different crowd.

I have an interest that is not really related very much to the video produced by the camera but to basically record flight information. I would love to record my thoughts and actions as do canopy drills. Review of the recorded information, I feel, would be a tool to help me learn. I have a very small camera that has a clip on it. I attached a photo of it on a chest strap to show what I envision (someday). The video quality is not all that great but it would be okay to review with. I could talk to it and it would keep a general record of the direction I was facing, turns, or whatever.

However, it seems that no matter what the intended use or how small, most people have their minds made up from the beginning. It is if everyone thinks that you want wants to produce jump videos for Youtube, no matter what your plan might be. It has already been mentioned that in some cases the camera is just there for the ride and it is not influencing the jump. Where this is true, and the camera is not a physical encumbrance, I wonder if the attitude will ever soften up.

I know there is no answer to my query. But I like what someone suggested about taking a fresh look at the future situation.

Thing is, a camera on the cheststrap isn't going to help you much. It doesn't show you anything but the direction you're flying.

If you want to learn about controlling your canopy, get a buddy to video you from the ground. Better, get an experienced videoflyer to fly level with you (but not too close). That way, you also have a reference for how your canopy behaves during turns; how much altitude you lose and such.
THAT might give you the edge you're looking for.
And get a canopy course from a decent coach. Can't go wrong with those. Smile


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 8, 2012, 10:36 AM
Post #96 of 101 (1016 views)
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Re: [Baksteen] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Thing is, a camera on the cheststrap isn't going to help you much. It doesn't show you anything but the direction you're flying.

If you want to learn about controlling your canopy, get a buddy to video you from the ground. Better, get an experienced videoflyer to fly level with you (but not too close). That way, you also have a reference for how your canopy behaves during turns; how much altitude you lose and such.
THAT might give you the edge you're looking for.
And get a canopy course from a decent coach. Can't go wrong with those.

In reply to:

+1


Olmed  (B License)

Feb 8, 2012, 2:25 PM
Post #97 of 101 (966 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Starting off by breaking "safety-rules" and do everything your own way has no place in methodically learning.

In reply to:

...Unless maybe the Earth is NOT flat! ShockedWink



But seriously, I understand what you're saying, what YOU don't understand is what the guy I was refering to was saying.

If you'll review, it was not 'Im cool and screw the rules I'm jumping a camera'

It was basicly, 'How would a small camera the size of a Bic lighter cliped to the chest strap, negatively affect my decent under canopy'

~and it was a serious question, not a 'you're all idiots for thinking it will, I know more than you'

...it was a 'I know I don't understand much, tell me why I'm being told not to do this'


That's actually a pretty methodical way of going about understanding something...'Ok you say it's black, why is it black'

Unfortunately we often times seem to mis-hear the question as a statement, 'you're crazy, that's not black, I know more than you do'
... and jump all over the guy asking the question.Unimpressed


For example I could tear apart YOUR statements-
>>>Someone who believes a camera is going to make the difference has in my opinion missed the whole point.
Starting off by breaking "safety-rules" and do everything your own way has no place in methodically learning.<<<

~and twist them all up by showing 20 ways they are incorrect given certian situations of historical reference, and that YOU don't know what you don't know...etc.

~but I'm pretty sure you're not an idiot, you are making a 'general statement' that you believe to be correct, about a camera question.

However given the 'actual' context of the question asked regarding the camera and it use, in 'this' instance...a 'general' statement does little to address the question.

We all can do better than that, like BillVon said, 'it's unfortunate we sometimes lump people together' when they ask a question.

SOMETIMES it's a real question, or a 'real' misunderstanding and piling on with negative insulting responces is rather counter productive to advancing that understanding.

When ya hear hoofs don't ALWAYS think horses, there are a few Zebras in there sometimes! Wink

You never know in which direction the wind is going to blow in this forum.. Smile

I have no problem with your way of thinking.

I hope he found the answers he was looking for.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 8, 2012, 2:38 PM
Post #98 of 101 (957 views)
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Re: [Olmed] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

 
You never know in which direction the wind is going to blow in this forum..


In reply to:

True Dat!

Cool breeze is easrier to take than hot air is all I'm sain'...Cool


Lindenwood  (Student)

Jul 28, 2012, 3:20 AM
Post #99 of 101 (832 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

I just want to thank those of you who provided thoughtful replies explaining the dangers of even strapping along a camera "for the ride." It really changes my perspective on my eagerness to eventually be able to jump with a camera. Teaching physics and working with young people, I kmow,the "don't do it because you are too young and stupid " in rarely effective in getting people to do anything. So, I appreciate you guys laying out all the reasons, using supporting examples and especially testimony to help break down the often-perceived barrier "US old-timers vs you dumb newbies."

At 11 jumpmps in, reading this really did remove a lot of the eagerness to eventually jumpmps with a camera, even if it would only be "along for the ride."


JohnRich  (D License)

Jul 28, 2012, 7:23 AM
Post #100 of 101 (759 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just want to thank those of you who provided thoughtful replies explaining the dangers of even strapping along a camera "for the ride." It really changes my perspective on my eagerness to eventually be able to jump with a camera. Teaching physics and working with young people, I kmow,the "don't do it because you are too young and stupid " in rarely effective in getting people to do anything. So, I appreciate you guys laying out all the reasons, using supporting examples and especially testimony to help break down the often-perceived barrier "US old-timers vs you dumb newbies."

At 11 jumpmps in, reading this really did remove a lot of the eagerness to eventually jumpmps with a camera, even if it would only be "along for the ride."

Don't let the stories kill your eagerness to do it. You just have to do it at the right time when you have the right experience, and do it the right way. Be patient, watch and listen, learn, and then when you've got the jumps and are ready, you'll know how to do it as safely as possible.


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