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Additional reasons to not jump camera

 

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mpreil  (D 17822)

Feb 1, 2012, 1:59 PM
Post #26 of 101 (1657 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Sex Ed is a good analogy. There are still a LOT of people who think abstinence only is a good policy. We all know where that leads. The other extreme is equally unacceptable to the vast majority of people; I'm not about to give my kids lessons in how to use condoms and then turn them loose. The right answer is a combination of guidance and education, and access to the right means to help so that breaking the rules doesn't lead to death (AIDS, abortions, or skydivers killing themselves). I wouldn't call this "tacit approval", it's "I really don't approve but I don't want to see you mess up your life when a little advice could help you survive".

By the way, the FAA does not close down DZs, for breaking BSRs, you need to break the FARs, and even then they will fine the owner/operator and ground airplanes but they don't directly close DZs. And your facts on Hollister are badly garbled - you are mixing details from 2 or 3 separate events. Let's keep this discussion polite, as Bill started it, and not get into pointing fingers at specific DZs. I like your general points.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 1, 2012, 2:00 PM
Post #27 of 101 (1655 views)
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Re: [mpreil] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

>The right answer is a combination of guidance and education . . .

Agreed, as long as "when you are ready" is part of the mix.


PiLFy  (A License)

Feb 1, 2012, 2:14 PM
Post #28 of 101 (1646 views)
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Re: [mpreil] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

PM on the way.

Kids can play w/their other toys anywhere. They can only play w/their GoPros at the DZO's house, in plain view. DZOs set the house rules.

I could swear I read somewhere that the FAA shut down a DZ because they had reached a certain number of fatalities within a certain time frame. If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?


(This post was edited by PiLFy on Feb 1, 2012, 2:26 PM)


PiLFy  (A License)

Feb 1, 2012, 2:16 PM
Post #29 of 101 (1645 views)
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Re: [billvon] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed, that goes without saying. DZO's own the house, though. They set the house rules.


billeisele  (A 5643)

Feb 1, 2012, 5:37 PM
Post #30 of 101 (1604 views)
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Re: [billvon] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
USPA has a recommendation that you should have 200 jumps before you jump with a camera, and that is an excellent recommendation. Skydivers MAY have enough experience at 200 jumps to do camera (although most do not) - but before 200 jumps it's pretty much a guaranteed bad idea.

There are some other indications that it's a bad idea to jump with a camera, and you may want to reconsider your decision to jump one:

1) You can't stand up all your landings but you have learned how to fall to protect the camera.

2) A lot of your videos from doing POV bigway video are of excellent funnels. You are positive you're not contributing to them but they always seem to happen near you.

3) You spend more time trying to figure out where to put your camera during the exit jamup than where to put your body.

4) You can't really remember the dive until you look at your own video.

5) You post stills from your video to Facebook before packing or debriefing.

6) While in the pattern you fly with your camera pointed at your friend's canopy.

If any of these happen to you, you may want to reconsider jumping with a camera - especially when you're not doing video, you're just a participant on the dive.

7) Your video tells all - your track lasts 3 seconds - up the wind line, no wave-off, no air scan just pull, after opening the first thing you do is look up to stow your slider, then look at each toggle while fumbling to insert your fingers, then look down for the DZ, then your alti, etc. - good thing you have that special force field where nothing can hit you up there in the big ole sky


JohnRich  (D License)

Feb 1, 2012, 8:28 PM
Post #31 of 101 (1571 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I could swear I read somewhere that the FAA shut down a DZ because they had reached a certain number of fatalities within a certain time frame. If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

It doesn't matter how many fatalities a DZ has to the FAA, as long as they're following the FAR's. The FAA can only take such action if FAR's are broken. And then it's usually against a pilot or aircraft, and not the drop zone.

What closes drop zones is the expense of lawsuits, and fatalities can bring those on. But that's civil court action and finances, not federal government edicts.

Sorry for the thread drift. Get back on track now.

In reply to:
If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

The FAA might send an inspector to check things like reserve repacks, but since there is no FAR against anyone wearing a camera, no matter how inexperienced, they have no authority to take any action for that reason.


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Feb 1, 2012, 8:36 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 1, 2012, 11:20 PM
Post #32 of 101 (1540 views)
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Re: [billvon] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

http://vimeo.com/36065919

Two jumpers, 18 or 19 jumps each.
Turned away from boarding at one DZ because they had GoPro's. They went to another DZ.
They both rented rigs. Allegedly they were told the student rigs are not freefly friendly.
One guy wants to get the shot of his buddy, so he backflies it.
At least the main deployed at the correct altitude for a non-licensed jumper.Wink


Squeak  (E 1313)

Feb 2, 2012, 2:10 AM
Post #33 of 101 (1521 views)
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Re: [DSE] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://vimeo.com/36065919

Two jumpers, 18 or 19 jumps each.
Turned away from boarding at one DZ because they had GoPro's. They went to another DZ.
They both rented rigs. Allegedly they were told the student rigs are not freefly friendly.
One guy wants to get the shot of his buddy, so he backflies it.
At least the main deployed at the correct altitude for a non-licensed jumper.Wink

LaughLaughLaughLaughThat's awesome, I'm sure that main opening hurt like a MoFo SlySlySlySly
Stupid should be painfulCool


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 2, 2012, 7:44 AM
Post #34 of 101 (1467 views)
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Re: [DSE] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post


Awesome indeed, seeing the main canopy split apart like that. That was a plot twist that I didn't expect!

It shows how the stresses on a canopy can be really weird during an out of sequence opening --- although the result was extremely unusual. Maybe the canopy was also older with a weaker center cell.

The reserve was cool too -- one of those nice looking multi-colour Ravens like they used to build, that people might not at first recognize as a reserve. Pretty rare to see one of the old versions with the bikini slider.

That video could almost use a thread of its own.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Feb 2, 2012, 8:17 AM
Post #35 of 101 (1451 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:



The reserve was cool too -- one of those nice looking multi-colour Ravens like they used to build, that people might not at first recognize as a reserve. Pretty rare to see one of the old versions with the bikini slider.

That video could almost use a thread of its own.

I had to stop several people, or at least try to stop them, from buying matching main and reserves. They would ask why. I'd offer, "What if a canopy opens unexpectedly, malfunctions, and you then pull your cutaway handle. And it happens to be your reserve that opened but you couldn't tell the difference? You just detached your last potentially good canopy." They would go Shocked.

I don't see original ravens with bikini sliders because I choose not to pack them anymore. The bikini sliders were an "optional" refit but I wouldn't pack an original Raven without one.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 2, 2012, 8:57 AM
Post #36 of 101 (1427 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:



The reserve was cool too -- one of those nice looking multi-colour Ravens like they used to build, that people might not at first recognize as a reserve. Pretty rare to see one of the old versions with the bikini slider.

That video could almost use a thread of its own.

I had to stop several people, or at least try to stop them, from buying matching main and reserves. They would ask why. I'd offer, "What if a canopy opens unexpectedly, malfunctions, and you then pull your cutaway handle. And it happens to be your reserve that opened but you couldn't tell the difference? You just detached your last potentially good canopy." They would go Shocked.

I don't see original ravens with bikini sliders because I choose not to pack them anymore. The bikini sliders were an "optional" refit but I wouldn't pack an original Raven without one.


Ya know what...I never thought of that. Blush

ALL my rigs have matching main & reserves....Angelic


Doing demonstrations, it there is a malfunction we chop and the Show goes on, usually no one knows the difference.

I'm definitely gonna add a paragraph or two to our team handbook about making sure what's over your head prior to cutting away.


Thanks Terry, see...ya CAN teach an ole dog!


Abedy  (D 10153)

Feb 2, 2012, 9:40 AM
Post #37 of 101 (1408 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm definitely gonna add a paragraph or two to our team handbook about making sure what's over your head prior to cutting away.

'coz it's you: Just add a "paragraph" to the reserve slider simply consisting of "Plan B" TongueCoolAngelicLaughLaughLaugh


councilman24  (D 8631)

Feb 2, 2012, 9:52 AM
Post #38 of 101 (1401 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad to help.Crazy Cool

I know you want matching canopies and want the show to go on with a reserve but maybe you need to come up with something to tell them apart. Yes you can figure it out, but do you want to have to look at your harness with a high speed malfunction?

Three suggestions. Different color sliders comes to mind. Still you might not see the slider if it's a bag lock/streamer. Different color toggles. They might be different now but make them distinctive (you can get custom ones made) and make sure everyone KNOWS what they are for each. Maybe even custom/different color main risers. Probably the one thing you can see easiest.

And everyone might want to do identification drills in a hanging harness.Angelic Even the best jumpers might get a reserve over their head when they least expect it.

The current manufacturer of a popular pilot rig came to the DZ with a brand new Northern lite in 1981 or so. Both the cutaway and reserve handles were identical soft pillows. Being a smart assed newbie I asked how he could tell them apart. He said he knew which was which. Of course in those days which side was which was NOT standardized.Crazy Hmm, I actually have that rig downstairs.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 2, 2012, 10:37 AM
Post #39 of 101 (1379 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Three suggestions. Different color sliders comes to mind. Still you might not see the slider if it's a bag lock/streamer. Different color toggles. They might be different now but make them distinctive (you can get custom ones made) and make sure everyone KNOWS what they are for each. Maybe even custom/different color main risers. Probably the one thing you can see easiest.

In reply to:

Currently all three are in 'play'.

The reserve sliders have the coffee can size hole in the middle, the reserve risers are red with red toggles...main risers are blue with yellow toggles.

BUT as you mentioned, that may not be as obvious under stress as would be say, a single color reserve canopy...Hummm.

Definitely food for thought.

The thing that's got ME scratching my head is we've been having same color combos for almost 30 years...1st time I've been presented with a reason that might not be the best idea...and now it seems obvious. Crazy


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 2, 2012, 10:45 AM
Post #40 of 101 (1375 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

That video could almost use a thread of its own.

Now that it's derailed to talking about reserves, you're probably right.Laugh

Good video, yeah? It's also linked in the small camera incidents thread.


PiLFy  (A License)

Feb 2, 2012, 2:29 PM
Post #41 of 101 (1312 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, Thanks.


CarlBrady  (D 31793)

Feb 2, 2012, 8:04 PM
Post #42 of 101 (1209 views)
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Re: [billvon] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont suppose there is a way to get the 200 jump recommendation into an actual BSR? I dont know what goes into USPA making a BSR but could we make it happen?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 2, 2012, 8:32 PM
Post #43 of 101 (1196 views)
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Re: [DSE] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Two jumpers, 18 or 19 jumps each.
Turned away from boarding at one DZ because they had GoPro's. They went to another DZ.
They both rented rigs. Allegedly they were told the student rigs are not freefly friendly.
One guy wants to get the shot of his buddy, so he backflies it.

In this case, having zero skill and experience probably helped both of these jumpers. If Mr Backfly was able to stick the transition, and actually stay in his slot (backflying under his buddy) the main would be been in his buddies face.

It is cute how he tries to collapse the reserve slider. It's another example of newbies completely missing the point. Do he really expect to stow the slider? Seeing that he just had an accidental deployment that literally split a canopy in two, is the reserve slider really the first thing on your mind? How about a minunte to shit yourself and think about what just happened?

Not a clue, that one. Not even close.


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

Feb 2, 2012, 8:52 PM
Post #44 of 101 (1186 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How about a minute to shit yourself and think about what just happened?

I agree with you on the fact of him trying to stow his slider, but I think you gotta keep your cool while on the air, he can shit his pants all he wants on the ground and re-think about all the stupid things he did, but while in the air there is nothing safer than a clear calm mind, for oneself.


kd5xb  (Student)

Feb 3, 2012, 6:25 AM
Post #45 of 101 (1121 views)
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Re: [DSE] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://vimeo.com/36065919

Two jumpers, 18 or 19 jumps each.
Turned away from boarding at one DZ because they had GoPro's. They went to another DZ.
They both rented rigs. Allegedly they were told the student rigs are not freefly friendly.
One guy wants to get the shot of his buddy, so he backflies it.
At least the main deployed at the correct altitude for a non-licensed jumper.Wink

Am I reading this right? Two jumpers, EACH with less than 20 jumps, were allowed to do RW WITH EACH OTHER???

Let me change that to ATTEMPT RW...


(This post was edited by kd5xb on Feb 3, 2012, 6:30 AM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Feb 3, 2012, 6:25 AM
Post #46 of 101 (1120 views)
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Re: [CarlBrady] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I dont suppose there is a way to get the 200 jump recommendation into an actual BSR? I dont know what goes into USPA making a BSR but could we make it happen?

It's on the USPA agenda for the meeting in two weeks. You may want to let your regional director know your opinion as soon as possible.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Feb 3, 2012, 7:23 AM
Post #47 of 101 (1084 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

if it's going to move in that direction it could be best to make it THREE hundred jumps... no kidding

no denying that our sport is a Visual Paradise !! and that is part of what draws us to it... It is very easy to get caught up in todays world of technology and a now now now approach to just about anything...
The value and importance of a certain amount of delayed gratification has become a lost concept..

How about "amount of time" in the sport?? Does That factor in??

It takes a lot longer to develop aerial AND canopy skills, than folks like to admit..to get to that elusive "2nd Nature" that everyone talks about...in order to "add a camera(s) to the mix " and that's a fact...Unimpressed

For the rare few,, 200 jumps might do it but for most it takes alot longer. I hit it, by about 1,000 jumps and added video around 1,700 CrazyShocked hahaha.. Some had fewer jumps. some many more..

i like 300......Smile


jmy
a3914
d12122


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Feb 3, 2012, 7:24 AM
Post #48 of 101 (1084 views)
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Re: [billvon] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

7) You find that you're having to pull down a lot of the videos that you post on Facebook or Youtube because people are picking on what you did or making fun of it

Wendy P.


kallend  (D 23151)

Feb 3, 2012, 7:30 AM
Post #49 of 101 (1080 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I could swear I read somewhere that the FAA shut down a DZ because they had reached a certain number of fatalities within a certain time frame. If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

It doesn't matter how many fatalities a DZ has to the FAA, as long as they're following the FAR's. The FAA can only take such action if FAR's are broken. And then it's usually against a pilot or aircraft, and not the drop zone.

What closes drop zones is the expense of lawsuits, and fatalities can bring those on. But that's civil court action and finances, not federal government edicts.

Sorry for the thread drift. Get back on track now.

In reply to:
If three Newbs bounced wearing cameras at "X" DZ. Would that not bring the FAA down on them?

The FAA might send an inspector to check things like reserve repacks, but since there is no FAR against anyone wearing a camera, no matter how inexperienced, they have no authority to take any action for that reason.

The FAA has the catchall FARs Part 91.13 and 105.5 that they could use against the pilot and skydivers when nothing else fits.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Feb 4, 2012, 9:51 AM
Post #50 of 101 (983 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Additional reasons to not jump camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Cause it's freakin cold in Canada right now.

Meh, cold is just between your ears Tongue


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