Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
is argus AAD safe ?

 

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DiverMike  (C 40024)

Jan 24, 2012, 1:08 PM
Post #26 of 35 (1108 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] is argus AAD safe ? [In reply to] Can't Post

You are right to question my judgement as I continue to evaluate whether I am better off jumping without an AAD or continuing to use the Argus. I can jump an entire season for the amount it would cost to replace the Argus, and I am not firmly convinced that expenditure significantly reduces my risk. The Argus is better than nothing.

Do you still stand by your statement,"The manufacturer of the cutter has stated that it's not fit for its intended use."? There is nothing in the Sunpath letter that approaches that statement.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jan 24, 2012, 1:14 PM
Post #27 of 35 (1101 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] is argus AAD safe ? [In reply to] Can't Post

from the quote:
Quote:
Chemring Energetics UK refuses to modify any internal processes for this cutter as this
cutter is designed and intended for alternate purposes other than parachute automatic activation device

Intended for purposes other than AADs. Refused to test to the necessary standard.

Yeah, it's a cluster fuck. No doubt about it. It's too bad that customers got burned, and if I were such a customer I'd be pissed at myself for buying an unproven product, and I'd be pissed at my retailer if they weren't standing behind it. Ultimately, I'd be pissed at Aviacom for bringing a half-baked product to market.

But blindly insisting that nothing is wrong? Seems foolish to me.

_Am


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 24, 2012, 1:19 PM
Post #28 of 35 (1098 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] is argus AAD safe ? [In reply to] Can't Post

>though the whole PIA thing seems like a shroud of silence has been placed over
>the situation.

Uh, isn't that because they weren't in PIA? Why would you expect PIA to go out of their way to foster communication with a company that doesn't want to be part of them?

But in any case I don't think a "shroud of silence" was placed over Aviacom. There's been a lot of discussion between PIA members concerning Aviacom, which led to some de-approvals of the device (and even a few re-approvals.)

>Fact is, each AAD manufacturer had incidents when they were starting out and
>the results were very different.

Yes - mainly because their reactions had been very different. Had Airtec reacted to the first misfires the way Aviacom did, with a combination of denials and accusations of sabotage, they would not today be the #1 AAD manufacturer out there.

That being said I think that the Argus is a decent AAD, and I hope they fix their cutter problem and return it to the market.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jan 24, 2012, 2:40 PM
Post #29 of 35 (1065 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] is argus AAD safe ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

The manufacturer of the cutter has stated that it's not fit for its intended use. That really should be the end of the discussion right there.

The manufacturer of my rig has stated publicly that my main lift web is not fit for use in conjunction with a seat belt. I still use it that way.


spootch  (C License)

Jan 24, 2012, 2:49 PM
Post #30 of 35 (1061 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] is argus AAD safe ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

The manufacturer of the cutter has stated that it's not fit for its intended use. That really should be the end of the discussion right there.

Not pointed at you, but while were on the subject of "not intended use" wasn't one of the aads (cypres1?) using pressure sensors or something in thier units that were marked not for life saving devices?


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jan 24, 2012, 7:08 PM
Post #31 of 35 (1024 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] is argus AAD safe ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Mike,

Quote:
I consider you to be a trustworthy and knowledgable contributor on DZ.com.

Thank you. I have said before on this forum and will continue to say it: I am not always right/correct/ etc. I only hope that when I am incorrect, that I will step up and admit it.

I was going from memory of some of the various reports that I have read regarding the ARGUS AAD's.

As AndyMan posted:

Aviacom has been purchasing a modified commercial off the shelf, pyrotechnic reefing cable cutter from Chemring Energetics UK as a sub component for use with the ARGUS AAD assembly. Since these failures to cut in this life saving application have become public, Chemring Energetics UK has stopped sale of these cutters to Aviacom. As a result, Aviacom reports that they have approximately 200 post 2007 cutters available for both testing/verification and for fielded customer units. Further, Aviacom has no ability to institute higher or acceptable quality control practices as they do not anufacture the cutter and Chemring Energetics UK refuses to modify any internal processes for this cutter as this cutter is designed and intended for alternate purposes other than parachute automatic activation device

While it may have came from a source other than the cutter mfr, that is good enough for me.

If you do not agree, I respect your right to do.

As someone who manufactures things, I hope that I can have some control on just how they are used out there in the world.

Does that explain my thoughts sufficiently?

Best regards,

JerryBaumchen

PS) And it might be that Chemring Energetics UK saying that they knew/know nothing about their cutter being used in a skydiving AAD is akin to the piano player in the brothel saying, "I have no idea what goes on upstairs.'


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jan 24, 2012, 8:59 PM
Post #32 of 35 (1005 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] is argus AAD safe ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Your opinion is based on the lack of agreement with "MY" opinion and I respect that, but don't just tell me I'm wrong because you disagree. Fact is, there were shady circumstances surround EVERY SINGLE Argus failure/incident.


There have been 5 major incidents in 4 different countries that where well documented. If you can if you can read all the data on problems Argus has had since 2006 and still defend them then you are living in la, la land.

Sparky

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4083611#4083611

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4145928#4145928


Ron

Jan 25, 2012, 8:45 AM
Post #33 of 35 (949 views)
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Re: [J0nathan] is argus AAD safe ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
i saw that argus aad s are quite cheap, are they safe to use ?

I know you didn't intend it, but:

"you fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line!"

The third is asking if an one brand of AAD is safer than another. Its like asking 'is Ford better than Chevy'.

Truth be told most AAD's are close enough to the same to not really matter which one you buy. They are all back up devices and if they fire you were most likely dead by your own actions/lack of action already. So they are a last second hail mary pass.

That being said, of the three major brands argued about one is no longer being made.

So while all three have had issues in the past, to me the fact that one is no longer in business is enough to remove it from consideration for me. Add in that some places and manufacturers will not allow them and it puts the nail in them for me.

My old CYPRES timed out and I wanted another AAD. I did some research and asked around.... I bought a CYPRES 2. The additional cost was not important, and when they were all stacked together I thought the C2 had a slight edge.


tsisson  (D 19283)

Mar 4, 2012, 6:21 AM
Post #34 of 35 (837 views)
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Re: [Ron] is argus AAD safe ? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:

Truth be told most AAD's are close enough to the same to not really matter which one you buy. They are all back up devices and if they fire you were most likely dead by your own actions/lack of action already. So they are a last second hail mary pass.

Amen. As long as the customer realizes there may be future issues with riggers/container mfgs/dzo's/parts availability - servicing then I say go for it. I'm considering one for my Racer, as my Cypres I timed out 3-4 years ago and I'm more actively jumping once again.

Buyer beware...


Unstable  (D 28930)

Mar 5, 2012, 7:26 AM
Post #35 of 35 (738 views)
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Re: [tsisson] is argus AAD safe ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Amen. As long as the customer realizes there may be future issues with riggers/container mfgs/dzo's/parts availability - servicing then I say go for it. I'm considering one for my Racer, as my Cypres I timed out 3-4 years ago and I'm more actively jumping once again.

+1, well said friend. I jump an argus in my 2K3 with 2011 cutters, and I am doing so until I have $ to invest in something else. My logic is based on a choise between jumping the argus or jumping no aad at all, in which case I believe jumping the argus is safer. This thought process is based on a simple comparison of lives saved versus alleged malfunctions (I tend to think that some of the circumstances around the failure reports are fishy, but that is neither here nor there).


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