Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
"Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!"

 

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airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 21, 2012, 10:37 PM
Post #126 of 175 (1106 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't worry, just leave the thinking to me.

In reply to:





Will do...you just leave the skydiving to skydivers. WinkCool


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jan 21, 2012, 11:25 PM)


taylor.freefall  (A 52570)

Jan 21, 2012, 11:20 PM
Post #127 of 175 (1100 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't worry, just leave the thinking to me.


Will do...you just leave the skydiving to skydivers. WinkCool

WOOooooooo, around the world and slap back.. girlfriend..


taylor.freefall  (A 52570)

Jan 21, 2012, 11:54 PM
Post #128 of 175 (1093 views)
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Re: [skybytch] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The bottom line is there needs to be an "industry standard" - only for the sole purpose of solving these ridiculous (self righteous) arguments about "who should" and "who.. should not"!

USPA's "recommendations", combined with applicable FAR's, already are the "industry standard" for skydiving in the US.

Well industry standard was meant more as a
"legal" requirement than a recommendation.
Recommendations are worthless - you know that people can get around that no problem. A legal requirement not so much.
Surely there can be a way of new jumpers getting in to camera that can satisfy all of us? And wouldn't that be through doing a short camera course?
It sure would make way more sense for us all to "try" and agree to something rather than argue over every little detail - there has to be a "middle ground".
Newly licensed jumpers are bound to want to jump camera as they're excited about their new hobby and want to share/document it as much as possible (totally understandable) - yet at the same time they don't want to piss off other jumpers by making skydiving more dangerous than it already is (totally understandable).
I don't know, nor have ever met, and don't want to kiss the ass of DSE, but he certainly seems to be the forwarding person when it comes to skydiving, and I am certainly (after this thread) going to write to USPA and recommend a requirement for jumping camera - then there can be absolutely no arguing (if they agree to it, of course).


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 22, 2012, 1:46 AM
Post #129 of 175 (1074 views)
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Re: [taylor.freefall] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well industry standard was meant more as a
"legal" requirement than a recommendation.
That's not correct. "Industry standard" was developed through research and development AND trial and error. It was "meant" to help keep us as safe as possible.

In reply to:
Recommendations are worthless - you know that people can get around that no problem. A legal requirement not so much.
People can get around either...if they want to.
Recommendations are worthless only to those who choose to ignore them.

In reply to:
Surely there can be a way of new jumpers getting in to camera that can satisfy all of us? And wouldn't that be through doing a short camera course?
We already have a way for getting into camera jumping. It's right there in the USPA recommendations. Your point must hinge on the "satisfy all of us" part of your statement.

You must realize that we are not attempting to "satisfy" anyone with all those recommendations. It's all about safety...not anyone's personal satisfaction. Some will not be "satisfied" with skydiving safely. Hence all the arguments about ignoring the recommendations.

Personally, if they choose to ignore safety common sense, I do not want to be in the sky with them. They may wind up hurting me right along side of themselves.


In reply to:
It sure would make way more sense for us all to "try" and agree to something rather than argue over every little detail - there has to be a "middle ground".
True enough! And there already IS a middle ground...USPA recommendations! It's funny how those that choose to ignore safety common sense are the ones arguing...against it.
Or, to put it another way, those that are arguing against USPA recommendations are the ones that are choosing to ignore safety common sense.


In reply to:
Newly licensed jumpers are bound to want to jump camera as they're excited about their new hobby and want to share/document it as much as possible (totally understandable) - yet at the same time they don't want to piss off other jumpers by making skydiving more dangerous than it already is (totally understandable).

Yes! New jumpers ARE excited and excitable.

However, if they are thinking that the only reason they do not want to make skydiving more dangerous is because they don't want to piss off other jumpers, they are missing the point entirely.

If young jumpers are making skydiving more dangerous than it already is, they have more to worry about than pissing off other jumpers.

Again, the recommendations can, and do, help them progress while maintaining some modicum of safety.

In reply to:
I am certainly (after this thread) going to write to USPA and recommend a requirement for jumping camera - then there can be absolutely no arguing (if they agree to it, of course).

Now THAT'S positive thinking!
I'm sure it's already been discussed and there may or may not be plans in the works to do just that. Best bet is to call them first. Start with your Regional Director.

Then all we have to do is hope that people don't find a way around THAT requirement, too.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 22, 2012, 1:53 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 22, 2012, 5:19 AM
Post #130 of 175 (1055 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You mean DSE's thread of non-fatal incidents of people who obviously have difficulty walking and chewing gum at the same time trying to blame a camera for their own stupidity.

I'm gald you mentioned this aspect.

Consider that all of the jumpers in DSE's thread were licensed jumpers. Every one of them was smart enough to get through AFF and earn (at a min.) an A license. However, each one of them was not smart enough to jump a GoPro without incident (or not smart enough to realize the limitations of their experience at the time of the incident). What this tells us is that being smart enough to earn an A license is not the same as being smart emough to jump a camera, or smart enough to have good judgement with regards as to went to start jumping a camera.

With this in mind, why would you support a regulatory environment where it's OK for anyone with an A licesne to jump a camera?

Beyond that, let me ask you another question, what benefit does it bring to the community to allow newbies to jump cameras? What would the reason be for allowing something to occur that the most experienced camera flyers in the sport feel is inappropriate?

Let's keep in mind a few thoughts about the BOD, with the first one being that not all of them are camera flyers, have camera flying experience, and some of them don't even jump anymore. While they are the jumpers with the time and money to donate towards being on the BOD, it does not mean that they are the be-all, end-all, experts on all aspects of the sport.

The other thought about the BOD is that their actions are not always 'pure'. I'm not suggesting corruption or self-interest, what I'm suggesting is that they have a limited amount of time and resources, and that creating a BSR isn't fast or easy. As we have seen in the past, the BOD has gotten themselves into a legal jam or two, and they end up costing the USPA countless dollars (countless because the out-of-court settlements are always sealed). The end result of that it they have to play their actions vey carefully, espcailly when wording regulations that may very well become part of a lawsuit.

Pointing to the actions or position of the BOD is not an effective argument against this. In a 'perfect world', the BOD would act very differently on a number of issues, but seeing as this is far from a 'perfect world' you get what we have now.

Overall, I think the biggets mistake you're making is not deffering to the experts. Experience is everything, and those 'in the know' seem to frown upon the idea that a small-format camera makes it OK for an 'anything goes' policy with regards to who can jump them. If there's one thing I learned from skydiving that I apply to my non-jumping life, it's to 'know your role'. In some instances, I am the expert, and the best man for the job. In other instances, there are more qualified candidates for whatever the job may be, and my best contribution to the success of the project is to support those people getting the job done.


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 22, 2012, 5:32 AM
Post #131 of 175 (1051 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

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Don't worry, just leave the thinking to me.

In reply to:





Will do...you just leave the skydiving to skydivers. WinkCool

LaughLaughLaugh


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 22, 2012, 5:47 AM
Post #132 of 175 (1043 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Holy Sangi-Sh*t...Unsure I may be naive, but it's amazing to me that someone could be so foolish. W/all the information that's readily available on this site. How can you possibly be so dense???

Think you're ten feet tall & bullet proof? Think all the old hands are just overly conservative Wimps? I strongly urge you to test your superiority by reaching out to this guy: http://www.dropzone.com/....cgi?username=Sangi; He has plenty of time to answer your PMs. Almost four months after hammering in, he still can't walk or even feel his legs. We remain hopeful that one day he will walk again. If you don't reach out to him, & have an honest exchange of ideas? You're an absolute idiot, & already crippled or dead. Please at least have the decency to only kill yourself when you pound in.

Edit to add: Why not? I'll even make it easier for you. Read this thread from beginning to end: http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25; Sound familiar???


(This post was edited by PiLFy on Jan 22, 2012, 8:15 AM)


Skyper

Jan 22, 2012, 5:57 AM
Post #133 of 175 (1040 views)
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Re: [taylor.freefall] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

it's interesting how the need for showing off can suppress the need for survival...

I don't know what kind of "research" have you been doing, but only few months ago at Hollister a woman was killed by the cam. Of course you'll say it was not a cam it was a low turn... The fact was she got a cam on her head and less than 200 formation jumps.

If everything goes fine you can even mount a Santa on your helmet and jump with it. But when the s* hits the fan and you have to ACT on it - you'll face a deadly situation you've never been dreamed of... there you'll go with your Santa and your FB-friends eager to see your cool video.


skydivecat  (C License)

Jan 22, 2012, 7:51 AM
Post #134 of 175 (1009 views)
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Re: [davelepka] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Well put. I'm a noob with no experience, and I have a hard time with a lot of the arguments here. Do I think it would be cool to jump with a camera and have more videos of my jumps, absolutely! Do I want to learn to free fly and do a bunch of other crazy things, hell yeah! Am I ready for all that?

According to the guys who took me thru AFF and taught me how to fly, NO. And their opinion on that matters way more to me than doing what I think would be fun. They tell me to work more on this or that first, that is what I am going to do. They aren't trying to hold me back, THEY ARE TRYING TO MAKE ME BETTER. My opinion ceases to matter compared to theirs in skydiving related things. Even if you DO have mad skills and are way above the rest LISTEN to the people who brought safely to where you are at. Skydiving doesn't have a very forgiving margin for error, so even if they are being conservative with their advice, they are simply trying to save your life.


sacex250

Jan 22, 2012, 8:23 AM
Post #135 of 175 (990 views)
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Re: [Skyper] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
it's interesting how the need for showing off can suppress the need for survival...

I don't know what kind of "research" have you been doing, but only few months ago at Hollister a woman was killed by the cam. Of course you'll say it was not a cam it was a low turn... The fact was she got a cam on her head and less than 200 formation jumps.

If everything goes fine you can even mount a Santa on your helmet and jump with it. But when the s* hits the fan and you have to ACT on it - you'll face a deadly situation you've never been dreamed of... there you'll go with your Santa and your FB-friends eager to see your cool video.

The incident at Hollister last year was not a fatality, and didn't have anything to do with the camera.

The fatality was a different jumper three years ago, also didn't have anything to do with a camera.


sacex250

Jan 22, 2012, 8:40 AM
Post #136 of 175 (983 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Holy Sangi-Sh*t...Unsure I may be naive, but it's amazing to me that someone could be so foolish. W/all the information that's readily available on this site. How can you possibly be so dense???

Think you're ten feet tall & bullet proof? Think all the old hands are just overly conservative Wimps? I strongly urge you to test your superiority by reaching out to this guy: http://www.dropzone.com/....cgi?username=Sangi; He has plenty of time to answer your PMs. Almost four months after hammering in, he still can't walk or even feel his legs. We remain hopeful that one day he will walk again. If you don't reach out to him, & have an honest exchange of ideas? You're an absolute idiot, & already crippled or dead. Please at least have the decency to only kill yourself when you pound in.

Edit to add: Why not? I'll even make it easier for you. Read this thread from beginning to end: http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25; Sound familiar???

I'm fully aware of the history surrounding Sangi, and if you're somehow under the delusion that rapidly downsizing and swooping as Sangi did compares to wearing a camera then it just goes to show how irrational your argument is. There's no comparison between the two.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 22, 2012, 8:45 AM
Post #137 of 175 (978 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:


LaughLaugh You just keep thinkin' Butch...that's what you're good at. Wink

Okay, does this one verifiable incident justify banning C-License holders from using cameras?

Does it justify requiring camera flyers to use an RSL?

Don't worry, just leave the thinking to me.
@ sacex250... By now, you must be feeling like you're being targeted and picked on. Keep in mind, these are well intentioned, experienced people responding to your post. Maybe you should ask yourself why so many experienced jumpers are on the attack here... Shocked

And by the way, there is a really good way for any Newb to get good video of his/her jump. Just walk up to an experienced camera flyer and ask them along on your next jump. Most will go out of their way to accomodate you. And, the video will be of a quality that you'll be proud to show your friends on FB. Cool


skydiver604

Jan 22, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #138 of 175 (972 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm fully aware of the history surrounding Sangi, and if you're somehow under the delusion that rapidly downsizing and swooping as Sangi did compares to wearing a camera then it just goes to show how irrational your argument is. There's no comparison between the two.

There may be no comparison between the two but when a jump goes for shit the end result can be the same or comparable or worse UnsureFrownUnimpressed


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 22, 2012, 8:58 AM
Post #139 of 175 (967 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm fully aware of the history surrounding Sangi, and if you're somehow under the delusion that rapidly downsizing and swooping as Sangi did compares to wearing a camera then it just goes to show how irrational your argument is. There's no comparison between the two.

Unsure Well then... I guess this attachment is for you. Do you have a Dauber?


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on Jan 22, 2012, 9:09 AM)
Attachments: Bounce_Bingo.gif (29.5 KB)


sacex250

Jan 22, 2012, 9:02 AM
Post #140 of 175 (962 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm fully aware of the history surrounding Sangi, and if you're somehow under the delusion that rapidly downsizing and swooping as Sangi did compares to wearing a camera then it just goes to show how irrational your argument is. There's no comparison between the two.

Unsure Well then... I guess this attachment is for you. Do you have a Dauber?

Oh the irony! Your Bounce Bingo card has crashed!


(This post was edited by sacex250 on Jan 22, 2012, 9:03 AM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 22, 2012, 9:11 AM
Post #141 of 175 (955 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unsure Well then... I guess this attachment is for you. Do you have a Dauber?

Oh the irony! Your Bounce Bingo card has crashed!
Try again... Cool


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 22, 2012, 9:14 AM
Post #142 of 175 (951 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if you're somehow under the delusion that rapidly downsizing and swooping as Sangi did compares to wearing a camera then it just goes to show how irrational your argument is. There's no comparison between the two.

It is equally delusional to ignore the similarities in the thought process that leads you to think they're different.Crazy


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 22, 2012, 9:32 AM
Post #143 of 175 (932 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

"I'm fully aware of the history surrounding Sangi, and if you're somehow under the delusion that rapidly downsizing and swooping as Sangi did compares to wearing a camera then it just goes to show how irrational your argument is. There's no comparison between the two."

You're fully aware that Sangi didn't listen to a mountain of good advice until it was too late. Yet, you're still here talking smack w/the same thick skull & 'tude? I call Bullshit. You're either the Troll you've been accused of being in earlier threads. Or, you really are that stupid. Either way, you're not worth wasting one more minute on. Where do you jump, in Utah? Good, I'm nowhere near you. Go ahead & kill yourself. DO NOT take anyone else w/you.


sacex250

Jan 22, 2012, 9:32 AM
Post #144 of 175 (928 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Unsure Well then... I guess this attachment is for you. Do you have a Dauber?

Oh the irony! Your Bounce Bingo card has crashed!

Try again... Cool
Nope, didn't even come close to dying.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jan 22, 2012, 9:37 AM
Post #145 of 175 (925 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I'm fully aware of the history surrounding Sangi, and if you're somehow under the delusion that rapidly downsizing and swooping as Sangi did compares to wearing a camera then it just goes to show how irrational your argument is. There's no comparison between the two.

Really?
No comparison?

Don't jump a camera too soon, you can do it if everything goes right, but the distraction may keep you from realizing what is happening and if something goes wrong, you may not have the experience to handle it.

Don't downsize too soon, you can do it if everything goes right, but if something goes wrong, you may not have the experience to handle it.

Don't jump a wingsuit too soon, you can do it if everything goes right, but the distraction may prevent you from realizing something is wrong (like your legstraps aren't on) and if something goes wrong, you may not have the experience to handle it.

No comparison, huh??

I always notice the two sides in these arguments. The only ones arguing that the recommendations are too restrictive are those who don't meet them.

"You should let me jump a camera, jump numbers don't really measure how good someone is, even though I don't have the numbers."

Have you ever heard of the phrase "You don't know what you don't know"?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 22, 2012, 9:46 AM
Post #146 of 175 (917 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

>if you're somehow under the delusion that rapidly downsizing and swooping as Sangi
>did compares to wearing a camera then it just goes to show how irrational your
>argument is. There's no comparison between the two.

There sure is. They both contain one very important component that is identical in both cases - a skydiver who thinks "I'm shit hot, and all that canopy nazi/camera nazi advice doesn't apply to me. I'm special."

A lot of your arguments could be taken verbatim from Sangi's old threads, just replacing "canopy" with "camera."


sacex250

Jan 22, 2012, 9:48 AM
Post #147 of 175 (915 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"I'm fully aware of the history surrounding Sangi, and if you're somehow under the delusion that rapidly downsizing and swooping as Sangi did compares to wearing a camera then it just goes to show how irrational your argument is. There's no comparison between the two."

You're fully aware that Sangi didn't listen to a mountain of good advice until it was too late. Yet, you're still here talking smack w/the same thick skull & 'tude? I call Bullshit. You're either the Troll you've been accused of being in earlier threads. Or, you really are that stupid. Either way, you're not worth wasting one more minute on. Where do you jump, in Utah? Good, I'm nowhere near you. Go ahead & kill yourself. DO NOT take anyone else w/you.

In case you haven't noticed, and you haven't, I'm the one arguing on behalf of the BSR as written. What I'm arguing against is the mob rule where jumpers have taken a "recommendation" in the BSR and turned it into an absolute restriction to arrogantly harass and ridicule newer jumpers who aren't actually doing anything wrong.


yoink

Jan 22, 2012, 9:49 AM
Post #148 of 175 (913 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Unsure Well then... I guess this attachment is for you. Do you have a Dauber?

Oh the irony! Your Bounce Bingo card has crashed!

Try again... Cool

Nope, didn't even come close to dying.
How about posting your name and DZ so that people can make an informed choice not to jump with you if that's what they want? You can go and be the Skygod, and they can avoid you, problem solved.

Of course, if you're just trolling, or if you know that you wouldn't say half the dumb crap you come out with to peoples faces at your dz, by all means, keep schtum.


The Sangi thread is an exact parallel. Ignore the camera vs canopy bit - it's the attitude of 'I know everything' that makes people draw the conclusion that you're on the same path.
I won the bounce bingo for him - who's going to do it for you, I wonder?


This isn't about harassing newbies - if you're going to come onto a public forum, full of people with far more experience and knowledge than you seem to posess, and then make blanket statements that are plain wrong you can expect to be called on them, because one day some gung-ho newbie may well read your WRONG statements and use them as justification for doing whatever they want...

"Oh - I saw on the internet that there has never been a fatality attributed to small format cameras, so I'll probably be fine putting one on at 50 jumps. My skills are way ahead of the curve."

Then they take out another jumper because they're in over their head without realising it, based on bad information.

That's what it comes down to for me - posts here stick around, and it's amazing what people dig up as justifications for doing stupid shit, and unfortunately for every 1 post saying 'you'll probably be fine' it seems to take about 50 pointing out how dumb it really is to make any impact on the future newbie.

I don't get why you wouldn't put your name on your posts - if you're so certain of your conclusions, and confident in your research...


(This post was edited by yoink on Jan 22, 2012, 12:56 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 22, 2012, 10:04 AM
Post #149 of 175 (906 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

>Okay, does this one verifiable incident justify banning C-License holders from using cameras?

No, but these incidents might:

===============
December 17, 2009. 30 jumps. Flew into fence due to camera distractions. Minor injuries.

January 1 2010. Low time jumper; jumps unknown. Landed off due to camera distractions. Minor injuries.

February 2010. Two jumpers, less than 100 jumps each. Collision during opening due to aiming camera at canopy. Minor injuries, equipment damage.

April 19 2010. 200 jumps. Wingsuit AND camera. Flew into side of tent.

June 22, 2010. 200 jumps. Distracted by camera, landed against pattern. Minor injuries.

2010. 133 jumps. Jumper landed safely. Wind came up and she didn't deal with her canopy because she was distracted by her camera. Broken wrist.

July 4, 2010. 112 jumps. Didn't flare due to camera distraction. Likely broken wrists.

Oct 8 2011. 31 jumps. Camera fouled in lines. Sprained wrist.

Nov 6 2011. 110 jumps. AAD fire due to camera distraction. Hard landing on roof.
===============

These, of course, are just the serious incidents/injuries. There's another dozen of cutaways, lost altitude awareness, forgotten chest straps and altimeters, bad spots etc caused by lowtimers with small format cameras.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 22, 2012, 10:18 AM
Post #150 of 175 (894 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

>What I'm arguing against is the mob rule where jumpers have taken a
>"recommendation" in the BSR and turned it into an absolute restriction to arrogantly
>harass and ridicule newer jumpers who aren't actually doing anything wrong.

1 friend's funeral avoided is worth 100 Internet newbs who take offense at advice.


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