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"Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!"

 

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skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 20, 2012, 6:24 AM
Post #76 of 175 (1450 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

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I think cameras should be banned from the sport. Now, youll have to excuse me, were about to do another 30 point 6 way. Smile


... from 3 grand.


Out of a single 182...

In balloon suits.

..... with my, um, girl friend.... um.. Morgan Fairchild! Yah, that's the ticket. At night!!!!


JerseyShawn  (Student)

Jan 20, 2012, 9:21 AM
Post #77 of 175 (1380 views)
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Re: [stratostar] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

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Where did I say I would lie? I said I wouldn't bring it up, not pointing it out is not telling a lie. I also never said we don't use radios, did I. Maybe you should try reading first and not try putting words in my statements and calling me lier.

What I said is in regards to radio, is I don't teach it class because the students retain the canopy course better. In a lot of years I have seen a great deal of people who show up thinking they can half ass it because "you'll be talking us down right". I want my students to know WTF to do with out a radio, it works maybe you should try it.

Quote:
What are you going to tell your students the camera is when you strap the radio to them?

The design I'm thinking about and have tried to explain, is where the camera is hidden in the pillow that the radio is strapped too, and only the lens will be poking out.... I also said I have not made one yet. I think it is easy to build a chest mount pillow camera holder, the pillow are full of foam, we currently use them for the radio and it would keep the thing hidden from view inside the pillow.

As I said I would like to build one and test it on my tandem students first to see how many of them notice it. I think if it's done right not that big of a deal. The biggest concern is geeking the damn thing for a solo student.

My apologies, I didn't see the post where you stated the radio is along with the camera on the chest mount. Hence my questions on how you would pull it off.

Wasn't calling you a liar, yet, since you haven't deceived anyone yet by not disclosing there's a camera along with the radio. With the art of deception though there is a lie (not fully disclosing all the gear you strap to someone or hiding something from someone is a lie).

I don't know about other students, but I would of figured out there was a camera in there. My first jump I asked about everything that was attached to me, just being curious in nature and always wanting to know how things work.

Good luck with your project. Be safe.


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 20, 2012, 10:04 AM
Post #78 of 175 (1361 views)
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Re: [JerseyShawn] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

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(not fully disclosing all the gear you strap to someone or hiding something from someone is a lie).

No more like when I take my 4yr old to play group and one of the mom's who don't use a cover when breast feeding has her tit hanging out and a baby nursing, if you never point out that fact that there is an exposed tit, the kid never asks, it's all normal activity to them and they go on about their business of playing.

The only reason to not point out a small camera is the geek factor, the reason the camera would be hidden in a chest mount pillow is too reduce any and all snag hazards & so other assholes can't claim it's a snag hazard and we're going to start killing FJ students because they have a camera strapped to them and calling up USPA and bitching, not to lie or be deceptive to students. If you tested in real world most FJS's would be clueless of the small round lens poking through the cloth of the pillow IMHO.

As I said my only concern with such an idea is how to keep morons from geek'n the damn thing, we already have enough dipshits flying around the skies with their head up their asses, hence the not making big deal of it or stating "here is your radio and camera package, make sure you look here and talk to the video on the way down, have a good jump!

Now, if and when I build one and test it on non students or place one on a tandem (like when I get current with a experienced jumper, first) I might find out the point of view sucks ass and change my mind, but right now, I could see such a system working and being safe, at lease a hell of a lot safer then most the clowns currently running around with them strapped to their heads at 50 jumps or less like we see all over youtube and posted here. And quite frankly, I'm surprised no one is not already doing it and I would not be surprised to learn someone else hasn't thought of the same application & or not tried it or going to try it.

Besides that, what about all the talk about pushing the limits and those who did have got us to where we are today..... It's the same thing, only different....Tongue

Hell, I remember everyone up in arms because the DZO was going to let me start jumping my own, owned paracommander on my second jump, ya had to have 50 t-10 jumps because it's too high performance!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 20, 2012, 10:20 AM
Post #79 of 175 (1350 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

>If you are teaching your students to depend on radio, it's a mistake. Pure and
>simple. Stratostar has it right.

Agreed. Same is true if you teach them to depend on their AAD, RSL or instructor.

That being said, it's also a mistake to not tell them that their instructors will be there, or what an AAD is, or what the RSL is. NOT having that information could screw them up. (Rarely but it can happen.)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 20, 2012, 2:18 PM
Post #80 of 175 (1297 views)
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Re: [billvon] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That being said, it's also a mistake to not tell them that their instructors will be there, or .what an AAD is, or what the RSL is. NOT having that information could screw them up. (Rarely but it can happen.)

...which is why I so strongly disagree with the K.I.S.S. method of training.


JerseyShawn  (Student)

Jan 20, 2012, 3:10 PM
Post #81 of 175 (1275 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

What's the k.i.s.s. method of training?


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 20, 2012, 3:13 PM
Post #82 of 175 (1274 views)
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Re: [JerseyShawn] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Keep it simple stupid!


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Jan 20, 2012, 3:32 PM
Post #83 of 175 (1265 views)
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"Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

My dropzone enforces this rec very strictly. i always questioned the difference but when i finally was able to jump one i had an excess of a few minutes of film because i forgot it was on my helmet haha. i agree jumpers right off student status should not be allowed, but maybe there should be a sign off with the S&TA? then it could be a case by case basis. then if someone with less than 200 jumps was ready to get it they could but if someone who had more than 200 jumps but was still all over the place with skills could be told to wait.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 20, 2012, 4:14 PM
Post #84 of 175 (1251 views)
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Re: [waveoff5500] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

>then if someone with less than 200 jumps was ready to get it they could but if
>someone who had more than 200 jumps but was still all over the place with skills could
>be told to wait.

Someone with less than 200 jumps is not ready to do camera; someone with more than 200 jumps MAY be.


taylor.freefall  (A 52570)

Jan 20, 2012, 5:46 PM
Post #85 of 175 (1232 views)
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Re: [billvon] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>then if someone with less than 200 jumps was ready to get it they could but if
>someone who had more than 200 jumps but was still all over the place with skills could
>be told to wait.

Someone with less than 200 jumps is not ready to do camera; someone with more than 200 jumps MAY be.

I think what waveoff is saying is - how can 200 jumps be a definitive number when, in reality, that's an impossible thing to judge and can only really be judged by somebody with with tons of experience both in skydiving, and skydiving with camera.
DSE does a wingsuit course - wouldn't it be a good idea that there's a camera course too?
I know what your'e saying when you say somebody with over 200 jumps MAYBE able to jump camera - but it's crazy to think that someone has 199 absolutely can not, but somebody with 200 might be able to.
I think it's something that you can't put a number on - it has to be a case by case basis, there's no other way - of course you could say you have to have a 200 jump minimum to even be able to take the course and then do it on a case by case basis - which I think is actually what you mean to be honest, or kind of any way.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 20, 2012, 5:50 PM
Post #86 of 175 (1230 views)
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Re: [taylor.freefall] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>then if someone with less than 200 jumps was ready to get it they could but if
>someone who had more than 200 jumps but was still all over the place with skills could
>be told to wait.

Someone with less than 200 jumps is not ready to do camera; someone with more than 200 jumps MAY be.

DSE does a camera course too.Wink

I think what waveoff is saying is - how can 200 jumps be a definitive number when, in reality, that's an impossible thing to judge and can only really be judged by somebody with with tons of experience both in skydiving, and skydiving with camera.
DSE does a wingsuit course - wouldn't it be a good idea that there's a camera course too?
I know what your'e saying when you say somebody with over 200 jumps MAYBE able to jump camera - but it's crazy to think that someone has 199 absolutely can not, but somebody with 200 might be able to.
I think it's something that you can't put a number on - it has to be a case by case basis, there's no other way - of course you could say you have to have a 200 jump minimum to even be able to take the course and then do it on a case by case basis - which I think is actually what you mean to be honest, or kind of any way.


taylor.freefall  (A 52570)

Jan 20, 2012, 5:55 PM
Post #87 of 175 (1226 views)
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Re: [DSE] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
>then if someone with less than 200 jumps was ready to get it they could but if
>someone who had more than 200 jumps but was still all over the place with skills could
>be told to wait.

Someone with less than 200 jumps is not ready to do camera; someone with more than 200 jumps MAY be.

I didn't know that?! For newbies too?

DSE does a camera course too.Wink

I think what waveoff is saying is - how can 200 jumps be a definitive number when, in reality, that's an impossible thing to judge and can only really be judged by somebody with with tons of experience both in skydiving, and skydiving with camera.
DSE does a wingsuit course - wouldn't it be a good idea that there's a camera course too?
I know what your'e saying when you say somebody with over 200 jumps MAYBE able to jump camera - but it's crazy to think that someone has 199 absolutely can not, but somebody with 200 might be able to.
I think it's something that you can't put a number on - it has to be a case by case basis, there's no other way - of course you could say you have to have a 200 jump minimum to even be able to take the course and then do it on a case by case basis - which I think is actually what you mean to be honest, or kind of any way.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 20, 2012, 6:46 PM
Post #88 of 175 (1206 views)
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Re: [taylor.freefall] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think what waveoff is saying is - how can 200 jumps be a definitive number when, in reality, that's an impossible thing to judge and can only really be judged by somebody with with tons of experience both in skydiving, and skydiving with camera.

....I think it's something that you can't put a number on - it has to be a case by case basis, ...

First, re-read the SIM. You're out-of-date.

Here's' my take.
We have the recommendations for a reason.

c. A USPA C license is recommended.
d. The jumper should have made at least 50 recent
jumps on the same parachute equipment to be
used for camera flying
,
...and more

Note we no longer have a number on it.

What we DO have is young jumpers thinking they have Mad Skillz violating those recommendations because, as you detail, it's being left up to any Tom, Dick and Harry that elects to ignore those recommendations.

If everybody adhered to the recommendations, ALL the recommendations (check the SIM), we wouldn't be having these problems to the extent we are.

Take note, the recommendations are a minimum, not a cut-and-dry line in the sand....just as Bill pointed out. Having a C license does not automatically qualify you for camera flying....just as having Mad Skillz doesn't.

Just because you can steer a car around the block doesn't mean that I'm going to put you into a Testarossa.


Just this weekend, I had a jumper with just under 400 jumps take his camera out for the first time...unbeknownst to me.

When I found out about it, I asked him, "What are you going to do if your suspension lines get caught up on your camera. He says, "Pull the cutaway chin strap!". Then I asked, "What if you can't get the cutaway chin strap undone?"
Unsure
He had no clue. Didn't even realize it was a horseshoe mal.

You're right. Jump numbers are meaningless if you don't know what you are doing. By the same token having a C-license doesn't mean you know what you are doing.

We have recommendations as a minimum...a minimum...and that's the point.


taylor.freefall  (A 52570)

Jan 20, 2012, 7:35 PM
Post #89 of 175 (1193 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think what waveoff is saying is - how can 200 jumps be a definitive number when, in reality, that's an impossible thing to judge and can only really be judged by somebody with with tons of experience both in skydiving, and skydiving with camera.

....I think it's something that you can't put a number on - it has to be a case by case basis, ...

First, re-read the SIM. You're out-of-date.

Here's' my take.
We have the recommendations for a reason.

c. A USPA C license is recommended.
d. The jumper should have made at least 50 recent
jumps on the same parachute equipment to be
used for camera flying
,
...and more

Note we no longer have a number on it.

What we DO have is young jumpers thinking they have Mad Skillz violating those recommendations because, as you detail, it's being left up to any Tom, Dick and Harry that elects to ignore those recommendations.

If everybody adhered to the recommendations, ALL the recommendations (check the SIM), we wouldn't be having these problems to the extent we are.

Take note, the recommendations are a minimum, not a cut-and-dry line in the sand....just as Bill pointed out. Having a C license does not automatically qualify you for camera flying....just as having Mad Skillz doesn't.

Just because you can steer a car around the block doesn't mean that I'm going to put you into a Testarossa.


Just this weekend, I had a jumper with just under 400 jumps take his camera out for the first time...unbeknownst to me.

When I found out about it, I asked him, "What are you going to do if your suspension lines get caught up on your camera. He says, "Pull the cutaway chin strap!". Then I asked, "What if you can't get the cutaway chin strap undone?"
Unsure
He had no clue. Didn't even realize it was a horseshoe mal.

You're right. Jump numbers are meaningless if you don't know what you are doing. By the same token having a C-license doesn't mean you know what you are doing.

We have recommendations as a minimum...a minimum...and that's the point.

Pops I don't want to get in to an argument over this - and my post wasn't meant to come across in an argumentative way.
You speak to me like I'm a fucking idiot when I'm only trying to put forward suggestions to the problem of low jump numbers getting in to problems when introducing a camera.
Whether a ruling is made or simply recommendations are continued is irrelevant to me. As it stands; if it remains recommendations only, a 50 jump skydiver can perfectly "legally" jump camera - so please don't complain when those people do just that.
- Oh, just to add, as you say - people ARE not (and will not) always adhere to the recommendations - THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT!!


sacex250

Jan 20, 2012, 8:34 PM
Post #90 of 175 (1181 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If everybody adhered to the recommendations, ALL the recommendations (check the SIM), we wouldn't be having these problems to the extent we are.
Could you be a little more specific about all of these extensive problems due to people not following the recommendations in the SIM?

Quote:
Take note, the recommendations are a minimum, not a cut-and-dry line in the sand....
By definition, a recommendation is not a minimum.

Following the rules, BSRs or otherwise, also means not misinterpreting them by reading too much into them.


skyguyscott  (D 13458)

Jan 20, 2012, 10:28 PM
Post #91 of 175 (1161 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Im really liking this discussion. We've come a very long way since the days of cameras being the size and weight of bricks strapped to your helmet.

Also new: facebook and youtube. Combined with small, relatively inexpensive, lightweight cameras, newbies often can't wait to video their adventures and post them for all the world to see.

The technology exists today for someone to fashion a video camera that could easily fit INSIDE a full-face helmet (Think of the size of the HD camera inside the iPhone), though I have not seen anyone do this yet.

I can see some benefit to reviewing a student jump from the student POV, especially if there was an incident; the footage may be helpful.

The question of course, is how much of a distraction is having a camera to the jumper. If the camera evolves into a mere recording device solely to inconspicuously monitor and record the jump, it may not be a distraction, especially if it becomes just another piece of gear.

But if the jumper is using the camera as a tool of expression, to shoot a particular subject, then I think they will be much more focused on it (and less so on their environment -- their situational awareness suffers)

Recently, the US government has determined that cell phone use while driving, even hands-free phones, are too distracting and recommends their being banned.

The tech keeps evolving, but our brains, not so much.


taylor.freefall  (A 52570)

Jan 20, 2012, 10:40 PM
Post #92 of 175 (1160 views)
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Re: [skyguyscott] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the most sensible posts yet...
Are you more likely to "geek" around in front of your own (self attached) camera, or are you more likely to geek around in front of an instructor held camera (or camera guy for all of you that are going to jump in and say.. "a camera doesn't just have to be held by an instructor"...).
The bottom line is there needs to be an "industry standard" - only for the sole purpose of solving these ridiculous (self righteous) arguments about "who should" and "who.. should not"!


dragon2  (D 101989)

Jan 20, 2012, 11:35 PM
Post #93 of 175 (1145 views)
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Re: [skyguyscott] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The technology exists today for someone to fashion a video camera that could easily fit INSIDE a full-face helmet (Think of the size of the HD camera inside the iPhone), though I have not seen anyone do this yet.

I have. One of the jumpers I talked to about cameraflying last season came to show me his brand new setup. He had a bulletcam-type camera (actually a bit smaller than that) mounted on the inside of his visor.

I haven't seen any footage of it, so maybe the setup didn't work so well in practice, but certainly there was at least no snag possibility there whatsoever. I thought it was original, in any case Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 21, 2012, 2:51 AM
Post #94 of 175 (1125 views)
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Re: [taylor.freefall] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pops I don't want to get in to an argument over this - and my post wasn't meant to come across in an argumentative way.
Neither was mine and I didn't intend it to be. Sorry if it came across that way.

In reply to:
You speak to me like I'm a fucking idiot when I'm only trying to put forward suggestions to the problem of low jump numbers getting in to problems when introducing a camera.
Please, let's not go off the deep end here. I was not talking to you as an idiot. As I stated, "here's MY take on it." ...MY opinion and viewpoint. That's all. No hammering you except for maybe the bit about out-of-date with the200-jump number.

In reply to:
As it stands; if it remains recommendations only, a 50 jump skydiver can perfectly "legally" jump camera -
All true. We are not addressing legality. We are addressing common sense.

In reply to:
so please don't complain when those people do just that.
Sorry. That will never happen. I am not one of those who turn a blind eye when "people do just that." I would hope that you, too, would stand up when you see something out of whack as opposed to letting it pass. That's one of the major problems today....few people stand up and question the actions of others. And that goes well beyond just camera flying.

In reply to:
- Oh, just to add, as you say - people ARE not (and will not) always adhere to the recommendations - THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT!!
Agreed! And THAT'S EXACTLY THE PROBLEM!


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 21, 2012, 3:06 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 21, 2012, 2:59 AM
Post #95 of 175 (1125 views)
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Re: [sacex250] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Could you be a little more specific about all of these extensive problems due to people not following the recommendations in the SIM?
Do your own research. It's a great way to learn.
I'd suggest starting with camera flying, looking into wing suiting, moving on the high-performance landings and really getting deep into emergency procedures. You may discover extensive problems caused by not knowing and/or ignoring that information in the SIM.

You could short-cut a little by researching DZ.com threads. Incident forum would get you started.

In reply to:
By definition, a recommendation is not a minimum.
What do you think those recommendations really mean and what are they for? Do you know how those recommendations came about?


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jan 21, 2012, 5:49 AM
Post #96 of 175 (1100 views)
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Re: [taylor.freefall] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The bottom line is there needs to be an "industry standard" - only for the sole purpose of solving these ridiculous (self righteous) arguments about "who should" and "who.. should not"!

USPA's "recommendations", combined with applicable FAR's, already are the "industry standard" for skydiving in the US.


yardart  (D 26764)

Jan 21, 2012, 6:45 AM
Post #97 of 175 (1081 views)
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Re: [skybytch] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish they would hurry up with the BSR. It's making my job a real pain in the ass. Students are showing up from other larger DZ's with gopro's and can't understand why we insist that they follow the uspa recommendations. I'm beginning to think that every student should get a camera so that we don't lose the work. It really pisses me off that everyone can't get on the same page on this. Sorry, just venting.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jan 21, 2012, 7:11 AM
Post #98 of 175 (1074 views)
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Re: [yardart] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I wish they would hurry up with the BSR.

Don't hold your breath. You'll turn blue. There won't be any new BSR's until USPA members elect BOD members who are willing to do what's right for the sport today and into the future, not just continue doing what was right for the sport 20 years ago...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 21, 2012, 8:41 AM
Post #99 of 175 (1044 views)
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Re: [taylor.freefall] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

>how can 200 jumps be a definitive number when, in reality, that's an impossible thing
>to judge and can only really be judged by somebody with with tons of experience both
>in skydiving, and skydiving with camera.

You can't. As with any number in skydiving it is our best estimate of a minimum. Before 200 jumps there's no way in hell you have the skill. The jump after that nothing changes. But at 250? Maybe there's a chance if you really work your ass off. 300? A better chance. 500? Now you're getting into the range where 50% of people out there might be ready for it with a moderate amount of work.

If this is really a problem we could come up with a pretty simple test for it. Want to video 4-way? Learn to do at least 4 points in time so you understand the flying. Then go up with a 4-way group and fly in the camera position with someone else flying outside camera. Stay within 20 feet of the group at all times, without fallrate or heading problems. Do this with both a good 4 way team and a bad 4 way team. Then repeat with a suit with camera wings. Get all the jumps on outside video so an instructor (or the head video guy or whoever) can evaluate your flying. If you can do all that then you've demonstrated you're ready to fly camera.

And heck you could try to do that all at jump number 8. It would be a pretty big waste of money though.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jan 21, 2012, 8:43 AM
Post #100 of 175 (1043 views)
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Re: [skybytch] "Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!" [In reply to] Can't Post

,
In reply to:
In reply to:
I wish they would hurry up with the BSR.

Don't hold your breath. You'll turn blue. There won't be any new BSR's until USPA members elect BOD members who are willing to do what's right for the sport today and into the future, not just continue doing what was right for the sport 20 years ago...

They haven't done a whole lot where people have been being killed right and left by people doing high performance landings, so why should they care if some kid wants to take himself and his buddy out... at least they bring it on themselves.


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