Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Is swooping pushing the envelope?

 


Poll: Is swooping pushing the envelope?
Swooping is pushing the envelope(I'm a swooper) 43 / 23%
Swooping is not pushing it(I'm a swooper) 18 / 10%
Swooping is pushing it(I'm not a swooper) 98 / 53%
Swooping is not pushing it(I'm not a swooper) 27 / 15%
186 total votes
 
bigbearfng  (D 29442)

Dec 31, 2011, 12:52 PM
Post #1 of 56 (3035 views)
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Is swooping pushing the envelope? Can't Post

Just wanting to get a handle on how most folk see things when it comes to swooping.
Seems it's commonly accepted that wingsuiting/freeflying/camera all increase risks, however they don't rise to the level of "pushing the envelope".
Also I'm sure that most everyone agrees that Jeb's "threading the crack" for example is absolutely pushing the envelope as is BASE.
So what about swooping?


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Dec 31, 2011, 1:09 PM
Post #2 of 56 (2959 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

I voted yes (not a swooper) but I guess I'm wondering what we're trying to prove here. All of the things you cited add risk, but the risk can be managed and mitigated in a variety of ways in all those examples, or you can go straight to the edge of the envelope, and lots of variations in between.


DaVinciflies

Dec 31, 2011, 1:21 PM
Post #3 of 56 (2944 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Define "pushing the envelope".


bigbearfng  (D 29442)

Dec 31, 2011, 1:31 PM
Post #4 of 56 (2927 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Define "pushing the envelope".

Which is what I'd like to know.......at least what most folks perception of it is when it comes to swooping.
Do you agree "threading the crack" is pushing the envelope?

Seems changes are in the wind.........and I figure the general perception of swooping in the skydiving community is going to play a big part in which way it may go.


DaVinciflies

Dec 31, 2011, 1:57 PM
Post #5 of 56 (2905 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you agree "threading the crack" is pushing the envelope?

Yes I do because it is really pushing the boundaries of what is possible.

Swooping on the other hand is an established part of the sport with official competitions. As such I don't think swooping is pushing the envelope per se.

It's just some of the muppets that try to do it that are pushing their own personal envelopes.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Dec 31, 2011, 2:19 PM
Post #6 of 56 (2884 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Define swooping.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Dec 31, 2011, 2:46 PM
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Swooping was pushing the envelope when The boys were swooping the ditch with their PD 170s.
Swooping was pushing the envelope when the first blindman was executed.
Swooping is pushing the envelope as the competitive athletes try new planforms and higher wingloadings.
Is swooping pushing the envelope when I pull a 270 loaded at 1.95:1? Not so much.
Can it still get me dead? Yup.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Dec 31, 2011, 3:21 PM
Post #8 of 56 (2832 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Swooping was pushing the envelope when ...

Swooping by it's very nature, is the act of pushing the envelope. Good grief swoopers are purposely trying to induce as much speed as they can (hopefully within their limits). Having inexperienced or uncurrent people die because they were pushing the envelope is NOT good. The margin for errors in swooping is slime to nil. But even the best know the risks and could fall prey to the risks if there is an ounce of complacency.

As Ian says "Define Swooping" because large BASE canopies can be swooped just as small pocket rocket canopies are swooped. And of course not all swoopers are created equal. There is a big difference between the best swoopers in the world and the other swoopers who have the skill to compete against the best, but do not have what it takes to win competitions. Then of course there is a big difference between the competition level swooper and the beer line swooper and of course a big difference between the beer line swoopers and the wannabees.

Most of us can agree (I thought we came to this conclusion several years ago) that swoopers must be segregated by everyone else by time or space (or better yet both time and space). But there seems to be a mentality by some to want to "Ban Swooping". You know you are a swooper (this usually applies to the competition level swooper) when all you want to do, is swoop. Non-swoopers can not understand this need swoopers have to swoop.

"Define Swooping" ... I was only starting to learn how to do freestyle on the pond when I stopped being current as a swooper and thus had to hang up any ambitions I had towards competing against the best. But I always loved watching the best, skim across the pond, take their shoe off, show the shoe to the crowd, put their shoe back on and proceeded to land their canopies on the dry side of the pond. If swooping is ever banned, it will be a sad day for the evolution of skydiving. None of us gets out of here alive.


(This post was edited by CanuckInUSA on Dec 31, 2011, 3:29 PM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 31, 2011, 3:37 PM
Post #9 of 56 (2815 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Define swooping.

That's actually funny if ya think about it.


danornan  (D 11308)

Dec 31, 2011, 3:42 PM
Post #10 of 56 (2807 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't swoop or base jump.

In my opinion, swooping is very much like base jumping. A little more exciting and thrilling when it works correctly.

Quite dangerous if it is not timed correctly.


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Dec 31, 2011, 6:26 PM
Post #11 of 56 (2745 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So what about swooping?

Swooping is very dangerous when an inexperienced canopy pilot. Swooping is definitely something you want to learn to do in stages and monitored by a professional. I'd rather swoop my X-Fire2 than do CREW, RW, or any other discipline.


kgb25  (D 29557)

Dec 31, 2011, 6:54 PM
Post #12 of 56 (2730 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

no way is it pushing it, the problem is there is no progressive steps or regulation. If you dont hold a pro card you shouldnt be allowed to swoop!! Go get proper training and prove you can saftely swoop and fly a canopy. most people can't even fly a canopy properly, the most important aspect of this sport. swooping is not for everyone!!!


diablopilot  (D License)

Dec 31, 2011, 7:11 PM
Post #13 of 56 (2720 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

It entirely depends who's doing it. Most of the muppets dying are the copycats, so they are not redefining the envelope. They might be pushing their OWN skills envelope but are not redefining the boundaries at all.

Jay, Nick, JC, Clint, they are all the types that were redefining the edge.

Jeb on the other hand IS one of the handful redefining the envelope in his chosen discipline.

The muppets in the wingsuit forum that have continual cock measuring contests are not.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Dec 31, 2011, 7:26 PM
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Re: [kgb25] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
no way is it pushing it, the problem is there is no progressive steps

There are plenty of progressive steps.

Canopies are generally sold in 10-20 square foot size increments (with a few vendors willing to make in-between sizes) and several degrees of responsiveness to control input and tendency to dive.

Any size of diving front riser turn is possible starting at 0 degrees with flatter turns before or after allowing curved speed inducing maneuvers that aren't multiples of 90 degrees to fit into a standard landing pattern.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Dec 31, 2011, 7:27 PM)


tbrown  (D 6533)

Dec 31, 2011, 11:48 PM
Post #15 of 56 (2674 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the swoopers I've ever heard, or read in print, say right up front that it's pushing the envelope. Coming in that close, that fast, is pushing the envelope by definition. They say everyone who learns to swoop will crash sometime and even some of the very best can be hurt or killed on any given jump. That's pushing the envelope - and not a criticism.


trigger  (D 101390)

Jan 1, 2012, 4:21 AM
Post #16 of 56 (2620 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
They might be pushing their OWN skills envelope
I voted for pushing the envelope, abiet personal envelope if you don't in any dicipline/sport it's akin to saying i will never improve i will stagnate.
It's the way an individual goes about 'pushing the envelope' that makes the difference i.e blindly or with education and a step at a time (slowly,slowly catchy monkey)


craigbey  (C 31991)

Jan 1, 2012, 4:28 AM
Post #17 of 56 (2617 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Any size of diving front riser turn is possible starting at 0 degrees with flatter turns before or after allowing curved speed inducing maneuvers that aren't multiples of 90 degrees to fit into a standard landing pattern.

There is only one size of turn that fits into a standard landing pattern. Hence the name.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jan 1, 2012, 5:39 AM
Post #18 of 56 (2581 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Define envelope.

I guess I'm being a smart-ass. But it's like asking, "Is skydiving dangerous?" Yes. Well, no. Well, sort of. Well, it is, but it's OK if the risk is managed. Of course, one person's risk is another person's fun. Etc., etc.

No offense, but the thread is really mostly about definitions. I never really found these "definitions" discussions about skydiving to be all that illuminating. Post #2 was a good ending point.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Jan 1, 2012, 5:44 AM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 1, 2012, 5:41 AM
Post #19 of 56 (2578 views)
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Re: [kgb25] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
no way is it pushing it, the problem is there is no progressive steps or regulation. If you dont hold a pro card you shouldnt be allowed to swoop!! Go get proper training and prove you can saftely swoop and fly a canopy. most people can't even fly a canopy properly, the most important aspect of this sport. swooping is not for everyone!!!

There certainly is a progression. Mine was Raven, Excalibur, Monarch, smaller Monarch, Nova, Stiletto, Velocity. Every swooper has a progression. It's just that some progress too quickly.

As for regulation, what exactly do you want to regulate? Wing loading? Degrees of performance turns? In case you haven't noticed, many of the swoop incidents involve highly experienced pilots with many thousands of jumps - folks that would easily qualify for any regulation that would be instituted.

I think you misunderstand what the pro program is about. Receiving pro training and getting a pro card has nothing to do with swooping.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 1, 2012, 5:44 AM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Define envelope.

Define definition.Tongue


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jan 1, 2012, 5:46 AM
Post #21 of 56 (2579 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Define envelope.

Define definition.Tongue

Oh, I almost forgot.

Define pushing. I mean, when we use our toggles and risers, aren't we really pulling?

Why does the chicken swoop? He doesn't; he's a fucking chicken.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Jan 1, 2012, 5:48 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 1, 2012, 6:15 AM
Post #22 of 56 (2561 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Define envelope.

Define definition.Tongue


Define 'The'...Angelic


I gotta agree, it's not pushing THE envelope as far as the sport is concerned...the path however bloody has been forged. But one may be pushing 'their' envelope by swooping...heck some are pushing it packing their own parachute! Sly


Ron

Jan 1, 2012, 6:21 AM
Post #23 of 56 (2558 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

It depends on:
1 Who
2. Equipment used
3. Maneuver used.

Me on a velo 96 doing a 270. That's not pushing it.
Me on an FX69 was pushing it.
Some guy with 100 jumps on a stiletto doing a 180 is pushing it.
Some guy with 100 jumps on a velo is pushing it even if he flies a straight in approach.

Which is not to say that me doing a 180 on a stiletto is 'conservative' there is nothing conservative about turning low to increase speed.


monkycndo  (D License)

Jan 1, 2012, 8:43 AM
Post #24 of 56 (2488 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I think you misunderstand what the pro program is about. Receiving pro training and getting a pro card has nothing to do with swooping.

Chuck, I can understand the idea even though they are two different ways of flying the parachute. I think the idea of getting the PRO rating would slow down the progression in trying to be a swooper in that you would have to have the PRO required 500 jumps and show you have an understanding of canopy control for the 10 declared accuracy landings. If a jumper doesn't have the discipline to get the PRO card, they most likely will end up being the current type of swooper that fills these incedent reports.

And since wingsuiters are getting bashed for some reason about our current attempts of pushing the envelope, we have the same battle of newer birds progressing too fast to the big flying carpets without putting the time in the smaller suits to gain the required skils. Different shape of wing, but same problem.

It shows that we have a common problen that when we can't self regulate by peer pressure/guidelines/mentoring, regulations end up being the only stick that is effective in beating back the overaggresive noobs that want to push the envelope, be it only their own personal one.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 1, 2012, 9:00 AM
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Re: [monkycndo] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

I think you misunderstand what the pro program is about. Receiving pro training and getting a pro card has nothing to do with swooping.

Chuck, I can understand the idea even though they are two different ways of flying the parachute. I think the idea of getting the PRO rating would slow down the progression in trying to be a swooper in that you would have to have the PRO required 500 jumps and show you have an understanding of canopy control for the 10 declared accuracy landings. If a jumper doesn't have the discipline to get the PRO card, they most likely will end up being the current type of swooper that fills these incedent reports.

And since wingsuiters are getting bashed for some reason about our current attempts of pushing the envelope, we have the same battle of newer birds progressing too fast to the big flying carpets without putting the time in the smaller suits to gain the required skils. Different shape of wing, but same problem.

It shows that we have a common problen that when we can't self regulate by peer pressure/guidelines/mentoring, regulations end up being the only stick that is effective in beating back the overaggresive noobs that want to push the envelope, be it only their own personal one.

Essentially you're saying the same thing many others have said - that we need a developed program for progression. I don't completely disagree with the concept, but I don't think there would be a lot of support for making it mandatory. Remember, even a pro rating isn't necessary to perform pro level demos. There is an option for going around it.

Besides, many swoop accidents involve people who are very well qualified and highly experienced. People progressing too rapidly is only part of the overall swoop accident problem.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Jan 1, 2012, 10:23 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
People progressing too rapidly is only part of the overall swoop accident problem.

There is nothing safe about swooping. It doesn't matter if you are a wannabee trying to learn how to swoop, an accomplished beer line swooper or a competition level swooper. The best swoopers in the world have been seen digging themselves out of the corner. A momentary lapse of judgment could prove to be fatal.

- No argument "wannabee" swoopers need to be real and realize swooping takes hundreds if not thousands of jumps with small baby steps taken along the way and having some sort of personal coaching mentor. Want to learn how to swoop? Seek an experienced mentor (preferably an established competition level swooper), put your freefall ambitions on hold and start dedicating jumps towards canopy control.

- Beer line swoopers need to get off of regular loads. Swoopers need to be segregated by time or space (preferrably segregated by both time and space). I know some instructors, camera fliers and experienced fun jumpers will not agree with this, but swooping in traffic should NOT be tolerated no matter how skilled the person is. Want to swoop ... do a hop n' pop or pull at altitude out of the door if you jump at a DZ when pulling high is allowed. And always coordinate with others before you get on the airplane who swoops first, who will be second, so on and so forth. Always have a plan and stick to the plan.

- Competition level swoopers need to be honest with themselves. Sure generating more speed (ie: bigger turns) can help them. But we have lost a few people thanks to big turn swoops and others have had close calls while attempting big turns. I am not saying competition level swoopers should not be attempting big turns, they just need to weigh the risks versus the rewards be honest with themselves concerning their talents. I always wanted to do bigger turns when I was an active competitive swooper, but I was always training for the next competition and you would think that in training I could find the time to learn to do bigger turns. But making the gates was more important than generating that added extra speed of the big turn. Sounds weird ... training was the time to learn the bigger turns, but I was also losing valuable training time if I was always missing the gates (or worse putting myself at risk). So I stuck with what I knew, made the gates and lived to tell about it.

The problem with swooping is when you follow the "Go Big or Go Home" mantra, sometimes "Going Home" is a permanent home than most of us do not want to visit prematurely. Swooping rocks, but it sure is not safe.


Tuna-Salad  (C 38765)

Jan 1, 2012, 5:40 PM
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Re: [NWFlyer] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I voted yes (not a swooper) but I guess I'm wondering what we're trying to prove here. All of the things you cited add risk, but the risk can be managed and mitigated in a variety of ways in all those examples, or you can go straight to the edge of the envelope, and lots of variations in between.

I agree sort of, but the only way to mitigate swooping is to not do it in the first place. Just an opinion from a non swooper.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Jan 1, 2012, 8:27 PM
Post #28 of 56 (1183 views)
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Re: [Tuna-Salad] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep. Just like skydiving.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Jan 2, 2012, 6:40 PM
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Re: [Tuna-Salad] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is true that to avoid a potential disaster is to not do the activity. In 2011 I avoided unintentional canopy collisions and hooking it in. Mostly by drastically reducing the number of skydives i would have normally done (500+ to about 30 in 2011). Staying current till viable solutions form. The majority of my focus for last years jumps was surviving the pattern instead of the usual pond swoop away from others doing as big a turn as conditions would allow. I still find myself tailoring my skydives to position me in clean airspace away from others even for flying the pattern. Doing no more than 90 degree turns 2000ft and below is easy, flying the pattern, easy. Lower risk/less deadly than beginning a hookturn at 2000', nope. Flying the predictable pattern with others is just as dangerous as doing hookturns for me. Under canopy I tend to be a bit on edge, scared as hell of other flying crafts flight path interfering with my flight path and vice versa.
Hookturns, swooping, skydiving, they are dangerous activities. Safe and skydiving do not belong in the same sentence, nor does safe and BASE jumping, nor safe and driving. Mitigating risk/risk management is necessary to repeat such activities. Every jump is a stunt, I overcome the things that can injure me and kill me, with research and precautionary steps and go for it if I feel like all the predicted factors will line up right and I have a way to abort if necessary. Skydivers risk serious injury or death when partaking in skydiving activities. It's pretty obvious. Skydiving is pushing it. Within the first few minutes on the first day I went skydiving I realized this when I read initial'd and signed the waiver. Pushing it skydiving has been and continues to be very enjoyable dangerous activity. So inevitably for me, so has hookturns, swooping, cameraflying, wingsuiting, coaching, organizing, team training, skydiving competitions, beer line swoops, boogies, a few 727 jet jumps, night jumps, downplanes, crew wraps, big ways, RW, freefly, freestyle, skysurf, accuracy, and zoo loads. Pushing it. Always seeking clear airspace to fly my parachute however I decide so I can walk away from landing and go again. The ways I've endured skydiving may be considered pushing the envelope to some. To others, not so much.
Recognizing hazards and avoiding getting injured or killed skydiving is pretty easy. Having each jumper follow dz policies for landing area pattern daily, each jump, not so easy. Jumpers still screw up the simplest things like landing direction. Skydiving is dangerous. If banning a particular activity to mitigate risk is necessary, so be it. Skydivers flight has been constantly evolving at a heck of a pace, but the basics I learned on day 1 are still the basics I take on each jump. So far the training has paid off. If there is a place in time and space available for me to endure freedom playing with my parachute flying skills, I'll find it and go there if I so desire. Might fly the predictable 90 degree pattern, might swoop a pond after a big fat hookturn if it's a go, and skip and splash across the pond drowning camera gear and walking away to skydive another day. Skydiving, count me in. You can bet that whatever happens after I leave the airplane will be considered 'pushing the envelope' no matter how disciplined I fly compared to sitting here typing a bunch of bs.


piisfish

Jan 3, 2012, 12:19 AM
Post #30 of 56 (1089 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

jumping from an airplane is already pushing the envelope.


jrjny  (A License)

Jan 3, 2012, 6:39 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

It just adds additional uncontrolled risk. Anyone can agree with that. If you eat it while doing it it's less surprising than a solo belly jump/straight in approach.

Even still, that belly jump has some amount of uncontrolled risk just as the drive to the DZ and the steak you ate tonight that might give you a heart attack one day.

Live and let die -- if you jump and your family would be heartbroken to lose you to something you love; maybe they are too greedy. Or maybe you are...

Jeff


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 3, 2012, 6:55 PM
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Re: [jrjny] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It just adds additional uncontrolled risk. Anyone can agree with that.

I disagree, at least as I understand you. The risk in swooping is not uncontrolled. It is by its' very nature a controlled risk. The uncontrolled aspects of swooping are exactly the same as the uncontrolled aspects of non-swoop landings like sudden wind changes and dust devils.

Maybe I don't understand what you mean. Can you explain further?


jrjny  (A License)

Jan 3, 2012, 7:19 PM
Post #33 of 56 (1019 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure - I mean that after you have a canopy over your head you're faced with a range of scenarios:

1) HP landing - this is typically higher speed and the rate of change between [altitude - ground] accelerates rapidly near the end of the jump.

2) 'Normal landing' - straight in landing most people fly from student to experienced who don't practice HP landings

In the case of the 'normal landing' the rate of change between the pilot and the ground stays constant during the parachute ride.

Given that BOTH scenarios involve uncontrolled risk (swooping or not), the addition of vertical speed near the end of the dive necessarily creates uncontrolled risk above and beyond the risk presented by a straight in approach.

Now I do agree that an experienced HP canopy pilot probably has better odds of landing safely than a novice jumper with no wind or a canopy that's slightly too small but I think this is an edge case. More often than not, comparing a D licensed jumper doing a normal landing vs a D licensed jumper with swoop experience, swooping...in the long run which we'll never live to see I do believe the swoop adds uncontrolled risk.

Another edge case could be a dust devil...if you're going crazy fast you might be less affected by it? My 2 cents, having never swooped just looking at it rationally.


(This post was edited by jrjny on Jan 3, 2012, 7:20 PM)


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Jan 3, 2012, 8:09 PM
Post #34 of 56 (1007 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep Jeff it adds additional risk. Skydivers have 'uncontrolled moments' throughout their entire skydiving career. Have you ever seen a bigway? Bigger than 100? For the most part each jumper has control of themselves under canopy flying a superb pattern. As a bigway lands, count the number of 'other than controlled stand up landings'. Throughout a bigway event, some jumpers will need ice for botched landings. Same for swoopers, Students and Tandems, they play in the dirt too. All disciplines and jump numbers have had similar accidents, not surprising even deadly ones. Canopy collisions, turning too low, no pull/low pull misjudging flare timing, understanding speed=lift instead of speed= ground pound. There is additional risk, no doubt. I understand that if I skydive and do everything correct jumping any type of parachute equipment, I risk serious injury or even
death possibly due to 'uncontrolled circumstances'. Kinda shitty thing to have to accept but I do, therefore I skydive.


jrjny  (A License)

Jan 3, 2012, 8:14 PM
Post #35 of 56 (1003 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree - a bigway adds additional risk but it's cool right?


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 4, 2012, 4:34 AM
Post #36 of 56 (977 views)
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Re: [jrjny] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I agree - a bigway adds additional risk but it's cool right?

So is swooping, so is CReW, so is wingsuiting.... See a pattern?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 4, 2012, 4:42 AM
Post #37 of 56 (977 views)
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Re: [Remster] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I agree - a bigway adds additional risk but it's cool right?

So is swooping, so is CReW, so is wingsuiting.... See a pattern?

Yes, plaid.Laugh


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 4, 2012, 6:51 AM
Post #38 of 56 (966 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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I agree - a bigway adds additional risk but it's cool right?

So is swooping, so is CReW, so is wingsuiting.... See a pattern?

Yes, plaid.Laugh

Hey... The Plaid Jackets were an AWESOME CReW team!


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Jan 4, 2012, 8:32 AM
Post #39 of 56 (953 views)
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Re: [Remster] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Flying through the air with the greatest if ease is fun for me. With a hundred buddies, awesome! Incredible really. Sometimes cool, cold, hot as hell. I don't know much about being cool. Sometimes my shoes and socks don't match, dang downplanes and toe drags. I'll jump if the weather is jumpable any where between 1820' -24,000ft out of a skydiving airplane. Each jump has additional risks. I could spend each skydive decending at a constant survivable rate with a very small portion of the jump having any amount of speed. Static line rounds. That's how we should enjoy skydiving cause it'd be safer, right? Well, wouldn't ya know it, jumpers died that way too. Jumping out of airplanes is serious and fun and dangerous. When I jump out of an airplane, I'm AirTrash, flailing meat, look out below....


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jan 4, 2012, 11:02 AM
Post #40 of 56 (932 views)
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Re: [bigbearfng] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

mailmen push the envelope more than all you jokers


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 4, 2012, 11:31 AM
Post #41 of 56 (921 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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mailmen push the envelope more than all you jokers

Yeah, but they sure as hell don't push it fast!Sly

(i just love post office humor)


Lindenwood  (Student)

Jul 29, 2012, 6:40 AM
Post #42 of 56 (799 views)
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Re: [trigger] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

I voted that it is pushing the envelop, but I do NOT think that is necessarily a bad thing. Humans finding ways to do anything we never thought we could is rarely a bad thing, in my opinion.

But, even my instructors acknowledged swooping is dangerous (and not in response to me asking how I could start :P ).


SkyPiggie  (D License)

Jul 29, 2012, 8:39 AM
Post #43 of 56 (786 views)
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Re: [Lindenwood] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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I voted that it is pushing the envelop, but I do NOT think that is necessarily a bad thing. Humans finding ways to do anything we never thought we could is rarely a bad thing, in my opinion.

People dieing attempting dumb things is not bad? Please explain.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 29, 2012, 10:34 AM
Post #44 of 56 (757 views)
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Re: [SkyPiggie] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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I voted that it is pushing the envelop, but I do NOT think that is necessarily a bad thing. Humans finding ways to do anything we never thought we could is rarely a bad thing, in my opinion.

People dieing attempting dumb things is not bad? Please explain.

"Dumb" is a relative term.

Is auto racing dumb? How about golf? People die doing both.


PiLFy  (A License)

Jul 29, 2012, 12:48 PM
Post #45 of 56 (721 views)
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Re: [SkyPiggie] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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I voted that it is pushing the envelop, but I do NOT think that is necessarily a bad thing. Humans finding ways to do anything we never thought we could is rarely a bad thing, in my opinion.

People dieing attempting dumb things is not bad? Please explain.

Speak for yourself, Piggie. For someone like me to try it. It would be called suicide. For those that actually have the skills? It's their choice to make. They know the risks just as well as we do.


DocPop  (C License)

Jul 29, 2012, 5:24 PM
Post #46 of 56 (665 views)
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Re: [SkyPiggie] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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I voted that it is pushing the envelop, but I do NOT think that is necessarily a bad thing. Humans finding ways to do anything we never thought we could is rarely a bad thing, in my opinion.

People dieing attempting dumb things is not bad? Please explain.

He didn't say dying is not bad, he said that pushing the envelope is not necessarily a bad thing.

Quite different.


SkyPiggie  (D License)

Jul 29, 2012, 7:07 PM
Post #47 of 56 (638 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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He didn't say dying is not bad, he said that pushing the envelope is not necessarily a bad thing.

It is if you don't know what the heck you're doing.


SkyPiggie  (D License)

Jul 29, 2012, 7:09 PM
Post #48 of 56 (637 views)
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Re: [PiLFy] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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People dieing attempting dumb things is not bad? Please explain.

For someone like me to try it. It would be called suicide. For those that actually have the skills? It's their choice to make. They know the risks just as well as we do.

Right. Therefore you can't make a blanket statement that pushing the envelope is a good thing. It depends upon who is doing the pushing and whether or not they are properly prepared to do so.

Is it a good idea for a 16-year old teenage male to push the envelope by driving 100 mph with his new learner's permit?


(This post was edited by SkyPiggie on Jul 29, 2012, 7:10 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Jul 29, 2012, 7:29 PM
Post #49 of 56 (622 views)
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Re: [SkyPiggie] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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He didn't say dying is not bad, he said that pushing the envelope is not necessarily a bad thing.

It is if you don't know what the heck you're doing.

I think it is implicit in the question that we are talking about experienced canopy pilots. It is obviously pushing the envelope for someone with no training to be swooping. Just as it is pushing the envelope for someone with no training to be skydiving, or driving a car.

Is swooping ALWAYS pushing the envelope might be a better question.

But then that would depend on your definition of swooping.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jul 29, 2012, 7:56 PM
Post #50 of 56 (617 views)
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Re: [SkyPiggie] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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People dieing attempting dumb things is not bad? Please explain.

For someone like me to try it. It would be called suicide. For those that actually have the skills? It's their choice to make. They know the risks just as well as we do.

Right. Therefore you can't make a blanket statement that pushing the envelope is a good thing. It depends upon who is doing the pushing and whether or not they are properly prepared to do so.

Is it a good idea for a 16-year old teenage male to push the envelope by driving 100 mph with his new learner's permit?

I guess it depends on how you define "pushing the envelope."

I understand it as carefully, incrementally and with a great deal of calculation, doing things at the edge of your current abilities. Or the capabilities of the equipment you are using. It is shaving the error margin thinner one slice at a time.

For me it is 90 carving turns to final. A little more input each time to build a little more speed, most of which is bleeding off before I land.

Trying to crank out a 270 to a swoop wouldn't be "pushing" the envelope for me, it would be blasting a big hole in it.


Littlelad  (D License)

Jul 29, 2012, 11:55 PM
Post #51 of 56 (342 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

I voted "pushing it", however I understand why people do it and one day I might want to push the envelope a bit further myself. As long as people are as "safe" as possible and mitigate the risks then fair enough


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 30, 2012, 5:13 AM
Post #52 of 56 (322 views)
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Re: [SkyPiggie] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Therefore you can't make a blanket statement that pushing the envelope is a good thing. It depends upon who is doing the pushing and whether or not they are properly prepared to do so.

Right, so asking if pushing 'THE' envelope is good is a poor word choice. The question should be if swoopers pushing 'THEIR' envelope is a good thing.

Pushing THE envelope implies that you're on the very edge of what's known to be possible in all of swooping, and probably should be reserved for the very best swoopers in the world.

Swoopers pushing THEIR envelope means using their current limitations as the scale, with a push being some incrementally beyond the top end of those limits. In that respect, it's hard to fault as it's the basis of learning and advancement in all of society. At some point your have to exceed your limitations in order to move beyond the status quo.

So on an individual level, it's hard to fault anyone pushing their limits, save for a situation with a definite end. Take pull altitudes, you cannot simply continue to push those lower and lower, because there is a definite end to the progression, and at some point it just becomes too close.

Swooping, on the other hand, doesn't have a definite end, so how can you fault swoopers for pushing THE limits, provided it's not too far outside THEIR limits? It's like suggesting that the current scores for 4-way competition are high enough, and that jumpers should stop trying turn points faster.


Lindenwood  (Student)

Jul 30, 2012, 11:19 AM
Post #53 of 56 (288 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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People dieing attempting dumb things is not bad? Please explain.

For someone like me to try it. It would be called suicide. For those that actually have the skills? It's their choice to make. They know the risks just as well as we do.

Right. Therefore you can't make a blanket statement that pushing the envelope is a good thing. It depends upon who is doing the pushing and whether or not they are properly prepared to do so.

Is it a good idea for a 16-year old teenage male to push the envelope by driving 100 mph with his new learner's permit?

I guess it depends on how you define "pushing the envelope."

I understand it as carefully, incrementally and with a great deal of calculation, doing things at the edge of your current abilities. Or the capabilities of the equipment you are using. It is shaving the error margin thinner one slice at a time.

For me it is 90 carving turns to final. A little more input each time to build a little more speed, most of which is bleeding off before I land.

Trying to crank out a 270 to a swoop wouldn't be "pushing" the envelope for me, it would be blasting a big hole in it.

This! If we imagine the "envelop" as a bubble filled with all a perskn's capabilities, pushing it would indeed be incrimentally expanding it. Your example of a 16yo driving 100mph (well, most people on the road, in fac...) would be leaping all the way outbof the envelop.

For me, maybe a downwind landing in a 5-10mph breeze would be as far into the envelop as I could safely lean (by "safel" I mean without broken bones, but perhaps not without a few scrapes and dents in my legs and pride :P ). Trying to do Anything at all to gain speed for the final approach would indeed be, as you say, "dumb."

for someone who has successfully performed their last 100 swoops with 360-degree turns, adding another 90 degrees would be pushing their envelop, but I would also think they'd have the experience to know their limits and calculate the risks, which would not make it "dumb."


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 30, 2012, 1:19 PM
Post #54 of 56 (277 views)
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Re: [SkyPiggie] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
I voted that it is pushing the envelop, but I do NOT think that is necessarily a bad thing. Humans finding ways to do anything we never thought we could is rarely a bad thing, in my opinion.

People dieing attempting dumb things is not bad? Please explain.

I'd like to pick the goofy extreme semantic interpretation of the comment and argue against it for $500 please, Alex.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 30, 2012, 1:21 PM
Post #55 of 56 (274 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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I guess it depends on how you define "pushing the envelope."


Quote:
I understand it as carefully, incrementally and with a great deal of calculation, doing things at the edge of your current abilities. Or the capabilities of the equipment you are using. It is shaving the error margin thinner one slice at a time.

Oh Yeah? I want to define it as requiring all newbies to get a double digit square foot canopy on the 2nd jump off of AFF status and whipping out 720's at 900 feet while the local gun club shoots at the swooper if he actually makes it to final - pre-training being only a couple pictures of someone landing and a good talking to from the guy that survived it twice one time. Now that I've defined pushing the envelope in swooping, I'm a position of opposition to it and will argue against it. though I will lobby for the event for the olympics, or at least Japanese reality TV

YMMV


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 30, 2012, 1:27 PM)


PiLFy  (A License)

Jul 30, 2012, 4:00 PM
Post #56 of 56 (248 views)
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Re: [SkyPiggie] Is swooping pushing the envelope? [In reply to] Can't Post

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Right. Therefore you can't make a blanket statement that pushing the envelope is a good thing. It depends upon who is doing the pushing and whether or not they are properly prepared to do so.

I never said that. I doubt anyone in this thread would advocate a Newbie trying swooping. Your post looked like a blanket statement. So long as you don't have a problem w/qualified jumpers choosing for themselves. We're agreed.



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