Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Model's Propeller Accident

 

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airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 22, 2012, 2:35 AM
Post #151 of 161 (732 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I say it should but it doesn't because it isn't drilled into people often enough.

Its standard at our DZ to tell everyone about the dangers of props....except we don't cal it a prop.

Its called a "mincer".....and people really GET that.

Having been a safety guy at an industrial manufacturing place I take it a step further and warn people about walking behind the blowin' spinner without eye protection. Wink


JasonYergin  (C 40641)

Apr 22, 2012, 3:17 AM
Post #152 of 161 (729 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess you could call it a powered guillotine, or just guillotine...

I don't know. Maybe if you insuated this thing could easily take someones head off the point would hit home a little more.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 22, 2012, 8:56 AM
Post #153 of 161 (712 views)
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Re: [JasonYergin] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

We don't call it anything other than a propeller. Everyone knows what a propeller is, but some people may not figure out what a "mincer" is.

We do have a sign that says "caution - propellers rip off heads."


lawrocket  (Student)

Apr 22, 2012, 2:09 PM
Post #154 of 161 (699 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>What did the pilot have to gain by not shutting down before he let the PAX
>exit. A little time, less wear and tear on the starter and battery. What did
>he have to lose by not shutting down ,a lot of sleepless nights.

Agreed. But keep in mind that all those things apply to skydivers - and we've had skydivers struck by props - and we still load hot.

I find there to be a difference between skydivers loading behind a spinning prop in the daytime and a single unescorted indiviaul at night around a moving prop. It's a matter of cognizance of risk. Sure, we have ignorant tandems getting on and off - and escorted every step. Skydivers unescorted who are pretty damned knowledgeable about staying the hell clear of that spnning slicer.

I know my thinking is pretty subjective. I simply look at what cognizance people have of the respective risks involved. Tandems spend time beforehand watching Bill Booth tell them about how dangerous it is, then get videoed telling the camera about how they understand they will die doing this, etc.

Someone walking into a prop? Nope. Some pilot looking for a piece of ass from some model ended up with a piece of arm instead.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 22, 2012, 3:41 PM
Post #155 of 161 (684 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Everyone knows what a propeller is, but some people may not figure out what a "mincer" is.

Every one in NZ knows what a mincer is. The foreigners soon catch on.....

For the uninitiated, a mincer is what you use to make mince = ground beef = hamburger meat....


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 22, 2012, 5:06 PM
Post #156 of 161 (674 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>I find there to be a difference between skydivers loading behind a
>spinning prop in the daytime and a single unescorted indiviaul at night
>around a moving prop. It's a matter of cognizance of risk.

I agree. However, because we do not have the access controls that airports do, non-skydivers often end up around the aircraft as well. And of course tandem passengers do not learn much about aircraft safety during their 10 minute ground instruction other than "wait for your instructor." Which is why even skydiving aircraft loading skydivers have had prop vs person accidents.

But we still load hot. Why? For a lot of reasons that have to do with convenience and saving a buck and nothing to do with safety. "It's faster." "It's easier on the engines." We load hot because we want to save a minute or two; hard to condemn someone else for doing the same.

>Some pilot looking for a piece of ass from some model ended up with a
>piece of arm instead.

================
Estonian Skydiver Killed by Spinning Aircraft Propeller

Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 1:50:52 PM by scottdeus12

TALLINN, Estonia Authorities say a skydiver was killed when she walked into a spinning aircraft propeller at an airfield in Estonia.
================

And some DZO was looking for a piece of ass ended up with a lot of pieces of a skydiver instead. But still we are OK with hot loading.


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 22, 2012, 5:20 PM
Post #157 of 161 (669 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with what you said Bill, and to add...

The pilot in question may not have been use to giving sightseeing rides, IIRC he was a CFI and if so the stay away from the spinner thing would be gone over in great detail with his students.

Could be he was just in the groove of thinking the person getting out had some understanding of the procedure.

Why people do what they do sometimes is baffling, At Oshkosh in the early 80's I saw a woman pilot stick both hands into a spinning Cessna prop that was at idle.

I was ten feet away and couldn't believe my eyes, took both hands off at the wrist.


lawrocket  (Student)

Apr 23, 2012, 8:19 AM
Post #158 of 161 (634 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We load hot because we want to save a minute or two; hard to condemn someone else for doing the same.

I understand totally, Bill. And if there were facts that came out that she was thoroughly briefed and did not follow the procedure then my position will change. Part of me is operating off of the assumption that she wasn't briefed about it.

I know my position draws a line in the sand. I'm not coming to it from a legal standpoint (the risk v. utility discussion that you opened) but from a completely subjective standpoint that is "this is what I think."


Krip  (Student)

Apr 23, 2012, 10:06 AM
Post #159 of 161 (614 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why people do what they do sometimes is baffling, At Oshkosh in the early 80's I saw a woman pilot stick both hands into a spinning Cessna prop that was at idle.

I was ten feet away and couldn't believe my eyes, took both hands off at the wrist.

Hi Mr T

We used to do the engine starts on the C-130's looking headon into the props.

Sometime with the sun behind the props there was some kind of a "strobe effect" strange feeling almost like we were being hypnotizedCrazy

On the 130's we always tried to load everything thru the rear end, hot or cold and watched the pax like a hawk.

Hot loading thru the front door definately we used our head set cord as a barrier to prevent the pax from turning into the props.

Thanks for the thread. Gotta go eat breakfestUnsure

Hopefully the DZ's won't have a prop strike happen for a very long timeUnimpressed


BigBUG  (D License)

Apr 24, 2012, 2:31 AM
Post #160 of 161 (580 views)
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Re: [Krip] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

About experience and habits - there are two pretty common versions of Russian MIL-8 helicopter: Mi-8MT and Mi-8MTV.

One day I have seen very experienced aircraft engineer (Afghan War veteran) when he was doing his pre-flight check and walking counterclockwise around the bird, which was already powered up and spinning; he was saved by another guy just seconds before he walks into tail rotor.

The thing was that during last few month he flew Mi 8MT which has right-side tail rotor; MTV version has it on a left side...

He surely knows what he was doing and he surely was aware of the danger - but the outcome could be fatal. Habits are hard to beat.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Apr 27, 2012, 10:28 AM
Post #161 of 161 (487 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Squeak, dictionary time.

.....

forgot: past participle, past tense of forget (Verb)
(1) Fail to remember.
(2) Inadvertently neglect to attend to, do, or mention something: "she forgot to lock her door"; "I'm sorry, I just forgot".

.....

It would seem to me, that there's some overlap between negligence and forgetfulness. When in a court of law, the word "negligence" vs "forgetfulness" can be debated, but the fact that debate happens show what a fine line there is. I think my spouse (training as a paralegal) would be able to answer this better. There's a batch of words (forgetfulness, inconsideration, negligence, etc) that can become quite controversial without clearly defining everything.

Now, we can define the specifics of "forget":
Does "forget" refer to the action of moment in time, or does "forget" refer to the training about how to pull? Maybe Squeak is talking about the latter, and billyvon is talking about the former?

Of course, Squeak, I agree with you that you DO NOT "forget" your training of pull. You're absolutely right. But, agreeing with Billyvon and others too, there are people who "forgot" to pull at the RIGHT time, and have been saved by the Cypres. Forgetting to lock a door because you were focussed on recovering from tripping on the stairs. Forgetting to pull a parachute at the correct time because you were focussed on a tumble. Same thing about the momentary forgetfulness.

Then, if this was brought into court, I'm sure a lawyer (lawrocket?) would be happy to chime in. Context is very important in law.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Apr 27, 2012, 10:29 AM)


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