Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Model's Propeller Accident

 

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Krip  (Student)

Apr 2, 2012, 9:01 PM
Post #101 of 168 (1588 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>However, you can't blame everyone else (i.e. lawsuit) for your own acts of stupidity.

Agreed there.

Danny Page got hit in the head with the propeller of his own airplane once when he was trying to prop start it. It fucked him up. Should he have sued himself? I'm just asking.

Hi One

If Danny had the right insurance coverage and his company refused to pay. Shocked

Than he would have to sue his insurace company. To collect the coverage he had paid for.Unsure

Kind of like the VA: Deny, Delay, until they DieMad

History of insurance: Long but there's a indexWink
http://en.wikipedia.org/...History_of_insurance


(This post was edited by Krip on Apr 2, 2012, 9:05 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 2, 2012, 11:06 PM
Post #102 of 168 (1575 views)
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Re: [toolbox] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>So you do not believe that the spinning propeller on the airplane would be
>considered common knowlege in our modern 21st century society here in
>the USA.

Jet engines are common here in the USA. But I still bet most people would be more comfortable in front of one than behind one. Knowing something exists does not equal knowing how to be safe around something.

You've posted how stupid such people are several times, as if intelligence was a defense against making a mistake. It's not. People walk into props for a multitude of reasons, and not all of them were "they were just too stupid to realize the prop was there." That's why working around an aircraft is not the same as working around a car.


toolbox  (D 18778)

Apr 3, 2012, 12:23 AM
Post #103 of 168 (1567 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

 
If you are around something that can kill you,it would be smart to know where you are in relation to it at all times.
As far as being stupid,stupid is as stupid does.
I know,I've been guilty of being stupid,usually when booze was involved,but not always.
How about you?
Remember to check your 6.
yawn................................snore.................................................
scratching sound...............snore.....................


(This post was edited by toolbox on Apr 3, 2012, 12:32 AM)


dorbie

Apr 17, 2012, 1:16 PM
Post #104 of 168 (1463 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>So you do not believe that the spinning propeller on the airplane would be
>considered common knowlege in our modern 21st century society here in
>the USA.

Jet engines are common here in the USA. But I still bet most people would be more comfortable in front of one than behind one. Knowing something exists does not equal knowing how to be safe around something.

You've posted how stupid such people are several times, as if intelligence was a defense against making a mistake. It's not. People walk into props for a multitude of reasons, and not all of them were "they were just too stupid to realize the prop was there." That's why working around an aircraft is not the same as working around a car.

The biggest problem with the "stupid" theory is it implies that it can never happen to someone as smart as the poster, making it just that little bit more likely that it will.

Strolling into a propeller can happen to you, it's not a function of intelligence. This isn't FAILblog where everyone else is an idiot. If you want to learn to be safer then consider yourself human with human failings who could be next in line for a write-up here in incidents (or safety and training).


(This post was edited by dorbie on Apr 17, 2012, 1:18 PM)


TheCaptain  (D License)

Apr 17, 2012, 2:01 PM
Post #105 of 168 (1439 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Anytime a person is around machinery of any kind weather it is a car, plane, tractor, combine, forklift, any automated machinery, or manual machinery that person needs to respect it or they could end up hurt. Yes, I would consider a person not smart for running into a running propeller partly because they should know better and because anytime you are around machines you need to be careful period. Yes, skydivers have it drilled into them to stay away from the front of the plane and always approach one from behind but if any of us actually need to hear that to really know that maybe they should pick another sport. Most every guy I know has worked on a car with the motor running at one point or another but none have stuck their hand into the belts or the fan(why) because they are smarter than that kind of action(not stupid).


toolbox  (D 18778)

Apr 18, 2012, 12:31 PM
Post #106 of 168 (1360 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Stupid is as stupid doesLaugh
Nobody cares how good or smart you were,if you do something stupid they will call you stupid.
So stay alert, and pay attention, and try not to do anything stupid.
I do not consider myself above average in intelligence by any measure.
I have seen people who were considered by many to be very smart and successful,do some really stupid stuff.
When a smart person does something stupid are we suppose to say"wow they are so smart for doing that,because they are really a smart person"?


(This post was edited by toolbox on Apr 18, 2012, 12:33 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 18, 2012, 9:11 PM
Post #107 of 168 (1306 views)
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Re: [toolbox] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>When a smart person does something stupid are we suppose to say"wow
>they are so smart for doing that,because they are really a smart person"?

Nope! Nor should you say "wow, that was really stupid, I'll never do anything that stupid" (which is what a LOT of skydivers say after incidents like this.) The best mindset is "wow, a heads up woman walked into a prop. I'm heads up - that could happen to _me_. I better be more careful."

(And please note that if you want to say "it was a stupid thing to do" that's fine - because it is indeed a stupid thing to do. As long as we recognize that even smart people do stupid things, we can learn from incidents like this one.)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 18, 2012, 9:21 PM
Post #108 of 168 (1303 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nope! Nor should you say "wow, that was really stupid, I'll never do anything that stupid" (which is what a LOT of skydivers say after incidents like this.) The best mindset is "wow, a heads up woman walked into a prop. I'm heads up - that could happen to _me_. I better be more careful."

I "heads up" persons would think twice about walking towards the business end of a plane. This was NOT a "heads up" person.


(This post was edited by Squeak on Apr 18, 2012, 9:22 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 18, 2012, 9:42 PM
Post #109 of 168 (1295 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>I "heads up" persons would think twice about walking towards the business
>end of a plane. This was NOT a "heads up" person.

And a heads up person would never forget to pull. And a heads up person would never pull the wrong handle under stress. But still, they sometimes do.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 18, 2012, 9:46 PM
Post #110 of 168 (1294 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I "heads up" persons would think twice about walking towards the business
>end of a plane. This was NOT a "heads up" person.

And a heads up person would never forget to pull. And a heads up person would never pull the wrong handle under stress. But still, they sometimes do.
you're clutching at straws, and generally wrong.

"heads up" people DONT forget to pull. and people respond to stress in different ways.

Last i checked walking off of a plane was not particularly high on the stress meter.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 18, 2012, 9:59 PM
Post #111 of 168 (1289 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This was NOT a "heads up" person.

Most people are not. The majority are either average or below average, with only the upper thrid really being 'heads up'.

Knowing that being 'heads up' is not a prerequisite for ridnig in a plane, you can't fault this girl for being who she is and ending up in an unfamiliar environment.

Is it common sense not to walk into a prop? Yes. Is it common sense to an 'average' person where that prop is when it's dark and she hasn't been trained how to conduct yourself on the ramp of an airport? Not so much, as this case indicates.

Let's face it, 99% of the US has been 'sanitized' for our protection. There are signs, and warnings, markings on curbs, stairs and walkways making sure people don't get hurt. The vast majority of machinery people come into contact with has no external moving parts that present a snag or pinch hazzard, all of those are kept under a protective cover.

I work in a machine shop enviroment from time to time, I also work on motorcycles and with power tools almost every day. I understand from these experiences how to conduct myself around machinery with regards to personal safety.

The girl who walked into the prop was a model. When do you suspect was the last time she ran a hydraulic press, or turned some stock down on a lathe? The answer is never, and with no experience around machinery, and no training with regards to aircraft, she made a mistake that others (who were trained as such) have made in the past. They get focused on one thing and walk right through the invisible prop arc. Let's face it, you can stand 6 inches from the prop or 6 feet from the prop, and it all feels and sounds about the same. It's not until you make contact does it become apparent that you're too close. The prop wash doesn't feel all that different between climbing out of the cabin, and walking right up to it.

She may very well have been dumb, but she was absolutely in a new-to-her, very dangerous envorinment with no training or direct supervision. Even a genuis could have made the same mistake.


toolbox  (D 18778)

Apr 18, 2012, 11:09 PM
Post #112 of 168 (1276 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

So it is not stupid if a genius walks into a spinning prop?
You can forget to pull while being heads up?
So the guy who put honey on his baby so he could film the 500+pound bear licking it off in yellowstone park was not being stupid because he was not used to being around bears?
Interesting.Tongue


(This post was edited by toolbox on Apr 18, 2012, 11:11 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 18, 2012, 11:30 PM
Post #113 of 168 (1272 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>"heads up" people DONT forget to pull.

That's the thing. Sometimes even the best skydivers on the planet forget to pull, or pull the wrong handle. That's why they have AAD's - and why sometimes those AAD's save the best of the best.

And that's why even then, some of them die.

If you think that there are people heads up enough to never make a fatal mistake in this sport you may be in for a rude awakening someday.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 19, 2012, 12:15 AM
Post #114 of 168 (1264 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>"heads up" people DONT forget to pull.

That's the thing. Sometimes even the best skydivers on the planet forget to pull, or pull the wrong handle. That's why they have AAD's - and why sometimes those AAD's save the best of the best.

And that's why even then, some of them die.

If you think that there are people heads up enough to never make a fatal mistake in this sport you may be in for a rude awakening someday.

dude seriously, name ONE person who will tell you that they FORGOT to pull.
get an act that actually pans out will you.

to Dave Lepka, Granted the model may not be mechanically minded, but I doubt that she would intentionally stick her hand in a spinning blender. if she has enough nous to not do that she should also know that the spinning end of a plane is dangerous.


(This post was edited by Squeak on Apr 19, 2012, 1:05 AM)


toolbox  (D 18778)

Apr 19, 2012, 12:53 AM
Post #115 of 168 (1254 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Right


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 19, 2012, 11:08 AM
Post #116 of 168 (1206 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>dude seriously, name ONE person who will tell you that they FORGOT to pull.

Since many of them are dead it would be hard to get them to say anything.

But of the people who survived -

The two people at Quincy 1994 that were on the first helicopter load after the storm on Wednesday. Both forgot to pull. Cypres saved both of them. Kirlin was there within 30 seconds in a golf cart to kick them both out. I watched it all from 1000 feet away.

The four way team that had all four of their dytters reset by circling at 13000 for 20 minutes. Four cypres saves. All were "waiting for the beep."

Or if you don't believe them go to the CYPRES save website and see for yourself. Here are two:

==============================
20.July 2000
Alabama, USA
Expert CYPRES
A jumper was working on head down and forgot to pull his main. The CYPRES fired
at 750 ft.

16. February 1997
Zwartberg, Belgium
Expert CYPRES
After a solo jump from 6500 ft. a skydiver couldn't find his ripcord, went unstable
and tried to become stable again. Due to these procedures he forgot altitude and
time. CYPRES activated his reserve.
====================


(This post was edited by billvon on Apr 19, 2012, 11:10 AM)


dorbie

Apr 19, 2012, 4:26 PM
Post #117 of 168 (1176 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
dude seriously, name ONE person who will tell you that they FORGOT to pull.
get an act that actually pans out will you.

Surely you can't be serious?

How about a 4-way that forgot to pull:

http://www.skypole.ru/.../HTMLs/sp_accid.html

Or this video of a 2-way where one forgot and the only reason the other pulled creating a 2 out was he saw the AAD deployment of his buddy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX9qVLTD4Xo


Snowwhite

Apr 19, 2012, 6:18 PM
Post #118 of 168 (1146 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

 

If you think that there are people heads up enough to never make a fatal mistake in this sport you may be in for a rude awakening someday.
dude seriously, name ONE person who will tell you that they FORGOT to pull.
get an act that actually pans out will you.

I have been there when they scraped the remains off of the runway, while another plane is waiting to dump the next load.

More than one, unfortunately...


Krip  (Student)

Apr 19, 2012, 6:19 PM
Post #119 of 168 (1146 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Second or fourth hand info:

Turbo went to a boogie and returned to Home DZ with some jumpers onboard.

One Jumper had to pea really bad after the long fltFrown The engines were shut down but the props were still "windmilling"

Jumper made a B line for the bathroom and got hit upside the head by the windmilling prop.Unsure

Not sure if the prop Knocked the piss out of them but the TBI was a life changeing experiencePirate

If it can happen it willFrown


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 19, 2012, 6:35 PM
Post #120 of 168 (1141 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

NONE of that is FORGETTING to pulls

FFS when did negligence become a synonym for Forgetting.

Experienced jumpers DO NOT FORGET to pull.
It's not like their AAD goes of and they realise, oh Fuck that's right I was supposed to pull something, now what was that.


Back to the other misuse of words in a word based media.

"HEADS UP" people, do not blow past their opening heights either. If you do blow past it, by definition you are NOT "heads up' about it.


People fuck up, people make mistakes people get complacent.


toolbox  (D 18778)

Apr 19, 2012, 6:43 PM
Post #121 of 168 (1142 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

<How about the 4-way that forgot to pull:

I've seen alot of AAD saves in the last 20 years,and none were because the skydivers were incapacitated.
And no matter how you try to rationalize being saved by an AAD because you lost awareness,it still sounds pretty stupid.
The most important thing to do on any skydive is to pull,pull on time,pull on time stable if possible.You have to pull to live!
The only acceptable reason for not pulling on time is if you are incapacitated in someway.
If you have your ass saved by the AAD because you forgot where you were,you are a dumbass.
I am not saying it could never happen to me,but it is still very stupid forgetting to pull and I sure would feel like a dumbass if I put myself there.
I would have to seriously think about whether I should continue skydiving if I forgot to pull (if I survived).
I've felt dumb enough the 8 times I've landed out and 2 of those were emergency exits and 3 were reserve rides.
I would have to say forgetting to pull is probably more stupid than walking into a spinning prop.
And relying on your audible alone was always considered a bad idea.Has this philosophy changed now?Should we never look at our altimeter or the ground anymore?
Just because a 4-way team forgets to pull doesn't make it less stupid.
Why are so many people trying to defend stupid acts?


(This post was edited by toolbox on Apr 19, 2012, 6:45 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Apr 19, 2012, 6:51 PM
Post #122 of 168 (1137 views)
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Re: [toolbox] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I've seen alot of AAD saves in the last 20 years,and none were because the skydivers were incapacitated.
And no matter how you try to rationalize being saved by an AAD because you lost awareness,it still sounds pretty stupid.
The most important thing to do on any skydive is to pull,pull on time,pull on time stable if possible.You have to pull to live!

I tend to regard successful AAD fires as a bounce that didn't happen. The events leading up to that point need careful evaluation and EFFECTIVE corrective action should be taken.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 19, 2012, 9:20 PM
Post #123 of 168 (1108 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>NONE of that is FORGETTING to pulls

"A jumper was working on head down and forgot to pull his main. The CYPRES fired at 750 ft."

And the best way to make sure it happens to you is to tell yourself it can't.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Apr 19, 2012, 9:40 PM
Post #124 of 168 (1106 views)
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Re: [billvon] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>NONE of that is FORGETTING to pulls

"A jumper was working on head down and forgot to pull his main. The CYPRES fired at 750 ft."

And the best way to make sure it happens to you is to tell yourself it can't.
It's like trying to teach ENGLISH to a rockCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazyCrazy they did NOT fucking FORGET. That fact that they didn't do it is irrelevant, they didn't forget to do it.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 19, 2012, 11:12 PM
Post #125 of 168 (1092 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Model's Propeller Accident [In reply to] Can't Post

>they did NOT fucking FORGET.

They were in freefall. They didn't pull because they were doing something else and pulling apparently slipped their minds. Play all the word games you want; they are alive today because their Cypres, fortunately, DID remember to pull. Many people have not been so lucky.


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